上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 204

[–]RhovarkTechnocracy is just fascism with scientists [スコア非表示]  (53子コメント)

Transgenderism is a controversial issue that society hasn't made its mind up about yet. The science behind it is murky and there are conflicting studies. So it shouldn't be taught to children. I doubt they're going to show them studies showing the higher suicide rate of post-op trans people too.

This is what people mean when they say things like cultural marxism and political correctness. Teaching progressive politics to children as fact.

[–]EtchyTWA [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Not only a controversal issue, its an incredibly niche one.

Its like teaching kids about the importance of dealing with being albino or having two thumbs on each hand or something for fucks sake. An utter waste of resources.

[–]shortandstout12345 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yep, its a totally disproportionate response to very little. Its a passing fashion to bend over backwards to pander to any minority group.

Fine, sell some copies of the guardian to well meaning man children with this self righteous I'm so open minded shit if you like, but introducing extreme minority irrelevant stuff like this to the classroom is taking the piss ; using kids as soundboards for extreme self righteous 'virtue signalling' is pretty fucked up. Poor little buggers. THATS RIGHT I ASSUMED THEIR HEIGHT! NOW FUCK OFF!

[–]aeidiChristmas flair [スコア非表示]  (37子コメント)

I doubt they're going to show them studies showing the higher suicide rate of post-op trans people too.

Just wondering, but is this compared to pre-op trans people or to the general public?

[–]Elmer_Woody [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

It can be as high as 70% I think. 40% is average.

High suicide risk homosexuals have an attempt rate of about 30%

[–]Gnorris [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What's the rate in high suicide risk heteros?

[–]eeeking [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

It can be as high as 70% I think.

I seriously doubt that number. Post a link to a reputable source that indicate a 70% suicide rate for post-op transgender people.

[–]IanCalbre-verb-er [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Here are some figures I found:

Relative to the general population, attempts are about 5 times more likely and deaths from suicide are 20 times more likely.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

The rates here don't support an absolute 70% death by suicide, due to the size of some of the groups (>100 people) and deaths in the single figures. Attempts I'm not sure though, I couldn't see a figure here but haven't looked around too much.


Not sure of the pre/post difference, but the 40% attempt rate seems about right:

Suicide attempts among trans men (46%) and trans women (42%)

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

[–]eeeking [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If you actually examine the data in that paper here, the suicide rate was 2.7 per 1,000 person-years, which is nothing near 70%. Deaths from cancer (neoplasms) was similar at 2.2 per 1,000 person-years; would you suggest that gender reassignment causes cancer?

[–]IanCalbre-verb-er [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Why do you think I'm suggesting anything? I just tried to find some sources for the rates and info in general.

I think you also may be hitting on a difference in what you mean by "suicide rate" and what the other person meant. They might be talking about attempts and you about deaths.

Deaths from cancer (neoplasms) was similar at 2.2 per 1,000 person-years; would you suggest that gender reassignment causes cancer?

The rate of a single side of this is rather irrelevant. You need to compare the rates against the control group.

[–]eeeking [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Well, for one, the data refutes the statement above, control group or not. There is a control group in that table, which does have lower rates of every adverse incident, including cancer, heart disease, accidents, violent crime, and suicide attempts. The conclusion one has to reach is that those who undergo gender reassignment are less healthy than controls, likely for reasons unrelated to the reassignment.

[–]IanCalbre-verb-er [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, for one, the data refutes the statement above,

I did say this:

The rates here don't support an absolute 70% death by suicide

I'm going to take a stab that someone has taken this data and an average life expectancy and tried to get a rate from it. I'm not sure what a 7.9/1000 years becomes as a rate assumed over a lifetime. 40% wouldn't be surprising though, which comes up in the other report.

cancer, heart disease

These two do have overlapping confidence intervals though, making the statement that they're linked significantly less strong.

[–]RhovarkTechnocracy is just fascism with scientists [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Pre-op. But there are conflicting studies so it's not certain, WHICH IS WHY THIS SHIT SHOULD BE KEPT AWAY FROM KIDS.

Edit: I can't find it, I remember seeing the study though, but I guess I can't expect you to take my word for it. The point is that there are conflicting studies and teaching this to kids as though it's fact is wrong.

[–]blue_dicecultural marxist as a pejorative [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

show the study mate.

[–]RhovarkTechnocracy is just fascism with scientists [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Sorry I was out. I was looking at it a couple of months ago, I'm currently looking for it, I definitely remember looking at it though, so I'll try and find it.

Edit: I can't find it, I remember seeing the study though, but I guess I can't expect you to take my word for it. The point is that there are conflicting studies and teaching this to kids as though it's fact is wrong.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Pre-op.

Please, feel free to show us the peer-reviewed study that shows that post-op trans people have a higher suicide rate than pre-op trans people.

But there are conflicting studies so it's not certain, WHICH IS WHY THIS SHIT SHOULD BE KEPT AWAY FROM KIDS.

This is such weasley bullshit. We know what the best treatment for gender dysphoria is. It's transition. And we know that it's extremely effective, with very high rates of satisfaction post-transition. We also know how devastating gender dysphoria can be when it's left untreated by transition, and that it often results in death.

[–]WhoAmI__NobodyKnows [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

You are trans aren't you?

Here's a tip nobody here is attacking you, so stop taking things so personally.

[–]Sparkle_Penis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's called empathy. Try it. It might suit you.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

You are trans aren't you?

Nope.

Believe it or not it's possible to empathise with and advocate for a marginalised group without being a member of that group yourself.

[–]WhoAmI__NobodyKnows [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Usually not with such vitriol.

[–]MimesAreShitesocial democrat | fuck fptp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

maybe if you only view politics through a lens of self-interest.

[–]SongOTheGolgiBoatmenWould make Socrates drink hemlock [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Bollocks. I've only ever seen one study cited for this fact and it's in relation to the general public. Ben Shapiro told the same lie.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

To the general public. Transphobes love to disingenuously cite a 2011 Swedish study that shows that post-transition trans people have a higher suicide rate than the general population as evidence that transition is bad for trans people.

You can read what the author of the study says about that interpretation here:

Williams: Before I contacted you for this interview, were you aware of the way your work was being misrepresented?

Dhejne: Yes! It’s very frustrating! I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences. The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans health care and impact systems of anti-trans oppression.

Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria.

...

Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more inline with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.

It's particularly disgusting that transphobes take a study that finds that the "crushing social oppression" that trans people face at the hands of those very same transphobes plays a role in them still having a higher suicide rate post-transition and twist it to try and argue that the only thing that's known to actually and consistently help trans people - i.e. transition - is somehow to blame.

[–]WhoAmI__NobodyKnows [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Someone disagreeing with you is not automatically a transphobe you bigot.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

They aren't a transphobe because they disagree with me, they're a transphobe because they're lying to try and argue that transition is bad for trans people.

[–]WhoAmI__NobodyKnows [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That's not tranphobia.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Making up lies to argue that kids shouldn't know about trans people isn't transphobic?

Okay then.

Making up lies to argue that kids shouldn't know about gay people presumably wouldn't be homophobic either?

[–]yer-what [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

So "transphobes" read and interpret the data as presented in the study, and draw their own conclusions.

As with most forms of independent thought this is highly discouraged. Let's instead just read the blog post where the activist from "transadvocate.com" harangues the author into recanting what the study plainly demonstrates.

It's particularly disgusting that transphobes take a study that finds that the "crushing social oppression" that trans people face at the hands of those very same transphobes plays a role in them still having a higher suicide rate post-transition and twist it to try and argue that the only thing that's known to actually and consistently help trans people - i.e. transition - is somehow to blame.

I think it's disgusting that transactivists constantly try to deny that being trans is a serious mental illness, and their woes are all down to society for being 'transphobic'. They are like the nutters who preach that cancer isn't a real illness, and it's all down to toxins from processed foods...

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

So "transphobes" read and interpret the data as presented in the study, and draw their own conclusions.

No, they dishonestly misrepresent the data from that study as showing something that it doesn't show.

That study does not show that post-transition trans people have a higher suicide rate than pre-transition trans people. It shows that post-transition trans people still have a higher mortality rate, including suicide, than non-trans people.

Trying to argue that this shows that transition is bad for trans people is like trying to argue that chemo is bad for people with cancer because they still have a higher mortality rate than people who have never had cancer.

It's a lie.

As with most forms of independent thought this is highly discouraged. Let's instead just read the blog post where the activist from "transadvocate.com" harangues the author into recanting what the study plainly demonstrates.

First question:

Williams: How did you first hear about trans people and when was it that you first met a trans person?

Second question:

Williams: Would you please talk about how you became interested in researching trans health outcomes?

Third question:

Williams: Before I contacted you for this interview, were you aware of the way your work was being misrepresented?

Answer:

Dhejne: Yes! It’s very frustrating! I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences. The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans health care and impact systems of anti-trans oppression.

Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria.

"harangues"

[–]yer-what [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

The study very clearly shows (and concludes) that trans people have issues that can't be solved through the mutilation of their genitals.

Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Nobody is trying to argue that it's not a treatment, just that it's not a very good treatment. I'd be interested to see studies on a type of therapy that doesn't encourage people to hate their bodies. If such a thing weren't taboo in the current climate.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The study very clearly shows (and concludes) that trans people have issues that can't be solved through the mutilation of their genitals.

Yes, but not issues related to gender dysphoria. As a transition for gender dysphoria transition is effective and alleviates it. Trans people face other issues largely relating to their treatment by society that require follow-up help.

I'd be interested to see studies on a type of therapy that doesn't encourage people to hate their bodies.

This is a vile and intellectually dishonest characterisation of transition, but I'm hardly surprised. Transition does not encourage people to hate their bodies - quite the opposite, in fact. Pre-transition trans people tend to find their bodies distressing - extremely distressing in some - whereas post-transition trans people tend to be satisfied with their bodies.

As a study that I've already linked to in this thread finds, transition is associated with significant improvements in quality of life:

80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria (95% CI = 68–89%; 8 studies; I2 = 82%); 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms (95% CI = 56–94%; 7 studies; I2 = 86%); 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life (95% CI = 72–88%; 16 studies; I2 = 78%); and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function (95% CI = 60–81%; 15 studies; I2 = 78%).

And another study that I've already linked to finds that transition is associated with significant improvements in mental health generally:

SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)

Yet another study here looks more closely at things like self-image and finds that 87.4% of post-transition trans women studied are either 'satisfied' or 'very satisfied' with their appearance. There are others too. The benefit of transition in terms of quality of life generally and body satisfaction specifically has been demonstrated.

[–]Masri788It could be worse, we could be on fire too. [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

yup. people love to misrepresent science to justify whatever they want for example:

  1. Trans people have high suicide ergo they should be stopped (quoted study is about how their surrounding culture causes them to commit suicide)

  2. The utopia experiment with rats shows that overpopulaiton is the true enemy thus migration and refugees should all be stopped (the dead rats in the study were not removed, rats showed all the antisocial/aggressive behaviour when they were forced to live within the 3 inches of space between the glass ceiling and the bodies of all the past generations)

  3. Wolves have alpha and beta males ergo humans need to be alphas to mate (that behaviour is only seen in wolves that grow up and live in confinement, in nature a pack is mother,father and children, the man who published the original study has been spending the rest of his life trying to dispel the misconception.

All of this is both infuriating and harmful to society. And indicative of a lot of problems we need to fix.

[–]WhoAmI__NobodyKnows [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Have you ever actually spoken to a normal human?

[–]Masri788It could be worse, we could be on fire too. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

doesn't look like anything to me.

edit: in all seriousness you would be surprised with the things people will say on the internet.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What's a 'normal human' to you?

[–]DieDungeon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm still surprised by how quickly people are trying to make it accepted.

[–]alibixmuscular liberal [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Is it that murky? I saved the following from a comment on the same issue in a different thread:

Everyone has a gender identity, but most of the time it matches their external appearance perfectly. When it doesn't, that person is described as "trans".

Trans people don't change their genders. Their gender identity already exists, that's something you're born with. Trans people just change their lives to better match it. This often includes both social and physical changes. Trans people also have all the variation in sexual orientation that cisgender (ie, non-trans) people do. A trans woman may be lesbian, a trans man may be gay.

For how gender identity forms, and why some people's gender identity doesn't match their external appearance, that's not entirely understood. But it does appear to be strongly influenced by hormone levels during gestation, which shape the neurological structures of one's brain.

Basically, all fetuses start out physically the same - and that base form is essentially female. Most of the time, if a Y chromosome is present it will be activated by testosterone in the mother's blood. It will then cause the fetal gonads to develop into testes, which then flood the system with testosterone that cause the cascade of changes turning a female fetus into a male infant. And most of the time, if no y chromosome is present these changes won't take place and the fetus will develop into a female infant.

But there are a lot of things that can cause development to go off-script. Hormone variations are one of them. If hormone levels are atypical early in gestation, that can affect external development and the infant may be born visibly intersex. If hormone levels are atypical later in gestation, when the body is basically done but the central nervous system is forming, it can affect neurological development.

The brain is wired to recognize one's body. That's why an infant can pull their arm away from painful stimuli long before they consciously know what an "arm" is. They don't have to learn that their arm is theirs, that knowledge came hard-wired.

Sexually specific aspects of one's anatomy are part of this neurological map too. Vastly oversimplified, a brain that grows under hormonal conditions more typical to a female fetus is going to be wired to expect and control a female body, and a brain grown under conditions typical to a male fetus will be wired for a male body, even if the body it's actually in doesn't match.

When that happens, it is one hell of a mindfuck. This is not a mental illness; the brain in question is working perfectly normally, it's just being subjected to extraordinarily disturbing circumstances. Transition fixes those circumstances and alleviates the mindfuck.


Citations on the neurological science of gender identity:

An overview from New Scientist

An overview from MedScape

Prenatal testosterone and gender-related behaviour - Melissa Hines, Department of Psychology, City University, Northampton Square, London

Prenatal and postnatal hormone effects on the human brain and cognition - Bonnie Auyeung, Michael V. Lombardo, & Simon Baron-Cohen, Dept. of Psychiatry, University of Cambridge

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation - D. F. Swaab, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, Amsterdam

A spreadsheet with links to many articles about gender identity and the brain.

Here are more


Citations on the incredible benefit transition has to the psychological and emotional health and functionality of trans people:

See /u/Chel_of_the_sea's post here


Citations on transition as the only effective and appropriate medical response to gender dysphoria, as recognized by every major US and world medical and psychiatric authority:

Here is the American Psychiatric Association's policy statement regarding the necessity and efficacy of transition as the appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria. More information from the APA here.

Here is a resolution from the American Medical Association on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage.

Here is a similar resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Here is one from the National Association of Social Workers.

Here are the treatment guidelines from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and here are guidelines from the NHS. More from the NHS here.

[–]yer-what [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

At first he says

If you identify as a girl, assigned female at birth, and you like the colour pink, you like wearing dresses and sparkly things, that’s awesome. But if you are a boy who likes pink sparkly things that’s also awesome.

Great. But goes on to explain the book the story says

Kit, the protagonist, doesn’t like playing with dolls or wearing dresses and at the age of three

So, should child who plays with "wrong gender" toys be pathologised in this way or not? Is it a sign of being trans that a girl doesn't like sparkly pink dresses?

[–]Herebedragons59 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Not sure why this is always something that gets brought it up, it seems fairly simple to me.

Disliking things stereotypically associated with your gender doesn't automatically make you transgender, at all. It's very rare anyone advocating for transgender people would say that it does, in fact.

What it is, though, is a potential sign that you might be transgender. Rejecting stereotypes of your birth sex and preferring those of the opposite is simply one of the most obvious ways that somebody can express the fact they're not comfortable with their gender identity, and this combined with feelings of gender dysphoria, etc. is a very good sign somebody is transgender.

Nobody is going to say that a girl who dislikes dresses or is a bit of a tomboy is automatically transgender. It's simply one of numerous signs, that may or may not be present in somebody transgender.

Does that help clear it up at all?

[–]yer-what [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

No, not really. Is rejecting gender stereotyping a symptom or isn't it? It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it, i.e. if the kid is trans then it is, if the kid isn't trans then it isn't.

Which makes it seem like a pretty useless way of telling if someone is trans or not. So why mention it at all?

[–]ChiefBobKelso [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Well it might be the case that kids that turn out to be trans are more likely to play with the opposing gender's toys, in which case it could be an indicator. Just because something doesn't fit 100% of the time doesn't mean it can't be an at least somewhat useful predictor, though I have no idea if it actually is in this case.

[–]yer-what [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it could be an indicator

No, it would be pretty useless given the rarity of trans kids in the general population. The number of false positives would massively outnumber the number of true diagnoses. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes'_theorem

[–]Herebedragons59 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Okay, let me try and rephrase. It is a symptom, yes, but it isn't the sole determining factor or any kind of 100% certainty. Like with a lot of symptoms, you have to look at the broader picture.

Like a lump in your breast can either mean you have breast cancer, or it can just be nothing. Both are a useful and obvious symptom, but not one that is a certainty.

[–]moonflower [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

But it raises the question - are 'transgender' children identifying with gender roles rather than being born with an innate sense of how their reproductive organs should be?

Young children don't even know that there are different types of reproductive organs until someone teaches them.

I have never heard of a transgender child who utterly rejects the gender role of the sex which they want to be - never heard of a boy who wants to be female but who hates wearing pretty dresses.

[–]Herebedragons59 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm not really well enough qualified to address the first half of your question, but I can address your last point. Plenty of transgender people don't conform to the stereotypes of their preferred gender, feel free to browse the transgender subs here and you'll find plenty of examples.

Or you can just take my word for it, seeing as I'm one of those people who is trans but doesn't love pink or sparkly dresses, etc.

[–]alibixmuscular liberal 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Kit, the protagonist, doesn’t like playing with dolls or wearing dresses and at the age of three asks to be called Christopher. “You see,” explains Kit, “I have a different gender identity than I was assigned at birth. Another name for this is called being transgender.” He begins to wear boys’ clothes, using he/him pronouns, changes his name on his birth certificate and explains that hormone blockers will stop him going through female puberty “and stop my body developing in ways that make me unhappy”.

He thinks he will take testosterone at 16 so he can go through male puberty with the other boys in his class; he goes on to talk about surgery as part of transitioning, about gender dysphoria and the use of different pronouns – while Kit has chosen he, his friend Amy is she, Sam has chosen they, and Leigh xe.

Atkinson, a practising Anglican who grew up in Bradford and went to an all-girls grammar school, said: “My upbringing was very traditional. My parents have always been very supportive. I know I’m lucky. But I know that the luck that I have is not shared by a lot of people.

“The world is changing. A book like this is needed. People want to help. They want to know. They want to have conversations but they don’t know how. A lot of the time it is not being dealt with or talked about in schools.”

Ready for the shit show in the comments. I personally want to know what age children are allowed to take hormone blockers.

[–]WelshRastaLiterally a fox hunting Tory 🐺 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (11子コメント)

“You see,” explains Kit, “I have a different gender identity than I was assigned at birth. Another name for this is called being transgender.

There is absolutely no way that a child of that age could pick up those words through schooling or appropriate media. This is no more than brainwashing the very young to score political points and it sickens me. Telling a child -apparently in detail- about the process of a sex change operation is just horrid. If a 6 year old wants to dress in boys cloths then fine, but please let kids be innocent :(

[–]DeathlyAcorn 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe it's because he's not real?

[–]sp8der [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Kit has chosen he, his friend Amy is she, Sam has chosen they, and Leigh xe.

I know how this is going to end with kids.

Gendermon! Xe, I choose you! My gendermon is rarer than yours! Nuh uhhh, I just became a xeptogender which is suuuuuper rare and powerful way better than yours!

If you think kids won't try and out-genderspecial each other you have never encountered a child in your life.

[–]baldutere 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I personally want to know what age children are allowed to take hormone blockers.

Kids who are trans may be given blockers once they reach tanner stage 2 where indicated.

Which is generally at an older age than kids who aren't trans are given blockers where indicated.

[–]DarkL1te🌹 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you start pre-puberty, all it does is put things on hold. When you come off them you'll go through puberty as normal. There really isn't any significant risk there, and it's completely reversible.

[–]sp8der [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How diverse can you get with only two valid choices?

[–]Doomsday11 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Why do we need to pander to a sub set of the population that doesn't even make up 1% of the uks population?

This attempting to take a controversial minority issue and ram it down kids throats. Rather than that sell it to the mainstream public and if that gets mass supporting consensus then you can try (although it's still shoving an agenda down tgeir throats)

Shit like this validates those who talk about pc culture.

[–]cannyobserver 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (11子コメント)

There was a good article by a reverend on the BBC after Trump's electoral victory that questioned the identity politics strategy of the Democratic party, specifically Obama's decision to enshrine transgender bathroom policies in law. The gist was that these motions to appease a vocal minority conversely unsettle a very large majority who perceive the Democrats to be simply rubbing their faces in it, but this isn't apparent until election time because the vocal minority have greater media representation.

Well, this is the same. Creeds, races and faiths are rarely ever so united as they are in opposition to attempts to legitimise giving children hormone altering drugs.

[–]baldutere 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (8子コメント)

here was a good article by a reverend on the BBC after Trump's electoral victory that questioned the identity politics strategy of the Democratic party, specifically Obama's decision to enshrine transgender bathroom policies in law

This isn't really what happened though. Trans people were using the bathroom they wanted for decades without any problem at all, and it was the Republicans who decided to play identity politics and start trying to legislate against this when they were pissed that they lost in the Supreme Court on gay marriage. Angry people were made angrier by being told that they couldn't discriminate against gay people any more and moved on to trans people, knowing full well that the the Democrats would probably respond by trying to protect an already extremely vulnerable minority group.

Indeed, pretty much the whole identity politics thing on the left is in response to traditionalists having played identity politics for decades, centuries even, to discriminate against and marginalise minority groups they disapproved of or felt were inferior or an affront to God or whatever.

[–]andrew2209Representatives are the trees. An MP's penis is the wood. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It was also stupid as the Republican Governor of North Carolina lost to a Democratic challenger in a state Trump won. Said governor also tried to completely curtail a load of powers the incoming Governor would recieve and pass them to the gerrymandered Republican NC State Congress

[–]OperarorLeft, not too loony. -4.38, -3.64 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

God, my blood has never boiled so much as hearing republicans like Huckabee talk about transgendered folks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-CX3swUdjo

Like, in the same way you can't really cure gayness with therapy I'd say it's the same here- a he to a she, she to a he or someone who'd go by they/them isn't too offensive surely? All the zhi/zer stuff can honestly fuck off, tho. He/She/They.

[–]andrew2209Representatives are the trees. An MP's penis is the wood. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Huckabee's madly religious and I think he only ran for President in 2016 for attention. He said he'd take the place in prison of a clerk arrested for refusing to give a marriage licence to a gay couple.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

All the zhi/zer stuff can honestly fuck off, tho. He/She/They.

A big part of the reason why they've tried to come up with an alternative pronoun is that when they try to use "they" in the singular they just get loads of people incorrectly telling them that "they" is only for plural and that they wouldn't use "they" in the singular so they would have to come up with something else.

So they did. And now they have loads of people going "well why don't you just use 'they'??". They literally invented another pronoun because people told them to do that instead of using "they", and now that they've done that they have loads of people criticising them for not just using "they".

Bending over backwards and they still can't win.

[–]OperarorLeft, not too loony. -4.38, -3.64 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

S'fair. Didn't know that much- a few of the folks I know who are a lil weird with how they feel genderwise usually just go with "they". I honestly didn't know people were assholes about 'they/them'. I lose faith in people more by the day.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

My favourite example of people having an issue with it is some Canadian professor who had this massive problem with the idea of using the singular they as a 'non-standard element of the English language' and in an interview in which he explained why he had an issue with it he proceeded to repeatedly use the singular they:

That's right. I don't recognize that. I don't recognize another person's right to decide what words I'm going to use, especially when the words they want me to use, first of all, are non-standard elements of the English language and they are constructs of a small coterie of ideologically motivated people. They might have a point but I'm not going to say their words for them.

[–]OperarorLeft, not too loony. -4.38, -3.64 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, colour me surprised. Every day's a school day and so on...At least when it comes to realizing how arbitrarily spiteful people can be.

[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal. Not "leftist pansy" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

and in an interview in which he explained why he had an issue with it he proceeded to repeatedly use the singular they:

His entire sentence makes sense without they being singular.

I don't recognize another person's right to decide what words I'm going to use, especially when the words they want me to use,

And here lies the point.

[–]TMWNN [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There was a good article by a reverend on the BBC after Trump's electoral victory that questioned the identity politics strategy of the Democratic party, specifically Obama's decision to enshrine transgender bathroom policies in law. The gist was that these motions to appease a vocal minority conversely unsettle a very large majority who perceive the Democrats to be simply rubbing their faces in it, but this isn't apparent until election time because the vocal minority have greater media representation.

Highly relevant Saturday Night Live joke and the resulting /r/funny discussion

[–]Pallas_Highest of High Tories - Young England Conservative -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mark Blyth said something simmilar after trumps election.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (54子コメント)

Honestly I don't understand the backlash against transgenderism and gender pronouns and things. Surely it's up to them how they identify, not ours? Explaining that to kids seems like a constructive way to prevent ignorance trumping freedom of expression really.

Edit: It's been interesting to watch the score on this point ping pong about. I still don't understand why this is controversial other than it makes you feel uncomfortable.

[–]ANUSBLASTER_MKIIPart of a nutritional Brexit. 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

My only issue is when transgenderism is contorted and exaggerated to where children (or adults) are considered transgender for liking things or acting in a way that is typically gendered. Usually you see this where some boy likes dressing up as Elsa or something and the parents take that to mean that the kid has body dysmorphia or is homosexual or something.

As long as the message is just to be whatever you want, and to not shit on others who choose to be something else then I'm cool.

[–]YeIIowed [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

'This is Timothy Juniper Summer Berry and ze's transgender and identifies as a 70 year old widowed woman with 2 cats and a son who never speaks to zer, we're visiting an endocrinologist to get him hormone blockers as soon as possible.'

'Mum please can I take this dress off and play football with my friends?'

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Is this subject one of your triggers or something? You're posting a bunch of reactionary bullshit all over the place Wellhung.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Honestly I don't understand the backlash against transgenderism and gender pronouns and things.

Aren't they two separate issues? I think that's kind of the problem.

I personally don't know anyone that thinks transgender people shouldn't exist, they might be insensitive to them, but they aren't hateful.

However the pronouns argument is a bit deeper than that. Humans are social creatures and we have assumptions, ones that we use in basic interactions. If those assumptions can not only offend but because of that potential to offend they are thought of as something wrong, it starts to chip away at something very fundamental in society.

If I see what I think is a man and as a person serving them say "hello sir, how can I help you?" 99%+ of the time I haven't done anything offensive, and 100% of the time i haven't meant offence. If that person says actually it's Mrs then I think you should respect that in my opinion, not to do so I would be an asshole.

However some seem to believe we should try to eliminate the offence, others feel we should be required to refer to people by pronouns outside of the norm. In both cases you are asking people to go beyond accommodation and in fact now those people are giving privilege to Trans people. That is my reading of what causes the push back.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

If someone saying "No actually I identify as a woman." puts people into a triggered huff, it's ridiculous and offensive, furthermore continuing to refer to them by the pronoun they don't want to be identified as. On the other hand, someone who throws a tantrum when someone wrongly assumes their identification is just as bad. Accommodating how other people prefer to be called is just common courtesy, it's not some sort of special privilege to be treated with respect.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think you have misunderstood, I agree.

I'm referring to the use of alternative pronouns when I say privilege, calling someone ze or whatever is going beyond accommodating in my opinion, it should neither be expected nor offensive to not do so IMO.

[–]kaedanirShitposter 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Using female pronouns for a transwoman? No problem whatsoever. More power to them.

Calling someone ze zir and zir self? No thanks.

Oh you identify as one of the other 70+ genders with its own unique pronouns? No thanks.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Why?

[–]kaedanirShitposter 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Because they are made up and useless. Unfortunately for them there is a biological basis for gender. There's also a biological basis for sex which some of these types have been disputing on national television believe it or not.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (20子コメント)

See that's what I'm talking about. Why not just let them identify however they want? What's the problem? How does it affect you?

[–]kaedanirShitposter [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

The problem is they are starting to mandate them by law and it's ridiculous. So it's not regulating what you can say but instead what you have to say. New York and Canada are examples of this.

The problem is in how ridiculous they are: link to list of examples found

From now on I'd like you to refer to me by my prounouns: master, master and master

[–]YeIIowed [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

He stops responding when you use 'ridiculous' pronouns. Clearly he's the guide on which are and aren't acceptable.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I stop responding because reducto ad absurdism is pointless to follow up.

[–]YeIIowed [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So certain pronouns are absurd but others aren't and should be respected? Why do you decide that distinction? Surely if you accept others then you should be accepting them all. Bigot.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

No because you don't actually identify that way, you're creating an absurd position to try and discredit the idea.

[–]YeIIowed [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Because I don't want to spend a year learning a brand new fucking language of pronouns on the off chance I might meet someone who likely represents less than 0.001% (Seeing as trans is representative of ~1% or under, I imagine that the number not identifying as male and female and as something else is much less again, possibly less than a percent of transgender) of people may use one of the many and offend them by not knowing it.

E: (Spivak, 1983)[56][57] E is laughing I called Em Eir eyes gleam That is Eirs E likes Emself

Ey: (Elverson, 1975)[58] Ey is laughing I called em Eir eyes gleam That is eirs Ey likes eirself

Hu: (Humanist, 1982)[59] Hu is laughing I called hum Hus eyes gleam That is hus Hu likes humself

Jee: (Jayce, 2011)[60] Jee is laughing I called jem Jeir eyes gleam That is jeirs Jee likes jemself

Ney: (Dicebox, 2010?)[61] Ney is laughing I called nem Neir eyes gleam That is neirs Ney likes nemself

Peh: (Dicebok, 2012?)[62][63] Peh is laughing I called pehm Peh's eyes gleam That is peh's Peh likes pehself

Per: (Piercy, 1979)[64] Per is laughing I called per Per eyes gleam That is pers Per likes perself

Thon: (Converse, 1884)[65] Thon is laughing I called thon Thons eyes gleam That is thons Thon likes thonself

Ve: (Hulme, c. 1980)[66] Ve is laughing I called ver Vis eyes gleam That is vis Ve likes verself

Xe: (Rickter, c. 1973)[67] Xe is laughing I called xem Xyr eyes gleam That is xyrs Xe likes xemself

Yo: (regional, c. 2004)[68][69] Yo is laughing I called yo — — ?

Ze, hir: (Bornstein, n.d.)[70] Ze (Zie, Sie) is laughing I called hir Hir eyes gleam That is hirs Ze (Zie, SIe) likes hirself

Ze, mer: (Creel, 1997)[71] Ze is laughing I called mer Zer eyes gleam That is zers Ze likes zemself

Ze, zir: (unknown, c. 2013)[72] Ze (Zie, Sie) is laughing I called zir/zem Zir/Zes eyes gleam That is zirs/zes Ze (Zie, Sie) likes zirself/zemself

Zhe: (Foldvary, 2000)[73][dead link] Zhe is laughing I called zhim Zher eyes gleam That is zhers Zhe likes zhimself

[–]SweatyBadgers [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because in doing so everybody has to deny reality and go along with that person's fantasy. It's annoying, and expects things of people just so they can feel special.

[–]moonman543 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

It affects you by making you look at it and you throw up.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Just because you can't look at yourself in a mirror doesn't mean you need to project that onto others who identify outside your safe space.

[–]moonman543 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So my feelings don't matter but theirs do? What sort of double standard is that?

[–]YeIIowed 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Surely it's up to them how they identify, not ours?

Sure is. Doesn't mean everyone has to refer to them as they want and neither does it mean they have the right to be offended if I don't call it them. I want to be called Sir BigCock, Count of Wellhung Manor but it's not going to happen, if you're a 6 and a half foot bloke with a beard wearing a dress and you want to be called ze zir or any of that silly shit, I'm calling you sir.

[–]Dr_Scoobie [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

If you want to be called Sir BigCock then just change your name to Sir BigCock.

[–]ANUSBLASTER_MKIIPart of a nutritional Brexit. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's still pretty cunty though. It's like you getting someones name wrong, and they correct you but you still decide to call them the wrong name because 'Fuck it, I know you as Dave. So I'm not calling you Rodney now.'

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Would you like it if everyone referred to you as Mrs. YeIIowed everyday, all the time, even though you've made it clear you're a Mr?

[–]YeIIowed 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

How do I make it clear to everyone? Wear a shirt with it on? Can I go to HR and ask for an apology if I walk into a bank with stubble and a shaved head and one of the cashiers calls me sir? Also, I think I made it clear what I wish to be referred as, it's Sir YeIIowed BiigCock, Count of Wellhung Manor III to you.

[–]heavythrowaway1 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Hello, YeIIowed. I'm a trans person and a long time lurker. Please ask me any questions at all and I will do my best to help answer from my own sliver of experience. I have not been 'triggered' nor am I butthurt but if you want to learn - it would seem that way from the way you post- then ask away.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

When people call you Mrs. you tell them "No actually I'm a guy". Now imagine doing that and the person you're talking to going "No you're a Mrs. You're just attention-seeking."

[–]Pallas_Highest of High Tories - Young England Conservative 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Explaining that to kids seems like a constructive way to prevent ignorance trumping freedom of expression really.

That kind of implies that the only reason someone would be against transgenderism and its promotion is because they are ignorant and uninformed, someone could read into the science behind it and not be persuaded or believe that transitioning is the best thing for these people. The freedom of expression argument also works both ways, people should be able to express their opinions regarding transgenderism as long as there is no law being broken regarding harrasment or abuse.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well it's pretty clear that people identify differently than the two normal genders. Saying they don't would just be ignorant.

[–]Pallas_Highest of High Tories - Young England Conservative 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I might have been reading too much into your earlier statement. By prevent ignorance I believed you to mean ignorance==negativity towards transgenderism, where as now I see you probably meant ignorance==knowledge of transgenderism.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Such is the problem with how people are perversing language.

[–]MimesAreShitesocial democrat | fuck fptp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

right-wingers don't like it when the world changes. it makes them feel uncomfortable.

[–]baldutere 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (47子コメント)

How terrible it is to teach children that people who are different from them exist and that this is okay. Ban this sick filth

[–]EchoChambers4All 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Because its an incredibly complicated and confusing issue that perhaps children don't have the cognitive ability to understand?

It's not transphobic to think that maybe this is too big an issue to be trying to get primary school aged children to comprehend.

[–]hlyciaIs the Political Compass is broken? [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Because its an incredibly complicated and confusing issue that perhaps children don't have the cognitive ability to understand?

So we should stop children learning about religion or politics too then.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Depends whether you are advocating teaching them about the concept or how they should feel positively or negatively about each differing view.

I don't think we should hide the idea of gender dysphoria from children, I just question the wider teachings surrounding it.

[–]hlyciaIs the Political Compass is broken? [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Faith schools teach children that specific religions should viewed positively or negatively. Some go beyond how children should feel about a particular religion to teaching that they'll go to hell if they don't feel that way.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And I don't agree with that, I personally think all schools should be secular.

[–]ThatsSoBloodRavenMy happiness is inversely correlated with Simon Heffer's [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If you don't think we should hide the idea of gender dysphoria from children, what's your issue with this book, which is introducing children to the idea of gender dysphoria?

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Because I don't have an issue with teaching the concept, teaching further than that starts becoming potentially a mix of pushing ideology and opinion we shouldn't be subjecting kids to. Especially when the author is a self styled activist.

[–]ThatsSoBloodRavenMy happiness is inversely correlated with Simon Heffer's [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What about this do you think is further than teaching the concept? Storybooks are the way kids are taught about most things.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Most kids don't know about puberty at 7, I think teaching them about hormone blockers and gender reassignment surgery isn't really necessary.

Not to mention the fact that the book is potentially causing some confusion between breaking down of traditional gender stereotypes and gender dysphoria.

A first time activist author isn't who I would choose to tackle such an emotive subject in an objective and educational way, sorry that is my opinion.

[–]baldutere 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because its an incredibly complicated and confusing issue that perhaps children don't have the cognitive ability to understand?

Generally speaking when adults think that some kind of social issue is too complicated and confusing for kids they're projecting.

Kids understand far more than most adults give them credit for and in any case will generally accept most things that you tell them if they're explained well. You might find it complicated or confusing because you've been taught all these rules for how society works and how people should be and trans people don't quite fit them, but kids haven't, and when it comes to things like this they don't tend to struggle.

See, e.g., all the arguments in the past that homosexuality was too complicated and confusing for kids to understand. This is just a rehash of that, the same tired old argument. Kids understand just fine.

[–]RhovarkTechnocracy is just fascism with scientists [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Kids understand far more than most adults give them credit for and in any case will generally accept most things that you tell them if they're explained well.

That's the problem. This is a controversial issue and one side coming in and trying to indoctrinate kids into believing their side bothers people.

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

one side coming in and trying to indoctrinate kids into believing their side bothers people.

One side has been doing that for decades, centuries even, and will presumably continue to do that for as long as they can. It isn't the pro-trans rights side.

They don't object to kids being indoctrinated. They object to the other side getting a chance to make their case.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

While I don't disagree with your premise, I personally think it's fine to teach kids about homosexuality for instance, I don't think that quite transfers to this instance.

We know what gender dysphoria is, we also know that girls can like cars and football and boys can play with dolls and like pink. I wouldn't have an issue teaching any of those premises to kids, including that gender dysphoria exists. I think that would be helpful so kids who think they may be experiencing it can reach out for help.

The problem I have is in this article and presumably in this book the author is an activist and appears to write as one, I don't expect that they have put these issues forward in an objective manner. There is a lot of conflation going on.

I would like to read the book but I feel from this article the author puts forward a premise kids could understand (maybe all boys aren't born boys and vice versa) and over complicates it.

[–]Dr_Scoobie [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Wow, you must think really lowly of children. They're smart enough to be rather manipulative.

[–]EchoChambers4All [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No I think quite highly of them, I however am suspicious of adults with an agenda who want to influence them.

[–]ArffmanReluctant 100%er 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Next, maybe a fun story about Tommy and the voice in his head, Terry! Tommy wants to play with his friends, but Terry wants to hide himself away in his room! You see children, it's okay if you have schizophrenia even if certain nasty people in society, depicted here as knuckle-dragging goblins, think difficult mental problems aren't something that need 'embracing'!

[–]TwistTurtle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I mean, a book that teaches kids that if they hear voices in their heads or other signs of mental illness, they should attempt to communicate this to other people who can get them help, rather than treating mental illness as some sign of evil that needs to be hidden, lest you be thrown out of society, that would be pretty good.

[–]ArffmanReluctant 100%er [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I didn't say anything about 'evil that needs to be hidden' of course. Not everything needs classifying in such extreme terms.

[–]baldutere 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

We're talking about transgender people, not people with schizophrenia.

I understand that decent, civilised conversation might be beyond you, but do at least try to keep up.

[–]GuessImStuckWithThis 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Explain to me the difference between a trans person wanting to be the opposite gender and an anorexic person thinking they're not thin enough then

[–]baldutere [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Explain to me the difference between a gay person thinking they love someone of the same sex and an anorexic person thinking they're not thin enough.

Anorexic people are delusional in that they genuinely think that they aren't thin enough; trans people are not delusional in that they're aware - often painfully so - of their birth sex, they just have a different gender.

The distress seen in anorexia can't be seen in people who aren't anorexic and so is unique to anorexia, the distress often seen in trans people as a result of having a gender that differs from birth sex can be seen in people who aren't trans (e.g. in men who develop breasts as a result of gynecomastia, or in women who develop facial hair as a result of PCOS) and so isn't unique to trans people.

If you treat anorexia by allowing the patient to starve then that doesn't reduce the distress and anyway you eventually kill the patient; if you treat trans people by allowing them to transition then you usually eliminate the distress and you typically save the patient (and not transitioning often results in death)

Being transgender and having anorexia differ in that one is a delusion while the other isn't, in that the distress of one is unique to it while in the other it isn't, and in that indulging one doesn't reduce the distress and results in death while in the other it reduces the distress and typically results in relatively healthy survival (as opposed to an increased likelihood of death for non-treatment)

[–]ArffmanReluctant 100%er 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I said 'next'. After all, why normalize some mental disorders but not others?

[–]DeathlyAcorn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I quite like the idea of having books that draw attention to mental health matters. I know he was being a tool but I think if done right it would be pretty good.

[–]baldutere 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

He wasn't advocating for awareness of mental health issues he was equating being transgender with having schizophrenia, in the same way as being gay used to be dismissed as a mental illness and therefore not something that was okay to teach kids about, but yes. Greater awareness of mental health issues from a relatively young age, in the same way as kids are usually aware of physical health issues from a young age, might make people more likely to seek help and to do so earlier which would be good for pretty much everyone.

[–]Pallas_Highest of High Tories - Young England Conservative 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The "but people used to think gay people were mentally ill" argument is kind of lazy.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Just because it's not groundbreaking doesn't mean it's not still applicable.

[–]Xoanon99 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (12子コメント)

How terrible it is to teach children that people who are different from them exist and that this is okay.

They are not different though, they are just narcissistic attention seekers.

[–]baldutere 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Have you ever actually met any trans people? They tend to want nothing more than to just transition and then be able to quietly live their life the way that they want to in peace. Sadly they face serious discrimination and marginalisation and high rates of physical and sexual harassment and violence and often have no choice but to try to raise awareness of the shit position that they're in so that they can try and change things and improve things both for themselves and so that trans people in future don't have to deal with what they have to deal with.

It isn't narcissistic attention seeking.

[–]Xoanon99 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Have you ever actually met any trans people?

Yes I worked with one for a few months before he died of a heart attack. He looked like Bernard Manning in a dress, and he was just embarrassing to be around. It was a relief to be rid of him.

[–]ItsDominare 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a person you're talking about, you cunt.

[–]DeathlyAcorn 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I imagine the person they're talking about is just a figment of their imagination so they can continue being a poor excuse for a troll. I wouldn't bother entertaining it.

[–]baldutere -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why did you find this embarrassing?

[–]Xoanon99 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

He was an overweight man in his 50's who wore tight-fitting dresses, a bad wig, and addressed himself as Susan.

It was impossible to take him seriously.

[–]baldutere 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why was this embarrassing to you?

What was it impossible to take them seriously?

[–]alibixmuscular liberal -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fucking attention seekers. Bet that's why half of transgender teens attempt suicide.

Attention seeking narcissistic devils.

[–]ThatFlyingScotsmanSNP | ""Islami Al-Scotlandi"" | ""Being Scottish is a condition" 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hah, the people who say all trans people are narcissistic are the same people who say that depression and suicide is attention-seeking and people just being lazy.

[–]sulodWilders for the Netherlands | Le Pen for France [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This transgender nonsense is the modern day trepanning, society thinks they're helping people live with gender dysphoria by encouraging them to pump themselves with hormones and turn their penis inside out, but in the end, it causes more problems than it solves.

[–]OwlsParliamentTooting Popular Front -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

At some point kids have to learn this stuff, and yeah, it's fine to debate when.

But bigots like these just want to stamp it out entirely.