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We Beat 'Em Before... (i.redd.it)

F90What's so good about a sickle? が 投稿

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[–]ComradePalpatineLeft unity 243 ポイント244 ポイント  (13子コメント)

"Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."

-K. Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon

[–]SiderollerBakunin 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This quote is doubly fitting when you realize that Louis Napolean took power Nov. 9th, the same day of the election.

[–]scattermoosePete Seeger 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

  • Kristallnacht

[–]Kant_stop_the_music 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Could you expand on what Marx means here please

Like is he just saying we already saw some historic fact x once, so it's a joke that it's happening again and we aren't stopping it?

[–]Kush5150Searching for the ghost of Tom Joad 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (4子コメント)

He is saying we don't learn from history.

[–]CounterkultureNelson Mandela 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Kinda hard to learn anything from it when you don't give a fuck about it and make no attempt to study it in the first place, and then piss on people who do.

[–]KatzenscheisseRojava 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Its not like the left is better in that regard though, glorifying past revolutions and thus preventing from learning anything from their past failures is extremely common. Claiming not pure enough ideological conviction is not a propper way to learn from things.

[–]RhianuAlinsky Radical ⚧ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention the fact that a genuine materialist believes ideology is largely irrelevant, anyway.

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]bort-thrillhoScottish Republic - A rat race is for rats 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    the quote is often shortened to "history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce"

    [–]RhianuAlinsky Radical ⚧ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In other words, fascism repeats itself, first as Hitler, then as Trump.

    [–]Fire_Of_TruthDer Schoß ist fruchtbar noch (...) 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is from the "18 Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" and should first and foremost be understood in the context of the 1851 coup of Louis Bonaparte (later "Napoleon III") and its similarities and differencs to the takeover (1799) of Republican France by Napoleon Bonaparte, or "Napoleon I".

    The sentence has often been used in other contextes, sometimes correctly (in close analogy to the Bonapartes), often just as a hollow phrase that sounds good.

    [–]TiakoGraccus Babeuf 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Marx is snarking at Louis Napoleon.

    [–]automatedcommie 89 ポイント90 ポイント  (43子コメント)

    Except this time we don't have the red army, and that this time America is probably with Russia with trump-putin alliance. It's scary to think we can beat them now.

    [–]_metamythicalWar of Position 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I don't usually upvote memes on /r/socialism but I upvoted this one because there just so much butthurt fascists and liberals in this thread.

    [–]HydroksPhil Ochs 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That goes for many threads here. Not a safe place for Reactionaries.

    [–]_COMMUNIST_CANADA_Liberty, Equality, Butt Stuff 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This isn't just a meme, comrade ;)

    [–]War_Daddy 99 ポイント100 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Liberals after watching Schindler's List:

    "Wow, just awful, we can never ever allow something like that to happen again, by any means necessary."

    Liberals facing an actual far-right populist authoritarian movement: "Ok well don't call them Nazis its very rude we need to try hugging them"

    [–]Death_to_FascismHistory will absolve them 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It's funny how both sides of the argument call each other liberals.

    [–]F90What's so good about a sickle?[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    To be fair Americans believe liberal capitalists are "the left".

    [–]Death_to_FascismHistory will absolve them 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm talking about us. There's people claiming comparing him to Hitler is liberal. There's people claiming not regarding him as a fascist who should be bashed is liberal. Both position coming from comrades.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]Korean_ChallengerMarxism-Leninism-Maoism 466 ポイント467 ポイント  (242子コメント)

      This incessant comparing of Trump to Hitler is pure liberalism and has got to stop. It's an insult to the millions that suffered and died under actual fascism.

      [–]GothCD420 129 ポイント130 ポイント  (34子コメント)

      You can draw comparisons between ideologies other than just how many people they've killed.

      [–]Alpha_chad 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (33子コメント)

      What similarities are there besides nationalism?

      [–]GothCD420 141 ポイント142 ポイント  (27子コメント)

      Nationalism as well as ethnocentrism and militarism, off the top of my head. The increasing persecution of left wing academics is also an alarming parallel, though it remains to be seen if Trump himself will take part in that when he's in office.

      His plan create a Muslim 'registry' has pretty obvious similarities to the persecution of Jews.

      inb4 Trump fans wig out

      [–]LazarusFaustusSankara 86 ポイント87 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      As well as attempting to dismantle the press (by constantly attacking the credibility of anyone critical of him, and sending his goons to harass and threaten anyone with a journalistic backbone), and his extreme anti-union rhetoric (union busting in favor of corporations is fascism 101).

      [–]captainmaryjaneway 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Look who he made his Secretary of Labor for fuck's sake. A CEO that thinks workers are too spoiled. Are you kidding me?!

      [–]Got_pissed_and_raged 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      He's learning a lot from Putin.

      [–]Augustus_Caesar1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Attacking their credibility isn't "dismantling the press" and to be fair the press deserves a shit ton of criticism for its horrible reporting and purposely suggestive narratives.

      As for anti-union rhetoric, its rhetoric. What fascist actions has he actually taken?

      I mean, you're calling the guy a fascist because of things hes said. If thats fascism its the weakest and most benign form of fascism there is.

      [–]asmallkibb 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      What fascist actions has he actually taken?

      Well he hasn't actually come into power yet... Also so sorry we are taking a man at his word.

      コメントをもっと表示する (20 返事)

        [–]a_full_emptyVaporwave 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        fascism is, and always will be, capitalism in decay. you're witnessing the decline of the american empire.

        [–]TiakoGraccus Babeuf 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The whole rhetorical program really.

        [–]pgclabor movement 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The only thing that smacks of liberalism is this refusal to acknowledge the proto-fascist tendencies of Trump's rise. If you're not honest enough to understand that, then you will continue to misidentify the crisis.

        [–]Zeikos 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        As a new comrade and therefore a bit of an ignoramus in these matters , out of curiousity why is "fascism" a much more common term than "nazism"?

        I am Italian and there is an huge ammount of propaganda /pure ideology/ about the fact that fascism wsan't as bad as nazism , obviously they ignore the imperialist and corporativist views of mussolini but that's slightly another matter.

        [–]SheepwithShovelsAnarchist 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Nazism is a branch of fascism. Fascism is used more frequently because it's more broad but at this point it's almost only ever used as a pejorative. While there are many right wing nationalists on the rise across the western world, very few of them are actual fascists. Golden Dawn and (I think but could be wrong) Jobbik are notable exceptions.

        [–]Zeikos 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Would you mind breaking down , or at least give me sources to do the job myself, the differences and nuances between fascism and most right wing groups?

        I know the policies fascists like/d but/and it's hard to find a clear cut definition of THIS is fascism however THIS is not. My own idea is that when the government is one party and said party owns the means of production that's fascism , but i think i'm missing several pieces.

        It's hard to make arguments against fascism in my discussions if i can't construct a good functioning nuanced definition of it.

        [–]SheepwithShovelsAnarchist 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Would you mind breaking down , or at least give me sources to do the job myself, the differences and nuances between fascism and most right wing groups?

        The core characteristics of fascism are a call for a national rejuvenation, corporatism, and extreme authoritarianism. An aggressive foreign policy and persecution of minorities is uncommon but not necessary.

        If you want to learn more about fascism, I recommend reading The Doctrine of Fascism by Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile (which you should be able to find a pdf of online) or simply about fascist regimes. Mussolini's reign over the Italian Empire, the Third Reich, and Peronist Argentina are a few examples.

        The Alternative Right is an umbrella term for a collection of different far right beliefs floating around today united by their belief in "race realism" (racial pseudoscience), right wing ethnic nationalism, and skepticism of all things egalitarian. While they frequently employ fascist iconography and rhetoric (sometimes in jest, other times sincerely), few of them are really fascist. However, this doesn't mean they aren't bad. I'd take Peronism or even OG Mussolini-style fascism over what many of them propose any day.

        If you want to learn about these ideas, you can go to the subreddits /r/DebateFascism, /r/DarkEnlightenment tips fedora, radical traditionalism (I don't think there's a major sub for it so here's the wiki page), and /r/AltRight. Just be sure not to buy into any of their bullshit-because that's exactly what it is. Bullshit. If you ever start wondering if there could be any validity to their ideas, come to any leftist sub or social science sub and have them debunk it for you. I doubt you'll have to worry about that though.

        when the government is one party and said party owns the means of production that's fascism , but i think i'm missing several pieces.

        That sounds more like state capitalism. Fascists believe in an economic system based around class collaboration and an "organic" national community called corporatism.

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          [–]BobbyGabagool 206 ポイント207 ポイント  (90子コメント)

          I don't think anybody is saying they're equal. Making comparisons is a completely fair thing to do.

          [–]n1c0_ds 108 ポイント109 ポイント  (89子コメント)

          (I have been banned from this subreddit for posting in this thread)

          But they are not even remotely close. It's fair to draw parallels, but to put them next to each other is downright ridiculous.

          [–]Rubberbabybuggybum 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          He's a white nationalist demagogue who ran a campaign on economic aggression while demonizing minority groups.

          It's not THAT big a leap. It's not like we're comparing Hitler to Justin Treudau.

          [–]sleepsholymountain 152 ポイント153 ポイント  (77子コメント)

          Why? Everything about Trump's rise to power indicates that he is a fascist who is perfectly capable of being the next Hitler or Mussolini. Hitler was in power for several years before he actually formally started putting people into concentration camps, and I'm sure a lot of people in Europe never thought he'd actually do that either. Frankly, your way of thinking is irresponsible.

          [–]UtterlyDisposable 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (9子コメント)

          He campaigned on white racial identity politics, American nationalism, and American exceptionalism. He energized his base by singling out a religious minority, even going so far as claiming that he was going to start a Muslim registry and possibly place Muslims in internment camps. He made solidified his base by convincing them that their voices were silenced by political correctness and that the country was being put in great peril at the hands of religious and ethnic minorities, as well as vague socially-progressive boogeymen. In the brief time that he has been president elect, he's assembled a cabinet of people whose only apparent goal is to consolidate power around him, and remove any checks on his power that might exist. Throughout his campaign he was throwing rallies that were policed by people who physically attacked anyone who appeared to be dissenting...

          If that isn't ticking an extremely uncomfortable number of boxes on the "is this person acting like Hitler" list for you, then you probably need to do some more research. A lot of people get very unfairly accused of being like Hitler or a Nazi in general, but in this one case the similarities are both significant and numerous.

          Quick edit: I almost forgot the part about how he has openly talked about both suing and imprisoning his political opponents.

          [–]n1c0_ds 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned by this kind of politics, but that it doesn't compare to nazism nearly as well as people think. I have expanded under another comment.

          [–]taterbizkit 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          More a comparison to 1930's Italy or Spain than Germany. He's already got a a cadre of volunteer browshirts firing guns in pizza parlors and yelling in churches -- sure, he's not behind any of that. Just that if he wanted to create an SA to roam the streets, these people would volunteer in a heartbeat.

          [–]taterbizkit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Yup, we got us a genuine "Donito Cheetolini"

          We might not be headed toward a fascist takeover, but if we were, this is what it would look like.

          No harm in saying "let's keep an eye on this and make sure it's not going there."

          コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

            [–]meur1 73 ポイント74 ポイント  (6子コメント)

            "Pure liberalism"

            It's literally not.

            [–]MeAndLazarus 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            lol, this confused me. It's fine to say it's not an apt comparison, but it's a real stretch to say that it's due to the liberalism (instead of progressivism or leftism), which in my understanding describes an economic worldview.

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]vacuousaptitude 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (10子コメント)

              Trump is absolutely an actual fascist. However he hasn't (yet) lead a genocide or instigated a war that killed tens of millions. It's correct to compare his politics to Hitler, because literally and actually they are both fascists. It's incorrect to say he is yet as bad as Hitler.

              If you disagree with my statement that Trump is a fascist, I definitely welcome your opinion. Using the definition below it seems fairly clear he checks all of the boxes.

              Fascism is "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

              [–]SheepwithShovelsAnarchist 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Fascism isnt "anything that's authoritarian, right-wing, and nationalistic." It's a specific system with unique attributes. Compare the writings of Gentile to what Trump has proposed and you will see many clear differences.

              [–]DankDialektiks 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Fascism isnt "anything that's authoritarian, right-wing, and nationalistic."

              That's not how he defined fascism, either.

              コメントをもっと表示する (8 返事)

                [–]fuckcapitalism2016 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (19子コメント)

                What we are dealing with now is "actual fascism". Just because there hasn't been a Holocaust recently doesn't mean there can't be another one in the future. And millions of people have been dying horrible deaths after the Holocaust ended in 1945 thanks to capitalism. And billions are suffering. It's not like after World War 2, the world became a nice and happy place simply because the Nazis were defeated. Why are you ignoring the elephant in the room with the neon pink ballerina dress? I agree that saying Trump is like Hitler is exaggerating because these two men are very different from each other(because Trump only cares about money, fame and power unlike Hitler or at least that is the image he is projecting). But Trump supporters are VERY SIMILAR to the people who supported Hitler.

                 

                And who gives a shit if we are exaggerating and hurting some people's feelings if doing so will help our cause? What is more important? Being 100% honest and extra sensitive to some people's feelings or fighting right wing fascism? If people see Trump as no different than Hitler, that is only a good thing. People should be scared so they will take action.

                 

                And the truth is, nobody is insulting anyone by saying Trump is like Hitler. This insult only exists in your imagination(and in the imaginations of the people who agree with you). Nobody is saying, the pain and suffering Americans(and the rest of the world) will have to suffer due to the Trump administration will be equal or anywhere close to the pain and suffering the Jews had to go through during the Holocaust. But pain and suffering is still pain and suffering. Right wing fascism is still right wing fascism. And like I said, who knows what can happen 10 or 20 or 30 years from now.

                 

                You should also keep in mind that everything the Nazis did was the result of them slowly gaining power over the course of many years. It didn't happen overnight. I'm sure a lot of people in the 1920s didn't see what was coming because they were too focused on the present and not on the future... And then it was too late. The right wing fascists today also have access to technology the Nazis could have only dreamed of and pretty much control most of the world today...

                [–]SheepwithShovelsAnarchist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                actual fascism

                No it's not. Fascism isnt "anything that's authoritarian, right-wing, and nationalistic." It's a specific system with unique attributes. Compare the writings of Gentile to what Trump has proposed and you will see many clear differences.

                [–]DankDialektiks 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                • Obsession with the former glory/greatness of the nation and a desire to go back to that.

                • Exclusionary nationalism

                • Violent rhetoric (against protesters, on torture)

                These are all attributes of fascist rhetoric.

                What we are seeing is the birth of American-style fascism.

                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                  [–]verypolitefriend 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (25子コメント)

                  Why should we approach anything this man said with anything but caution?

                  70 000 kids die today because of capitalism that fascist trump will continue to uphold - stop discrediting the lives of the poor and acting as if only european lives matter

                  コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)

                    [–]sleepsholymountain 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                    actual fascism

                    How is Trump not an "actual fascist"? Because he hasn't killed millions of people yet? Don't you think it's better to get prepared for that possibility now then to wait and see what happens? If anything, your attitude is pure liberalism, and it's extremely reckless and irresponsible. I can't believe this is the top voted comment in here. Are we being brigaded?

                    コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                      [–]nevar_rasict-IswarAllendista hasta que la patria se pierda 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (19子コメント)

                      Those who suffered and have died to fascist Trump supporters aren't legitimate? The scale is not the same, neither is the gravity, but the motivation behind the farce is the same.

                      [–]Korean_ChallengerMarxism-Leninism-Maoism 78 ポイント79 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                      the scale is not the same, neither is the gravity

                      By that logic a spilled glass of water is a tragedy of immense catastrophe equal to a building collapsing because there was loss in both circumstances. That's why we have to include magnitude. Comparing whatever damage was done by Trump supporters to historical Nazism is absolutely sad and absurd beyond belief.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                        [–]HydroksPhil Ochs 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Trump is a proto-fascist. There's no getting around it, and he has to be stopped by any means necessary.

                        [–]trustworthysauce 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        It is certainly not "Liberalism." You might think that this is unfair propaganda by democrats, but this is not anything related to a political philosophy based on liberty and equality.

                        [–]JoelMahon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        And of course that responding to Trump's brand of hate with violence is escalation and actually detrimental, unlike with the far worse Nazis.

                        [–]MURICCA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Mussolini then. Better?

                        What proper term should we use for discussing the extreme-right, hyper-nationalist authoritarian wing if not Fascism? If you can find me something thats not obscure or overly long, ill use it.

                        [–]LargeMonty 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        "challenge accepted"

                        /Trump, probably

                        コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                          [–]mediocremandalorian2deep4entryism 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                          Woah, what a great meme! It's too bad that there isn't a massive, popular sub for socialist memes, so that they didn't end up diluting actual disscussions in /r/socialism.

                          [–]RagarkPastures of Plenty must always be free 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I'm split on this. Sure it's a meme, but there's more discussion in this thread than any news article.

                          [–]PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZHammer and Sickle 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          This would fit well over in /r/FULLCOMMUNISM

                          [–]AnarchoSyndicalist12Sabo Cat 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I think that was what he was implying with his comment

                          [–]PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZHammer and Sickle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Oh. He said socialist memes and threw my sarcasm detector off.

                          [–]edixo1 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          ..Implying communism and socialism are the same thing..

                          [–]PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZHammer and Sickle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Socialism is the transitionary system between capitalism and communism so while they're not the same thing, they are related.

                          [–]edixo1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Its interesting how similar they are. Just looked up their definitions to find exactly what they mean so I don't make any mistakes.

                          Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

                          Communism: a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

                          It seems their difference lies in socialism being more nuanced while communism is more radical, and that socialism means owned OR regulated, while communism just means owned.

                          One can see where people get them confused considering how socialism can be communism, but communism can't be socialism. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the two subjects.

                          [–]PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZHammer and Sickle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          The key difference is that communism is a stateless, classless society, while socialism is a state consisting of the working class. Communism can only exist when most of the world decides to adopt it, while socialism can be enacted by itself.

                          This is why socialism is seen as the transitionary step, as Marx theorised that the world would eventually move towards communism naturally. It is also the reason why most communists will say that true communism has never existed- it hasn't.

                          I believe that a workers revolution is inevitable, as no ideological system has been permanent, and every oppressive system has eventually been overthrown, and violent revolution is the only way to bring about real change lest there just be a mere rebranding.

                          [–]karchster 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          r/socialismcirclejerk

                          [–]KeegstaMarxist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          The occasional meme reaching high in /r/all brings new people to the discussion. It's not like /r/socialism is flooded with them.

                          [–]yeezyforpresidentHammer and Sickle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Just lets beat em for good this time.

                          [–]Atrix89Marx-Lenin-Mao 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          LOL @ the liberals and reactionary concern trolls complaining in this thread, we have fought fascists before and we will do it again.

                          [–]dhays2000 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          The correlation of the two is remarkable. Stop Trump.

                          [–]Herman999999999Debate is Democracy 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (67子コメント)

                          Yeah, just kill misinformed working class people who grew up in a completely different culture from ours. It's not like we can compel them to believe there's another alternative. I'm brought back to a video I saw of that lady apologizing for yelling at Elizabeth Eckford during the Little Rock Nine crisis. Such hubris some leftists have that they can hold human beings to such low regard.

                          This is, seriously, a dangerous line of thinking. I'm ashamed this got upvoted.

                          [–]JaredOfTheWoods 71 ポイント72 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                          I agree with your sentiment but a lot of the #MAGA alt-right people are pretty disgusting and far from misinformed.

                          [–]War_Daddy 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          misinformed working class people who grew up in a completely different culture from ours.

                          What do you think most of the Nazis were

                          [–]GothCD420 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          who grew up in a completely different culture from ours.

                          Are you implying that none of us are working class ourselves? I don't know what culture you grew up in, but it's not mine.

                          [–]crossisbendingone big union 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          What do you mean "different culture from ours"?

                          These hardline fuckers are not "misinformed". They're just shitty people.

                          [–]paradoxicaleuAncom 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          The thing is that while there are many, many fascists whose heads I'd love to see become acquainted with the pavement, there are also a whole lot of well-intentioned, misinformed, misled, working-class people who honestly believe that Trump's policies will be good. These are the people to reach out to and convince, because they could be the driving force for the left if we only tried to convince them, instead of denouncing the whole lot and not even making an effort.

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                            [–]rylasasin 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (14子コメント)

                            it's not like we can compel them to believe there's another alternative.

                            When it comes to fashies, 99.999999999999999% of the time you cannot.

                            [–]Herman999999999Debate is Democracy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                            This is why everyone thinks we are frivolous Utopians that want to kill anyone we don't agree with. This thread is horrible.

                            [–]crossisbendingone big union 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                            Nah, man. The anime nazi, alt-right types want a white ethnostate. They're not misinformed or just in need of a good old debate club mix-it-up. They believe that some people ought to be slaves and others masters.

                            At some point, there's no talking left to be done.

                            [–]KropotkinWasRightKropotkin 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Maybe if we make a really convincing blog post we can get the plantation owners to free their slaves.

                            [–]NWG369Charlie Chaplin 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            That's true but they clearly do not make up the majority of Trump supporters. I'm from a very white, redneck area and while there are straight up white supremacists, most are just ignorant and have been easily mislead.

                            [–]crossisbendingone big union 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            I don't think we disagree. But I wouldn't call them "misinformed". They've accepted some nasty views.

                            Most of them can probably be brought around. A lot probably can't.

                            [–]NWG369Charlie Chaplin 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Yeah I guess that's the distinction I would make. A lot of the poor, rural whites can probably be made to understand the true oppressors and turn their anger towards them and not minorities. We shouldn't completely give up on working class whites the way liberals and the Democrats have. But we shouldn't tolerate their bigotry either. It's the alt-right dickheads who there's generally no chance of "fixing".

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                              [–]habs76human nature 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              You can't debate Nazis. Why are we having this discussion? They rely on emotion you can't beat someone when all they do is appeal to lies and emotions.

                              [–]sleepsholymountain 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              If you disagree with /u/rylasasin's comment, you literally do not understand fascism. What they just said is factually correct. It is not an opinion. I'm sorry this is distasteful and uncomfortable for you, but it's the truth.

                              [–]Herman999999999Debate is Democracy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              People who can't be compelled to believe in an alternative isn't the definition of fascism. Maybe you're describing basic bigotry? Because in that case you can influence someone to not be bigot, either through conformity, education, or experience.

                              Think of it this way. What happened to all those "bigots" who were vehement about their racism during the Civil Rights era? How many of them do you think changed their views? I remember seeing a video of the lady who was seen yelling at Elizabeth Eckford, during the Little Rock Nine incident, apologizing for it years later. That's also not to mention the countless former Nazi supporters who changed their views later in life.

                              If you were alive back then, I would be correct in assuming you would have advocate for their deaths wouldn't I? We shouldn't have such low opinions of human beings.

                              [–]dxtboxer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              You can't reason with Trump supporters.

                              It is literally outside the scope of all possibility.

                              I don't want them dead dead. But politically dead? Absolutely. We know what's better for them than they do; that's why intellectuals are always at the center of socialist and communist movements and make up the core of the vanguard party.

                              [–]esse_SA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Not disagreeing with you, but from personal experience, a few of the people I know who voted against Clinton are driven by fear- fear of poverty, fear of the loss of group identity, fear of the consolidation of power by global capital, and fear of loss of morality- fears that are symptoms of a dying empire. I've had a few positive conversations with people who did vote trump, held together by criticisms of state power and class inequality.

                              [–]LeftistRedneck 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (16子コメント)

                              Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs

                              [–]GreenJupiter 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                              So what....we're going to kill or hold a gun to any Trump supporter?

                              [–]RedditDelendaEst_ 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              I have working class friends that are showing hatred against minorities. They are misguided into thinking they are the enemy but I found they are pretty receptive to agitation.

                              Most of them can be educated successfully.

                              [–]DoBeTrippin 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                              It depends on how far Trump wants to take his fascism.

                              [–]Silvernostrils 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              only attack the actual fascists, among them.

                              [–]NinthOverlord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Hopefully things won't be so bad that we would have to.

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                                [–]ruminatingLibertarian Socialism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                nice

                                [–]Zecomm 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                There has been a massive influx of liberals in this sub lately, and the blanket labeling of trump voters as racists has come with it.

                                Now, don't get me wrong: Trump has undoubtedly empowered racists and facists, and we are all seeing them come to the forefront (ie: media coverage of the "fashionable/sexy altright figures). However, the majority of his voters are working class people, who were looking for someone who understood their situation. Neoliberalism failed them, and, while misguided, these workers turned to Trump for answers.

                                As people who vouch for the best interests of the working class, we need to stop slandering his voters. We are doing nothing to show people that socialism is the way by shit talking the working class. Socialists need to understand and listen to the plights of workers, or our cause will never be realized.

                                [–]loldiecracker 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                If you dont know your enemy or yourself you will lose every battle. Sun tzu

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