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Analysis/TheoryThe recent rape drama with /r/anarchism and leftwithsharpedge exposes the hypocrisy of the fringe. (self.LeftWithoutEdge)

ravencrowed が 投稿

tl:dr: an edgelord on LWSE was banned from both subs for saying they would rape a rapist.

They seem to have this dual system in their mind, where they must go as extreme as possible along a line and that's where the truest anarchism lies. anyone further to the left in their line is simply a liberal or guilty of the fallacy of the middle.

For me though, its not about being in the middle, it's about saying "I ain't playing your game at all"

The framework in their minds is that if you are an oppressor, then no form of punishment is too much for you. These people regularly advocate and preach for violence, torture, maimings, etc on anyone they perceive to be against them, which inevitably includes other anarchists who are disgusted by their tactics.

However we found out that there is one thing that crosses the line and that's rape. Rape is an aggressive action that physically and mentally traumatises it's victims.

But so is torture. so is maiming, so is pre-emptively hunting down people to bash their heads in.

it's sheer hypocrisy.

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[–]weyve 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I didn't see that but I'm sorry you had to. That really bothers me, too.

When I see people spreading slogans like "kill your local rapist", I don't think "wow! they're on my side and want to defend me!" I think, "huh, looks like they're taking any impetus for political and cultural change... and channeling it into an impotent performance of rage".

No one ever deserves rape. You can't rape in self-defense. You can't rape to exact justice.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"huh, looks like they're taking any impetus for political and cultural change... and channeling it into an impotent performance of rage".

That's the extent of it. They're co-opting other people's suffering to try to given another excuse for directionless rage against nothing in particular. It's definitely not admirable, to put it far more kindly than I probably should.

[–]weyve 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And to advocate not just harming a rapist, but specifically raping them? I don't want to be within 10 metres of someone who believes there's such a thing as righteous rape.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fucking agreed. The entire idea is disgusting, without a doubt.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Reminds me of the long-standing policy in /r/anarchism (now changed I think?) that suicide goading was 100% acceptable, even in graphic detail to people with depression etc, but call someone an "idiot" and you'd literally get threads made about how that was ableist.

[–]RvannithLeft-wing Market Anarchist / muh critical theory 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, suicide goading was banned, I think just before they eventually banned you. So now they just say they hope people get violently assaulted etc.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[M] 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Note: this thread is being brigaded by LeftWithSharpEdge, please disregard any weird voting numbers. They are currently calling us "smug" for disapproving of rape and torture threats.

[–]burtzev 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Smug as a bug in a rug said the mug of a thug who got no hug when they dug with their pug for a jug.

Actually it's a good thing to be smug about.

[–]OrsoniusTranshumanist Anarchist 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

people advocating punishment are dumb anyways.

Especially harsh punishment.

They know nothing about behavioral analysis, or conditioning.

Fuck those people.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Skinner speaks pretty frequently on the pitfalls of punishment and also to why it's so prevalent as a societal ways of enforcing obedience. It's a shame more people aren't familiar with it.

[–]OrsoniusTranshumanist Anarchist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yeah Skinner got really unpopular after the 70s.

I read this book on behaviorism and honestly it made incredible sense to me. It also taught me how much nonsense people talk about Skinner and what he actually believed. Lots of disinformation.

His ideas are to this day incredibly "radical" though. I mean "beyond freedom and dignity" sounds quite provocative, but he uses the terms in a very specific way which go beyond the rather blurry ideas people have of them.

I am honestly a bit surprised other anarchists apparently like his work. He was pretty much not an anarchist, as he believed in control. I still value his work, regardless of my own ideas.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah, Skinner's ideas are still very misunderstood by many people. In particular, Skinner and Watson's ideas are often incredibly mixed up. If you're interested in other behavioral philosophies, I'd recommend J. R. Kantor's interbehaviorism, the non-linear analysis of Golddiamond, and potentially some of the stuff from functional contextualism.

Yeah, I am a rare one in that regard, though I do not believe the ideas are contrary and I have met a few other behaviorists who also endorsed anarchism. It just doesn't work the other way.

Skinner was laying out a philosophy of science for how the world worked, and in particular, a naturalistic science regarding the behavior of organisms. When Skinner frequently talks about control and punishment, he notes that naturally occurring contingencies are there in the environment. That's simply part of nature.

The question then is how can a society seek to build a more just society where the contingencies are based upon reinforcement rather than aversive control. People are free when the contingencies they face are primarily positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement and positive or negative punishment. I think such a society could be built without the need of leaders or hierarchies.

[–]OrsoniusTranshumanist Anarchist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I will check out the work you mentioned.

Also I see you are actually quite deep into this given your vocabulary.

I actually had some fights with people like LSR (libertarian socialist rant) for my defense on skinner and applied conditioning in society.

One of my favorite ideas of him was basically something along the line of "People are afraid of control, yet we already control each other, if we want it or not. All our actions reinforced specific reactions, and right now, we don't apply it to reach a certain goal, but just have it chaotically assemble. It's not the question if we want control or not, it's if we want good control or bad one. People at the moment choose bad control, because they assume the illusion of freedom."

I am by all means an advocate of social engineering. I think our entire societies around the globe do a poor job in shaping people to be good. We hold onto this false believe of what freedom is supposed to be, just so in the next moment to apply punishment to create averse contingencies through punishment.

I think anarchism goes to some degree hand in hand with behaviorism, because the end goal of a socially engineered society on the principle of positive reinforcement would remove a lot of the strong authoritarian methods we use today (punishment for victimless crimes, or crimes people do out of necessity or because they are outcasts).

When I see the people in sharp edge I just shake my head at how incredibly useless their ideas and methods are in achieving a commendable society. They are no better than what we have now, regardless how they call themselves.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, I studied behavior analysis for years and continue to read behavior analytic literature, though I'm now in a different but I would argue related field.

I think anarchism goes to some degree hand in hand with behaviorism, because the end goal of a socially engineered society on the principle of positive reinforcement would remove a lot of the strong authoritarian methods we use today (punishment for victimless crimes, or crimes people do out of necessity or because they are outcasts).

This is spot on and is the reasoning myself and other anarchist behavior analysts have come to. The logical extension of a society that organizes around principles of positive reinforcement is anarchism, I believe. It's just a matter of spreading information to people on both topics, both of which are very misunderstood.

As far as the people in sharp edge, I think this recent drama speaks to exactly what a community like that will inevitably produce. I don't think, however, their goal is a commendable society. I think they're angry and lashing out at the perceived cause of the anger... An effect of facing too many punishing contingencies. That said, it does not excuse the community that they've created. That's on them.

[–]OrsoniusTranshumanist Anarchist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think they're angry and lashing out at the perceived cause of the anger... An effect of facing too many punishing contingencies.

Pretty much. I remember Skinner talking about how one of the side effects of punishment is avoidant behavior, or aggression.

Reddit sadly loves to circle jerk over violence, especially violence towards people they think "deserve" it.

No one thinks of people as victims anymore, unless they did absolutely nothing. It seems like people have trouble seeing some people, which they think deserve "punishment" as nothing but victims of whatever circumstances they grew up under.

And in respect to the edgy anarchists and other left people on reddit or elsewhere, its especially apparent.

I've seen you are a mod on TiA related subreddits. I think when I watch guys like LSR on youtube and he complains about other youtubers who might or might not be right wingers, he seems to fail to see that the recent societal developments, either perceived or objectively true, created a climate in which reactionaries (justified or not) sprout.

So now you have two extremes fighting and fueling each other, and no one seems to try to just be calm and figure out methods to reduce perceived issues.

The edgy anarchists, with their tar and feathering seem to not apply useful methods to promote anarchism or any other form of progressive agenda, and the reactionaries seem to fail to see nuanced perspectives in far left ideas.

I mean, you call yourself here anarcho communists and a vegan, meaning you instantly pay a price just because of peoples biases and perceptions, regardless how sound you may be.

It's incredibly frustrating because it seems everyone is just too unwilling to engage with ideas which are seen taboo on either side. Which ultimately leads to these hypocritical moments we see now.

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Interestingly, it was bad faith on the part of some members of the Left that caused me to initially get involved with the TiA-sphere. I eventually fell away for a variety of reasons, but that was where my initial involvement started.

I think you hit on a key point: people are forgetting the human, particularly the individual human. People want so badly to rally against injustice, that they forget injustice exists as a systematic issue that we're all trapped under.

Empathy goes a long ways when it comes to having these discussions. Unfortunately in our current environment, it seems to be in short supply.

[–]OrsoniusTranshumanist Anarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Internet has very poor features to promote empathy. Anonymity and the vicarious nature of conversations lead to a climate of easy dismissal. In real life you pay immediate prices when you act a certain way, while online you don't.

Also misunderstand and intention guessing isn't so much an issue in real life either.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, Keynes was a bourgeois elitist through and through but his ideas on how to operate the capitalist machinery via the State were dead on. Ideas have merit independent of who proposes them.

[–]_throawayplop_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was funny to read the drama. The comment was disgusting but not more than one can usually read on lwse

[–]fuckchildrapists 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was the one who posted the original thread. Here is what I posted in r/drama about it

Also a few notes: The rape story is true. I was raped and I know for certain that my friend was too, don't know if there were any other victims.

I don't agree with what I wrote. I'm a pacifist and r/leftwithsharpedge annoys me so I posted that to see what their response would be.

I would like to add that I'm truly sorry for anyone who might have been distressed/hurt from reading about this.