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bitcoin scaled as a coffee money doesn't solve any useful problems (self.Bitcoin)

pokertravis が 投稿

trying to scale bitcoin simply for cheap transactions and to grow the user base doesn't solve a problem that is meaningful. Ver brigade doesn't understand the problem that money is trying to address.

Bitcoin CAN'T be Ideal Money, but bitcoin CAN be gold like, for the reason we traditionally valued gold.

A perpetual debate destroys this property-and this is all Ver and his brigade has to offer.

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[–]Rassah [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Your coffee money is a day's income in countries where grey markets are the main economy, and bitcoin is actually REALLY needed.

[–]the_bob [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How will people use Bitcoin if they can't run it on their computers due to bigger blocks?

[–]ganesha1024 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (24子コメント)

trying to scale bitcoin simply for cheap transactions and to grow the user base doesn't solve a problem

I think the Indians who can't use their cash anymore would beg to differ. The more users a currency has, the greater utility it has, and having an option other than fiat currency is a tremendous utility when the fiat printers are trying to strangle you. Have you read about Metcalfe's Law? What about the demise of the Weimar republic?

doesn't understand the problem that money is trying to address

What problem is that?

for the reason we traditionally valued gold

Do we value gold because it is hard to move around?

A perpetual debate destroys this property

Which property?

[–]alexgorale 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just for kicks.

I think gold's difficulty to transport becomes more valuable as you own more gold. There are different use cases and it depends on the user. Ultimately, I tend to side with the most options. But there are no absolutes. If I had a large amount of gold I would want only a few options for it's transportation and want to control all of them.

E.g. it is built into a gold fountain or some elaborate mantel in my elaborate mansion (I own lots of gold, right?)

But if I own a small amount of gold I kind of want the opposite. I want to be able to take it with me where ever I go.

[–]ganesha1024 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting answer. I think as the amount of gold you own increases, the incentive to steal it grows much more quickly than the difficulty of physically moving it. One kilogram of gold is not much harder to carry than one gram, but it is much more valuable than one gram. So I don't think decreasing the portability of gold increases the security and therefore value by much. It seems like what you really want is the owner should be able to transport it effortlessly and everyone else has a very hard time transporting it. Interesting how you ignored the boundary between owner and non-owner. Are you Autolycus, by any chance?

Edit: sentences

[–]pokertravis[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Do we value gold because it is hard to move around?

Are you trying to suggest that we don't value gold? because its hard to move around? Scaling bitcoin to a coffee money doesn't help the people of india, or venezula, or any such countries. They already have a coffee money and it grows useless for them

Which property?

The property that give gold its value which is not its transactability and low cost of transport.

[–]ganesha1024 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

They already have a coffee money and it grows useless for them

Are you saying that portability and transactability actually hurt a currency's value?

[–]pokertravis[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Messing with the fundamentals hurt its value. Nonethless I am saying there is no argument to scale bitcoin to a coffee money because it doesn't solve a useful problem. There is no value in such a solution.

[–]ganesha1024 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the fundamentals

How is low portability a fundamental of money or bitcoin?

[–]ganesha1024 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (16子コメント)

The property that give gold its value which is not its transactability and low cost of transport.

The transactability and transportability definitely factor into the value of gold, since they are non-zero. Suppose you could have gold but it was impossible to move or transfer ownership of it. Then what would the price of gold be? Zero, since nobody can receive it, nobody will pay anything for it.

[–]pokertravis[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (15子コメント)

That speaks nothing to the reasons stated for hard-forking to have big blocks that support bitcoin as a coffee money.

[–]ganesha1024 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Yes it does. The point is that usability is an important factor in the value of gold and of other currencies/commodities, including bitcoin.

[–]pokertravis[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (13子コメント)

That bitcoin's value is perfectly tied to it "usability" is foolish. Bitcoin is already far more useable than gold and gold is far less useable than many of the depreciating currencies around the world. Scaling bitcoin to a coffee money is a useless endeavor that serves no useful purpose. Its a silly pipe dream that is born from a complete lack of understanding of the problem money is meant to solve.

[–]ganesha1024 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

bitcoin's value is perfectly tied to it "usability"

Straw man, I said usability was a factor in it's value.

foolish...silly pipe dream

Name calling

gold is far less useable than many of the depreciating currencies around the world

I disagree. If you compare small gold coins with fiat coins of equal value, then gold has slightly superior portability due to it's smaller size and there is still enough for everyone in the world to be using it.

Scaling bitcoin to a coffee money is a useless endeavor that serves no useful purpose.

Then how many transactions should we be able to make with bitcoin? How do you decide that?

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Then how many transactions should we be able to make with bitcoin? How do you decide that?

Exactly. And I don't think you or any big blocker has a right to determine that, nor a scientific basis for it.

[–]ganesha1024 [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

nor a scientific basis for it

And what scientific basis is there for 1MB blocks?

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

You don't even understand the words you are using. the blockchain and bitcoin's price is the empirical evidence for 1mb.

[–]handsomechandler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In the long run bitcoin is not only competing with fiat and gold, but with other cryptocurrencies. I'm not necessarily saying bitcoin has to scale for coffee money but it does have to remain competitive in terms of what is technically possible for cryptocurrency.

[–]Ant-n [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The property that give gold its value which is not its transactability and low cost of transport.

Wich one they are?

[–]cdn_int_citizen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The amount to buy a coffee to people in the 3rd world is food for weeks. Bitcoin is the only viable way to connect them to the global markets.

[–]escapevelo [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

You are missing the big picture. It's all about the potential ease of use cases that make programmable money a game changer.

Imagine this scenario that is likely to occur in the near future. You walk into a retail store, scan a product and pay for it using a cryptocurrency. It may seem like a normal purchase but many things can occur instantly without the user even having to interact. Things like:

  • Ownership is transferred to you on a blockchain. When the ownership feature in enabled on this widget you are the only one to turn it on.
  • You get an instant rebate from the manufacturer of the product for releasing the sales information (price, data, geographical location, etc). You are also automatically registered for a warranty. This will make supply chains more efficient as real time data comes in.
  • You keep a digital receipt that be looked up searching your wallet or by even scanning the product. How many times have you had the product but not the receipt?

This plus thousands of other ease of use cases could be developed for purchases. Bitcoin is not just ideal money, it's the most innovative programmable money ever created. All these ease of use cases will make users want to pay in cryptocurrency as it will make everything easier. To say paying with cryptocurrency doesn't solve anything is missing the whole concept of programmable money.

[–]thisusernamelovesyou [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Exactly. It will also rule out social engineering fraud such as warranty exploitation.

[–]BTC_Foreverredditor for 3 months [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Very well explained! Thanks.

[–]Ilogy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

These are excellent points. Especially when you consider that the blockchain is global and recognizes no borders. Can you imagine how elegant it all would become?

Things like you mention will continue to give Bitcoin what I call emergent intrinsic value. The idea being that because the blockchain allows for so much more than just simple bitcoin transactions, bitcoin will possess value beyond its use as money alone, to whatever extent the blockchain is used in these other capacities. The concept of "intrinsic value," when speaking about money, is the idea that a particular commodity being used as money still possesses value even if it should cease to be used as money. The money thereby becomes "backed" by its intrinsic value. For Bitcoin, this becomes the case overtime, depending on the extent to which the blockchain is used for things beyond simple monetary transactions. It's intrinsic value emerges.

The idea of bitcoin as "digital gold" is really the idea that bitcoin possesses intrinsic value. The concept is meant to separate those who see bitcoin this way from those who view it more as a new kind of fiat money (i.e., money that lacks intrinsic value), where its value comes solely from the network effect. It's also meant to draw attention to the intrinsic utility of the blockchain, and make people aware that bitcoins are not simply arbitrary digital tokens like World of Warcraft gold -- a view that leads many to declare it to be a Ponzi.

But even if you accept that there is more to Bitcoin's value than simply the network effect, that Bitcoin is more than just money, you still must recognize that the blockchain's value is emergent dependent on utility and use. If one day society depends upon it so thoroughly that it becomes hard to imagine how we got by before it -- if one day the blockchain becomes as fundamental as the internet itself -- then it will become just intuitively self-evident that bitcoins possess intrinsic value. But we won't get there without the network effect inspiring the use of the blockchain.

You can't really be a "digital gold" guy and not believe in the importance of on-chain transactions, not really. (The irony is that, on the other hand, you probably can discount the importance of on-chain transactions if your main concern is with creating a super efficient payment network.)

[–]nattarbox [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Ignorant as fuck.

It creates an open internet of money, with no geographic or political regulation and no corporate gatekeepers. It will usher in a wave of fintech innovation we can't even comprehend. Try getting your startup on MasterCard's network and then write this post.

[–]DakotaChiliBeans [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How about mcdonald's combo meal money then. Is that still to low value to deem worthy of a bitcoin transaction. How about a 20.00 pizza, is that to cheap to deem worthy of a bitcoin transaction. How about 150.00 grocery shopping bill, or electricity bill?

Really when you say coffee money, you mean everything outside of large transfers between wealthy parties is not welcome.

[–]glockbtc [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

Coffee in many countries is a month's wage

[–]djangocoin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What's to stop me going there and living like a king?

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

That's why we need to stabilize our money systems. Ver money doesn't do that.

[–]glockbtc [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Ok I thought you were against lightening

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

nope and im especially pro ideal money

[–]Shibinator [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

You want "ideal money", but think it's better if a form of money CAN'T be used to buy a coffee?

Here's an idea, any form of money that can't be used to pay for coffee is more ideal (facilitates more transactions) if it were improved so it can be used to buy a coffee.

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

No that is not true, and it doesn't serve as a useful solution to anything. We have plenty of coffee money.

[–]Shibinator [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

What's not useful about something that can buy coffee?

Bitcoin doesn't have to be ONLY unique uses to be useful. A car doesn't have to only be able to travel on roads that no other cars can to be useful. It's the opposite, a car is most useful if it can do everything other cars can plus some that it can't. Bitcoin is like that, ideally it can do every transaction that gold or fiat can, plus some that it can't, making it very useful.

You seem to think Bitcoin is only good if it gets held by large nation states and used to settle national debts in a couple of hundred transactions each year. That's the exact opposite to the reason Bitcoin was invented, which was to allow everyone to transact freely from the nation state and lower economic barriers to everyone globally.

I'm assuming what you think because you haven't explained what you consider a "useful solution". Apparently it's not something something "useful", aka "that anyone can use".

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Bitcoin is only good if it gets held by large nation states and used to settle national debts in a couple of hundred transactions each year.

^ This would be very good!

to allow everyone to transact freely from the nation state and lower economic barriers to everyone globally.

^ This is a useless goal

the reason Bitcoin was invented

You don't understand what bitcoin was invented and you made up your own story without reading any of the associated literature.

[–]Shibinator [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You think everyone transacting without state interference is "useless" and think large nation states need something to settle national debts.

This discussion is pointless. I don't know why you like Bitcoin, gold already exists and apparently it is exactly what you want - go support that instead.

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes a free money system for the world is useless. Gold is good, bitcoin is better.

[–]glockbtc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I hope ver is sent to prison for life

[–]SoCo_cpp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"My views are right and everyone who disagrees are evil brigades of fictitious people."

[–]sha256md5 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Sure it does. It becomes a "universal" currency that can be used all around the world.

[–]pokertravis[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This isn't how money or economics works-thats VER economics. And we already have world money systems.

[–]db100p 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

100% agree.

The only option for bitcoin to be usefull for coffee money is Lightning network!

The purchase of a coffee doesn't need to be recorded by thousands of computers forever. It's a waste of resources.

[–]yogibreakdance [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Doesn't matter how large blocksize is while N transactions is still N. We won't land on Moon , Mars , Pluto until the Lightning runs in full steam. Why is it so hard to put it into Vers and big blockers thick skulls ?

[–]db100p [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It isn't about recording all coffee transactions on the blockchain, that's simply impossible like you say.

The BU folks seem to want bitcoin centralized and control it.