Western women, help me understand

benthebull · 6時間前

Canadian...

I'm not sure how to respond exactly but the biggest feminist issue that I'm aware of as a real issue that is being addressed on a national level is missing and murdered indigenous women. Many many indigenous women are murdered or go missing in Canada without any explanation, or arrests. This has been a big movement for 14? Years.

The issues you talk about are only things I encounter on reddit or social media. I've never encounter those issues IRL. Or people trying to argue for or against them IRL.

GenericUsemame · 8時間前

It is my opinion that those are not widespread movements in the US- I have never heard a person refer to them in my presence in real life. Most people, other than the proponents, consider them to be non-funny jokes, really.

A lot of women are feminist here, but mostly they talk about the glass ceiling, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.

Edit: And abortion rights.

notsoinsaneguy · 9時間前

A big part of it is that it is much easier to enact change locally than globally. I'm sure if you asked any of the people in a free the nipple rally if they thought it was as important as the more basic freedoms you describe they would all say no. However, I think for most people living in the west it can often be very difficult to figure out how one can actually help people in a global community. I don't think many people believe that the Pakistani government cares what protests are happening in New York.

veniceinperil · 9時間前

It's not that we're unsympathetic; it's more that the West seems remarkably unable to influence the Middle East in any way, not just women's issues.

kavihasya · 8時間前

While I personally (and most Western women) are not particularly enthusiastic about any of the causes that you mentioned, I would like to provide some context because these causes are connected to larger ideas that you might recognize.

For instance:

Free the nipple has to do with a specific way that women's bodies are objectified and commercialized in the West that is problematic and different from the way that women are objectified in predominantly Muslim countries. Women are often harassed here for breastfeeding in public because this is seen as an indecent (sexual) act. While this isn't as important an issue as women being harassed for showing her face or driving, it does serve to limit women with infants and keep them out of the public sphere, and reinforces the idea that womens' bodies are primarily sex objects for the consumption of men, and do not have other, more important purposes. Most Western women do not want the right to show off their nipples, but some women believe that if we normalize nipples, we can desexualize them (much in the same way that people don't tend to sexualize hair and collarbones in the West the same way they do in predominantly Muslim countries) and give women here more freedom to live their lives (and feed their children) in public.
Menstruation and lack of available hygiene products is a barrier to school attendance for girls in parts of the Global South. While Western-led organizations (such as the WHO) are highly invested in supporting girls' school attendance, the hygiene issues have gone largely unaddressed, because of Western squeamishness about discussing menstruation and its role in reducing women's access to education. Showing off menstrual blood is designed to be a confrontation of the Western taboos about menstrual blood. The idea is that if people put it out in the open, it becomes something that can be talked about for more important purposes, instead of being ignored out of a sense that a normal female bodily function is a source of shame.
Manspreading/mansplainning. These are much pettier but have to do with noticing the public sphere, and the differences in how it's used by men vs. women. The problem of manspreading isn't so much itself, but the way that its connected to the idea that public spaces are for men, and that women need to constantly accommodate them and put up with uncivil behavior from men in various forms. Similarly, mainsplaining is a problem in the way that it (if and only if it is an accepted part of discourse) allows men to talk over women and deny their experience and expertise. Being a fully-accepted member of society means having a voice and being allowed space in public, so creating and enforcing a social cost to boorish behavior is a way of reclaiming the right of women to have space and a voice in the public sphere.

None of these issues are anything close to the scale that women face in the Global South, but they aren't completely disconnected (although I can see why it would seem that way). It is a privilege to be able to fight much smaller battles because the larger battles have in many cases been won.

Keep in mind, that no one considers these to be serious feminist issues. The serious ones have to do with access to healthcare, rape, and maternity leave.

paragatabanaba · 9時間前

I'm reminded of this article I read recently about Malala Yousafzai. It talks about how the media covers her in general, and makes the interesting point that the word "feminist" is almost never used to describe her. What Malala does, fighting for the right of girls to go to school, is a fundamentally feminist cause. But because she's fighting for the rights of girls in Muslim countries, nobody even considers using the word "feminist". It's the old "Feminism is for white women" story.

feliznavidadus · 8時間前

When I do my laundry, I focus first on the chunks of mud stuck to my clothes. Then I try to scrub out the big stains. Then I wash all my clothes, the lightly used and heavily soiled. Then I iron out the wrinkles, mend loose buttons, and cut off stray strings.

When I study for an exam, I learn the core concepts. Then I study the details, memorize exact values and dates, look up facts that interest me and connect the information together.

When I write an essay I put sentences on paper. Then I format paragraphs, make sure the work flows logically, edit for spelling and grammar, and choose more elegant words.

When I fight for equality, first I make sure women are considered people, then I fight for their right to vote, go to school, and have jobs. But I don't stop there. I don't stop until the idea of women being less than men is absurd. And I am reminded every day that many people do not think that way. So I fight for the right to walk down a street and not be catcalled.

turingtested · 8時間前

I'm a 30 year old feminist in the US and I'm very frustrated with the most visible aspects of feminism. Obviously you face much greater challenges, but in the US our serious issues (single mothers and their children in poverty; the lack of paid parental leave; violence against women) seem to be pushed aside in favor of matters of taste and etiquette. It seems very frivolous to me.

I think there are a few factors at work. A lot of people are first exposed to feminism during college, and many colleges are privileged environments filled with immature people. The issues that they first grasp and broadcast seem pretty silly to those in a less privileged position.

Second, a fair number of people who espouse radical views are not in it for the beliefs. They like having a reason to say and do outrageous things, and/or enjoy a sense of community and belonging. As a result, the focus is on feeling good and personal expression rather than deeper change.

Third, it's much, much easier to photograph your menses and complain about mansplaining than to make real change. It's easy to feel powerless, and making political phone calls and organizing can feel like nothing is happening. OTOH, there's a sense that your post might actually change someone's mind, and that's gratifying.

I wish I had something constructive to say, but all we can do is hope that people mature, and realize that there are bigger issues we all face.

IamRick_Deckard · 8時間前

It is a problem, however, to say that "because someone has it worse somewhere else, I should not care about inequality in my daily life." So women in the West should sit down and shut up about their rights until women in Pakistan can go to school? That just seems like another form of control.

RCxmasPterodactyl · 8時間前

Super simply put: for the same reason we didn't stop pursuing medical advances once penicillin was discovered. Sure, women's issues faced outside of the west are often more severe. And I feel you might think that we should be grateful for what we have (and I think most are). That does not mean that we should accept what is left of inequality. You can't stop at 50%* and call that equality. I agree that some of the issues do seem superficial; mansplaining for instance. But it is a symptom of women being seen as less intelligent or informed, and that is a prejudice worth dealing with.

*obviously made up percentage.

HighOnGoofballs · 8時間前

Short answer is simply because things are worse somewhere else does not mean you can't change things at home.

They are all valid.

missintent · 8時間前

I think all of the issues - free the nipple, manspreading/mansplaining, having the right to show your face, having political and economic equality - are all different points along the same spectrum. In all cases, it's people fighting for women to be considered equal in all facets. Unfortunately, in some countries the fight is much farther along then others.

People tend to connect with issues that they personally experience or see those they personally know experience. The idea of not being able to show my face? I have no concept. Mansplaining? Been there, seen that. I have no idea how to help women in the middle east. But I can step in if a male coworker talks over a female coworker. It doesn't mean that your plight is unimportant or not completely awful; it just means that I connect more with what I see and deal with on a daily basis. And I cannot do things to assist in your plight, but I can do something to help my coworker.

Snoozebuttonlover · 7時間前

I would like to add that in my experience, these 'Western movements' you mention are predominantly North American. I've not yet seen anything about menstruation or nipples in my country in North-Western Europe.

BarneyFifesSchlong · 6時間前

Remember that a lot of perception is based on media coverage. While the "Freeing the Nipple" movement may have thousands of supporters, the menstrual art movement was only a handful, if that. And if I may say, support of women's rights in the Global south is in the hundreds of millions. I can completely understand your confusion. It's like living in a desert, with water scarcity and then being told that people in the US are upset that they can't water their lawns 4 days a week. To extend the analogy, everybody deserves as much water as they want. If you want to wear a full burka, or my daughter wants to wear a bikini, you both should be free from persecution. Good luck and God Bless.

Flask_of_Amontillado · 7時間前

This isn't an oppression contest. Every country has its own issues to face and overcome and each does so at its own pace. Some countries are more ahead of others and some are further behind. Fighting for our freedoms does not negate championing for yours. We can do both. But generally, we all fight strongest for the issues that directly affect our daily lives first, before fighting for issues that do not directly affect us and happen in other parts of the world. It's the equivalent of "putting the oxygen mask on yourself before helping others on an airplane" idea.

coffeepaint · 8時間前

You're correct: these are not mutually exclusive things. Some people can work on the world's big problems and some people can work on the world's trivial problems.

0tterpop · 6時間前

Your struggle for equality is not undermined by the things western women struggle for. It's like saying a woman shouldn't leave an emotionally abusive relationship because he isn't beating her. All struggles are valid, and we are all working towards the same goal, the difference being that women in the western world are simply farther ahead in their fight.

starsrprojectors · 7時間前

I am a little curious about your choice of Western feminist causes. Freeing the nipple, menstrual blood; and mansplaining and manspreading are some of the issues I hear about least, especially when compared to sexual assault, equal pay, and abortion access. While I do not necessarily disagree with advocates for freeing the nipple or arguing against manspaining, it does strike me that these might be the causes that conservative societies, like those in the Middle East/Central Asia, would use to delegitimize feminist causes. Is that what is happening and is this a big reason for your frustration with these causes in particular?

nothingtoseehere28 · 6時間前

I don't think you're getting an accurate picture of what the average person is actually doing to support women/women's causes. For example, I've never participated in "free the nipple" or complained about manspredding etc, (nor have any of my friends), but I have been active in things like reproductive rights, supporting shelters, supporting local organizations that help working poor/single mothers, spreading information about accessibility and promoting better access to prenatal and postpartum care. These are all issues that are important to me - they are different than the issues you face, but they're what's relevant here.

The other problem I think is in a lot of ways we are coming at similar problems from completely different sides. For example, I'm in Canada, and in the last year there was a lot of debate over the niqab and if women in Canada should be allowed to wear it or not. It brought up a lot of issues about consent, choice, indoctrination etc. The perspective of a woman in Canada wanting to wear a veil (or even hijab) is very different from a woman in the middle east who has no choice, so obviously a "one size fits all" global stance on the matter isn't going to work.

zeePlanck · 6時間前

In my life I have come to discover that suffering and pain is a subjective matter.

This is not because different things are the same, but rather because people are limited in their empathy by their personal experiences. It is a sort of Dunning-Kruger effect.

I believe that women that are protesting against sexist matters that are, objectively, more frivolous than the repression you are living are, in principle, doing the same thing: telling the world that they should not be ashamed for being women and having a woman's body.

The point is breaking boundaries where they are found. If in a society the boundary is "never being able to make your point in a business meeting because you are being constantly interrupted", you fight against that.

It is up to YOU to break the restrictions of your own society, as western women have fought to be able to wear pants, to be able to vote, to be able to attend university, to be able to take birth control, to be able to wear what they want. Western women were not allowed to own property, and, once married, everything they would inherit from their parents would pass directly onto the husband.

In the times of Thomas Aquinas women were regarded by Christianity to be lesser than animals.

Up until a few decades ago, there were laws in Italy that allowed a man to marry a woman without her consent if he could kidnap and rape her and offer a reparatory wedding to "save her dignity" .

Western women throughout the ages have fought for the rights that they have now, to liberalise their sexuality, their independence and their right to be regarded as a human being, just as a man is.

Furthermore, what impact do you think it would have in your society if, let's say, Scandinavian women protested against the hijab? They would be told they are being inconsiderate towards the cultural freedom of others. And, if not, your men would just think "these white women be crazy, going around with their hair out and paying taxes" and leave it at that.

It is up to YOU to break the stereotypes in your own society because it's the best mediatic way to bring a point across. It's YOUR TIME TO SHOW BALLS. Western women have been beaten, imprisoned, tortured and killed throughout the centuries for this. You can do it too. And all of the world's women's heart and respect will go to you, but it's a battle that simply cannot be fought FOR you.

feliznavidadus · 8時間前

Just because someone else is worse off than me doesn't mean I should be content with a shitty situation. And fighting for the lowest common denominator instead of raising everyone as high they can is communism. My foremothers didn't fight for me to be complicit in my situation.

Frogs4 · 7時間前

It shouldn't matter that someone, somewhere is worse off than me if I want to change a particular thing I am unhappy with. I would like to reassure you that it is unlikely that us Westeners, with our equal pay and dressing in see-thru clothes campaigns, looked at your stuggles and thought they were less important. Most off us tend to deal with what affects us directly, at least to start with.

I also find that the argument that 'women are being killed in other parts of the world' is used to silence any female campaigner in UK or US. These types of people have no interest in helping anyone, they just want women to shut up and this is an insidious way of doing it.

Biyorne · 9時間前

I think in a lot of cases, they don't realize how different the situation is elsewhere in the world, or have no idea what they can do to help. To many, the trivial matters could be seen as weeding out the sexism that still remains here, despite it being nowhere near as bad as in the global south.

Afinkawan · 6時間前

You know what? I bet that there are thousands, if not millions, of women worse off than you personally. Does that make your concerns, fears etc. invalid?

Of course it doesn't.

Does it mean you're wrong to fight against injustices in your own life/country just because worse ones might be happening elsewhere?

Again - of course not.

Wrongs are wrongs no matter where they are or how insignificant they might seem to others. I've no doubt that some women living in a warzone in constant danger of being raped, enslaved and killed would happily swap with you if all it required was covering their face to be relatively safe, have food and water, electricity and internet access etc. Having to wear a piece of cloth must seem trivial to someone who hasn't eaten properly in several years.

Does that mean your issues should be ignored until you are the worst treated woman in the world?

Yet again, of course not.

It's just not how progress works. There's no priority list, no having to wait your turn before you're "allowed" to care about your own situation. No limit on the number of areas that can be improved at any one time or agreed standard that once reached means that no further improvement is allowed.

If there are people better off than you and they're still fighting to make things better and fairer, that's a good thing because - though there will always be inequality - little by little we raise the world as a whole.

juanml82 · 6時間前

Global south my ass. You know what's also in the "Global South"? South America. You know what happens to a woman who breastfeeds in public in Argentina? Absolutely nothing. You know what happens to a woman who shows her face - and legs and cleavage - in South America? Absolutely nothing. You know what happens to a man who brags about burning a woman's face with acid in front of strangers in South America? He gets beaten the crap out of him.

Are there gender issues in South America? Absolutely, and they vary from country to country and region to region. But don't come to equate your backwards repressive societies with liberal, if economically poor, democracies like ours.

FunWithAPorpoise · 7時間前

The inherent paradox of American liberalism is trying to respect Islam as a religion of peace and simultaneously condemn the barbaric treatment of women in the Middle East, often done in the name of Islam. As soon as you try to argue one point, someone brings up the other point and you're either labeled racist or sexist.

TL;DR: Being a liberal in America is confusing.

hyene · 6時間前

I expect angry responses. I truly am not trying to be antagonistic or undermine any group of women. It is just extremely difficult to comprehend how these issues are considered revolutionary when there are much more deeply rooted problems, particularly economic and political, that should be at the forefront?

Do you not think baring your (female) nipples in public in the United Arab Emirates is a revolutionary act?

Sounds pretty fucking revolutionary to me. A woman would be murdered in the street if she bared her breasts in public pretty much anywhere in the Middle East.

Women fighting for their right to bare their nipples in America lends support and validation, sets precedence for women in the UAE to bare their nipples too. To have full autonomy over your own bodies.

It's an act of SOLIDARITY for women all around the world.

Not too long ago, thousands of women were burned at the stake, mutilated, tortured, drowned and murdered by religious extremists in America too.

You are not alone. The middle east is not alone. Africa is not alone. India is not alone. China is not alone. Abused children, women and men in America, Canada, Australia, and Europe are not alone. We are all in this together.

rrickitickitavi · 7時間前

Are men allowed to comment? This is one of the most thought provoking questions I have ever seen on Reddit. I could understand how a lot of the goals of feminism in Western countries might seem trivial to oppressed women in other parts of the world. And I do feel like women in muslim countries are by and large oppressed. It's important to understand that women in Western countries got their rights by agitating and demanding them and the fight is still ongoing. In the United States women are still marginalized to an extant. Heck, Hillary Clinton's defeat to an obviously unqualified oaf is proof of it. So feminists don't believe that the fight is over. While some of their goals might seem trivial, they are about achieving a larger point. That's how agitation works. You move an object little bit by little bit. The free the nipple thing is about confronting objectification. I don't know if the menstruation thing you mentioned is even real. As far as mansplaining, that's an effort to fight back against being marginalized. It's actually something that might be an effective starting place for a feminist movement in the muslim world. If it's not possible to demand full civil rights immediately, why not at least start attacking the presumption that men know more than women? We're all rooting for you.

dripdropJuvia · 7時間前

If one woman is sexually assaulted and another is raped, does the former woman's ordeal lessen in the face of the latter? No, they are two separate violations that happen to two separate women. Western society has many issues that are being confronted. Whether they are minor in comparison to issues in the M.E. don't affect the need for change.

I agree that the West needs to better keep their nose out of the M.E.'s affairs. There is solidity to the argument that your society is so backwards because we caused it. Change should come from within, whether for an individual or for society.

My heart hurts for the trials women have to endure in your society. I support your causes and have hope that your society can evolve enough so that future generations of women have to fight for more trivial matters. You are warriors paving the way for the future and I commend you on that.

Edit: I wanted to add one more point. I am a Christian and a while back read an article about Western society Christians claiming they are being oppressed and are martyrs because of it. The article made the valid argument that these Christians do not know what it is like to be oppressed or to be a martyr when minority Christians in other countries face persecution and death for their religion.

With that in mind, I think that while what Western women are fighting for is still valid, it does need to be kept in context. Issues that Western women face can still be considered important but should come with the understanding that these women aren't taking up issues that will get them killed or thrown in jail like their predecessors and like women in other parts of the world.

zlide · 6時間前

Unfortunately OP a lot of the issues you're describing in the Middle East many here write off as byproducts of "cultural relativism" and think that it's racist to fight against such practices.

Doobie-Keebler · 7時間前

People in the West have already gotten beyond what people in the developing countries are facing. They've already fought those battles and are now onto what's affecting them here and now.

Don't get annoyed because you're in a different place than they are. Fight your own battles.

snorepheus · 7時間前

*grabs popcorn*

beer_hearts · 8時間前

We have tackled some of the big equality issues that many women around the word unfortunately still face, but inequalities still exist so we must continue to fight the small battles. Now I think the showing off menstrual blood is in poor taste and the free the nipple movement is not for me, but the mansplaining thing is awful. I once had an SO (who wasn't very intelligent anyway) try to explain banking to me, when I was ten years a banker. Annoying. Do not treat me as intellectually inferior - especially when I am intellectually superior to you (I was.)

Anyway - it does show privilege, but it certainly does not mean that Western women are indifferent to your plight. Keep on keeping on sister. Keep on fighting.

Avant_guardian1 · 6時間前

It is just extremely difficult to comprehend how these issues are considered revolutionary when there are much more deeply rooted problems, particularly economic and political, that should be at the forefront

Because the plutocrats know that as long as people are passionately fighting over manspreading they are not passionately fighting for the single mothers struggling at thier jobs at Walmart. This is intentional.

FUCKBITCHPISSSHITASS · 8時間前

Our shit isn't as big as your shit, but that doesn't mean we don't get to complain or try to fix it.

bizmarc85 · 8時間前

I think it's very much a case of our tube has these problems and your tribe has your own problems. Besides anytime the west tries to 'fix' things in the middle east we just make things worse.

I_Do_Not_Exist · 6時間前

First of all, thank you for bringing this question to the table. It's one that many Western women have as well, even living in this country.

I'll address each of your questions/comments in order, so as to give you a well rounded explanation for a variety of the things you're seeing, as they shouldn't all be lumped into one broad stroke of "Western feminism".

Freeing the Nipple - This movement can be understood using the scope of social liberty and the drive to de-mystify and de-stigmatize women's bodies. In America and many other more progressive countries, this IS our equivalent of "let us show our faces". We've just come a lot farther, a lot faster, which is something we were only able to do with a government that doesn't legislate the free use of our bodies as much as government does in the middle east. Furthermore, the cause of "freeing the nipple" can be better understood when it is taking into account the very real stigma of a normal biological process like, most commonly, breast feeding. BECAUSE women's bodies are often subject to such scrutiny ("put it away unless it's sexually gratifying!"), freeing of the nipple in the context of breast feeding is a push back against that, to say, "Well, we AREN'T just here for your enjoyment. We are human beings. And this is stupid."
Showing Off Menstrual Blood- Weird, in my opinion. This is more a sort of edgy "modern art" type thing. Like knitting from your vagina or making yogurt out of your yeast infections or whatever. Honestly, I'm not trying to bash anyone who does this, but it is NOT a common, normal, or wide spread thing and I am sure most people would agree that this isn't considered appropriate human social behaviour. No one wants or needs to see someone's vaginal blood. But the point is probably also just to destigmatize it.
ManSpreading/ManSplaining - Terms used by RadFems (Radical Feminists, new age feminists). Personally, I find both of these terms divisive and lacking of a general understanding of male biology. Man NEED to spread their legs. They have testicles there. And a man explaining his position shouldn't be assigned a sexist term to discredit him just for being a man. But these are terms used by women who are (understandably) very frustrated by a society in which men are given the OK to critique feminism and criticize females for anything they want without context, so I do see the motive even if I don't agree with the execution.

2&3 - Both FRINGE examples of radical feminism or modern feminism focusing on shifting social norms. Neither are good examples of American or 3rd world feminism in its most practiced used. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if people outside of Reddit hadn't ever heard of these things. I know I wouldn't if it weren't for the internet. You can't let the internew skew your ideas of what feminism is like over here that much BECAUSE

We DO see your struggle. We DO think it's worse. We RECOGNIZE that you need help, and we are DESPERATE to know what we can do to offer it to you. But our voices don't reach that far. And our government has no interest in liberating you, the women of oppressed countries. They'd rather bomb the shit out of an entire country just to hit its extremists.

And we, too, are sorry for that. These are not decisions we make. They are not decisions we like. They are not decisions we dismiss easily. We, too, are angry for you. We feel and hurt and ache for you. We WANT TO HELP YOU. We just can't. Or don't know how.

More relevant modern 3rd world feminist issues are:

Access to birth control and other forms of contraception.
Reasonable access to women's health care.
Access to abortions.
Equality in the work place, including equal pay.
The reform of a judicial system that backs what is commonly referred to as "rape culture" (though a controversial term in and of itself) by pushing for harsher sentences for rapists and child molesters.
The shifting of a social attitude that deems women "nurturers" and "feelers" rather than having legitimate skill sets and brains.

TL;DR: Your perception of western feminism is being warped by the internet. Your examples are fringe, but do paint the outer edges of a bigger picture, which is the same big picture you yourself are included in. We are with you. We stand with you. Even though we are apart.

FogCityCandleCo · 7時間前

I agree with you and I'm not too sure I know ANY women who are into showing off their blood or "free the nipple." I think it's made into a much bigger thing by the media than it actually is.

periander · 6時間前

So when did "The Global South" become a thing for developing countries?

Australia/NZ are among the highest developed nations on the planet and last I checked they were kinda south. However nearly all of SE Asia is north.

Just seems like a poor way to describe these countries.

kittycat0195 · 7時間前

I'm going to start off with a story about myself. A year ago, I came to my mom saying "I want to see a therapist; I think I have depression." My mother's response was "what do you have to be depressed about? You have been given everything you could possibly want." And she was right in a way, I am a white upper-class girl in America so I am definitely better off than the vast majority of people in the world. However, the argument that some people have it worse is bad because it minimizes the fact that people, no matter where they come from, have difficulties. Similarly, even though western women don't face abhorrent things like getting acid splashed in their faces, we still face difficulties every day - for example, if we go to the doctors complaining about abdominal pain, it's almost always immediately dismissed as period cramps. If we say "Well, at least we don't have the troubles of Middle Eastern women," then we will never acknowledge that we DO face our own problems. I won't deny that the causes you listed are definitely some of the more minor feminist movements, but they are just a few of the issues that Western feminists tackle. Since you asked, I'm going to explain (to the best of my ability) the mindset behind those three particular movements:

free the nipple: This movement deals with the oversexualization of female breasts. Women are harassed for breastfeeding their babies because breasts are viewed as inherently sexual. Western feminists are trying to overthrow that stigma.
menstruation: This is an attempt to force people to realize that menstruation is natural and not something to be completely disgusted about. I personally am not a "free-bleeder," but I agree that there's something wrong in society if men feel completely mortified picking up a box of tampons because they're "icky."
Manspreading/mansplaining: I'm gonna get a lot of hate for this, but manspreading isn't an issue. Mansplaining, however, is. I prefer to call it "condescension." It deals with the fact that men often feel the need to talk down to women because obviously women don't understand anything. It's a symptom of the underlying problem that women are viewed as children, don't understand anything, and need the help/guidance of a man who knows what he's doing.

Like I said before, you definitely picked some of the pettier issues to deal with, and I completely understand your problems with them. But it's problematic to say "well, someone has it worse, so I have no right to complain" because somebody ALWAYS has it worse than you do.

bonafidegiggles · 6時間前

Also, just remember that you are on the internet. Not everything published or talked about on the internet truly reflects most people's everyday lives.

However, it's more about point of reference. Thank you for your post. Sharing your stories, funny or sad, will help people keep their own lives in perspective.

zambixi · 7時間前

The people who vehemently take up the causes you mention are sort of on the fringe. Most women I know are more concerned about things like equal pay, maternity leave (in the US), gender-based violence, and other more "serious" forms of discrimination. When I bring up something like "free the nipple" (which happens pretty rarely), it's part of a larger point about the way we view women's bodies; being able to walk around shirtless isn't really a pressing issue, but the fact that we cannot shows inequality between the perception and treatment of male and female bodies. While I can't say that showing off menstrual blood is constructive, normalizing menstruation is important even in areas of the Global South.

There's a lot of other stuff at play, too. Fringe issues will get a lot of attention because they're outlandish and people like to talk about them. It's easier for a layperson to understand a shallow issue that affects their everyday life - like "mansplaining" - than it is for them to learn about a complex foreign challenge. Sometimes something "trivial" is really important to an individual or small group and they take initiative to raise awareness, even if it's not something the larger group would agree is the most important issue.

I don't know what your threshold for what is "trivial" or not. In the US, we don't really have women being imprisoned because they want to study (at least not on any large scale -- maybe within families or cults). I'd recommend looking into the work being performed by any of the many political and politically-minded groups to see what issues are actually being addressed in our judiciary and legislature.

Maxwyfe · 9時間前

These issues, freeing the nipple and "mansplaining" are only important to a tiny, self-absorbed portion of our population.

Real women, real western feminists have an entirely different set of priorities and are annoyed by the nipple fighters.

I won't say "equally annoyed" because what ME women endure is not even comparable. I feel like your anger is entirely justified. These little morons running around with their tops off over something that is a non-issue is insulting when there are women in your country, that you know, being beaten for showing their face, or driving a car. It really is ridiculous in that context.

KingKippah · 7時間前

It's all about perspective, I guess.

The 'causes' you mentioned are given far too much attention, which legitimizes them in the eyes of the public.

It's hard to see things for how trivial they really are when they're the only things you can see.

konaya · 7時間前

Empowerment is not a finite resource like food or gold. A ”Western woman” fighting for the rights of her local sisters (and brothers, for that matter) doesn't mean she's undermining your chances to receive the rights she already has.

Albdruck · 6時間前

Sites that are western dominated (like reddit) will automatically focus more on problems that relate to their own cultural circle. If we talk about changing things and dealing with problems women face, it's most of the time limited to our own narrow world view- because it's easier to relate, as well as easier to influence.

Obviously there's also a lot of western feminist movements that take this to the extreme and try to find even the most trivial things. While there's a lot of exaggeration going on, these issues are also often rooted in problems that actually exist- they're just not worth all the drama.

Of course someone from a culture where women get treated much more harshly is going to perceive these problems as trivial and ridiculous if compared to the lack of rights in their own culture.

Chiepmate · 6時間前

Not a female but trying to answer anyway. Could it be that the issues you experience already are 'dealt with' earlier in history in the western world. ( Not assuming we have a 'better' culture ) . So things like FTN are the thing here now and maybe they become an issue when you over there have covered the more fundamental things. I know for a fact that my grandmother has a huge problem with free the nipple till example.

killianfaust · 6時間前

You had me until you used the term "privileged"...the United States and most Christian nations decided long ago to evolve from their savage Middle Ages ways, its time for a certain other religion to do it too...and sorry but that fight is yours alone. You want to show your face in public, you have to evolve your religion, evolve your culture...and that requires YOU and people like you to stand up and fight against it. We're not privileged, nothing was given to us, we've just grown over the centuries to where 'freeing the nipple" is a cause worth trumpeting about, and that freedom came via blood and sacrifice over the course of decades/centuries.

To put in bluntly, its your culture and your religion, and it is up to you to change it. And to be 100% clear, its not economics. Some of the wealthiest nations on the planet have the worst treatment of women.

neverforpoints · 7時間前

My girlfriend calls it "tumblr" feminism and I find it heartbreaking. I actually knew someone who went to a 'feminist' meeting at my university earlier last year with a similar tone. During the meeting they talked for about an hour and a half on the topic of skinny shaming. How it's offensive and belittling for any person to comment on your body type no matter what it is and that it needs to end now. It's something I've noticed mainly affect white females who don't have or don't see the real problems of inequality against women around the world today. I'm sure they will say 'well feminism is feminism' but they are wrong, such extravagant displays of protest I believe only polarize people's beliefs. It's sad and it won't stop until we all realize the damage it does.

Nechama · 8時間前

They're not mutually exclusive. You can support feminist causes in the west and feminist causes in second/third world countries. It's not either/or.

As for how they are connected, you could see it as what the women in your country will be fighting for 50 years later. Then you can point to the west as an example of what society looks like after these issues are tackled. Hopefully by then, acid attacks will be rare incidents and will be heavily punished.

amaenamonesia · 7時間前

With all due respect, I really dislike arguments like these. There's no reason we can't advocate for both.

If you're just asking for more awareness/advocates for these issues, then sure, I agree with you. But the idea that we shouldn't advocate for FTN, etc., because there are worse things going on, just seems like a fallacy to me.

arianalouwe · 8時間前

Wow, this is a really big topic and I feel like I could say a lot, but I'll try and be brief.

A lack of intersectionality is itself a big issue and I think it is a much bigger problem for Western feminism than the rest of the trivial "mansplaining" types of problems you mentioned here. The way that a lack of intersectionality causes the most problems, in my view, is that people equate privileged white woman problem as "the female experience". Many white women have no idea what the true issues are for women in other parts of the world, or in their own country but with different sexual/ethnic/abled/socioeconomic backgrounds. Trust that the indigenous woman in your gender studies class does not identify with feminism the same way that someone of middle class white background does. So that's it's own problem, and I think the most important point of discussion in modern feminism.

As for things like "free the nipple", I really don't think it's about nipples. To me, the underlying issue to these things is that in my country, Canada, and I'm sure in other places, there are a lot of men and women who think that feminism is no longer necessary. they say that women and men are equal in our societies. Anyone who has studied or seriously considered these statements would know that is not true. However, what do you do when people simply don't believe you when you say things like, my professors do not respect me as much as my male peers? Or, I fear for my personal safety in ways that most men never do. So when people ignore these experiences it's because they don't believe that the woman making those claims knows what she's talking about (ironic that they don't see that as demonstrative of gender inequality).

So, some parts of the feminist movement in north america focus on remaining legal areas of inequality, such as how women are still not allowed to be topless, just because they're women. There's no reason for such a restriction to exist, it does no good, so some people choose to highlight that issue in order to try and expose some of these underlying biases and prejudices that we still have again women in our "equal" society.

imaginarystudy · 7時間前

I think most feminists and activists would agree that women all over the world face very different problems. I certainly agree that issues like education, family planning, providing sanitary products, and child marriages are probably more important than the tampon tax and free the nipple. I think most people would agree. But that doesn't mean that these other issues don't affect women's lives and rights. They're all related to the global and historical oppression of women and villification of all things feminine. Combatting these issues on a worldwide scale is impossible. Many women are aware of these global issues and do all they can through donating money and voicing their concerns. But there's not much we can do for women in the Middle East. We can't petition your lawmakers like we can petition our own. I think our hope is that fighting these local battles will eventually have an impact on the globalized interconnected web of gender discrimination.

Take me personally. I regularly donate to charities supporting girls' and women's education in the developing world. I attend forums and protests for gender equality both domestic and global. Does that negate my protests of the tampon tax and mansplaining, which I deal with on a daily basis and hit much closer to home for me? No. Both are important to me and I try my best to help both causes.

The other problem with this argument is that it's essentially a straw man used to discourage all kinds of activism. "Why are you complaining when there are women who are forced into arranged marriages and can't drive?". These people (usually men) don't really care about women in the global south. They just want to negate any kind of activism. You, and women like you, become a rhetorical stance that can be manipulated to stop discussions of important issues like women's healthcare. We should be thankful we have doctors at all, when there are people in Africa who have to walk for three days to reach a doctor. It would be the same as someone telling you that you shouldn't complain because at least you aren't a Syrian woman trying to find sanitary products and feed her family in a war zone. It doesn't actually invalidate your experiences, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't speak up.

JadeTree67 · 7時間前

Basically? We are fighting our fight. Not yours. In fact, we are told that we are not allowed to fight your fight--by Western Muslim women. "they Hijab is a choice" etc, etc. Who you need to be angry at is Muslim women around the world who won't let us fight your fight with you.

Just Google "muslim women choice" and read the articles and opeds. Or cartoons like this

If we try to fight against the oppression you face we are called Islamophobes. Our hands are tied.

Why should we stop fighting for more of our freedoms just because you don't have as many as us? That's like a person who lives without food asking us why we bother to pay extra to eat organic.

gur_bah · 6時間前

I feel that women doubting the substance of other women who are fighting for rights is part of the problem. If we all just stopped questioning each other and "who's cause is more noble or needed" I bet we'd be running the show by now. If we all just decided to keep the same pace as the less liberated groups we wouldn't have gotten as far as we have. It's hard to help a group over seas... as many of you have pointed out... but we can lead by example and show what we want as an end goal for all women, not just western women. Not that all women need to free the nip but it would be great to be able to do so without being ogled or arrested. We have issues with breastfeeding in the USA because our female nipples are triggers for perverts and rapists. We want to be respected as human beings and not icons for sex. Freeing the nipple is deeper than an exhibition. It's a statement that says "hey, my body isn't on display for your entertainment so get used to the nipple so we can all get over this." The taboo will disappear once it's commonplace to see women's breasts in an honest way. And I don't mean cleavage on a billboard, which is what you'll see a lot of in America.

We want this for all women, again, and we hope that we can see some changes. Our religious constructs are different and we believe different things across the globe... but I believe women can have the right to be strong confident women in all places and in all belief systems some day.

mixiemay · 7時間前

I am a woman living in New York and honestly, I couldn't agree with you more. The three causes you gave as examples are so completely a non-issue, they make whomever gets involved in the "cause" look utterly dense and uninformed.

-purple-is-a-fruit- · 8時間前

I always interpreted stuff like free the nipple as being sort of cheeky. I'm sure there are women that feel deadly serious about it, but I imagine it as lady trolling. I could be wrong. I don't get the menstrual blood thing. Probably just women thinking they are edgy. Mansplaining is maybe not the most serious issue, but it is a thing and it's something most women experience. I don't see anything wrong with pointing it out. Not in a "OMG I'm going to change the world " way, but in a "ha! Do you believe this asshole? Let's commiserate." kind of way. We are a lot more privileged in the west, I get that. We still have important battles to fight of our own, like reproductive rights. That's the kind of thing we should be focusing our attention on, but women aren't all on the same page with this one.

Obviously, your battles are more important and serious, and generally speaking, I think we are sympathetic to that. But realistically, someone like me isn't going to effect change in the middle east. I don't know. We also have a lot of dumb people with access to social media, so there's that too.

csbysam · 7時間前

Also in NYC it's completely legal for women to go topless.

companionk · 7時間前

I think its important to remember that Western women have fought good fights and we are just continuing the work. Its probably very frustrating (as it is for us as well) that more progress hasnt been made for women in your parts of the world. I assure you many women here still fight for women like you while also working on progress here. One day maybe women in your country will have gained enough rights to fight for the not so paramount issues in womens rights. Its all a process :) keep fighting

cocogelato · 7時間前

Just to reiterate because this keeps coming up:

When I said outsider influence, I meant government intervention, led by men, that often has ulterior geopolitical motives.
Our causes/struggles are not your responsibility or your burden, they are ours, that is why I support change from within. No blaming or guilting here.
The original post did not mean to say these are THE only causes of Western women. I gave them as examples because I keep seeing them all over my social media and MSM, and I wanted to understand why and how did they come to be, in light of all the other causes Western women still have.

cynoclast · 7時間前

[removed]

Svataben · 7時間前

I find it so strange with questions like these.

Are you only able to care about one thing at a time? Is there only one intensity that you can care with?

Me, I live in a world where I can think FGM is horrible, and man spreading annoying. I can care about both things, and assign them different values.

Poka-chu · 8時間前

The fact that there exists a bigger injustice somewhere else does not mean that small injustices should be just tolerated.

that_snarky_one · 8時間前

I absolutely agree with you. Privileged people just like to complain. It's embarrassing, and harmful to women who are actually oppressed.

Reallyreallyquick · 6時間前

How the hell is Twox an automatically subscribed subreddit? This place is beyond delusional.

therealbigbudz · 8時間前

The truth is western feminism is completely lost. I am an american man and agree with everything you have said. Modern third wave feminism is selfish and foolish. Real feminists are the Peshmerga/YPG fighting against a REAL patriarchy, and women like you who have true oppression to deal with. I hope this helps you understand :)

caitlington · 7時間前

I think of it like this - literally any problem or issue someone takes up could be belittled with a "why are you bothering with this when there is something much more serious going on?". Everyone chooses their battles, and we need people standing up for justice in every arena. It would be a slippery slope to dismiss everything with the notion that there are bigger fish to fry.

EataDickThe_Donald · 6時間前

why are women not allowed to study, forced to wear certain clothing, or be forced to marry someone they do not want?

It comes down to patriarchy and the idea that men are inherently superior and that aspect of women's physiology makes them inferior or unclean. So a woman in the west fighting to normalize nipples on instagram, is just the latest fight against the attempt to force women's choice to express themselves, what they wear, what they show, etc. In the 1900s, women in America would have been arrested for two piece bikinis at public beaches. Your struggles are our struggles. And for most countries, modernization is a code word for westernization. The acceptance of more lax social mores.

Showing menstrual blood and being allowed to post and talk about it, is about women's health as it is about being vulgar. It's normalizing menses, something that happens to 50% of the world population. Something that is naturally occurring, and absolutely important for health and fertility. Targeting women for being unclean, over something that shouldn't be considered so, is what helps cement patriarchial mores and misogyny. Once you understand that menses is just a disintegrating egg, along the linings of the uterine wall, there is no mystical aspect behind it. There's no bad vapors, that can affect you. There's no demon or spirit, leaving the woman. It's just a process of self-cleaning. Being able to openly talk about it, helps understand the experience of 50% of the human population. And allows for improvements on health services for women. This man created sanitary pads in India and was shunned despite providing an improvement to women's health in his own country.

I don't think you'd find a lot of women that would say "free the nips" and not support education for women in her own country and in others. However, for the media's sake, freeing the nipple is a saucier, naughty, eye grabbing subject than "health and education for more women".

I could have posted this on my normal account but the mods got ban happy when twoxchromosomes became a default. So oh well.

clayleviathan · 6時間前

I read an article once by a woman who I think we from India or Pakistan. She had moved to the US and was finding it difficult to reconcile the struggles of Western women, which seemed kind of petty to her, and those of Eastern women. IIRC, she used Maslow's hierarchy as a way to explain the how and why these struggles are different. It's been a while since I read the piece, and haven't been able to dig it up, but think she was explaining that different levels of consciousness about women's issues is different parts of the world simply makes the particular things they are fighting for different. While we still need to fight for equality in the west, we've also had a lot of big victories. For instance, paternalism in the west had diminished greatly, but in some parts of the world, it's still a big problem. Women in those places still have to fight for things like the right to drive a car, or get a job. Fighting things like mansplaining are also part of that fight against paternalism, but on the surface those fights appear different than fighting for the right to get a job. In the west, a lot of those battles are long over, though. Feminism in the west has just started to move away from more practical issues to larger ideological issues like the way that women are portrayed in the media. Freeing the nipple is a form of protest that means to reshape how we view women's bodies. That's just where the feminist struggle is in the west, but it's still the same struggle.

All I'm saying that that the struggle looks different. I think that a lot of Western women understand this difference, and are at least aware of some of the issues other women around the world are facing. Looking at the big picture, we're still fighting under the same banner.

TheDevilsHorn · 8時間前

I think all three of those causes are really uncommon and silly and don't matter to the majority of people. Just they are a loud minority. And let me just say that when people mention the middle east or Muslims I have mentioned acid attacks before. I can honestly say I've discussed that issue and other issues for women in the middle east. Those things even if they aren't happening here are important to us, I don't think the awareness is high enough, though. Women's issues here that are really important are things like, bodily autonomy and maternity leave. And just discrimination in general. Most women here do not want to walk around topless.

Edit:also maybe you can understand that even though "free the nipple" is supported by a small number of people, if you think about it for a second, you'll see why it is covered heavily by media when protests do happen. It is absolutely not anyone's idea of suffering.

Wess-L · 7時間前

"I feel resentment" why? Because we dont fit your views? Isnt that a horrible thing your doing/saying ? Then you tell us you dont want other countries to influence yours and that the change should happen internally. Are you kidding me? It has been thousands of years and still there is no change in some countries. If women cant influence anything how do you think you will get equal rights? Just by waiting for another thousand years? Imo horrible arguments you bring up. The same goes to your "why are you not doing something more important" Why do you think these women are not involved in other stuff? Just because they use the media by shocking people like you? It seems to work doesnt it. If even you have heard of it. So it does its purpose. I dont think women want to do that and get naked in the cold but this is a way to catch attention for something they want. We should listen. We dont have to agree or feel resentment. We should respect it. Even if we dont always agree with it.

Theige · 6時間前

Women are allowed to show their nipples in New York.

The law was changed decades ago to allow this

lalafriday · 9時間前

I'm from the U.S and I agree with you completely. It often feels like people complain just to complain. If their lives aren't perfect they need to find something to cry about. On the other hand things will always be worse somewhere else. Just because someone has it worse some place else doesn't mean it can't be better here. But again, I agree with you entirely. I'm from a state that is very "liberal" and I like to think of myself as liberal too (only different). The thing that always infuriates me about these liberals is that they tend to overlook the atrocities that women in the Muslim world have to go through. It's very weird. I wish you the best and am very sorry you have to listen to us over here bitch about these silly things.

Nova_Day · 7時間前

American feminism (if you even want to call it that) is cancer.

lileaux · 7時間前

British woman here, I find all three causes listed laughable and completely agree with what you said. It is embarrassing to think that other women are claiming inequality over air conditioning and nipples, but I can't really do anything about them.

Throwaway241116 · 7時間前

Even as a western woman I have to deal with sexism on a daily basis. Not a day goes by where a man doesn't "mansplain" something to me even though I'm a professionally qualified person. There is always someone belittling me or making a sexist or perverse comment to me and my female coworkers and it's things they would never say to my male coworkers.

Everyone's fighting their own battles. What may seem insignificant to you may be a repeating and pervasive event that is destroying a woman's will.

There are still parts of the west where women are killed or denied rights on the singular basis that they are female. (Not to mention if they are LGBT, a woman of colour, a single mum or anything else that people may also use as a basis of discrimination).

I think women everywhere need to fight against whatever affects them and no one can have the privilege of saying "I'm not a feminist" when others around the world have less rights than we do and where we're still fighting for equal recognition compared to men.

That can be anything from bodily rights to working rights and anything else.

I've donated to fgm and child marriage charities etc and can only hope it helps.

If there's something you feel strongly about in your own country, and you believe it's not getting the recognition it deserves then work with charities or groups that work on issues that concern you.

There's no one way to be a woman or a feminist so you do you but no one can help you gift your own battles. You have to pick them for yourself. We can support one another from near or far but only if you choose.

Five_inches_of_taint · 6時間前

The answer you seek you likely won't find here, but that's the fact that the third wave feminism that grabs headlines really isn't about equality and is increasingly a "first world," white, college-educated, secular feminism.

UnityHiveMind28 · 8時間前

I understand what you're saying here, absolutely. What we experience here seems trivial in comparison to what other women in other countries are subjected to.

However, because their pain and suffering is is technically "worse" than "privileged" men and women here in the states it most certainly does not negate what their pain or what they go through.

Picture this: your brother who is engaged to a woman he loves, is drugged by another woman, she takes his pants down proceeds to rape him while a friend records them "hooking up" and he can't do a thing about it because it's believed men can't be raped. He distances himself from his fiancée because he doesn't know how to tell her, so they split up. He becomes more depressed because he doesn't know how to cope and starts to believe he really did ask for it to happen things spiral loses his job, his friends, his family. Are you saying that because what he went through isn't as bad as what others went through, he should be grateful and feel guilty for going through pain and suffering? How would you feel as his sister if another woman were to say that to him?

Some people here do just take things too far. I personally, will never tell a victim that they shouldn't feel bad because others have it worse. Oh yes mother, I know they're starving children that have no food but that doesn't give you the right to hold my nose and force feed me undercooked fish and tell be happy I'm so lucky send me to bed after I vomit it all back up.

Edit: TL;DR I think we as people should be empathetic and stop comparing "how good" someone seems to have it.

hackingyourightnow · 7時間前

These are the causes that affect us personally in the western world, so we fight for them.

breakfastbaby · 8時間前

As a Western woman I also am very offended that there are other women in my country who are so myopic and entitled that they turn these non issues into phantom sources of oppression. It feels like such egomaniacal behavior, and a huge waste of energy. When put into a perspective where there are countries where women actually face true and life threatening oppression it becomes even more infuriating. I have no respect for women like these, and it seems like a really pathetic misuse of thought and frivolous anger. It reminds me of petchulant children having a tantrum and does not make me think of a strong or powerful woman. I don't understand it in any capacity, and I've always been a very liberal thinker. I am a woman who has faced many tragedies and abuses at the hands of men, things that a lot of these "feminists" couldn't even conceive of, perhaps that's why I think the behavior is so contemptible and lame. Sorry for sounding so negative, but the whole thing is so mind boggling and frustrating to me.


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