上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]chindogubot 2238 ポイント2239 ポイント  (497子コメント)

Apparently the gist of the flaw is that you can amend the constitution to make it easier to make amendments and eventually strip all the protections off. https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-flaw-Kurt-Gödel-discovered-in-the-US-constitution-that-would-allow-conversion-to-a-dictatorship

[–]j0y0 126 ポイント127 ポイント  (8子コメント)

fun fact, turkey tried to fix this by making an article saying certain other articles can't be amended, but that article never stipulates it can't itself be amended.

[–]ba14 2627 ポイント2628 ポイント  (284子コメント)

And North Carolina is currently beta testing this theory

[–]jiggycashthesecond_ 767 ポイント768 ポイント  (54子コメント)

Am from NC, can confirm.

[–]Double_U120 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

What the hell is going on in North Carolina, I'm just sitting up here on my couch on the roof and ain't seen or heard nothin

[–]jatheist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Republican legislature and governor just stripped the incoming Democratic governor of as much power as they could.

[–]toxicbrew 174 ポイント175 ポイント  (28子コメント)

Man I feel sorry for you guys. Guess the only way they see things right is if companies threaten to leave, do excuse me for saying I hope they do unless things change there

[–]theresamouseinmyhous [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Our moral monday movement is slow but things are changing. We got cooper after all.

[–]duouehuduiode [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

the scary thing is if the opposite happens.

Companies coming in to lobby for changes that is detriment of the population but good for the corporation.

[–]uniqueguy263 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (12子コメント)

But it doesn't even look like that'll work

[–]J4CKR4BB1TSL1MS [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

No. In real life, companies don't 'threaten' to leave. They just leave. And once they do, things likely won't change for the better as it won't be perceived as cause-and-effect. It might even make things worse.

[–]man-eating-chicken [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

this isn't my area of expertise, but i do know that it is a fairly common practice within professional sports for owners to threaten to relocate. whether it applies to other businesses as well, i don't know.

[–]Bobo480 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It definitely applies to businesses as well. Be it looking for tax breaks or any other concessions. The companies have massive leverage, just upping and leaving leaves all that leverage on the table.

[–]FromChiToNY [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You are correct and the poster above you is wrong. Companies are constantly leveraging the thousands of jobs they provide in order to push local reform, especially when it comes to tax breaks.

[–]LaLongueCarabine 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (179子コメント)

Really? North Carolina has amended the constitution?

[–]vaelux 197 ポイント198 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think they are talking about A Constitution, not THE Constitution. Each state has its own constitution.

[–]5zepp 516 ポイント517 ポイント  (161子コメント)

They did a few years ago to make gay marriage illegal. Currently they are stripping powers from the governor to obstruct the incoming democrat. Reducing his staff hiring capability from 1500 to 300, forcing him to keep his rival's staff, among other power grabs. Once they stack the deck to be able to amend the constitution without opposition, you better believe they will, these guys are relentless.

[–]FunkMetalBass 558 ポイント559 ポイント  (72子コメント)

among other power grabs.

I think one of the more overlooked attempts is that they've even put in a clause that swaps the chair of county elections every other year - a democrat in odd years, a republican in even years. This almost sounds reasonable until you remember that elections occur in even years...

[–]5zepp 191 ポイント192 ポイント  (43子コメント)

Wow, just wow.

[–]powerfunk [スコア非表示]  (42子コメント)

One of the most shocking things about this ordeal is that John H. Valquist, former NC state senator, was behind the whole thing. He drafted a bill to make this even-odd-year change, but he doubted it would pass via standard procedures. His brother Paul P. Valquist owns a large chain of 7/11-like convenience stores called "Valquist Express" mostly in the most rural, Republican-leaning parts of the state. So, J. Valquist used this to his advantage to try to get a ballot initiative through.

P. Valquist aggressively collected signatures at each of his Valquist Express locations, even allegedly offering (illegal) discounts if the customer agreed to sign the petition. Quickly, the measure had tens of thousands of signatures, and with such (perceived) popular support, the bill went through without a hitch. Paul and John Valquist are currently in the midst of a large family feud (relating to their grandfather's iron ore mining company), and Paul has gone on record stating that he regrets his shady signature-collection tactics.

The only reason more people don't know about this is because none of it's true and I made all of this up just now.

[–]Mamsaac [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I find your comment really important, because until the last line, I was pretty convinced it was viable. I was about to google the story and see if I could find more about it, particularly the "has gone on record stating...".

I wonder how many lies like that I actually believe and never discover its falsiness.

[–]Astrosherpa [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Slap this on a website called "Realpatriotsnetwork.com" and watch the ad revenue pour in!

[–]storm_detach [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Don't do that. By definition, the only people who get your point are the ones who read to the end or start fact-checking before they get to the end. The people you're trying to teach a lesson to are the ones who stop reading halfway through and come away misinformed.

[–]slimCyke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think we all learned a valuable lesson from this.

[–]Xisuthrus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The sad part isn't that you fooled me, the sad part is that this is plausible.

[–]I_Conquer [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So the fake news that the other fake news was warning me about was real in its fakeness this whole time? I thought it was fake like climate change or Iceland.

[–]vonarchimboldi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I was wondering how I'd never seen a "Valquist Express".

[–]LocustFurnace [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Thanks for making me spit up coffee on myself in public.

[–]Jaypalm [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"One of the most shocking things about this ordeal is that John H. Valquist, former NC state senator, was behind the whole thing. He drafted a bill to make this even-odd-year change, but he doubted it would pass via standard procedures. His brother Paul P. Valquist owns a large chain of 7/11-like convenience stores called "Valquist Express" mostly in the most rural, Republican-leaning parts of the state. So, J. Valquist used this to his advantage to try to get a ballot initiative through.

P. Valquist aggressively collected signatures at each of his Valquist Express locations, even allegedly offering (illegal) discounts if the customer agreed to sign the petition. Quickly, the measure had tens of thousands of signatures, and with such (perceived) popular support, the bill went through without a hitch. Paul and John Valquist are currently in the midst of a large family feud (relating to their grandfather's iron ore mining company), and Paul has gone on record stating that he regrets his shady signature-collection tactics."

Just trim the fat a bit and BAM! Perfect /r/politics post!

[–]is_it_fun [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Live near NC for years, was wondering where all that Valquist nonsense came from.

[–]Zapfaced 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Okay that's hilarious.

[–]ChasingBeerMoney 80 ポイント81 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean, if chipping away at democracy is hilarious, sure.

[–]2rapey4you 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (10子コメント)

and sounds like it must be illegal, right?

[–]spikus93 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Nope. Federal law doesn't dictate how state elections should work. They can only set rules for federal ones like presidency. It's up to the state legislature and whoever is in charge of your states voting, usually its a Secretary of State.

[–]KindaTwisted [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Not if you're making the rules and the people you serve don't give a shit.

Hint: the politicians start doing things like this when the people they serve don't give a shit.

[–]geekygay 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well, no. It isn't.

[–]trenchknife 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah. lt's pretty much just a choice between weeping or giggling at this point.

[–]ohgodhelpmedenver [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

In related news the NC legislature has redefined the official garb of the governor's office, required for all official actions, to include a hat with a large floppy dildo glued to it.

[–]easyj86 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Does their state constitution not mention separation of powers?

[–]someguynamedjohn13 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Many states in the south and mid-west have a long tiring history of forgoing any law of the land. The Civil War was the worst example of how this country could react to industrialization. Now in the Digital Age we are seeing how poorly the same people react when they feel their livelihood is threatened. By livelihood I mean religion, wealth, and way of life.

America and humanity in general have done a poor job of transitioning between eras. People get left behind or they try for dear life to stop advancement, because the refused to learn or grow or change.

[–]changee_of_ways [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

As a Midwesterner, I feel like I should point out that the mid-west above the Mason-Dixon line is a different place than the mid-west below the Mason-Dixon.

[–]trumpetmuppet 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What happens when all three branches are controlled by an obstructionist and petty group of individuals.

There are no real conservatives left. Just parties willing to enact social agendas by expanding the government.

[–]graphictruth [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Not so much expanding - although that's always a side business; rent-seeking and patronage is always a thing. But to go with an old joke, it's not how big it is, it's how you use it.

Imagine when it's only useful for fucking people over for the benefit of those so entrenched they can't be ejected short of violence - you have the ultimate goal in sight. Whatever ideology or ideals are cited at the parades for the Leadership are irrelevant.

[–]ChipsHanden 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (6子コメント)

forcing him to keep his rival's staff

They do realize this will just bite them in the ass come their turn to assume office, right?

[–]Peregrinations12 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right now the districts in NC heavily favor the Republicans. NC actually has have special elections next year due to a court finding their gerrymandering unconstitutional due to the way they used race to draw favorable districts to Republicans. The new maps might be slightly less favorable than the old ones for the GOP, but they still will likely maintain a large majority.

So, most likely the next time the GOP wins the governors office, they can just reverse these laws.

[–]FuzzyBacon 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They'll just change it back then.

[–]loloflamingo 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except... Dictatorship...

[–]AEB9B 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Only if they lose the assembly as well.

[–]ChipsHanden [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I wonder how many seedy laws like this would be passed if they couldn't be reversed willy nilly. Raise the stakes, see how hard they fuck with each other if they have to suffer their own consequences as well.

[–]MCL8687 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hahaha really? Wow, North Carolina.

[–]toadofsteel 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Why the hell do Republicans have to be such shitbags?

[–]TeddyBearSuicide 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because they're afraid. Fear is a powerful motivator. See, e.g., The Patriot Act.

[–]flapanther33781 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Actually there's a duality. For everything you're afraid of there's also something you desire, and vice versa.

In other words, there are things they fear which they are averse to, as well as things they desire which they are attracted to.

I won't go through the list of things they're afraid of, but the thing they're attracted to is control. Mainly because they believe that via control they can control the outcome to avoid the things they fear.

Unfortunately most people are too short-sighted to understand their attempts to control often precipitate/empower the very things they fear, and that control is not the proper response to fear.

[–]borkthegee 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (5子コメント)

They amended the state constitution as soon as the opposition won the governor to roll back powers for the governor.

It's hypocritical because they've been expanding it for Republicans for years, but as soon as they lost, they immediately undid everything and massively gimped the governors office to the extent that it's almost a figurehead.

Shocking and radical destruction of the office and a naked rejection of checks and balances... They're concentrating power ideologically

[–]ohgodhelpmedenver [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

A NC GOP'er was just on TV saying derisively "well he'll still get to move into the mansion," so that should be enough.

[–]LunaPolaris [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Oh man, just when you think the political environment in this country couldn't get any more toxic...

[–]ImmodestPolitician [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's not hypocritical if that is standard operating policy for the GOP. /s

[–]gittar 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The state Constitution, not federal

[–]SudenlyLochNess 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oh good so as long as it happens over there it shouldn't bother me here

[–]borkthegee 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's called the laboratory of the states for a reason. This is coming to you soon

[–]Arthur_Edens [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If only state politics didn't affect national elections.

[–]Feeling_Arkansaucey 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The state constitution. From my understanding the outgoing governor has limited the powers of incoming Governor Cooper, which is threatening to sue, which very well could happen, because I'm pretty sure he's AG. I'm not super familiar with what's going on, just heard a bit on NPR as I was arriving at work.

[–]ElagabalusRex1 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They keep sneaking into the Archives at night and adding new sheets with a paperclip.

[–]Dicethrower 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where do I send the bug reports?

[–]orthopod 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well not really. They have been for years, expanding the governor's role and scope of powers. Currently they are retracting those same items that they previously granted.

[–]TheOtherCircusPeanut [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

Except NC is moving power from the executive branch to the legislature.... So the opposite of a dictatorship....

Edit: Look guys, the NC legislature is engaging in a complete power grab from the governor for completely political purposes. BUT the end result is more political power in the more directly democratic body of government. That's the opposite of dictatorship. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's tyrannical.

[–]mainfingertopwise 295 ポイント296 ポイント  (108子コメント)

That's not very clever - I expected something a lot more amazing than that. Of course the nature of a nation of laws can be changed by changing the law.

[–]eypandabear 190 ポイント191 ポイント  (82子コメント)

The point is that the constitution itself allows for these changes to be made.

The German constitution, for instance, forbids changes to certain parts of itself, and gives every German the right to violently overthrow the government if this is attempted.

[–]Odilious128 91 ポイント92 ポイント  (29子コメント)

We kinda have the overthrow part but it's confusing. The second amendment had that idea in mind if the government went south but you'd be a terrorist and traitor. When I joined the American army as a young man I swore an oath to defend the nation against all enemies both foreign and domestic, but I don't know what exactly the domestic part means. I feel like some parties/people in charge are domestic enemies of America, but I promise if I fulfil my oath I'll be thrown into a hole and the key will get melted. I often feel very torn over all that stuff.

[–]doormatt26 81 ポイント82 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Key thing is, you swear to defend the US Constitution against those enemies, not any specific representative. If ever forced to choose between the Constitution and the order of a President, the Constitution has primacy.

[–]TheLAriver [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No the key thing is the tool that'll be rarely used to open the door to his cell.

[–]progressivesoup [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

"and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me". They also swear an oath directly to the President. I'm sure the UCMJ has some sort of rules about what happens if defending the Constitution and obeying the President become mutually exclusive.

[–]offoutover [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We could talk for days about the details of hypothetical situations but basically if the President's orders go against the constitution then that would be an unlawful order and you don't have to follow it. Of course there most likely would be an investigation and there is the possibility you'd be brought up under UCMJ Art. 92, failure to obey order or regulation, and have to prove your case.

[–]pwnography [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I too took the oath at a very young age, and also have torn feelings. The reason I left was because when you put that uniform on, you surrender your right to choose who your enemy is. You're a wind up toy that they point towards the enemy and let go. You have to have 100% confidence in your government, and at 18 years old I don't think I was old enough to have a good opinion.

[–]Keinichn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Doesn't that oath also say you uphold the constitution against enemies as well? Meaning your duty is to uphold the constitution, not necessarily the will of those in charge.

[–]fat_loser_junkie [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That struggle is the mark of a good man.

You're a good man.

Keep it up.

[–]kylco [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

That's actually a new and very questionable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Basically nobody but Scalia and the pro-gun movement his rulings have inspired believe that the 2nd Amendment includes an implicit right to insurrection in the face of tyranny. At the time of signing, the US didn't have a standing Army and it was a matter of serious debate whether it should ever have one. As a check against that happening, the Founders pushed the 2nd Amendment as a way to prevent the federal government from stopping States from forming militias. It was assumed that this would lead the Federal government to rely on the states for manpower and the core of a military in the event of a war - and that nearly any war would be defensive in nature, anyway (which proved to be the case for rather a long time).

The personal, individual right to unregulated firearms ownership is a very recent and novel interpretation of the Amendment, whatever the NRA has paid a lot of lobbyists to think. As early as thirty years ago, the NRA was in favor of more stringent controls on guns, and Ronald Reagan famously passed strict gun control laws in California once black political activists started to conspicuously arm themselves and open carry at rallies as a tacit counter to blatant police oppression. It wasn't until DC's handgun law was struck down in - I want to say 2002? - that the personal individual right was so explicitly laid down by the SCOTUS.

[–]Kelend [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The personal, individual right to unregulated firearms ownership is a very recent and novel interpretation of the Amendment

Not true. We can go as far back as Dred Scott. The court was so concerned about granting citizenship to blacks that they enumerated the rights they would have if that so happened.

It would give to persons of the Negro race, ... the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, ... the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went

The justices weren't afraid of the scary blacks joining the militia. They were scared of them having an individual right to own weapons.

[–]nidrach 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Somewhat different with the Austrian constitution. Changes to it that alter the very nature of the constitution require a referendum. joining the EU for example needed a referendum.

[–]browsin_is_a_paddlin 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (29子コメント)

... and gives every German the right to violently overthrow the government if this is attempted.

Is that so? I often hear something similar claimed about the US constitution, but I don't really buy it.

Edit: Hi, thanks for the responses but I'm super not interested in arguing about the second amendment. I was just curious whether this right is explicitly granted in the German constitution.

[–]notbobby125 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Thomas Jefferson made personal statements that liberty must be constantly defended and it's the duty of the people to fight against tyranny. However, this was the personal opinions of Thomas Jefferson and not anything codified into US law.

Edit: It was his Tree of Liberty quote.

[–]Crustice_is_Served [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Declarationism argues that the constitution is only given its legal weight by the Declaration of Independence- so some people argue that the Declaration of Independence is law. This argument is tentative at best but can be very compelling.

[–]HAL9000000 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think the problem is that it's not an "inconsistency." It's a feature of the Constitution that can be turned into a loophole and abused.

This is important and somewhat clever just in the sense that the standard romanticist's notion of the US is that we are impervious to dictatorships. He's rejecting that shortsighted notion and trying to point out how it could happen.

[–]falco_iii [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

There is a constitution. One of the articles of the constitution defines how to change the constitution - making it very difficult. However, using the change the constitution process, you can change the article that defines how to change the constitution, making it easy for one person to change the constitution. Dictatorship.

[–]Anthmt 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (15子コメント)

This Godel fella sounds like an annoying little shit.

[–]blbd 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Being an annoying little shit in mathematics was his raison d'etre! He discovered the mind blowing incompleteness theorem.

[–]GelfandFomin 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well no, he was a brilliant mathematician and logician.

[–]Tsorovar 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh. Well, duh.

[–]Ken_M_Bone_III [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah, considering the amendment process resembles the initial ratification process, I don't see why this is surprising

[–]Bounty1Berry 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (19子コメント)

I always did find it odd that apparently only a tiny portion of the constitution is marked as unamendable.

[–]lazylion_ca 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

For us non americans, which part?

[–]TheManWithTheBigName 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There must always be equal representation of the states in the Senate.

[–]Arthur_Edens [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Provided... that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

So I mean, you could do it, it would just require 100% approval instead of 75%.

Side note: what if you amend the amendment process to delete that requirement first, then change the Senate representation?

[–]KriosDaNarwal [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's Article V IIRC and that can be amended too

[–]scoodly 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (11子コメント)

The only time never is written in the constitution is in an article that forbids requiring a religious test be administered before an individual can hold public office. Theoretically then, this is the only thing that can't be changed.

[–]cacaoHaus 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's neither a flaw nor an inconsistency.

[–]koproller 2615 ポイント2616 ポイント  (187子コメント)

It's Kurt Godel. Good luck finding any complete system that he deems consistent enough.

[–]MBPyro 1297 ポイント1298 ポイント  (158子コメント)

If anyone is confused, Godel's incompleteness theorem says that any compete system cannot be consistent, and any consistent system cannot be complete.

[–]paullllllll 466 ポイント467 ポイント  (46子コメント)

Basically breaking everyone's (especially Russell's) dreams of a unified theory of mathematics

[–]koproller 138 ポイント139 ポイント  (41子コメント)

I think, especially in the case of Bertrand Russell, "dream" is a bit of an understatement.

[–]ericdoes 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (39子コメント)

Can you elaborate on what you mean...?

[–]amphicoelias 144 ポイント145 ポイント  (32子コメント)

Russell didn't just "dream" of a unified theory of mathematics. He actively tried to construct one. These efforts produced, amongst other things, the Principia Mathematics. To get a feeling for the scale of this work, this excerpt is situated on page 379 (360 of the "abridged" version).

[–]LtCmdrData [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Modern version is Metamath Proof Explorer It Constructs mathematics from scratch, starting from ZFC set theory axioms. Over 18,000 proofs.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html#trivia

We selected the theorem 2 + 2 = 4 for this example rather than 1 + 1 = 2 because the latter is essentially the definition we chose for 2 and thus has a trivial proof. In Principia Mathematica, 1 and 2 are cardinal numbers, so its proof of 1 + 1 = 2 is different:

The complete proof of 2 + 2 = 4 involves 2,452 subtheorems and it has 25,933 steps. A longest path back to an axiom from 2 + 2 = 4 is 150 layers deep!

[–]Hispanicwhitekid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

This is why I'll stick with applied mathematics rather than math theory.

[–]fp42 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This isn't the sort of thing that most mathematicians concern themselves with.

[–]plazmablu [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Why does it require so many proofs? Can't they just show two dots and two more dots, then group them into four dots? Genuine question.

[–]Okichah [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

ELI5 that excerpt?

[–]BlindSoothsprayer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Bootstrapping the foundations of mathematics up from nothing is really difficult. You have to be really skeptical towards common sense and provide rigorous proofs for everything, even 1 + 1 = 2.

[–]DavidPastrnak 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (2子コメント)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica

Russell spent a serious amount of time and effort trying to establish a rigorous foundation for all of math.

[–]pinkfairy-armadillo 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (96子コメント)

ELI5 on what consistent and complete mean in this context?

[–]Glinth 162 ポイント163 ポイント  (91子コメント)

Complete = for every true statement, there is a logical proof that it is true.

Consistent = there is no statement which has both a logical proof of its truth, and a logical proof of its falseness.

[–]gawdybaubles 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (84子コメント)

So why does Godel think those two can't live together in harmony? They both seem pretty cool with each other.

[–]Jeccems 65 ポイント66 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Godel doesn't think they can't, he has proven that they cannot.

[–]regular_gonzalez 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The full explanation is a bit esoteric. Perhaps the most approachable explanation of Godel's proof can be found in Douglas Hofstadter's book "I Am A Strange Loop". Here's my attempt at an analogy using logic and the english language.

Let us say that we hate ambiguity and set out to prove every possible sentence in the English language as a true or untrue statement. Ambitious but doable, no? "Elephants can fly" is false. "Elephants are larger than mosquitoes" is true. Simple. OK, how about: "Using the rules of formal logic, this sentence can not be proven to be true." Uh-oh. If we try to prove this sentence is true, we immediately undermine it. Curiously, the same thing happens if we decide to prove this sentence is false (i.e., it's false that the sentence can not be determined to be true == we can determine that the sentence is true, but that means, by its very text, that it's a true statement that it can't be true). Here is an example of a statement that is "true" (we know in our gut that it's true) but not provable (i.e., trying to use logic to prove this immediately undermines it).

The astute reader may say "Ah ha! The problem is self-reference -- the sentence is talking about itself and that is going to inevitably lead to problems and paradoxes. Let us devise a system of language wherein self-reference is banned." This is precisely what Bertrand Russell and Alfred North Whitehead tried to do in their Principia Mathematica. Self-reference had long been a bugaboo in the field of mathematics and their work was an attempt to establish a complete, consistent mathematical framework wherein all mathematical calculations could be performed but the existence of self-reference was eliminated. Godel, in his famous paper, proved that it was impossible to eliminate self-reference. Again, the reasons why are esoteric and beyond the scope of this text box but I strenuously recommend anyone who finds this to be intriguing to read that Hofstadter book. It is a great examination of Godel's proof and one comes away awed at Godel's brilliance.

The implications of this proof also go far beyond the scope of this comment but are incredibly far reaching in ways both obvious and less so. His incompleteness theorem ranks with Einstein's Theory of General Relativity as one of the greatest and most important discoveries of the 20th Century in my opinion.

[–]nonotan [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Similar to the proof that the halting problem is undecidable, one of the most important and useful results in Computer Science. It's funny how a little bit of self-referential hocus pocus that looks almost juvenile at first glance can turn out to be so powerful.

[–]channingman19 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He has a proof that shows that for any system complex enough the two cannot coexist.

[–]omnilynx 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The actual theorem is that no sufficiently complex system can do both, where "sufficient" means that you can use the system to do arithmetic. He found that any system that can do arithmetic also must be capable of forming a statement similar to "this statement is false".

[–]aonghasan 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Math is based on axioms. Statements that are true because they are defined as such, and every other statement in a system is reached using only axioms as proof. But you can't have logical proof that axioms are true, because they were defined true, not proven.

[–]aris_ada 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are also statements that aren't axioms but still are un-provably true. That's why we don't know if some conjectures (like P=NP) will be proven or disproved one day.

[–]TwoFiveOnes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This isn't what his results refer to though. Of course we cannot "prove" axioms. It's unclear what that would even mean. Incompleteness here refers to truths within an axiomatic system, but which cannot be proven from it.

[–]dasseth 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not even that he thinks they can't, he logically proved that they cant. No consistent system is complete and vice-versa. Look up Godel's incompleteness theorems, it's pretty interesting stuff.

[–]cougar2013 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Basically, if you have a mathematical system that is more than trivially complex, there are statements that cannot be proven true or false. I probably don't have the best understanding of it, so maybe someone will correct me.

[–]yes_its_him 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

The ELI5 example would be a mathematical equivalent of "This statement is false." Is that statement true, or false?

[–]marouf33 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

in other words:

Consistent = If a statement can be proven then it must be true.

[–]core-questions 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The idea is this: any sufficiently advanced - or "complete" - mathematical language will be flexible enough to let you make the math equivalent of "this sentence is false", your standard paradox. That's an inconsistent statement. But, if you make a math language that doesn't let you say things like that, it's limited and incomplete.

[–]Infinite_Regress 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Any sufficiently complex system cannot be both consistent and complete. As written, this is straightforwardly false, see propositional logic.

[–]bdtddt 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Plenty of complete and consistent systems out there, they just can't implement first-order arithmetic.

[–]soitsmydayoff 314 ポイント315 ポイント  (63子コメント)

The Wikipedia page doesn't say what the inconsistency was, it only says he saw one. Does anyone know what led him to believe America could become a Nazi-esque regime based on the Constitution?

[–]friedgold119 244 ポイント245 ポイント  (53子コメント)

Quora has an answer

"The mathematician and philosopher Kurt Gödel reportedly discovered a deep logical contradiction in the US Constitution. What was it? In this paper, the author revisits the story of Gödel’s discovery and identifies one particular “design defect” in the Constitution that qualifies as a “Gödelian” design defect. In summary, Gödel’s loophole is that the amendment procedures set forth in Article V self-apply to the constitutional statements in article V themselves, including the entrenchment clauses in article V. Furthermore, not only may Article V itself be amended, but it may also be amended in a downward direction (i.e., through an “anti-entrenchment” amendment making it easier to amend the Constitution). Lastly, the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable. In addition, the author identifies some “non-Gödelian” flaws or “design defects” in the Constitution and explains why most of these miscellaneous design defects are non-Gödelian or non-logical flaws."

[–]justanothervogel 245 ポイント246 ポイント  (31子コメント)

This is not a big deal at all. If you make it impossible to ever change anything, you are only making surer that at some point a civil war will break out when something must be changed (whatever it may be, we cannot know the world as it is in 400 years from now. - "We must change it" "Can't" "Must" "Can't"... until the matter is pressing enough that some people shot some other people over it and there we are).

Which leads us to another insight: Any piece of paper is only worth the amount of people (and - effectively - military might) standing by it. You can have the perfectestest constitution ever - if nobody bothers that's it. Say the United States would see [absolutely unlikely as it is] her entire military revolt to install the New United States. What you gonna do? Stand there and recite the old constitution? That's not magically going to protect you from any flying bullets.

[–]BreezyMcWeasel 104 ポイント105 ポイント  (25子コメント)

This is completely true. I read the old Soviet Constitution. It guarantees lots of things, too (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc), but those provisions were ignored, so those rights were meaningless.

[–]stanglemeir 86 ポイント87 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Yeah this is why I think America's weird, almost cult-like, obsession with our Constitution is a good thing. People tend to flip shit when they feel the constitution is being trampled. While there are differing interpretations of the constitution, both sides tend to agree on its importance.

It's like how the fight against gay marriage has turned to an amendment for the most part (fat chance of that). Something these people are so rabidly against is now a part of the constitutional system because of the Supreme Court, so they can't fight it with legislation anymore.

[–]kJer 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (13子コメント)

There are arguably more people for(not against) gay marriage than those who are actively against.

[–]fuckyourguns 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (11子コメント)

arguably? gay marriage hovers at around 60% support in practically every poll released the past couple of years, lol.

[–]averagesmasher 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Well, can't argue with polls, right?

[–]All_Fallible [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

You could. It would just be difficult. Data gives you a lot of credibility. There is no such thing as 100% certainty but just because every poll is not right does not mean every poll should be ignored.

[–]IBison [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

[–]BlindSoothsprayer [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I was getting a little tired of hearing "the polls were wrong" after the election, as if statistics were binary. None of the polls said Trump cannot win. They said he was less likely to win.

[–]Darktidemage 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (9子コメント)

the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable.

So... .not a problem with the US constitution then.

Just a problem with all constitutions in general. Did he even have to look at the US constitution to make this "discovery" about it?

[–]alraban 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Technically it's only a problem in Constitutions that provide for an amendment process, which is AFAIK all existing ones. One could create a theoretical constitution that lacked that particular flaw (but which would obviously have other flaws due to it's inability to be altered).

[–]Somefive [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You know, many nations have entrenched clauses, which make it a lot more difficult to the constitution to be amended.

Where Godel was coming from, Germany has several [eternity clauses](eternity clause, which are irrevocable.

Sure, there's an amendment process, but you can still have eternity clauses.

[–]EarlOfNorfolk 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/us/inside-the-conservative-push-for-states-to-amend-the-constitution.html

This growing movement is relative to this discussion. I'm not trying to argue that their inent is to destroy the republic but I do feel like a Pandora's box is being opened here.

[–]Resipiscence 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is why, for all the varied reasons it might be a good idea to have a constitutional convention, it is a terrible idea and we should never ever have one.

Once you crack open the OS of the nation, anything goes, and anything that makes it easier to alter our operating system snowballs until whatever you have left isn't what we today would regard as the US.

[–]Level3Kobold 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know right, when the Supreme Court gave themselves the power to nullify laws it broke the entire US government. We've never recovered.

And when slavery was abolished, completely overturning the 3/5ths compromise, it basically spelt the end of democracy.

[–]spankymuffin [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

It's not so much a flaw in the Constitution, but a flaw in the very premise of a democracy:

What if the people want a dictator?

[–]anonuisance 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (23子コメント)

What inconsistency?

[–]assignpseudonym 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (21子コメント)

TL;DR: Article V - the amendment process, lends itself to dictatorship, due to a loophole in the amendment process itself.

Source information:
You can try to look at F.E. Guerra-Pujol's paper "Gödel’s Loophole" - here's the abstract:

"The mathematician and philosopher Kurt Gödel reportedly discovered a deep logical contradiction in the US Constitution. What was it? In this paper, the author revisits the story of Gödel’s discovery and identifies one particular “design defect” in the Constitution that qualifies as a “Gödelian” design defect. In summary, Gödel’s loophole is that the amendment procedures set forth in Article V self-apply to the constitutional statements in article V themselves, including the entrenchment clauses in article V. Furthermore, not only may Article V itself be amended, but it may also be amended in a downward direction (i.e., through an “anti-entrenchment” amendment making it easier to amend the Constitution). Lastly, the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable. In addition, the author identifies some “non-Gödelian” flaws or “design defects” in the Constitution and explains why most of these miscellaneous design defects are non-Gödelian or non-logical flaws."

Longer Answer:
The Godel “loophole” must clearly deal with Article V — the amendment process.

But it is most fascinating when applied to the “Senate problem.” Otherwise, it is trivial. If you’re going to permit an amendment process, then of course given sufficiently many people to vote your way, you could get a dictator. But that’s obvious. The alternative — no means of amending the Constitution at all — would’ve made it too inflexible.

Here is the “Senate problem,” and this is where it really gets interesting. If you read Article V it permits you to come up with any amendment at all, no matter how silly or extreme, IF you can get 2/3 of each house of Congress and 3/4 of states to approve… but there are two exceptions:

One exception is that the slave trade could not be touched until 1808. This is in heavily disguised language, and it is shameful once you understand it. But the limitation automatically went away in 1820.Under no circumstances (meaning no law and no amendment) can anything ever take away a state’s equal vote in the Senate “without that state’s consent.”

In practical terms, here’s what that means: Suppose you want to make the Senate fairer, so you propose to give bigger states 1 senator more and smaller states 1 senator less. According to Article V, you’d need not 3/4 of the states to ratify but 100% of them to ratify. Which I think it’s safe to say you’d never get.

Okay, but here is where it gets weird….

Article V says that given 3/4 of states to ratify you can do anything except change the Senate. But Article V doesn’t say you can’t modify Article V itself.

So if a strong majority of the people wanted to change the Senate, it stands to reason they’d just pass two amendments, in this chronological order:
1) amend Article V itself with only 3/4 of states ratifying it, and
2) then change the Senate with only 3/4 states’ approval, because you’ve “amended away” the restriction on amending the Senate!

Viola! You no longer need 100% approval of the states to change the make up of the US. Senate but only 3/4.

And it gets worse. Some constitutional scholars would say that this procedure would observe the letter of the law, so it would be valid. But others might argue that this end run around Article V was so directly contrary to the spirit of the document, it would not be valid.

Now here’s the really big problem: Who gets to decide?

The Supreme Court? But the Court has never been considered to have the power to say what words are actually in the Constitution… It can interpret the Constitution, but history has shown that the one process that trumps the Court is the amendment process, as it then changes what the Court has to follow. For example, in the Dred Scott decision, the Court thought it had settled racial issues once and for all. But the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments, passed at the end of the Civil War, contradicted every word of the Dred Scott decision and thereby erased every trace of it.

So an attempt to amend Article V itself might bring on a genuine Constitutional crisis. It is not even clear the Supreme Court could settle it. Which is one reason I think even people who see the unfairness of the Senate (two senators per state, no matter how large or small) don’t want to go there.

I have no doubt that Godel would’ve seen the self-referential nature of amending Article V (which describes how you can use the Constitution to amend the Constitution) to be a devilish problem.

The most obvious thing to me is the amendment process. You could theoretically pass an amendment abolishing the Bill of Rights, suspending democratic elections, and extending the term of the current President indefinitely. Such an amendment would be perfectly legal and constitutional assuming it passed both houses of Congress and was ratified by at least 3/4 of the states. However somehow I doubt that's what he meant.

To be honest, I don't think the "inconsistency" Godel claims to have found actually exists. I think he was most likely misinterpreting something in the Constitution (perhaps the General Welfare clause) to mean something totally different than how it's traditionally defined. That or he was referring to some sort of Orwellian government propaganda machine that whips the American people up into a frenzy and convinces them to grant the government absolute power. Given that Godel was originally from Austria and actually witnessed the Nazi takeover of his country first-hand, this seems likely as well.

Edit: added TL;DR and formatting.

[–]RunDNA6 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (13子コメント)

That answer really impressed me until a quick google search showed that it was cut and pasted from several answers over at Quora:

https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-flaw-Kurt-G%C3%B6del-discovered-in-the-US-constitution-that-would-allow-conversion-to-a-dictatorship

It's fascinating stuff, but you could at least give some attribution at the end of your comment.

[–]sunflowercompass [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In the 90s, people attributed things. Or at least phrased it like this: "I did some searching and it appears that ..." More and more people get lazy and no longer do this. I have been guilty of it myself.

[–]RobotSkeleton 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Bitch, this ain't a term paper.

[–]Bardfinn32 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Correct. This is /r/todayilearned.

In this subreddit, you'll notice a bunch of people with numbers next to their names.

Those numbers indicate the number of times they have, formally on record, brought to the attention of the moderators, submissions that were false, misleading, unverifiable, or which otherwise broke the subreddit rules.

I'm going to venture that none of them have ever done so through any plausible configuration of the token "Bitch, this ain't a term paper.".

[–]busdriverbuddha1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Brazilian Constitution has a similar problem. It has what we call the Stone Clauses (cláusulas pétreas) which cannot be amended without scrapping the entire Constitution and writing a new one. They relate to the federative organization of the country, the fundamental rights, and direct elections, if I'm not mistaken.

However, the article that determines which clauses are protected is not itself protected. So we could in theory pass an amendment to repeal that clause, and everything else falls apart.

I doubt our Supreme Court would allow that to happen, of course, but the possibility exists.

[–]ElagabalusRex1 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It doesn't take a genius to know that democracies can never be made invincible. I'm not sure why people are impressed by this particular fact (besides the irony that Kurt Gödel found an inconsistency).

[–]jcooli09 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I went looking for the actual inconsistency and found that there isn't even good evidence that this ever happened. The best evidence I saw was that his friend's widow said she heard the story.

[–]Badloss [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

hey so maybe this isn't the best time for this TIL

[–]frozen_yogurt_killer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Was he supposed to say "no, I don't think a dictatorship in the USA could happen"?

[–]TheCenterOfEnnui [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It would be easier for a military coup to occur than for this to happen.

[–]loloflamingo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

DAMMIT WHY DID YOU POST THIS! HE'S GOING TO FIND OUT!