What are your opinions on "fragile masculinity"?

tudelord · 1日前

I compare the tone of those things with the tone of /r/ShitRedditSays. The content itself is worth mentioning and it's good to bring exposure to toxic influences, but the tone is very clearly from a place of frustration, which is understandable. That tone is what so easily lends this rhetoric to divisiveness. Division is bad in an activist movement, and the fact there are feminists who genuinely believe there is no place for men in the conversation just adds to the difficulty of advancing it IMO.

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill, or do you find this just as frustrating as me?

It's absolutely a gender issue, so it's worth raising awareness about, but you'll have a harder time because most female feminists are pretty frustrated with their own issues. I mean we both know if you post about how this rhetoric affects mens' issues in a feminist space your chances of getting a "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ" is pretty high, because that complaint happens all the time from men who are saying it as a naive way of "tu quoque"-ing feminists and trying to invalidate their criticism. I'm guessing it's pretty exhausting to have to rebut that fifty times a day and it's easier just to make fun of it.

As with most tone problems on the internet, most of it is a function of Twitter and meme culture, and the only real solution I can think of is to be the change you want to see. Raise awareness of these issues as best you can. Eventually people will see through their frustration and realize this is an effort in good faith. Maybe they'll make it part of their view. (Not that a lot of feminists haven't already, but it's not something you can easily talk about in a headline or a tweet, so what's more visible to us is the vociferous, frustrated stuff, especially since there's a lot to be vociferous and frustrated about.)

delta_baryon · 1日前

I don't know if I agree with the wording, it's too divisive, but I can't be the only one here who's frustrated with the response relatively innocuous, uncontroversial parts of feminism get from certain other men, particularly online. It's an unfortunate reality that any attempt to improve the lives of women or to critique certain male gender roles will be met with a response of "Why do you hate men?"

It is a problem that we collectively need to address. It seems we (by which I mean men online, not /r/MensLib) can't discuss gender pay disparity without it turning into a tit for tat argument about male enrollment in higher education or representation in nursing.

This issue isn't just a response to women's issues either. For instance, the vast majority of mass shooters are male. I would love it if more of us could discuss why some young men feel alienated enough to do something so terrible. If you bring it up, however, you're often shouted down for "blaming men."

Collectively, we should encourage each other to see women's rights movements as complementary to our own, not as competitors and not to see introspection and self improvement as blame. In general, you can only work on our flaws once you've learnt not to be defensive about them, no matter your gender, race or sexual orientation. Perhaps we're not fragile, but we could learn to be less defensive.

VHSRoot · 1日前

That's partially why I was disappointed that more people weren't disgusted by the naked Trump statues a few months ago.

jeffhughes · 1日前

I understand where you're coming from, and sometimes feminists can "blow off steam" in ways that can are kind of sucky. I don't feel the need to defend everything every feminist has ever said. But as someone who calls himself a male feminist, obviously I think there is value to the movement as a whole, and I don't think the movement as a whole shames men.

I think you're hitting on two separate issues here:

1) Gender roles. I don't think feminists largely view men as "the perpetrators and enforcers of gender roles". Gender roles exist at the cultural level, and to some extent we all prop up these roles as we exist in the culture. That includes both men and women, and it can include even those who fight against roles they see as problematic (i.e., feminists might be against gender roles, but they're still not perfect). When feminists talk about "patriarchy", they're not talking about a secret cabal of men deciding things, they're talking about a systemic force to which we all contribute.

2) Disproportionate power. At the same time, feminists do like to point out the disproportionate amount of power that men have in society. Most lawmakers, CEOs, and media personalities are men, which means men tend to make more of the decisions that end up affecting society. So when feminists point fingers at pink Bic pens as sexist, and Axe "detailers" (i.e., loofahs) as fragile masculinity, they are acknowledging that both are sexist, and both the products of a sexist society. But there is also a recognition that, at the end of the day, it was likely a man who decided that their business was going to create these products. It was likely a man who gave the final thumbs up to put these products on the market. Which means that a man decided that ladies needed pink pens, and a man decided that they couldn't market loofahs to men without a ridiculous name. That changes the dynamic. Both products prop up existing gender norms, and both men and women can support such norms (by, say, buying these products for themselves or others), but we can still react to these products differently because of the power structures that led to their creation.

As a final note: You use the words "pandering, sexist and problematic" to describe unnecessarily feminine branded products. But to be honest, I would use the same terms to describe unnecessarily masculine branded products. Again, as a man, I find the idea that I need my loofahs to be marketed as "detailers" to be infantile, and it completely feels pandering to me. But I've also had personal experience of having been at one point a man who was scared of being perceived as feminine, and I understand that "fragile masculinity" is a thing in a way that "fragile femininity" is not. If that hasn't been your experience, kudos to you. You're just ahead of the curve.

sneakydevi · 1日前

Female Feminist, who likes spending time is MensLib spaces, here. I absolutely get where you are coming from and I share your frustrations. And I think this is a problem in all social movements. For example, I have had discussions with gay friends where there emerged a strong thread of blaming women for trapping gay men into marriages they don't want to be in. Things got very misogynistic real fast. Or when people of color blame all their problems on white people without looking at the intersection of poverty on the issue.

This is an old problem (see Stanton and Douglass conflicts) and I think that it really stems from the complexity of these issues. Its hard to fix a problem that doesn't have a clear perpetrator. We NEED a clear perpetrator. So we simplify and focus. It takes a lot of introspection and training to do otherwise.

So I hate it. I'll call it out if I can. But it is not going to go away. Its too human.

patrickkellyf3 · 1日前

I feel really uncomfortable when it's used as a blanket criticism over men as a whole gender. Specific scenarios, however, I think it's a bit more appropriate.

I've a coworker who almost takes pride in his arbitrary, "masculine" restrictions. He's new to the area, so he asked where he could get a haircut, so I started talking about a hairdresser I go to, to which he said "Nah, nah, man, I need a barber, a man to cut my hair for me." At which point I immediately made fun of him for: fragile masculinity. Comfort levels based on gender in scenarios like this are just silly, and I easily call them out, on an individual basis.

lolylolerton · 1日前

A lot of feminists, both men and women, are not very good ones. You are right that gender roles and a patriarchal system disadvantages men as well as women (though in less obvious and often less sever ways).

Wrt your example, it is just a dearth of empathy. They look at pink-tax items as condescending and sexist (they are) because they are the intended targets but feel like the marketing is particularly bad. For 'manly' items, they just seem to assume the marketing is good and use that as a criticism of male fragility.

I think critiques of certain types of masculinity are fine (i.e. toxic masculinity where some people are overly aggressive, hypercompetitive, and constantly trying to 'dominate' their peers, or fragile masculinity where men can lash out at perceived slights to their manliness that can manifest itself in things like homophobia) but it is necessary to understand those as not critiques of masculinity writ large.

If you are in feminist spaces and they are just bashing masculinity, you should point out that that behavior is problematic within a movement that is supposed to be accepting of all gender roles (i.e. Male-bashing is transphobic and overall pretty TERF-y) and generally trying to overcome gender roles/make them more fluid. Also it is rhetorically off-putting to allies.

llamastingray · 1日前

I'm also not a fan of the 'masculinity so fragile' jokes. I find gendered products kind of ridiculous, but I think any analysis claiming that marketing products towards men stems solely from male insecurity about their own masculine gender roles to be reductive. As you point out, the reaction towards feminine products marketed toward women is different and people are very quick to point out that such a marketing strategy is unnecessary and not supported by lots of women.

However, I do think those jokes are based in a real insecurity around masculinity that is propagated by some. Off the top of my head, Richard Hammond's recent comments about not eating ice-cream because he's a straight man is a good example. On a wider social level (at least where I live), it's also more acceptable for women to transgress gender roles and stereotypes than it is for men - it's not as taboo for women to express interest in traditionally masculine activities or to act/dress in a masculine manner than it is for men to appear feminine or take an interest in traditionally feminine activities. There are stronger expectations for men to conform to a more rigid gender role, and when they step outside of that there is more of a social backlash. There's an acceptance that women can still claim femininity and do traditionally masculine things, but when men do traditionally feminine things their masculinity is often seriously questioned by others. In this sense, masculinity appears more fragile.

So, while the jokes are reductive and unhelpful I don't think they necessarily come out of a 'blindness' to the nature of gender roles - I think the case is more that people haven't given serious thought to the notion of fragile masculinity, and there's less impetus to consider a male perspective, as a lot of feminist spaces are women-centred.

centipededamascus · 1日前

Specifically it bothers me when, on the one hand, unnecessarily feminine branded products are tauted as pandering, sexist and problematic, while on the other hand, unnecessarily masculine branded products are an occasion to make fun of men for being so insecure in their masculinity as to need "manly" products to prop themselves up. I'm sure you've seen it, accompanied by taglines such as "masculinity so fragile".

To be honest, this particular thing doesn't really bother me. The difference between the two things as I see it is that women don't need a whole lot of enticement to be associated with things that are traditionally "male coded" In fact, in our society it's often seen as desirable for women to be interested in traditionally "male" things like sports or cars or guns or whatever. On the other hand, in our society it is seen as very undesirable for men to be associated with "female coded" things, like makeup or grooming products or whatever. So when a product is unnecessarily "coded female", it sends a different message than when a product is unnecessarily "coded male".

In addition, when I see "fragile masculinity" being made fun of, I don't feel like I am being targeted. They're targeting people who avoid ice cream because it's "gay" or who feel emasculated when they're asked to hold their girlfriend's purse. I know that's not the kind of man I am, so why should I feel targeted? They're not making fun of the concept of masculinity, only the way certain (insecure) people express it.

inkoDe · 1日前

To be honest, I don't experience "radical" feminism... like... ever. There are men and women and we just sort of do our shit. Work or otherwise. If you get along with women more, great-- be grateful you are making human connections in any capacity. MOST people simply don't have these "problems" on their radar. Most of that shit you read on reddit is a purely radical and for the most part very fringe element of society. Most men and women just treat each other like people. I know that is a boring answer, but the more time you spend in the wild the more you will see the truth of it.

MeeperMogle · 1日前

I enjoy spending time in feminist spaces.

I do not, and that is above all else because of the things you are mentioning. It might not be a big thing for people with other personalities, but I can't stand being part of a group where I feel a lot of the people despise me. It puts immense amounts of stress on me to constantly feel like people around me hate me. Which is exactly what I feel about feminist spaces; to me they're not nice, open and welcoming places to discuss equality. To me one of their functions is that they're safe-spaces to bash men, backed up by people who may not do the bashing, but they'll surely stay on the basher-side with the "I understand your anger, your anger is valid"-policy. And so it will be me that is pushed out, "to keep the peace".

So I rarely if ever participate in any discussions related to equality. Don't share thoughts. Don't share ideas. Don't discuss issues. Don't even ask questions. Just, occasionally, read something that looks like it would be thought-provoking. But never delving any deeper into the subject-matter. Because where, and with whom, would I?

Even writing this out is incredibly tiring, because it just feels hopeless. Like it's useless even trying to understand these things, wasted time, because "clearly these people hate me any way; damned if you do, damned if you don't, what's the point". And that is an incredibly frustrating thing to continuously be brought back to when you do care, you do think these things are important, you do want the best for everyone and you would like to be part of proper intellectual discussions to actually gain more than a general, basic understanding of it all.

For the last few months I've settled for one single subset about societal gender norms - after just not bothering at all for quite a while. Today MensLib is the only place even remotely connected to feminism that I frequent (catching only the occasional tweet and/or Facebook post from HeForShe), because these are things that are not pure theory inapplicable to me personally. And in my mind the men-bashing will be kept to a minimum in a sub about "development and well-being for men".

And even then this is my first post in this sub - unless any of my other attempts to write pretty much exactly this kind of post actually got to the "save"-stage and my mind just repressed that because of how painful it is to put these things together into a (semi-)coherent text at all. In fact, better post this before getting to the "why even bother"-stage of this.

punkerdante182 · 1日前

Sorry for the length, I didn't have time to write a shorter response. Personally? I hate it. Masculinity is a complex thing that's being constantly restrained. Everyone wants us to be more sensitive, open up, talk about our feelings. And their right we totally should. It's toxic to ourselves and to each other to keep everything bottled up. But you can't say "Be more in touch with your feelings, cry more" and then say "masculinity so fragile". It's bullshit and hypocritical. I'm sick of hearing it and seeing it. They're right, the examples and memes I've seen that have the "masculinity so fragile" tag line are ridiculous and should be called out. But not as a counterproductive blanket statement. Either we cry and express ourselves (the good, the bad and the misunderstood) or we go back to the Clint Eastwood Ron Swanson way of what a "man" should be.

VegVagVagabond · 1日前

I have laughed at the "masculinity so fragile" things before, but after you pointing this out, I see that to be a good ally to the men in my life, I need to reexamine. It's hard to advocate in good faith for what you believe at all times, because a lot of people get really defensive (especially in real life) even if your point hit home. But what you've said is worth bringing up, because it is a good argument and can change minds.

And an unfortunate truth of progress is that the minds of individuals have to change. I think about my family and how they lovingly accepted my sister when she came out as gay, despite that they previously had some pretty homophobic views. And now I'm dating a man for whom the pressures of masculinity are equally as destructive and absurd as femininity has been for me. It's really forcing me to confront some of my bizarre biases about men, masculinity, and relationships with men that I didn't even know I had. But how shitty that I didn't realize this until dating him! How many other unconfronted ideas and norms do I hold that translate into me being a crappy friend, citizen, feminist, etc?

It's understandable that you would get tired of talking to people one on one, and exhausted by the realization that even people who want to be "allies" do a shitty job sometimes. Some of your wording really reminds me of this straw feminists comic. Like a few frustrating people have jaded you into thinking that all feminists are a certain way. But I think it is just that phenomenon that even good-hearted individuals have terrible biases, and change is hard because even the people on our side are imperfect.

I hope that you will keep doing the good work of honestly, earnestly voicing your concerns about how we talk about masculinity-- and listening to others in a sincere dialogue. And I hope when you are tired of your words falling on deaf ears, you have good people in your life who form a solid "comfort zone" into which you can retreat and heal.

BJPenwhistle · 15時間前

I can't speak for anyone else but as a pansexual woman trying to convert people away from bigoted, ignorant, hateful, or disrespectful attitudes, I am hesitant to use any terminologies that might incite a shutdown of willingness to engage.

For example, a lot of people on my side of the aisle like to whip out what I call the "privilege bat" and beat people with it. YOU HAVE WHITE PRIVILEGE. YOU HAVE MALE PRIVILEGE. YOU HAVE RICH PRIVILEGE. Etc etc. Being combative and accusatory is a surefire way to get someone to NOT listen to you.

But the word "privilege" in and of itself is not likely to incite those "shutdown" feelings if used properly (re: respectfully and with proper priming). Terms like "toxic masculinity" and "fragile masculinity" could be interpreted as offensive by people who don't know what they mean.

If you come at someone shouting "TOXIC MASCULINITY!" and they don't know what that is, they're just going to think you're saying men are toxic, assume you're a man-hater, and disengage. I feel like most people need to be assured that you're not accusing them of anything or challenging who they are as a person when you introduce concepts like this.

If you carefully lead up to explaining that "fragile masculinity" isn't meant as an insult against men, that it's a term describing the systemic, societal conditions and abuses that lead men to becoming extremely and sometimes even dangerously insecure about their masculinity, I believe you can get almost anyone to accept that it is a real thing which has a real effect on real men.

But if you walk up to some dude and shout "fragile masculinity" at him, he's just going to think you're insulting him. He's not going to listen to what you have to say and nothing good will come of it. I think when we engage people in these kinds of conversations, we need to keep in mind what our goals are. If the goal is to change minds, then we need to be mindful to engage people in a way that won't shut them down.

nonneb · 1日前

The guilty party so to speak, meaning my position that men are victims of gender roles in the same way women are (although with different severity), does not appear to be reconcilable with mainstream feminism.

It's not reconcilable with certain strains of feminism. Most of my irl feminist friends tend towards radical feminism or queer theory, and I don't encounter what you're saying here much at all. Sometimes when they're talking about women's issues and some guy keeps on being like, "But men..." they tell him now's not the time. Generally I (man, in case it's not clear) find them very agreeable about that fact that patriarchy is an oppressive structure that affects everyone, including men.

I believe it's symptomatic of this problem where certain self-proclaimed feminists are not in fact fighting to abolish gender roles. Instead they are complaining against perceived injustices toward themselves, no matter how minor (see: pink bic pens), meanwhile using gender roles to shame men whenever it suits them.

Some strains of feminism are worse about this than others, but this especially matches my experience with tumblr feminism. I would say it's more about shaming anyone they disagree with than only men, but that's basically right. I don't take them seriously because I've met probably less than ten people like that in real life. I'm also too old for the tumblr demographic and don't live in the US, so maybe it's a bigger problem than I realize.

The feeling I am left with is that my perspective is not welcome in feminist circles. I can certainly see how these tendencies could drive a more reactionary person towards MRA philosophy.

I got banned on a subreddit for my (admittedly somewhat unapologetic) insistence that our goal has to be eliminating gender roles, and any views which do not further this aim is not my kind of feminism. Even though abolishing gender may have negative consequences for individuals whose gender forms a large part of their identity, and even though a lot of people are very attached to their gender.

I have a good irl network of feminist acquaintances, so the alienation I feel on the internet is at most frustrating, but I can certainly see how men without a solid group of allies could feel turned out by modern feminism and look for other "answers".

raktajinos · 22時間前

I'm divided on the issue. On the one hand, I do think that "masculinity so fragile" jokes can contribute to a sense that it's more ok to make fun of men for conformity to gender roles than it is to make fun of women for the same.

On the other hand, IMO it's true that masculinity is more fragile than femininity, on a cultural level. I actually prefer the term "precarious" to "fragile" because it conjures the idea of balancing/falling, rather than weakness. Masculinity functions as a high and narrow peak: the height awards social status, but the steepness means that even sleight deviations can lead to a disastrous fall. Femininity works in a completely different way-- it's a metaphorical low peak, associated with poor/limited social standing and overall negative prejudices, but it is somewhat broader and comparatively less dangerous to deviate upon. The precariousness of masculinity is fundamental to understanding how men are made prisoner by sexist expectations-- and how other gender-related prejudices, like homophobia and transphobia, are fueled by the fear of "failed masculinity".

If we understand "masculinity so fragile" jokes as criticizing this structure, the shape of the social peak on which men are expected to balance, then I agree with them. However, if we allow "masculinity so fragile" jokes to become about blaming the individuals who buy products "for men" etc, then I have issues with it.

venomouskitten · 1日前

Wanted to add my two cents as a woman feminist: basically, I agree with your points. Gendered insults do nothing to support equality and they only serve, in my opinion, to alienate people.

In my view, this issue is leaking into misandry territory. Anyone who genuinely cares about equality would not make fun of men for adhering to the same system they forgive women for living in. The only difference I suppose is that men do at least have social privilege, but I don't think making fun of someone with privilege is at all helpful to those who don't have it.

concretepigeon · 1日前

I think the language is wrong. I don't understand how you can take a tone like that if you honestly care about men's mental health issues. It comes across as if really all their goal is, is to make themselves seem superior.

RiotingMoon · 1日前

I think some ideas are interesting. It's nice to finally see people poking at the fact men-focused products are just as sterotyped as womens. (pink vs black, "spice" vs "rose", etc) So the products are equally ridiculous and more are making it known, as oppose to the whole "men need special kleenix, hur" -which sadly IS a thing, kleenix now has "man size"....like what?- So the unnecessary branding is starting to get equal "what the hell" on both fronts, for all genders.

I think there's a little bit of "mountain out of molehill" going on with your thoughts, but they are your thoughts. I don't think most feminists (that I know/met) believe men are the "perpetrator" of any sort of roles, perhaps some still think the old "patriarchy" is to blame, but I believe the online-verse is very much about keeping that idea alive more than the IRL groups.

If you do come across the anti-masc/male ideology, that is more likely a very soft version of misandry that's being paraded as feminism.

Shanyi · 22時間前

It's as childish as any gendered slur. Most people who identify as a certain gender prefer things which they associate or are associated with that gender. Call a woman 'handsome' and many will act confused or defensive. Direct a woman asking for the toilet to the men's and she probably won't appreciate it. Criticise feminism in front of a feminist and most will get defensive, no matter how legitimate the criticism. None of that is 'fragile femininity'. Everyone can get a bit touchy when faced with dichotomies between how they see themselves and choices or confrontations which challenge that. There's nothing wrong with that. It says more about the people accusing others of being fragile than those they are accusing of fragility.

In the specific case of 'fragile masculinity', I've yet to see an example where the term is associated with anything other than specious examples sought out to prove a pre-existing bias or just rag on another group. The Buzzfeed article linked to in this thread, for instance, mostly shows items marketed at men, which only shows the ludicrous stereotypes and assumptions manufacturers make in trying to sell their nonsense to the male market. Pink ballpoint pens supposedly for women also exist, but their existence doesn't prove that femininity is 'fragile' any more than women who prefer pink things because they make them feel more feminine.

It's similar to how 'toxic masculinity' claims to be talking about a gender model, yet examples used are based entirely on stereotypes of the absolute worst type of man and not in any real masculine model in history. It's an excuse to make generalised slurs with a baseless, faux-academic 'explanation' attached so the user can pretend to others and themselves that it's not real bigotry. Unfortunately, that's what the 'equality' debate has descended into, both sides just looking for any way to justify insulting the other or prove them weak and inferior.

unclefisty · 1日前

I'm sure you've seen it, accompanied by taglines such as "masculinity so fragile".

Right after they take a sip from their "LOL MALE TEARS" mug.

I'm a firm believer that you can't advocate for equality while flinging out gendered insults and slurs.

Change can come organically or by force, the only way you can get organic change is to convince people of your beliefs. Insults don't buy many converts.

samuentaga · 1日前

I assume you're talking about this (sorry for the Buzzfeed, I hate them too)

It's a perception issue, really. It's not misandry, nowhere near it. It's women making fun of how ridiculous some of these brandings are. Oh, you want some sunscreen, but instead of buying a normal bottle of Banana Boat, you have to buy the black bottle, because you're a man, and men like black more than yellow.

They aren't blaming men for this. Okay, maybe they are, but not directly. They are pointing out how ridiculous gendered marketing has gotten, that advertisers think they have to put the words "MAN" in bold letters on bottles of shampoo so that men don't get self conscious about buying a purple bottle of Pantene while grocery shopping. If anyone is misandric, it's the advertisers who think men are this fragile about how their products are branded.

Feminists aren't saying "Oh look at how pathetic men are" for the most part. They are saying "Look at how ridiculous this gendered branding is for men. Also look at how ridiculous this gendered branding is for women, we both deserve better." Sure, by using buzzwords that the other side doesn't understand, these feminists are perceived to be misandric, but I can almost guarantee you these people do not hate men at all.

EDIT: Where did all the closet MRA's come from? Check yourselves.

jolly_mcfats · 1日前

Fragile masculinity is a way to reference precarious manhood with a frame that makes it appear ridiculous and- at least to me- shifts the entire responsibility of it to the man with fragile masculinity. What I find so frustrating about the notion is that it completely misses that masculinity is constructed around social norms and very real pressure (in the form of rewards and negative consequences) from the rest of society- men and women.

I also feel like "fragile masculinity" is primarily used as a means of trying to use gender to force behavior on men through shame- which, ironically, just makes it another form of emasculation threat.

So basically- I find it tone-deaf, smug, and indicative of an insufficiently complex understanding of the issues around the way masculinity is constructed differently from the way femininity is constructed. Fragile masculinity is related to the phenomenon of there being no feminine correlate to the word "emasculate", and we have cognitive biases which say that men are defined by what they do and women are defined by what they are. It's a deep and messy issue with troubling implications for both men and women that is treated far too glibly by the masculinity so fragile meme.

burtonclash · 1日前

It's like being in a boat and only paddling one side. You're still moving the boat, but you're not really getting anywhere. To tackle gender issues, we need equal attention on both sides, equal work being done on both sides, or else we just go in circles.

Edits 1,2, and 3: You guys crack me up.

elevenofclubs · 1日前

I find it pretty annoying, and consider it a gendered insult, and not a very constructive way of discussing gender politics.

That said, I do think there is a valid point being expressed, in that masculinity is enforced to such a degree that any slight deviation is considered to be an forbidden.

But the way in which it is almost always used as an insult is not going to inspire many of the people it is directed at to ask the critical questions about their identity as men, but rather drive them to feel that not only does feminism offer nothing for them, but it is also actively attacking them. This drives men to the MRA crowd, who respond to destructive gender politics with oppositionally destructive gender politics.

breathesrain · 16時間前

When I see "fragile masculinity", in my mind it isn't an attack on males but an attack on the unhealthy aspects of masculinity which is one of the very things we are trying to address on this subreddit. I definitely understand why you would feel the way you do, and there may well be people who don't think it through. But fragile masculinity is a thing, and it's up to us to change our cultural understanding of masculinity and maleness.

NativeJovian · 16時間前

I think that fragile masculinity is a real thing that's a real problem, but the way people talk about it is backwards.

Fragile masculinity is the result of men who are taught that they have to be MANLY MEN, ALL THE TIME, FOREVER or else they'll be branded as sissy little girls instead (which, they're also taught, is a bad thing to be avoided at all costs). This is incredibly unhealthy. It causes a lot of stress and anxiety in men who must constantly worry about whether they're being manly enough. It leads to harmful behaviors like men refusing to seek out help when they need it because doing so is considered "weak" or "unmanly" (and therefore unacceptable).

In other words, fragile masculinity is not something that men do to themselves, it's something that society does to men by putting unreasonable expectations of manliness on them. The concept deserves mockery (what does buying sunscreen out of a black bottle instead of a yellow one have to do with being a man?), but the people who suffer from it do not. Fear of that ridicule is exactly what causes fragile masculinity.

Making fun of men for being afraid that they're not masculine enough is like kicking someone when they're down, because MANLY MEN are confident and self-assured, not anxious about their self-image. The fact that they're worrying about whether or not they're manly enough is proof in their own eyes that they're not manly enough, and then someone making fun of fragile masculinity is throwing that in their face. It's like telling someone who has body image issues that it's their fault they have body image issues, because if only they were confident enough to have a positive body image, then they wouldn't be struggling with a negative body image. It's victim-blaming at its finest, and it does nothing but exacerbate the actual problem.

Kingreaper · 1日前

Anyone who uses the term "fragile masculinity", and is unwilling to use the term "fragile femininity" is a sexist*, plain and simple.

*Or, if they insist on "power+privilege" and insist that therefore only misogyny can be sexism, "a powerless bigot"

Given how few people are willing to use "fragile femininity", my default assumption is therefore that anyone using the term "fragile masculinity" is probably a bigot.

But that shouldn't be used to tar all feminists - feminism is a very broad tent including everything from misandrist TERFs to egalitarians to patriarchal "women must be protected from all harm" guardians, with the majority being mostly egalitarian.

snarpy · 1日前

I honestly wouldn't put too much stake in it. We don't have to like it and we don't have to support it but it's mostly just letting off steam and it's mostly directed at toxic masculinity.

They should probably use the word toxic but I think the point is that it's satire. Understandably that ruffles feathers but that's what satire is meant to do.

Does it overall have a positive or negative effect? I personally don't take offense to it, because yeah, masculinity IS fragile (and so is femininity). The question would be if using tactics like this results in too much alienation compared to the potential for getting the message across.

Moiken · 1日前

I refuse to acknowledge that as feminism. It's not. Feminism is for equality, if you contribute to the problems of the other gender you are not doing something feministic.

Mysterious_Drifter · 1日前

I mean, as a feminist man, why should joking about fragile masculinity affect us? Isn't reacting negatively to it, as you have done, an example of fragile masculinity? Shouldn't we, as male feminists, be the most confident in our masculinity, knowing that we have discarded all that was oppressive about it, and are now real men just as we are now real humans for standing in solidarity with the female struggle and feeling a heartfelt kinship with the feminist movement? We go beyond just being men when we become feminists-- we become human because the feminist struggle is really a struggle for the liberation of humanity itself.

So you see, I am not insecure. If a woman jokes about fragile masculinity then I join her-- why shouldn't I? The reactionary man who is offended by the female struggle for liberation is fragile. He is not secure or confident in his masculinity. I am-- we are-- and so we can joke about fragile masculinity with feminists because we know we are not among the fragile reactionary men who are butt of their jokes.

I don't have a problem with fragile masculinity jokes because the sort of masculinity that is fragile is the unfeminist kind. I love joking about male tears, as a man, because I know full well that to the reactionary, fragile man I am a "gender traitor" or a "cuckhold" for supporting women's liberation. I know so many reactionary, fascistic men who would be so angry and offended and outraged that I call myself a feminist, or a Marxist, or a race traitor.

I agree with getting rid of gendered slurs such as b-tch and wh-re and etc., though. Otherwise, I don't understand the problem with fragile masculinity/male tears jokes. They're good fun and good catharsis.

benjotron · 23時間前

I tend to have the same negative gut reaction to the term, but I don't think it's really a hill to die on.

From what I've seen, men seem to be labeled "fragile" when they are seen as being overly concerned with their own masculine image or when they feel specifically threatened by Feminism, "PC culture" or whatever anti-Feminest term they've coined for the occasion.

If we're going to tackle gender roles, we need to deescalate both sides. Backlash is toxic, backlash against backlash is toxic, and backlash³ is toxic. To avoid framing things as a conflict, we need to be able to communicate in a way that tolerates a bit of hypocrisy and builds trust. I don't know how to do that without giving leeway to others first, especially if I'm in a Feminist space.

Kingreaper · 1日前

[removed]

1日前

[removed]

Rakonas · 1日前

[removed]

MensLib

/r/MensLib: For the Development and Well-Being of Men.

Our Mission

Resources for Men Guide

Ground Rules

/r/MensLib is a space for constructive discussion of men's issues. Moderators reserve complete discretion to maintain a positive atmosphere, including removing comments and submissions, and banning offenders.

Commenting Rules

Posting Rules

Moratoria

Subs of interest

調停者