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Discussion | eSportsRelyks on twitter: A Unified Reply (twitlonger.com)

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[–]banjoskipLondon Conspiracy Fan 263 ポイント264 ポイント  (79子コメント)

How Andy felt blindsided by the letter once it was published on Reddit, we felt the same way upon learning of the PEA's plans.

Regi should understand this. I still think the players should at least have tried to talk to regi but I can see why the players feel this way.

[–]freefunnyjack 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Seems like a lot would have been solved if they just talked to each other. Pretty sad to see so much lack of communication from both sides.

[–]iRunLotsNA 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (15子コメント)

The issue is that it isn't that clear cut.

Reginald, as TSM's owner, no longer represents only himself, he represents the organization as a whole. A conversation with Reginald is not chatting with your friend to resolve an issue, it is speaking directly to the organization as an employee expressing discontent with what they're doing. The power difference in that conversation is immense.

By voicing their discontent together, the players remove a significant amount of the power differential in the conversation. If the organization decides to release their entire roster, another organization outside of PEA will gladly sign all of them.

[–]ACheiftain 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (12子コメント)

The players could literally just all get in a Skype call and talk to him as a team whenever they wanted if they were really scared of getting fired. Which I highly doubt had any chance of happening.

[–]iRunLotsNA 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (11子コメント)

They could, that is exercising their right to band together to speak out against unfair conditions in the workplace. This is commonplace in North America (I can't comment about its universality in other regions of the world, as I have no personal experience).

However, it is also common for workers from different companies to band together to do the same thing. Professional athletes do this all the time, see the NFLPA, NHLPA, FIFPro or any professional athlete union of your choice. By writing this letter with SirScoots, the professional CSGO players are taking a significant step towards what other professional athletes have already achieved.

[–]aussie_shenanigans 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly right. The problem comes when they made it public, and didn't approach him together in private. I understand both sides but there are proper ways to go about things if you expect a certain result and the way they did things invoked hostility and any smart person should have foreseen that. The thing is, if their group is to band together they should have also organised a unified response to the backlash and not the 10 different player responses we see now. Movements are only strong when people stick together, like a strike, there is a big loss of pay and uncertain future to take that action. If players want to go down this route they need to take at least a couple of punches on the chin before they expect to gain the momentum.

[–]iRunLotsNA 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a good point, but I feel the letter written in collaboration with SirScoots was more than enough of a unified response to anything moving forward.

Since they have not yet managed to achieve anything solid with their organizations in terms of a union, they are all still at risk of being threatened individually by the organization. The banding together of employees (or players!) is always going to invoke hostilities, as it goes against the personal interests of the organizations for them to do so. When being faced with the threat of a union forming, it is commonplace for the organizations to engage in union busting.

[–]onaprayer 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You do realize that orgs don't want to talk to their players about this. They believe they can do what they like, and that the less players know the better. Not many orgs are transparent and have player interests in mind. They are always more than likely to act in their own best interest.

[–]banjoskipLondon Conspiracy Fan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Agreed. I'm not sure the exact situation inside the org is when it comes to communication, but from my experience, being willing to talk before escalating the issue goes a long way.

[–]kaywalsk 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you have 5 people unwilling to bring something like this up to you, there's a possibility you're not an easy person to approach.

[–]banjoskipLondon Conspiracy Fan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This and some of the other shit surrounding regi does suggest that might be the case.

[–]tehcraz 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Regi is a very...overbearing personality judging by how I have seen him speak on prior streams when he was coaching/playing with TSM in League. I can understand why he would seem hard to approach.

[–]cracktr0 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

On the other hand, when you are the boss of 5 people who are super young, that itself can be intimidating. And I mean, Sean was on the team a week, he probably spent less than 2 hours with Andy personally if at all.

[–]BitcoinBoo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"just talking it out"

contractual terms in an emerging market where shady characters are attempting to manipulate the narrative...

let me know how that goes

[–]vesmololFaZe Clan Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They should have, but there's no guarantee it would've changed anything. Regi would've told them no like the other orgs told their players, TSM players sign the letter anyway, we end up here but without Sean sacrificing himself as a martyr to the case.

Doubt it would've actually changed anything, other than give less exposure to the issue due to Sean not getting removed.

[–]1337stocktraderiBUYPOWER Fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Pretty much this.

Also comrade Sean Gares went down for this. I found it funny how they used the hash tag "playersrights". Feels very left wing and almost like they wanna start a union. Feels like something I would convince my team to tweet. And after that #VivaLaRevolucion and shit :p

[–]sargent610iBUYPOWER Fan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The owners (regi) made their bed. They chose Jason Katz as their advocate and by proxy roped their players into the bundle. So Jason Katz goes and negotiates with EPL on their behalf(players/Orgs). The players dont feel Jason is honoring their wishes so they turn to Scoots as their advocate. Private talks with Jason stall so they go public in their open letter #playersrights. Then this whole TSM drama starts imo because regi can't check his ego. (Judgement based on my experience with him in LoL). If anything Regi should have addressed his concern with Jason Katz his chosen advocate. Or contacted Scoots the players chosen advocate instead he comes hat in hand trying to convince each of his players that their push for more power in the players hands isn't necessary. (read trying to break the "strike"). Instead of backing down Sean doubles down on his stance for more player agency within their respected orgs. Regi takes it personally and looks to replace him.

[–]StrawberryOverlord [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Which is why Sean can and should sue the living shit out of Regi.

[–]The2ndNeo 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

When did the players sign vs when the PEA plans were signed

Didn't Sean come way late compared to pea??

[–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

except nobody had any clue what pea was doing or what they were going to do, pea never told anyone what they were going to do.

[–]BitcoinBoo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

he understands PROFITS. PROFIT>Character

コメントをもっと表示する (8 返事)

    [–]DontLookAtMyStuff 187 ポイント188 ポイント  (15子コメント)

    Regi really emphasized that Sean "manipulated" the other players. It's important to note that the TSM guys are saying this was not the case whatsoever.

    [–]MilsberryTeam Liquid Fan 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    That was my takeaway. Regi seems to be saying Sean manipulated the team and this letters states the complete opposite

    [–]TxxNESOpTic Gaming Fan 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    theyre 4 adults able to make their own decisions, Regi is just finding a reason for getting sean off the team.

    [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    regi doesnt understand cs. many players are like this. if asked they will just roll with it. when personally they feel differently.

    [–]FullDerpHDTeam Liquid Fan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not just CS.. Young adults in general. Lets not forget that these guys are all still basically kids and that regi is literally their boss... Not just another guy.

    Naturally when he singles them out on a topic of this nature they won't maintain their unified front..

    [–]PostYourSinks 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    He has a reason, he's just reaching and including more reasons than there actually are.

    [–]Mustard_CastleAstralis Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He has no reason against Sean specifically though. His reason was he manipulated the rest of the team, but now they all agree that didn't happen. But it's still just Sean getting punished for something they were all apart of.

    [–]pavdog 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Crossposted from another parent comment on this thread:

    I think it is important to consider what Regi knew at the time he posted his twitlonger. From his perspective, and from the replies he had gotten from his players, it really sounded like Sean actually did try to control the other players. Now, I am not saying that is what happened, but all Regi knew of the situation was what his players had directly replied to him. And now this is saying that they were not telling the truth in their replies. Poorly handled from both sides, but I do not think it is fair to imply Regi "made up" the narrative, as from what his own players had told him that was very clearly what was happening, even though that ended up not being true.

    [–]Corregidor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Yo can this be stickied to the top or something?

    Im not sure how so many people are missing this glaring detail.

    [–]devtr0n 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    ya wtf it also makes shahzam and sick look like they were being pussies and threw sean under the bus

    [–]ACheiftain 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well from his perspective, that is literally what happened. If the players aren't going to tell him the truth when he asked to to begin ofc he is going to blame Sean for it since literally every single player on his team said Sean told them to sign it. None of the players owned up to it when first asked.

    [–]mogyesz09 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But for the sake of argument you can easily reverse it. If Regi is right and they are empty glasses filled with Seans agenda and opinion no way they would backpedal and admit it in a written PR statement done by someone else.

    [–]LudachrizNinjas in Pyjamas Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I guess he figured after having just fired one of the players the others wouldn't call him out on his lie, kinda stupid though since they would have to be actual scumbags to stay silent and let people think Sean took advantage of them.

    [–]lifehaver 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    From his point of view it honestly seems that way. Some players are dancing around and deflecting responsibility of the letter signing. There seems like a ton of back and forth when they really all need to sit in a room/skype call together and talk shit out. To me, it doesn't seem like all players were ever present together when signing it, just 2-3 people at a time.

    [–]BitcoinBoo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Regi: desperate

    Remember the whole SK thing with LG and the LG owner started lying with Fallen. I smelt desperation then and I smell it now with Regi

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]SirBlubbalot 248 ポイント249 ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Inb4 "ShahZaM, Twistzz and SicK were pressured to sign the letter by Relyks and did not read it"

      [–]LudachrizNinjas in Pyjamas Fan 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Meme game on point

      [–]Voltik 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Drama breeds memes.

      [–]forrman17Cloud9 Fan 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Relyks kicked.

      "ShahZaM and Twistzz were pressured to sign the 2nd unified reply by Sick and did not read it."

      [–]CSPsychic 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Twistzz is the only player left

      "Twistzz was pressured to sign the 4th unified reply by Twistzz and did not read it."

      [–]SirBlubbalot 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Reginald proceeds to fire himself "I pressured myself into signing the firing agreement by me and I did not read it"

      [–]mymindisweird 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      SicK kicked.

      "Twistzz was pressured to sign the 3rd unified reply by ShahZam and did not read it"

      [–]thyrfaVictory 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Nah we all know shahzam would be the one who gets "pressured", no loyalty

      [–]pzoDe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'm almost expecting it at this point

      [–]craftsparrow 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      They had a mumble meeting before the reply, so if it does happen it'll get debunked pretty quick. They were in the same mumble as all the Rank S players.

      [–]DamagePoint 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Relyks supports that the logs are from before Sean was kicked.

      Relyks says they were all in a call and have equal standing in the issue (reasonable considering they did all sign the letter).

      Shazam and Sick both say to talk to Sean (why would they name Sean particularly when both statements above are true?)

      [–]Banks711 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Relyks did say some players had more information than others, so that might be the case

      [–]wow_im_white 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yeah but still dumb of sick to say that he didn't even know what was happening, I'm glad logs were shown so people can be held accountable.

      [–]_Mister_Pickle_Office Veteran [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      If you read the end of this letter it is signed by shazam sick twistzz and relyks. Seems like possibly they all tried to save face when approached directly by Raginald. It would probably be pretty intimidating to have your boss come question you about how you have destroyed the companies image. It seems they all realized that this was something they really needed to stand for so then released this letter to stick with sean. I hope more people get to read this letter to better understand the situation.

      [–]DamagePoint [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      question you about how you have destroyed the companies image. It seems they all realized that this was something they really needed to stand for so then released this letter to stick with sean. I hope more people get to read this

      I agree with you 100%, my question wasn't why at all, my question was why Sean particularly.

      [–]cswithian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Probably because Sean is older, their leader, and has been playing pro cs for much longer than them. He's got much more experience being a part of big organizations and is also a leader, so it seems pretty logical to have him as their 'voice' or the person comfortable dealing with awkward conversations.

      [–]wickedplayer494 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      'An Excellent Reply'

      [–]hubCAPPSOpTic Gaming Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The hits keep comin

      [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      exactly they had no clue what pea was up to. the orgs and the association didnt want to tell anyone. the association still hasnt responded to anything

      [–]Sadgasm0 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Never have I seen a community flip flop this much in a situation. Seriously, I'm gonna stop checking the comments for useful insight.

      [–]StatisticcRenegades Fan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think most communities will do this when it's not particularly clear what the full story is and possibly inaccurate details are slowly dripping out to the public. Come back in a few days, maybe?

      [–]Saterra 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Remember that it's a big community with varying opinions rather than a single monolith. But yea in a situation where there's very little everybody knows to be 100% true, people just jump on what they want to hear and accept it as fact.

      [–]rdee3 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Bunch of TSM fans from LoL who worship Reginald and also watch CS are spilling over.

      [–]Kishin2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      People look at news but don't read. Ironic considering it's reddit.

      [–]GuttersnipeTVOffice Veteran [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      CSGO community is pretty pro-player. TSM fans and LoL sub subscribers are pouring in saying bullshit about nothing they know about. LoL is all run by riot, and players have very little choice as well as loads and loads of rules. Their LANs are such a fucking joke that they literally have referees (separate from admins) that are there to enforce certain rules. Its pretty apparent that Reginald is just used to this system and is trying to start a system like it in CSGO so he can capitalize on it like riot have capitalized on LoL. Greed turns people into shitty people.

      [–]Braindead-TSM-Fan 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      10 minutes later

      "I have benched from TSM for my twitlonger"

      [–]dogryan100GODSENT Fan 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      TSM drop all 5 and then Dignitas pick up ex-TSM (with Sean).

      Wet dream.

      [–]Thehacker4chanG2 Esports Fan 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      look at what Twistzz favorited lol

      http://imgur.com/eMeq5lX

      [–]hatefulemperorVirtus.Pro Fan 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That would have it come full circle. TSM picked up the astralis players from dignitas years ago. Now dignitas do the same with the current tsm players.

      [–]m1cksPhoenix 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Very possible, all 5 of the TSM players were sitting in Mumble earlier after a Rank S game.

      [–]bleak-outlookGodsent fan 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (39子コメント)

      To address some of the statements made in Andy's post, in no way were we manipulated by Sean. Some of us may have had more information than others or been more involved in this endeavor, but we all understood what we were doing when we gave the okay to put our names on the letter.

      Glad to see Relyks isn't completely fucking neutered like the rest of TSM.

      [–]kidajske 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (37子コメント)

      He literally wrote "a unified reply" and you are acting as if he's the only one responsible for it just because its on his twitter

      [–]equinox790Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (31子コメント)

      Look at the chat logs provided by the tsm owner. Shahzam literally said he didnt know about the content of the letter and so did Sick. Why are they jumping ships so many times?

      [–]Banks711 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (18子コメント)

      Shaz implied he knew that it was for the PEA deal.. He just said they didnt read it

      [–]FatalFirecrotch 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (17子コメント)

      And that is the problem. These players never read anything. They are only in this situation because they didn't have a professional read their contracts with them before they signed them.

      [–]Squally160 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

      How do we know that? were you there at every player signing? this contract might be a contract between TSM and PEA that says "you will play where your org tells you to" that the players didnt know about. As well, maybe its completely standard in CSGO contracts to have a "play where the org tells you" to clause, but it seems like if it is, this has never been enforced. players have seemingly always had the option to not play at events if they feel like it. At least, there hasnt been complaints about being forced to play certain things. This whole debacle a "in the past we were lenient, now were not" type deal coming down from teh top, which would make most upset.

      [–]FatalFirecrotch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

      Never, ever have anything in a contract you don't agree with. If you would be upset if the team told you where to play, don't sign it.

      [–]Squally160 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Are you well versed in CSGO player contracts? I dotn sign shit that I am not familiar with, but there are still shitty clauses you have to sign to be a part of certain jobs. I had to sign a bunch of non-competes and NDA's when I was oilfield. Did I agree with them? No. But my ass needed a job. this whole "Just dont sign it bro!" shit is annoying.

      [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      you dont have to read everything. they knew the general idea of the letter.

      [–]FatalFirecrotch 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

      You really should fucking read everything, especially it is potentially as big as this.

      [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      scoots wasnt writing their contract. he is just writing their ideas which they already told scoots.

      [–]FatalFirecrotch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      And then you review it. Never, ever, ever sign onto anything important without reading it. You just shouldn't do it.

      [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      do you not understand this is a simple letter. they knew what scoots was writing. and none have any problem with it now. most players trust other players to get their point across anyway they all have almost the same problems.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]LukissCloud9 Fan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        they're just trying to save face when being confronted by their boss. they squirm under pressure. they're kids. and shaz is shaz.

        [–]LikeAHardcoreSK Gaming Fan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        They confirm they didn't read the letter in this response. They do say they were aware of what the letter said in general, but didn't read it.

        [–]equinox790Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Please read the chat logs again. Shazam implied that sean was the one behind all this and made them sign the letter. In conversation with sick, regi says sean manipulated them, but sick doesnt say anything, so it made sean look like the villain.

        [–]LikeAHardcoreSK Gaming Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        What does this have to do with what I said? I didn't mention Regi accusing Sean of manipulation. But the allegation that they didn't actually read the letter sticks in both statements.

        [–]equinox790Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        its not about what he said, its about the implications. Shahzam implied in the first one that he had no idea what was in the letter and in this one he is one of the 4 people saying they knew what was in the letter. Wat?

        [–]LikeAHardcoreSK Gaming Fan 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        In the logs he still makes it implicit, albeit maybe not as clear, that he was aware of the general contents of the letter, but hadn't actually read it. This sticks with Relyks' statement.

        [–]stale2000 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Please read the letter at the very top of this page.

        The players were NOT manipulated. Full Stop.

        The players disagree with everything you just said. They support the letter in full.

        [–]Kishin2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Semantics. They're clarifying here that they all did know the tone of the letter and agreed to that but not all of them read the exact completed letter. Is knowing the tone of the letter sufficient as its "content?" Do note that none of the 26 players who have signed the open letter have retracted or regretted signing it.

        [–]rdee3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Shahzam has a perpetual life vest on, ready to jump ship and burn another bridge.

        [–]bleak-outlookGodsent fan 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        There's no fucking way Shahzam, sick, or twistzz was going to say this. Be real.

        [–]wYsockClan-Mystik Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        what do you know about sick and twistzz that we don't? sounds like a bs comment based off of nothing

        [–]bleak-outlookGodsent fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Well let's use our brains for a change. They are both 17 years old and probably are scared of losing their big-time contracts. Anything to appease Regi.

        [–]equinox790Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Also when in the chat logs regi said sean manipulated them, sick didnt say anything

        [–]craftsparrow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They were all in mumble together before this went out, so I'm assuming this one they actually did read.

        [–]pavdog 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Crossposted from another parent comment on this thread:

        I think it is important to consider what Regi knew at the time he posted his twitlonger. From his perspective, and from the replies he had gotten from his players, it really sounded like Sean actually did try to control the other players. Now, I am not saying that is what happened, but all Regi knew of the situation was what his players had directly replied to him. And now this is saying that they were not telling the truth in their replies. Poorly handled from both sides, but I do not think it is fair to imply Regi "made up" the narrative, as from what his own players had told him that was very clearly what was happening, even though that ended up not being true.

        [–]PaulBGD 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        So it looks like regi took the players' statements about not seeing the exact letter as them not knowing what they were signing.

        I can see why Regi is angry, making big decisions that have to do with the team/brand without consulting the boss man at all is really weird.

        But obviously the players have the right to be angry, since PEA is shit and all.

        Overall just a bunch of miscommunication (mostly from Sean's side I will admit) that turned into a bunch of anti-TSM drama.

        [–]rdee3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        If Reginald tweeted his responses to Sean publicly and didn't axe him, he'd have literally infinite positive press. Any grievance Regi has with "brand damage" is bullshit and he has himself to blame.

        And Scoots is the communication. When the orgs create an environment where the players aren't included in communication, I don't see why they shouldn't seek a more experienced third party. In all honesty, that should have been a union. But that's not here yet, so Scoots is the best they've got.

        [–]PaulBGD 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        From what I understand the players didn't bring it up with Regi that they were angry, which is where I think most of the controversy is? (that's a question btw)

        [–]rdee3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I mean, it depends on how much you want to buy into Regi's controversy. The players are bringing it up with Regi, they're just doing it through SirScoots. If Sean's response is to be believed, that communication started long before the letter was made public. It's controversial if you think the players' should represent themselves through a channel which TSM clearly demonstrates they have little power in.

        [–]GuttersnipeTVOffice Veteran [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        Its one thing to go behind your bosses back. However if your boss gave you no choice, then thats completely another thing. Its not some sort of master and slave system, its contracted employment and morality is something that needs to be taken into account.

        [–]PaulBGD [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        I made my initial comment when the story sounded as if regi wasn't contacted at all about the issue.

        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

          [–]schnupfndrache7iBUYPOWER Fan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Thanks for showing backbone

          [–]Thehacker4chanG2 Esports Fan 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          inb4 "Relyks has just been released for pressuring the players into signing this letter without knowing the contents"

          [–]LudachrizNinjas in Pyjamas Fan 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (23子コメント)

          Standard Regi making up a narrative to get sympathy, anyone who thought Sean 'manipulated' the other players is a moron, they all have minds of their own and obviously decided to have their names on the letter. I'm just glad they spoke out, for a second I was worried they would just throw Sean under the bus (which might have happened in private had Regi not released the logs of Shaz lol)

          [–]Kishin2 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (13子コメント)

          Says multiple times he's looking out for his players.

          Fires one of his players.

          Puts out public statement about how manipulative of a person that player is.

          • Reginald, owner of TSM

          [–]lifehaver 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Well he's not his player anymore :^)

          [–]bleak-outlookGodsent fan 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Yet everyone across other threads is talking about how good of an owner he is.

          Nah, I don't think so. Fuck this.

          [–]dekozeOpTic Gaming Fan 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Look at how little amount of flairs there are on the top comment chains praising TSM. Lots of people with zero history on this subreddit giving opinions as if they are informed and unbiased. TSM fans are culty as fuck.

          [–]XephyrXCounter Logic Gaming Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This saga stretches back the better part of a decade, ever since Regi was both head of TSM and the "Solo Mid" in "Team Solo Mid".

          [–]FaeeLOL 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          There are also tons of people who have been seeing dramas before and now rather than try to talk about it, just wait until the entire story comes out from as many places as possible. There is no way either side says the entire story in its fullest completely truthfully without taking a biased view. Its just easier to wait for a couple hours for both sides of the story, and probably some other sides as well to make any conclusions.

          As soon as I read the first discussions between Regi and Sean, I knew that Regi will definitely come out with more information, and Sean will do so as well. And yup, it happened, thats what happens every time some drama is boiling up.

          [–]Lupin123iBUYPOWER Fan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Based off what was told to Regi, he assumed Sean was manipulating them though. Shahzam and Relyks both said that Sean should be the one he should've been talking to because Sean explained it to both of them on what was happening with PEA.

          Why would he not fire one of his players if he thought Sean was trying to tarnish his team's brand especially when he hasn't been on the team for a week lmfao.

          If you were a boss and your employee you just hired does some shit that is tarnishing your company, of course you're going to want to fire him lmfao. They also amicably separated. Regi didn't even straight up fire him. He said that he was looking to actively replace him meaning he wasn't planning keeping him for long and maybe just wanted to trade him.

          If you want cases of where he's a good owner just look at his League related st uff.

          [–]Kishin2 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It's not rational. What would Sean gain from "manipulating" his team mates and driving the TSM brand into the ground? His response felt extremely hostile toward Sean as a person. It's like he viewed Sean as a undercover agent sent by ESL to undermine PEA and TSM. And a public statement like that as the CEO ultimately damages his brand. I can almost guarantee that Reginald will have a public apology regretting his attack on Sean.

          コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

            [–]pavdog 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I think it is important to consider what Regi knew at the time he posted his twitlonger. From his perspective, and from the replies he had gotten from his players, it really sounded like Sean actually did try to control the other players. Now, I am not saying that is what happened, but all Regi knew of the situation was what his players had directly replied to him. And now this is saying that they were not telling the truth in their replies. Poorly handled from both sides, but I do not think it is fair to imply Regi "made up" the narrative, as from what his own players had told him that was very clearly what was happening, even though that ended up not being true.

            [–]holmedog 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            This. So much this. Read the private replies posted. They clearly throw Sean under the bus. But now that it's public they're of coursed forced to say they don't feel that way.

            [–]MelGibsonDerpCloud9 Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Bro it's obvious Sean was just IGL'ing the team to sign the letter. /s

            [–]redditmodsarefascistTeam Liquid Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            ya, I knew nothing of reginald before this, but I now despise the guy. The way he's twisted this shit into sean being the bad guy is unfathomable to me when he's the one who didn't care about his future player's rights and agreed to some shit deal that takes away power from them. I'm honestly disgusted by the people defending him. I'll give him his due though, he's a master manipulator. look at how many of you idiots defend him.

            [–]LudachrizNinjas in Pyjamas Fan 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I think a lot of his defenders come from the league of legends community, he and TSM are a lot more popular over there and his tweets to sway public opinion usually works better.

            [–]FiftySentosTeam Liquid Fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Standard Regi making up a narrative to get sympathy

            Did you even read the logs? Literally both Shazam and Sick implied that they just went with what others told them. Go read over the logs again and tell me it doesn't sound like they were just going along what Sean told them to do. Both of them acted like they were ignorant and innocent of what was happening and said Sean told them to do it.

            [–]HypedUpChips [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Holy shit. You're actually fucking stupid lmao. Please get off the internet. You're absolutely pathetic. Stop talking shit when you know nothing about the situation. Typical braindead circlejerker.

            [–]BitcoinBoo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Standard Regi making up a narrative to get sympathy, anyone who thought Sean 'manipulated' the other players is a moron

            if you go look in the thread about sean's tweet there are thousands of morons who believe regi. pretty crazy

            [–]EleGiggleEleGiggleGODSENT Fan 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            I wonder where this ex-TSM lineup will go

            [–]iplaywowlulTeam SoloMid Fan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            ez dig

            [–]lolofaf 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            They signed it as the TSM roster without Sean. As of right now, looks like they're sticking

            [–]KevinSevenSevenAstralis Fan 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Which is really sad, I was hoping that roster could actually become semi decent

            [–]XephyrXCounter Logic Gaming Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Form a player-owned org. We'll call it...Astrelix...

            [–]dwaqueFaZe Clan Fan 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            lmao shahzam and sick look like the biggest rats now smh

            [–]thyrfaVictory 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Shahzam looking like a rat, who could have seen that coming. Not like he has any history with that :P

            [–]Banks711 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            well he just said in dazed chat that hes with sean and isnt playing without him soooooo

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]freefunnyjack 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Seems to me like they if they simply talked to Regi a lot miscommunication would have been dealt with. Don't know why they couldn't do that or Regi had been more up front. Seeing as how they all 4 signed together, it looks like they're staying together for now.

              [–]Twillz01Team EnvyUS Fan 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Actions speak louder than words. Going off of past and recent indicators, Reginald doesn't give a fuck about TSM's CS:GO team regardless of who is on it. Reginald is acting like his current players are stupid.

              [–]bebewow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Can someone reply to me with the full text? Having trouble loading twitlonger.

              [–]wickedplayer494 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              First of all, we'd like to say that none of us expected (and certainly none of us wanted) this to turn out the way it did. None of us foresaw some of the possible ramifications of the player letter, and in no way were we trying to undermine TSM or all that Andy has worked for. It was also in no way intended as a personal attack. We were just making the choice that we thought was best to build a better foundation for players rights and the future of our scene.

              Secondly, we would like to clarify that TSM has not mistreated us or anything of the sort but, everything in the letter was factual. Regarding Sean "manipulating" us to sign the letter, this isn't true. We all had a call with Scott (SirScoots) where he outlined the tone and messaging of the letter, and also it's intentions (that it wasn't meant to be antagonistic or a personal attack on any specific owner). Although several of us didn't get to read the letter, we all consented to having our names on it showing our support. In retrospect, we can understand how the hashtag #playersrights could carry negative connotation towards how we were being treated (that our rights were being infringed upon, etc.) The purpose of it was only to help build support and unite everyone's messages regarding the letter.

              We also acknowledge that in hindsight, we should have reached out to Andy to at least raise some questions about what was going on with the PEA. This works both ways though, and prior to the leak from DeKay we had not even the slightest inclination to what was about to transpire regarding the PEA. It was only after we received some context through our conversations with Scott that we'd been made aware of the circumstances.

              To address some of the statements made in Andy's post, in no way were we manipulated by Sean. Some of us may have had more information than others or been more involved in this endeavor, but we all understood what we were doing when we gave the okay to put our names on the letter. Also, the conversation logs with ShahZaM were before Sean was 'released'. We just want to make it clear that we weren't throwing him under the bus.

              How Andy felt blindsided by the letter once it was published on Reddit, we felt the same way upon learning of the PEA's plans. We felt pressured to take action and make a response, which we did in uniting in the player letter. We just wanted to write this to clarify any misconceptions and bring everything into the light. There are two sides to every story, and we just wanted to make sure our narrative wasn't skewed and was clear.

              Respectfully,

              • The TSM CSGO team:
              • Skyler "Relyks" Weaver
              • Shahzeb "ShahZaM" Khan
              • Russel "Twistzz" VanDulken
              • Hunter "SicK" Mims

              [–]scarypandasCloud9 Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              tldr: there were mistakes on both sides, regi didn't tell the players about pea and blind sided them, sean didn't manipulate or trick the other players in any way, but they should have talked to regi before signing.

              [–]Lord7777Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              TL:DR Andy is lying in his reply about manipulation

              [–]Jinxd0ta 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (6子コメント)

              I'm so fucking happy they came out with this. The #1 on all sean gares thread has a shitload of league players jumping on Regi's cock, acting like Sean manipulated TSM just b/c Regi acted like that. Why do people think Regi is a saint or is above throwing 1 person under the bus if not more in such a damaging media moment?

              Fuck Regi, ty TSM boys for not throwing Sean under the bus, and I hope we can all agree that this is the perfect example of why players unions are needed.

              [–]Lupin123iBUYPOWER Fan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Based off what Relyks and Shahzam told Regi, it seemed like Sean talked them into signing.

              They literally stated that Regi should be talking to Sean about this ordeal instead of them because Sean told them what was happening or that he knew more.

              [–]Squally160 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              TSM is some kind of saint org to these people, I donno why.

              [–]FiftySentosTeam Liquid Fan [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              because those people doesnt have an anti-organization hate boner. If you knew Regi's history, you would know he always treated his players very well. There had never been a player to ever speak ill of TSM when they had left the team in the LoL scene. Even in these posts, the players literally said they never felt mistreated by TSM or Regi.

              But apparently, being angry over the fact that your team publicly shamed you while not even bothering to voice their concerns to you personally first makes you a horrible human being.

              [–]Squally160 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              Except, according to the players, they did voice their concerns, and ask for more information about this deal that he didnt provide. His history might be the most perfect history ever, but we are talking about his current actions and the contradictions that are being brought up.

              [–]FiftySentosTeam Liquid Fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              The players also said they never read the letter and just went along with the flow. So which story from the players do you believe? The one where they knew what they were doing or the one they just followed the crowd?

              What are his current actions? Because it seems like he got a wrong idea based on what his players literally told him, which was they never read the letter and Sean told them to do it. One of them literally said he didn't approve of his name being on the letter, meanwhile, SirScoots' tweet states that every player agreed.

              [–]_Mister_Pickle_Office Veteran [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              I really wish the TSM fanboys all read this letter. Looking at regi's initial post in response to sean I thought that sean was in the wrong. But this letter I think has a huge impact on the situation. Sadly the players of TSM didn't originally stick with their new IGL and stand up to Regi but instead played dumb.

              [–]iRunLotsNA 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This is a genuine reason why the players need to get a union, there is an enormous difference in the representation available to the organizations in comparison to the players they employ.

              Despite player representatives in PEA, they could be easily outvoted in any decision by the organizations. Although they technically 'had a voice' in the process, nothing actually changed since their desires and views could be overshadowed by the desires of the organizations.

              The even larger concern now is the method by which the team owners are dealing with the situation. If what DeKay and SirScoots are reporting is true, the situation becomes even more dire for the players. If organizations are approaching their players one-by-one and forcing them to state that they had not read the letter before it was sent and essentially retract their expressions, they are directly threatening their players by holding their careers hostage in a situation where they have no one to speak on their behalf. This is exceedingly problematic in an environment where one party, the organization, is fully aware of rights and regulations, while the other, the players, are likely unaware of what is available to them.

              [–]HaggisMcGee 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Merry PEAmas, everyone

              [–]rdee3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Relyks gonna be the next suspect for manipulating the other three for signing the response.

              [–]Cameter44Cloud9 Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              How Andy felt blindsided by the letter once it was published on Reddit, we felt the same way upon learning of the PEA's plans. We felt pressured to take action and make a response, which we did in uniting in the player letter.

              Exactly. How can he expect them to come to him first when he didn't do that for them? Should work both ways if there is mutual respect and understanding between both parties.

              [–]deadcowww 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Judging from the screenshots of SicK and Shahzam that Regi provided, I really don't feel like this is a 'Unified Reply."

              [–]twokings13 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (18子コメント)

              Although several of us didn't get to read the letter, we all consented to having our names on it showing our support.

              Why would you consent to having your name on something without reading it?

              [–]RawrhockFnatic Fanatic 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (12子コメント)

              Because they generally understood what the premise and content of it was, and the wording likely wouldn't matter that much in the big picture.

              [–]twokings13 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

              Yeah but the conversations with Regi shows otherwise. Both Sick and Shazam stated they weren't very informed on the issue.

              Edit: I understand its very likely that they lied to Regi to save their own ass but my point is that you can't backtrack like this and expect it to mean anything. This unified reply means shit when they were so ready to throw Sean under the bus.

              [–]Lem-LemoncloakTeam Liquid Fan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              If being informed on might prevent you from having a salary, I wouldn't expect an 18 year old CS Pro or Shahzam to admit that they were informed on it.

              [–]dogryan100GODSENT Fan 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Because they were trying to save face and get on Regi's good books so they didn't lose their spot.

              [–]twokings13 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              It is totally believable but now you cant believe anything they say.

              [–]Jinxd0ta 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              i think now you can. they had no reason to tweet this. i'm sure they felt some regret over how regi was portraying the situation and so they came out about it. its clear that they were in agreement and regi wanted to rip sean for the sake of his team's public image

              [–]twokings13 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              they had no reason to tweet this

              Pressure from other players?

              There is proof of Shazam and Sick throwing Sean under the bus and are now apart of this response directly refuting what they said. No matter how you spin they got caught lying, either they knew what they were doing or didn't. Why would anyone believe what those two have to say now?

              [–]OffNos400k Hype 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              They wanted to save their asses.

              [–]shadex_xCloud9 Fan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              they understood

              [–]Based_RNGesus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              What do you think is more likely. Sean manipulated sick and shazam, then got fired, they came clean to regi, then got manipulated again to attach their names to this statement? Or that once Sean got fired they got worried about their jobs and backpeddled when they were talking to their boss. Just use some critical thinking man.

              [–]twokings13 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm only looking at the facts. We have no idea which scenario happened (although obviously one is more likely). All we know is that Sick and Shazam were part of the letter, then backtracked saying they weren't informed and just went with Sean, and now saying they knew what they are doing. Their word means nothing now.

              [–]Ajp_iiiOpTic Gaming Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              have you ever told your parents a lie so you stay on their good side. yeah thats what happened.

              [–]FatalFirecrotch 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              eSports players have shown repeatedly that they don't care what they sign to (Luminosity/SK, now this). The only reason this is a problem in the first place is because they didn't care about signing away control to what tournaments they can play in.

              For me, there is no fucking way I am signing onto a public letter calling out my boss that thousands will see without reading it and providing feedback.

              [–]twokings13 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              That's why I don't understand why everyone is siding with the players without any evidence. All we have so far is the chat logs and from what I've seen they haven't supported anything that the players are saying.

              コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                [–]patrickt1010 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The big issue is they're employee's. Regi is they're boss. If you're not willing to go to him and discuss this obviously it's going to look like you went behind the orgs back. It's a shitty situation but ultimately Sean wasn't released for his stance on this. He was released for being what is seen as a ring leader in something that negatively effects the orgs inner workings. Could've easily been avoided by both parties.

                [–]ChappyPappy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                dignitas just found their new team :)

                [–]skywayzCloud9 Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                So completely agree with this letter. But on another note, I'm not too sure what Regi was hoping to accomplish with this actions? If he was hoping for damage control with his brand, he is only making things significantly worse.

                [–]jxmonak 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                He was trying to make himself look like the good guy. He succeeded with a bunch of reddit kids, but the TSM roster is now firmly aligned against him. Verdict: Mission Failed.

                [–]Sabiancym -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                "We didn't talk to our ownership at all about our concerns....but....but he didn't read our minds to anticipate our concerns and talk to us first so it's not our fault. It's not like he's running a multi-million dollar organization with multiple teams in multiple games all with issues to deal with which might lead to something going unnoticed or anything.......oh wait."

                [–]K1Kingy 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                Well it's a good thing the owners talked openly and honestly about the plan to stop PEA teams playing in the EPL... oh wait

                Up until the point that it was leaked the players literally had nothing to communicate or complain about.

                Shit goes both ways ya'll

                [–]asiimanGuardian Elite 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Except a letter was sent to all team owners weeks ago about PEA.

                [–]CorsquesOpTic Gaming Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Keep it coming.

                [–]LucidWWGDOpTic Gaming Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Soon to be ex TSM FeelsBadMan

                [–]hoorayforcam 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                And people complained about the lack of games before next year lul

                [–]Davel66London Conspiracy Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                new memes FeelsGoodMan

                [–]KevinEaGodsent fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                tbh i think the respectfully part w/ the csgo team should've had sean in it, even more of a unified front, etc.

                [–]Brav0o 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Tomorrow's headline: "Breaking News: TSM drops CSGO Team and pulls out of Counter Strike"

                [–]lukasblod [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                "We also acknowledge that in hindsight, we should have reached out to Andy to at least raise some questions about what was going on with the PEA."

                This is step 1, fucking children.

                [–]xoTesfayeTeam Liquid Fan -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                It is called respect. You have a boss, you talk to him before you do shit behind his back. I don't agree with cutting sgares but there needs to be some better communication.

                [–]BlockFortsFnatic Fanatic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                This is different. Imagine your boss went behind your back and discussed what your future would be and what you could do and not do. The players had no clue of the PEA before DeKay leaked it. You would be pissed if your boss did that, and that's what unions are for, so that type of shit doesn't happen.

                Not to mention the players are what make the organization valuable. If these 5 players stick together they can easily get another org for the same pay. TSM on the other hand won't find a team this good for a while. It's why sports athletes are paid so much, their agents know that the players make the money, so they make sure their pay is what their worth. As much like in real sports talent is limited, a top player can easily get signed by another team, but a team can't always get a top players as they are limited.

                [–]proudopticfanOpTic Gaming Fan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                GG Reginald

                コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)