全 180 件のコメント

[–]kimchi_station 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Try jumping into their discord. The moment I got in a mod messaged me and said "you have 30 seconds to tell me why I shouldn't ban you". Thing is you can't post in the rooms till your account is verified or whatever... Also I've seen someone (mods i'm assuming) give users they disagree with flair that says 'national socialist'.

[–]Windows_Update 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They're moderators of an internet board and that power went right to their heads. Imagine if these people were placed in charge of a state, it'd be a fucking disaster.

This little shit is why I'm an anarchist. You give people even a small amount of power and it goes straight to their heads.

[–]shynehova 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Too true. Power seems to always corrupt unfortunately.

[–]yourmatchmyfire 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (40子コメント)

Yeah, I got banned too. I wasn't even explicitly against the policy, just some of the nuances of it. Not good enough, apparently.

[–]Loves_His_Bong 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (39子コメント)

I posted about how I supported the mods calling attention to ableism (not necessarily censoring it) on the basis that socialism is not an elitist movement with intellectual thresholds of ability. Someone responded saying we seek to break down social, cultural, economic and sexual barriers. I made a joke about wanting my girlfriend to put her finger in my butt and got banned. They're a little ban happy. They're turning it into a Leninist sub pretty much.

[–]yourmatchmyfire 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'd go further and say Stalinist.

[–]Loves_His_Bong 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's ok. I'll just bring my quality butt fingering content to /r/anarchism anyway.

[–]MeatNoodleSauceCool Black Hat 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If your girlfriend isn't willing, I'd be down to help you with the butt fingering!

[–]DONTDOPE 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nice, keep up the good work!

Freedom!

[–]bigblindmax/ decentralist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuck those prudes, that's the best content. Keep it comin' comrade.

[–]Skindoggg 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whats the difference?

[–]-AllIsVanity- 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stalinism is literally a branch of Leninism.

[–]malte224 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Please don't make leninism into "ban everything we don't agree with". I know that anarchists have a bad history with leninists, but equating the other side to either fascists (as many anarchists see many marxists) or dreamers (as many marxists see anarchists) will only help the pro-capitalist ideologies, by splitting the left even more, than it already is.

[–]dkswagger 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (18子コメント)

But the hard thing here for some of us is this: at core I'm anti-authoritarian and pro-democracy. I can't understand the concept of authoritarian socialism - it's fairly indistinguishable to me from liberal capitalism in terms of oppressiveness. I wouldn't have been happy to live under the USSR anymore than an imperial capital state. So I'm getting less sure of what this concept of a unified left means, if by that you mean I am supposed to unite with a Stalin apologist.

[–]malte224 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (17子コメント)

at core i'm pretty anti-authoritarian as well, but i just currently don't know how an anarchist society would be possible with such a big part of the world ready to overthrow anything remotely socialist. therefore, i think, the only solution is authotarian socialism for a little while (and i really want to hear the response to this, as it might be the only thing keeping me from being an anarchist). i think a lot of people are like me in this regard, and therefore i feel, that blasting all of leninism might turn people away from anarchism, even if they are pro-anarchism at heart.

[–]remain_calm 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The idea that those with authoritarian power would willing cede it after "a little while" seems extremely naive. What makes you think that would ever happen?

[–]Thhueros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What about Tito. I'll admit I'm new to leftist politics and history in general but if I'm not mistaken didn't the Yugoslavian economy decentralize?

[–]Denzak 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's complicated, the former Yugoslavia is definitely something that's seldom talked about. But if Tito pissed off Stalin, he can't be all bad. Seems like he was a benevolent dictator. He also had defence plans drawn up in case of an invasion from either the USSR or NATO! That's pretty bold.

Here is the introduction to Marxism and Workers' Self-Management: The Essential Tension

The book goes into detail on the Yugoslav economic model.

[–]malte224 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, i don't think anyone should have as much power as we've seen in the USSR. Power definitely corrupts, and therefore we need to quickly get a democracy set up, instead of having one supreme leader, so that the people are in charge and not the leaders.

[–]remain_calm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's ironic to imagine that an authority is necessary to establish a society without authority. It seems better to build strong democratic communities from the start. Then there's no need for a central authority nor is there anything for such an authority to "set up".

[–]kabu 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (8子コメント)

An alternative to an authoritarian socialist revolution is often talked about by Richard Wolff in his podcast called Economic Update. I haven't been following him for long--so I probably shouldn't/can't answer any of your questions--but, more or less, it's building a strong worker-cooperative network within capitalist societies to compete with and eventually displace top-down control over the economy. This would involve using preexisting, powerful democratic institutions to leverage our side's much-weaker positions against that of the capitalists'.

[–]malte224 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Interesting. I might have to check that podcast out. Is there any specific episode that delves into this?

[–]kabu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've only listened to his last several, but I think most of them do, at least a little. I think his 2nd or 3rd-to-last one did quite a bit more than the others, where he mentioned a plan laid out by the UK's Labour party under its new leadership. Maybe it was even his 4th-to-last one! Somewhere after his 2 or 3 Trump-specific ones! Sorry, poor memory!

[–]Str8tTrollN 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a pipe dream. As soon as any opposition to capitalism develops it will be crushed by the state.

[–]Denzak 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So perhaps there must be an assault against the Capitalist mode of production on all fronts? In the markets and in the state?

[–]iPissOnRebelGraves/ Anarcho-Communist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What we'd have to do is spread the message with those who manufacture weapons for the state.

[–]glexarn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dual power is definitely a really cool concept and I'm totally down with it.

[–]iPissOnRebelGraves/ Anarcho-Communist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting, I've always thought of this myself and would love to hear someone who is more wordy explain it.

[–]esse_SA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Totally with you. Wrestling the horns of the economic machine away from the upper class will be necessary eventually, so why not start now.. it will help us win. We can spread radical ideas in the democratic forums and power structures that we will need to organize and wage war in the economic sphere.

[–]OldWoband Green Syndicalist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

therefore, i think, the only solution is authotarian socialism for a little while (and i really want to hear the response to this, as it might be the only thing keeping me from being an anarchist).

Since you asked...

A lot of things have changed since Marx and Bakunin yelled at each other. For example, Bakunin assumed that militias could adequately serve the defense needs of communities. That made sense in a day without tanks, aircraft or missiles. Such a plan might still serve most defense needs, but not all, and anarchism doesn't easily lend itself to every sort of undertaking. State of the art missile defense would be an extremely expensive proposition, and (absent a state) who would fund such a thing?

At the same time, Bakunin's point about power corrupting governments hasn't changed at all. Nothing about governments, whatever their underlying philosophy, has improved, because humans haven't changed.

There is room for compromise. As long as the federation of free people has hostile neighbors, we might need some form of state. It can own some of the means of production, and use that to fill in gaps that may exist in the anarchist society and economy. I don't find this idea repugnant, so long as the state is severely limited in scope, and capable of being brought down at any time by a general strike, or other actions of the populace. Defending yourself from foreign attackers doesn't require a big authoritarian government, only the will and access to the means.

tldr; every commune should own anti-tank guns, but nobody must own tanks, or should own tanks.

[–]malte224 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, this is a great response! I'm really beginning to feel bad about rejecting anarchism from an early point in my days as a leftist. I completely agree with your points.

[–]crossisbending 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd rather stick with a liberal market democracy than accept authoritarian socialism.

We've seen what Lenin's variety of state capitalism looks like, and it's not very appealing.

[–]borgzillo 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why not? This is what happens when democratic centralists larp. It happens with every Leninist group.

[–]malte224 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because a lot of leninists agree with this side of the conflict. I agree that all of the bans are stupid, but the way people write the comments in here, seems to lump me in with all of the elitist ban-happy people, just because i have a similar ideology to them. Being Leninist doesn't mean you have to hate Anarchism or ban everyone who even slightly disagrees with you.

[–]borgzillo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe it's best not to turn your political leanings into an identity.

[–]malte224 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course that's a bad idea. But in a political discussion, people can be quite quick to generalise people of certain ideologies. It just gets really irritating, when you try to debate someone, and they just blame you for things other people, you don't have anything to do with, do and say.

[–]selver- 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Anarchists are generally anti-authoritarians first, and then anti-capitalism is just an extension of that principle. Leninists are anti-capitalism first, and then they'll get to anti-authoritarianism eventually. We have fundamentally different, and opposing, goals and principles. Left unity only makes sense from the viewpoint of those who put socialism first and anti-authoritarianism second.

[–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]selver- 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It's not that it's more important, it's that my being anti-capitalism comes from me being against authority and hierarchy. My problem with capitalism isn't that it's not efficient, or that it's enviormentally unsustainable. It's that it's an authoritarian, hierarchical system where the capitalist class are the rulers. Swapping out the one authoritarian system for another does absolutely nothing for me, I will still be ruled. I don't care if the cops switch to red uniforms, the core problem would still be there, I would not have control over my own life.

    [–]malte224 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I see, and in many ways i agree with you. If i were to start reading anarchist litterature, what books are good places to start?

    [–]selver- 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    For a classic introduction, check out Berkman's ABC of Anarchism. Chapter 9 goes into how anarchists think about revolution.

    Other than that, just check out the list on the sidebar.

    [–]Loves_His_Bong 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The mods are almost exclusively Leninist. I'm not conflating them with anything but their own ideology and the shitty things that they do.

    [–]malte224 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    yeah, leninists do have too many of the modding positions, and are too ban-happy. But i just don't want to be seen as one of them, because i agree with you on this issue, and i'd be surprised if i was the only one thinking that.

    [–]AprilMaria 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Who said fuck chomsky? I don't always agree with the guy but hes genuine and they have him up on the roll of honour thing on the side

    [–]bigblindmax/ decentralist 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It's extremely frustrating. People were talking about making "blind" an ableist slur and I saw something about "vision impaired" too.

    Apparently, honestly discussing my condition is oppressive and insensitive. I find that much more hurtful and "oppressive" than being called blind, to be honest.

    I want to give the mods the benefit of the doubt and say this is a genuine attempt to "help", but it's getting really fucking difficult. People are begging them to use context instead of having a "one size fits all", but the mods don't care. They're convinced they are protecting us poor oppressed folks or some shit.

    I'm probably just going to steer clear for a while, place is gonna give me an ulcer.

    [–]AprilMaria 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Can I honestly ask, because I cant ask them, what are we supposed to call blind people seen as your a blind person?

    [–]bigblindmax/ decentralist 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No problem!

    Usually vision impaired or visually impaired is best, since it's a good general description and a medical term. Low vision works too. I used to use legally blind more, but there's a meme floating around that makes it a bit annoying.

    Blind should usually only be used to describe folks who are well and truly blind in both eyes, unless you and the visually impaired person know each other and they are comfortable talking/joking about the disability. Most visually impaired folks have often been called this a lot and will probably just politely correct you, but it's nice when people use the correct terms. I personally don't mind, though I'm only legally blind.

    [–]mypersonnalreader 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    "Political hegemony is the name of the game. For good or ill, legitimate or not. Socialism is authoritarian and bourgeoisie free speech isn't necessarily compatible with it. And Fuck Chomsky." Please tell me that this sub is different.

    Yeah, as you can guess, we are pretty much anti-authoritarian and don't care for red fascists.

    [–]TheSutphinMakhnovist... I think? 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Yeah, what the fuck?

    Socialism, at it's core, is not authoritarian at all. And it's because of that FACT that I became a socialist in the first god damn place.

    [–]yourmatchmyfire 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I'm thinking that it's time for me to do more anarchist readings because lately I've been seeing the flaws of authoritarianism and the benefits of anarcho-communism. I still consider myself socialist but this whole debacle has left a bad taste in my mouth. When you're acting like the very fascists you claim to fight against, you're doing no good for the cause of revolution.

    [–]TheSutphinMakhnovist... I think? 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Go for it, comrade! I consider myself to be a socialist, an anarchist, and a communist, tbh.

    They, to me, are all extensions of one another. It, at the end of the day, is about the workers, and ending oppression.

    [–]yourmatchmyfire 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Pretty much, yeah. It's funny - I actually started out fairly plainly libertarian (though never quite an-cap, thankfully). I moved left and became liberal and then moved even further to being a socialist, but I guess some of my more independent tendencies have won through.

    Right-wing brains explode when you call yourself a socialist, anarchist, and communist all at once. Like they don't even know how to process that, haha.

    [–]TheSutphinMakhnovist... I think? 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ya should have seen my Right-wing, authoritarian, climate change denying, gay (not in a bad way, just a fact), racist (in a bad way and a fact) Uncle, living in Siberia for work, react to when I told him I was an anarcho-communist at dinner.

    Now THAT was a fun night of drinking.

    [–]MeatNoodleSauceCool Black Hat 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm probably misguided or wrong, but for no good reason I can think of outside of keeping people off my back, I don't call myself a socialist or anarchist. I prefer libertarian leftists, as it leaves me much more free to pick and choose the battles I have with people in public discourse, and when talking to people no matter their political and economic views, it allows me to a bit more nuanced. I don't think there's one type of movement that strikes all of the nails, and I like to draw from almost all of it on one level or another.

    [–]NaturalSelectionDied- Literally Stalin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I also recommend reading about Libertarian Socialism, Democratic Confederalism, and Libertarian municapalism to get some other perspectives and paths. Always interesting to build a wide base of ideas.

    [–]Windows_Update 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (24子コメント)

    I don't care for the whole "free speech" argument or what not, but these rules in /r/soc are only going to drive people away. They serve little purpose in changing the minds of people that use the language. Instead of banning them and removing their comments, perhaps the usage of such slurs should be countered by explaining why they're not acceptable and why one shouldn't use them, as then you can at least have a chance at changing minds. Right now the rules are waaaay too strict, hell you can be banned for the words "blind" because that's a slur apparently.

    If someone shouts "fuck off retard," certainly ban them because there's a rule against incivility. If someone says "that's kind of retarded," and refers to an object or behavior, explain why they shouldn't use that word, don't ban them on sight.

    That sub has been detrimental to the left on Reddit for a while because of the power tripping mods. Whereas we could stand to educate disillusioned liberals in the wake of Trump's victory and attempt to turn them on to the left, the mods there insult and ban liberals at the slightest sign of dissent, refusing to educate and choosing to insult.

    Authoritarians will be authoritarians, I suppose.

    [–]fr79mal 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    The problem isn't that they ban ableist language. The problem is they ban people for even discussing what is or isn't ableist. How can you learn and improve if you aren't even allowed to discuss.

    [–]yourmatchmyfire 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I was banned probably because I was involved in the discussion of what constitutes ableist langauge. I wasn't even against the policy in general. There was one post where I even censored the word to comply with the rule but I was banned anyway.

    [–]fr79mal 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Same reason I was banned. Then I messaged the mods to ask what guideline I violated and they muted me.

    [–]yourmatchmyfire 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I literally wrote back, "Can I ask why?" and have received no answer.

    [–]hoodlum_ninja 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It seems like they're trying to outdo the authoritarianism of r/communism. I was banned from r/communism by a mod who had held power for only 6 days at the time, I broke no rules and all he basically did was give me a big "hey fuck you". r/socialism is doing exactly what liberals are criticized heavily for, which is thinking that using different words will actually change things. But no, disabled people in the US are still treated like shit and this language policing isn't helping them.

    [–]yourmatchmyfire 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Precisely. How is policing language going to actually change this? We should be pushing for active change and revolution where it really counts, not squabbling over words on a fucking subreddit. And remember, I wasn't against refraining from the use of certain words that have ableist connotations, I was against the policing of them without regard to the poster's intent. That, and some words are just not explicitly ableist - their usage is far wider and it is silly to simply ban the use of those words because they could be used in an ableist way. And most of the time these kinds of words are used against ideas, not people.

    UGH.

    [–]hoodlum_ninja 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And if you forget intention behind words you get this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oMpPB8ww6Pk

    And this man is speaking against racism, not defending it. But all context is disregarded and people start focusing on the use of certain words and not the issue at hand.

    [–]onewalleee 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I wish I knew more leftists like you guys.

    [–]MeatNoodleSauceCool Black Hat 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was never banned, but yeah, that tends to be the problem most people have with the policy.

    Many people would rather not remove words like "Dumb", "silly", etc. from their vernacular. Most people there are in full agreement that going around calling people "au-is-s", "r-t-rd", "sp-z", etc. Is fucked up and shouldn't be permitted. But saying someones idea is silly or dumb doesn't seem ableist to most people, and I fully agree.

    When I tried joining /r/Socialisms discord server so I could meet other leftists, I got about 30 minutes into their vetting process for trolls (which involved a thorough check of your reddit post history), and then because of this position I took on Ableism, they likened me to being a racism apologetic and after 5 minutes of discourse in which more and more people from their mod team joined in and lectured me, made me feel very unwelcome. I apologized for wasting their time and left.

    [–]excitedllamaRevolutionary Anarchist Movement of Arkansas 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think the whole "By socialists, for socialists" stance is kinda shit. Socialism isn't supposed to be an ivory tower. I understand and agree with banning trolls and reactionaries, but the people who just genuinely don't know better are met with the same treatment. In my opinion, I think it's better to let people discuss and debate rather than ban outright. I'll just leave it at that I guess. I don't really want to ramble

    [–]Thhueros 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's because they're not seeing socialism as it is. It's almost like it's not a political movement to them. One of the, literally said, I'll find the link if I can, "Quality over quantity" in response to people saying the ableist policy will drive newbies away. They don't want to grow or execute change. They just want to jerk off and feel superior and moral.

    [–]MMonReddit 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you. You put this so well. For me, it's a fine line to walk between alienating people that might be receptive to socialism by censoring them for saying things like "stupid" and allowing disenfranchised people to be abused. My opinion is that they aren't even trying to walk that line and are way, way too far on the side of censorship. Again, I don't want to discount the plight of those who the remarks might unintentionally refer to, but just think how a disillusioned liberal will feel when they say "man, Trump is an idiot" and they get banned? There's no way that this advances socialism, and it very likely hurts it.

    [–]poorpeopleRtheworst 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The science shows that people who tend to hold such beliefs don't generally change them even in the light of empirical evidence.

    [–]-Enkara-Reddit is for Cishet White Boys -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Your post reeks of liberal respectability politics TBH.

    [–]Windows_Update 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    No, my post notes that we need to educate people rather than just explicitly ban them from our movements for doing the slightest thing wrong. People like you are why liberals laugh at the left for being too easily offended and triggered, and confirms their beliefs that all we want to do is police thought and language. It turns them off from learning about our ideology and bringing them into our movement.

    If trying to educate liberals and make them leftists is "liberal respectability politics," then fucking fine, that's what I'm doing. If trying to reach out to liberals and make our movement more welcoming to them when they try to learn is "liberal respectability politics," then I'll gladly continue doing it. Education is an important aspect of left movements, and when a liberal trying to learn goes to /r/socialism and is banned for a saying something like "blind," that doesn't help educate, it ensures they'll never go back.

    [–]-Enkara-Reddit is for Cishet White Boys -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    If you want to educate liberals that's fine.

    You trying to dictate that no online spaces may implement anti-ableist policies because you're afraid it looks bad to liberals is fucking liberal respectability politics.

    [–]Windows_Update 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Cool. I'll gladly continue to make myself open to educating those that don't know much about us. You just continue being toxic and unable to hold a reasonable discussion, that'll help progress the left.

    Ableism is bad, yes, as I stated we should fight it, but I don't think just telling people "don't use those words! Bad words!" is going to stop them from using those words. Again, why not try to explain why those terms are bad? Why not try to help people understand why they should use different language? Why ban them on sight and act like that'll help solve the entire issue?

    [–]boilerpunxRace Baiter -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Asking you to educate someone in private for the benefit of those negatively affected by whatever needs to be educated on is not toxic. Fuck off with that bs. Making YOU do the work since YOU feel so strongly about it is not toxic. Safe spaces necessarily aren't the space for education.

    [–]Windows_Update 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So, what subreddit would a person on reddit go to to learn about socialism? What subreddit won't ban them on sight for using a wrong term that may be embedded into their vocabulary? /r/socialism gets plenty of posts from people wanting to learn, what happens if one of them naturally uses the word "stupid" or "dumb" when referring to something? Just insta-ban?

    [–]boilerpunxRace Baiter -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Dont they have a 101 subreddit. Why don't you work something out with the mods so that you can educate people that they banned. Or are you just one of those who wants to complain about people being banned without education but doesn't actually wanna teach? Cause we got plenty of those here already. Not to mention this is the internet, so pleading ignorance only gets you so far imo, when you have the breadth of human knowledge a few clicks away

    [–]-Enkara-Reddit is for Cishet White Boys -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm not discussing how the rule is enforced in /r/soc because I'm unaware of it and don't care to learn, there are good ways to enforce an anti-ableist language policy, LSC has an automod that removes posts that contain those words, people who argue against autoremovals get banned so that threads don't get derailed, if they keep arguing in modmail they stay banned, it works well.

    [–]Dakshinamurthyअराजकवादी 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Personally, in regards to situatuions where I am directly affected, I much prefer it when it is done publicly. It gives a sense that the community has my back in a way that silence and banning doesn't. I think it also serves as a useful template for how interactions like that should ideally go in situations absent of the power to "ban."

    [–]MMonReddit 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Why is it that I never seem to see you disagreeing with people here unless it's accompanied by incivility and saying stuff like "fuck off" and "fuck you"? I don't mean to be insulting, but it really, genuinely seems like you're unable to control yourself.

    [–]forcemon 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I have been a member of /r/socialism for about a year and I only recently joined /r/anarchism as I realized I didn't know a whole lot about it. But recently I have been noticing some things about the sub that have started to annoy me. Recently the mods put in a new ableist language policy that has garnered some grumbling from many of the members. I definitely don't like ableist language but some of the things that the mods have been going after are pretty ridiculous.

    I disagree with you on the topic of banning people for hate speech. We do get brigading from reactionaries every now and then so it is good to have that as a policy in case things get out of hand. However, I have seen it used against people in the community for minor things. I don't think it should be the go to by the mods but it is seemingly becoming that way.

    All in all, yes, /r/socialism is becoming rather authoritarian in their quest. However, the people in /r/socialism are not. Many of the members are having the same questions and there is a thread going right now to talk about it (I think, it might have been locked I have checked in a while). I think the mods need to become less heavy handed or else we are going to lose a lot of support that we have gained in recent months just by some internet BS.

    [–]ConsciousExotica 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    /r/socialism is taking after its idols Mao and Stalin. Tankies gonna' tank.

    [–]psychothumbs 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The parallels between how authoritarians take over countries post-revolution and how the current mods took over /r/socialism really are striking.

    [–]unthrowmeaway| ex-muslim 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Holy shit.

    This response should be wikified, or immortalized somehow, so that people can understand what that sub represents for what it is. Like what the hell.

    I understand that point of view if it's directed at capitalists, but when directed at leftists with more or less the same objectives it is insane.

    What the hell. Lol.

    [–]Paradoxiumm 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Looking at the new post about Ableism on r/socialism and it's like they have become a parody of the left or something.

    P.S. Capitalism is stupid :p

    [–]MMonReddit 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The mods of /r/socialism are absolute jokes power tripping over a subreddit. And it just makes me sad when leftists say stuff like "fuck Chomsky." He's one of the best voices for socialism and that's the thanks he gets? It's like it's always a purity contest and nothing ever gets done.

    [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I don't like the way /r/socialism is modded, and I think they are too ban happy -- but I also disagree with you and am opposed to absolute free speech as a principle, and as a mod here I don't uphold that principle at all. I wouldn't ban you for disagreeing with me on that point though -- but I do disagree with you. But I also do think educating people is preferable to banning them in cases of dealing with ignorance -- but not when dealing with reactionaries and trolls.

    But the thing I disagree with the most, and what prompted me to actually write a response here, is the idea that "political hegemony is the name of the game" and that "socialism is authoritarian". Fuck that, and fuck the Stalin fellating piece of shit who wrote that.

    Political hegemony and authoritarianism is the opposite of resistance and revolt (the two things are incompatible), and the people who act otherwise need to be treated with distrust. I'm thinking more about the real world than an internet board when I say that -- but the sentiment they expressed was ignorant and shameful.

    [–]bigblindmax/ decentralist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    💯💯💯

    Fuckin' state capitalists.

    [–]HuffMar 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Being socialist isn't enough. You have to subscribe to 100% of their beliefs and (ironically) not even question it if you want to avoid an inbox full of hate.

    Annoying AF. I thought we were on the progressive, intelligent side of things.

    [–]Kaysuhdiller 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (27子コメント)

    Same shit going on at /r/LateStageCapitalism, I've been banned for defending the use of the word 'crazy'. Yay.

    [–]selver- -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The mods over there rule with an iron fist, and I fucking love it. That place would be /r/politics if it weren't for those policies, they get way too much leakage from /r/all.

    [–]big_al11 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    same with /r/fullcommunism. they laugh about killing or imprisoning millions but woe betide you if you say "blind"

    [–]edmiborn 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wow, and I thought /r/socialism was bad before. This is absolute madness.

    [–]Saitama_the_llama 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    What is the sub like at the moment? I stopped going on there in about February..

    [–]Loves_His_Bong 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    It's predominated by heavy handed moderation now.

    [–]Saitama_the_llama 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    What kind of moderation? Good Communist moderation or liberal moderation?

    [–]imeakvidyageamsmaoist -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    They ban liberals and oppressive language so communist.

    [–]Klupaanarchist communist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    autonomist maoist

    Nice meme.

    [–]imeakvidyageamsmaoist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    anarchist communist

    Now this is some of the hard hitting nice mems I've been looking for

    mems aside, aren't most maoist groups in the west autonomist? Like Tjen Folket in Norway for example?

    [–]0TOYOT0 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This type of thing was the first thing about the left that pissed me off when I first switched sides. Now I'm not against banning people for being overtly homophobic or racist or sexist. Now call me a brocialist but banning people for saying stupid is idiotic.

    [–]-AllIsVanity- 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Here's another thread with evidence of abuse by your mods, /u/CometParty.

    [–]ieatpussy69minimalist communist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Idk man, looking at that sub makes me feel completely alienated from socialism, and I've been one since forever.

    Where are the reasonable, experimental, forward thinking and open minded leftists?

    [–]kupositive 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Censoring words from mouths and fingers doesn't censor minds in thinking them or behaviors in acting on them.

    I don't think political correctness is remotely effective at anything except providing comfortable illusions and echo chambers for people to live in.

    When you censor words, the thoughts still exist and linger in the minds and behavior of people. A comfortable illusion is formed that racism, ableism, sexism, or any other issue is improving because less bad words are heard, while nothing is actually changing. In reality, they could be getting worse and we are none the wiser when we don't hear what people are really thinking.

    In fact, Trump getting elected shattered a lot of illusions. There were a lot more Trump supporters than any poll suggested and liberals thought they had this in the bag. Why? Because a lot of people don't talk about issues which might offend the politically correct.

    It's better to know and confront uncomfortable truths than live in a fantasy where if all the bad words are silenced, the bad things go away. We are less informed when censoring the realities of the mind.

    [–]TimothyGonzalez 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I got banned for questioning the rabid anti-"cultural appropriation" bullshit that was going on there. I'm so sorry I think having a Tiki- Themed party with fucking hula-hoops and limbo-dancing is not a bloody mortal sin.

    [–]psychothumbs 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was recently banned for a comment in another subreddit saying I support legalizing prostitution.

    What can be done about his mod team? How did they take over? It's really embarrassing when you're trying to convince people socialism isn't inherently authoritarian and then people like this take over one of the leading online socialist communities. Pretty great advertisement for the "they're all basically Stalinists" argument.

    [–]OmiC 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Serious answer since you say you're new to these online communities. The internet, and reddit in particular, is a huge stronghold for white nationalism and Nazis. You were probably banned because that wall of text you wrote looks like it was copy pasted by a Nazi concern troll. There comes a point where it is just worthless to engage with those sorts of arguments because the sub will immediately be overrun by them, making it impossible for any actual discussion.

    [–]ConsciousExotica 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The internet, and reddit in particular, is a huge stronghold for white nationalism and Nazis

    Yes, and banning people for using everyday idioms and expression is certainly going to turn the tide and grant us triumph over white nationalism.

    [–]OmiC -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The new r/soc policy is pretty extreme to an absurd degree, but I'm not talking about that specific policy. I just think it's understandable why OP got banned, regardless of the context. That's the kind of stuff that's probably immediately blacklisted without even looking at what they're talking about.

    [–]imeakvidyageamsmaoist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just because it's part of the status-quo doesn't mean it shouldn't be opposed.

    [–]soccerskymanWobbly 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm fine with /r/socialism banning ableist language and honestly, I hope /r/anarchism follows. Fuck freeze peach types. I do think straight up bans are too harsh for light use of it, but it should be discouraged. We must work to remove the capitalists in our heads, constantly driving a wedge between us and our comrades. Unfortunately, reddit doesn't offer many alternatives to banning, but I feel as though we can come up with something.

    [–]LafayetteLeverCommunalist | Sikh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Honestly, it's not difficult to stop using ableist language and if a community is choosing to prevent it why not respect those wishes. Of course, a lot of those words are normalized, but again, it's not difficult to find similar words that convey the same message.

    i.e. Crazy - Absurd, Stupid - 'lacking thought' or 'poorly thought out'.

    [–]GrabGrabTheHaddock 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    While I agree the r/soc team have gone too far with their new rules, the freeze peach is way too strong with this post. 'Free speech' is not an entitlement to barge into any community spewing racist, homophobic or misogynist trash. Rules on hate-language are a necessary way of keeping people with poisonous views out of socialist communities.

    [–]Tzadikim 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    [–]Loves_His_Bong 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Yes. It's called /r/anarchism.

    [–]Tzadikim 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes yes, but I mean an anarchist sub that uses "socialism" in the label. Or r/anarchocommunism. Or whatever.

    A not-insignificant number of American posters who would otherwise be sympathetic towards decentralist, anti-authoritarian leftism see the word "anarchist" and think of something like anarchocapitalism.

    [–]effective_dreams 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    posters who would otherwise be sympathetic towards decentralist, anti-authoritarian leftism see the word "anarchist" and think of something like anarchocapitalism.

    Such a bummer.

    [–]RedBrenden 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't really see this as an issue of free speech any more than if they asked you to avoid using triggering language. Arguing about it and making a huge issue of it just seems sort of pointless. I dunno if I personally consider those words ableist considering how divorced they are from their original meaning at this point, but why not just say "alright, sorry, i'll try not to in the future, my bad"?

    edit: to clarify i'm not much of a fan of r/soc, but this just seems like a weird hill to die on.

    [–]crossisbending 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Some of this is natural wrangling over mechanics of moderation in the sub. I've had my own experiences with mods and ableism there. In general, people have been pretty thoughtful all along the spectrum of opinion on the issue of ableism and moderation. But there have been times when the standards seem pretty unreasonable.

    I will say that some of this is probably also ideological. You've got Leninists over there who honestly don't believe in an open society. Some of the mods have strong tendencies along these lines. Usually, they seem to be even-handed. But it's no surprise there would be conflicts between libertarian socialists and vanguardists.

    [–]Potss 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, r/socialism is cancer. Tankies and liberals and state socialists aren't your friends.

    [–]sigbhu -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    anarchists fighting socialists = fascists win

    [–]-AllIsVanity- 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Implying that we aren't socialists and that Leninists are.

    [–]TotesMessenger -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    [–]bigblindmax/ decentralist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Fack off.

    [–]Thhueros 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    "Everyone I disagree with is a liberal or a fascist" -the highschool tankies that make up the reddit left