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I feel as a woman, we are still not seen as equal, but seen as children needed to be protected. (self.TwoXChromosomes)

Masseffectquarian が 投稿

I know there is this huge debate about sending women front lines. First off, I agree if women do not meet the physical requirements they should not be accepted and they should not lower the requirements for women.

However, I hate how they feel women are little children that need to be protected at all costs. If a woman is joined in combat, she is capable enough to fight. No need to coddle her. I'm saying this because I keep seeing people saying women will get in the way of objectives because men will risk protecting her. They act like it's an instinct that can't go away, but in the military, there is so many instincts that soldiers are trained to suppress, so why is the urge to "protect women" impossible??

I hope this "strong urge to protect women" is more social so that I know it can be changed :/

I read this from here

"In a similar vein, Melody Kemp mentions that the Australian military has also voiced similar concerns saying their soldiers "are reluctant to take women on reconnaissance or special operations, as they fear that in the case of combat or discovery, their priority will be to save the women and not to complete the mission. Thus while men might be able to be programmed to kill, it is not as easy to program men to neglect women."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_combat

It feels so insulting to not be seen as an equal... So it's easy to neglect a close friend but not women according to them...

Just feel so upset about it tbh :/

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[–]INTPnate [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If I had to guess, I would say it goes back to biology. Among many other things, the "protect the women" mentality stems from the fact that women's fertility time is shorter than men's.

One man can father more kids than one woman can mother. Making her less disposable.

To society, eggs are more valuable than sperm.

[–]LietusRain [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Just look at the difference in compensation for egg donation vs. sperm donation.

[–]kairisika [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's also a consideration of what work we're compensating a person for.

[–]senojsenoj [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

It may help you to understand that men and women are not equal. They are different and always will be.

Men get away with things women can't, just as women get away with things men can't.

There's also large evolutionary and social factors about men protecting women. I don't think it will go away any time soon.

[–]LerrisHarrington [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Not just what we 'get away with', we're built different. Different physical abilities lead to different realitiles.

The world record for deadlift for women is over 100kg lighter than the mens. When you start talking peak physical performance having your own built in steroids works wonders.

[–]misdirected_asshole [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Gender equality is in a metastable state. We currently live in a world where it is frowned upon to not treat with equal status, but also widely frowned upon to not do things like open doors or pay for dates. It's not straightforward at all. The ideologies are not directly correlated and they are not increasing/declining at equal rates. In short, shit's gonna be awkward for a bit.

[–]Masseffectquarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I understand they are different but should be seen equally and not as defenseless children that always needs protecting. If women chooses to be in front lines (which places have allowed), then she knows the consequences. She doesn't need to be coddled.

[–]Raspberries88 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

My experience with women assigned to my unit in basic was 1) they complained that they didn't have water in the field to wash as we were in mud and high heat (115 F) for days but we also weren't getting a new "water buffalo" (water tank on wheels) until the next day. They were allowed to take the remaining water while we needed to fill our canteens, 2) sex and blowjobs were happening along with breakups and jealousy which created discord in the unit, and 3) they were allowed to cheat on the Physical Training Tests even with the already lower standard for females. I was later in a combat unit, artillery (155mm Self Propelled M109), and everything in that unit was heavy. The shells were 100 pounds on average as it depended on the shell type, the generators were heavy, much of everything weighed over 50 pounds including our packs. We were in the field for 10 days without showers, toilets, minimal sleep, and everything was steel so it is not comfortable but we had great unit cohesiveness as drama was non-existent. Add in sex and relationships and there will be drama and discord which is a recipe for disaster.

[–]niktorok [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

One of the army's core parts is that everyone is the same; it aims to make everyone the same efficient unit.

The army is mostly men. Like it or not, as a woman, you're fundamentally different from the rest. That undermines integrity and is undesirable.

There are many causes (male/female psychology, biological differences, whatever) that make this an issue. It's not a morality thing but simple practicality.

Also, in my experience, men are more seen as disposable than women. (The last part is purely my opinion so take it with a massive grain of salt).

[–]Halp. Am stuck on reddit.AnElaborateHoax [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah, I get it. Women don't want any sort of exceptional treatment. We just want the same opportunities. Incredibly frustrating.

[–]Walrus_Baconn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Recon and special operations are usually done by elite units anyway which women don't meet the physical requirements for. Have the same opportunities but you're a lot less useful in combat if you're a 5'4 100lb person, regardless of whether you male or female.

Israel did a study on combat effectiveness of units and mixed units ranked last. If there are people's lives on the line it's amoral to increase the risk of soldiers dying just so a woman can be proud she has a low paying job where she gets shot at.

I can't think of a less desirable job than being a soldier, atleast be concerned about the lack of women in desirable professions.

[–]cplanedriver [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's not really a gender role than you can flip around like a guy being a house husband, it's thousands of years of evolution that have wired men like that. Men will try to save other men also. They don't necessarily go after women just because they're a woman that needs saving.

There are guys who are more prone to it than others, and to greater degrees. Think about all the guys who will go in and stick up for a girl in the comments section of a forum, your typical "nice guy." Not exactly a situation I would want to find myself in in combat.

[–]Walrus_Baconn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's more the fact that in a tribe, men who protect women increase the reproductive potential of that tribe. So the genes that increase instincts to protect women are propagated as tribes that protect their women to a greater degree are more likely to reproduce.

In a tribe of 20 women and 20 men, if 5 men die in a confrontation with a bear or something, there is no reduction in the potential number of children this tribe can have if resources are abundant. However if the men and women fight together and are treated equally and say, 3 women die, you've just reduced the maximum number of children that tribe can produce. Because it takes one woman a lot of time to carry a child. But one man can impregnate a lot of women in a short time.

Hence the reason why we're all genetically programmed to protect women. The same reason why when a group is presented with danger, men naturally form a wall to put themselves between the source of the danger and the women.

[–]PoeticallyInkorrect [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Would not want to be protected by a physically capable man if you needed it in a certain situation?

[–]Masseffectquarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Like I said I'm not saying men shouldn't protect women, but it shouldn't be something that stops them from accomplishing a mission because women are innocent children.

[–]PoeticallyInkorrect [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, if the mission is one that requires a fortitude for great violence, and the ability to kill on command while having the physical strength to protect yourself against a full grown man, then maybe it would stop them.

[–]WrenchSpinner92 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The Israelis studied it extensively and found that the hierarchy of performance for combat units goes like this male units>female units >mixed units.

I can tell you from my own experience in the armed forces deployed women generally speaking make terrible team mates. We had 3/5 that I can think of get conveniently pregnant in country and get a free ticket home no questions asked leaving us short handed. Like they say "2 is 1 and 1 is none" meaning you can expect about half of your female contingent to make it through deployment, but in all fairness one of the others was perfectly competent and the other was an amazing engine technician.

And no you can't kill the innate male instinct to protect women nor should you want to. The species would not exist without it. You have no idea how much better your life is because men built an entire world to coddle and protect girls. Washers and driers were built before masks for miners. You have no idea how it feels to have absolutely zero inherent value, to be a man is to only have the value you created. A woman's value just is.

And of course there is no gratitude for the Herculean efforts of thousands of generations of western men who sweated and died to make western women the most pampered creatures in the history of the planet. Instead it's whining, and it's complaining, and it's grasping, and it's shaming.

[–]Masseffectquarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Times are changing and we should see them as equals. Yes I understand if a woman doesn't meet the requirements, then she shouldn't participate at all, but if there is one outlier that's strong enough, then I don't see the problem. Times are changing and it's time to stop seeing women as children. Thanks god there are other people that believe the opposite of you

[–]How_do_you_choose [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Clearly men are too nurturing and emotional to be in the military if they are literally incapable of focusing on a mission when women are present. In addition, almost all rapists in the military are men. If we wanted a focused group with good teamwork skills and unlikely to rape their fellow soldiers, we should ban men.

[–]timus654 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So... you'd rather not be saved is what you're saying?

[–]Walrus_Baconn [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

so why is the urge to "protect women" impossible??

Because men are programmed to defend women.

In a tribal setting they are programmed to defend women in the same way they defend their family. Because young women have the highest value in a community whereas men are relatively disposable and if they die fighting off attackers the genetic material of their partner/kids/tribe can carry on without them.

A tribe that prioritises protecting it's women is going to survive and procreate at much higher rates than a tribe that treats women indiscriminately and lets them die in the face of danger as much as men.

It's like trying to deprogram a father from defending his kids, he doesn't have to think about it, he just does it instinctively.

The problem is that men and women just are different. And in general women aren't as suited to combat as men.

On another note, why do you care, it's not like the military is a paragon of virtue in any country, it's a pretty archaic idea for states to have armies and send them around the world, and one that we should be moving away from.

It feels so insulting to not be seen as an equal... So it's easy to neglect a close friend but not women according to them...

I think there are way more important issues facing women today. In the first and third worlds, there's so much other shit you should be focusing your energy on instead of this mundane shit.

Tbh you should just get over yourself, I'm so sorry that women can't sign up for a low paying job where they get dehumanised by drill sergeants, then shot at and bombed and are expected to kill people. It's a job that the lowest rungs of society do because they have no better job prospects or have been brainwashed with mindless patriotism.

[–]Masseffectquarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

But in the military there are other instincts a man has to suppress so it doesn't make sense why protecting women is impossible. And you should be able to protect everyone, and not pitty them and irrationally protect like children. I believe this "instinct" can be supress.

[–]FunPositive [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

And you should be able to protect everyone, and not pitty them and irrationally protect like children. I believe this "instinct" can be supress.

It probably can, but it won't be possible so long as there is an unstoppable push for special exceptions to be made for them, even if the specific women in question are not among those making that push.

[–]Masseffectquarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Then they shouldn't need special expectations either.

[–]Dsajames [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Right because suppressing instincts is the way to go when working with them is far easier.

When you talk about things being not impossible, it sounds very academic. Much better to just see how the independent units perform over time and how a limited number of mixed units perform. Why would you want to force something that hasn't been worked out in combat for political gain? What is your objective? Did you get refused front line combat? Money? Respect? Path to something else more lucrative? I'm curious. In a business yes, the clear message is access to money and power. What is the goal here?