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Circumcision is Child Abuse and Torture (returntonow.net)

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[–]dalkon 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm probably the most active intactivist on reddit, and I agree with the sentiment, but damn that site is awful. If I were only learning about this now, I doubt I would have believed it based on that page.

Here's a much better presentation a doctor made that you don't even have to read:
Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital (also available at vimeo.com)

To summarize the issue, the foreskin is a functional and rewarding feeling part of the body. It's not a birth defect though that misconception is popular in circumcising cultures like the US and Islam (most of the world doesn't do it). It's not just skin. It contains many highly sensitive fine touch nerve endings giving it high resolution sensitivity like a fingertip (Taylor, 1996; Meislahn & Taylor, 2004; Podnar, 2012; Cold & McGrath, 1999; Bronselaer, 2013). Sorrells (2007) determined the foreskin was the most sensitive part of the penis. Quoting Van Howe (2013):

Anatomically, the foreskin is highly erogenous, pentalaminar, specialized, junctional (transitional) tissue. Other transitional tissues in the body include the lips and eyelids. These transitional tissues all have a high concentration of fine-touch neuroreceptors at the junction of internal (mucosal) surfaces with external (epidermal) surfaces. In the 19th century, physicians, recognizing that the foreskin was the most sensitive portion of the penis, recommended its removal as a "cure" for masturbation. Only recently was the ridged band of the prepuce, which is completely removed by circumcision, identified as containing nearly all of the penis's fine-touch neuroreceptors.

Some famous men who were circumcised and considered the surgery mutilation include comedian Scott Thompson (from Kids in the Hall); celebrated cryptanalyst Alan Turing; influential economist John Maynard Keynes and brother Geoffrey Keynes; deconstructionist (philosopher) Jacques Derrida; poets W. H. Auden and A. E. Housman; and contemporary journalists Andrew Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens (Darby, 2005; Young, 2016).

If this topic interests you, you might like /r/intactivists.

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Holy friggin shit, thank you.

[–]aPseudonymPho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the record, a lot of what you would've heard from me would have been items that I'd catalogued away over the years from Dalkon here. On that end I'm glad he popped into this thread to deliver those items despite your resistance to chat with me.

If you're so inclined I'd highly recommend chatting with him yourself, or perhaps perusing his comment history. You'll likely find quite a few items there of interest.

[–]TheRealMouseRat 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

They should just make a law that states that the child needs to be able to choose this themselves. At least make it a 16 year old lower limit on it. (or 18)

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Like any other cosmetic surgery.

[–]TheRealMouseRat 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

yea it should be treated similarly.

[–]Mentioned_Videos 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Videos in this thread:

Watch Playlist ▶

VIDEO COMMENT
(1) [NSFW] What is the Structure & Function of The Foreskin? (Circumcision) (2) Circumcision: The Whole Story (3) Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital (4) A Historical and Medical Critique of Circumcision - Dr. Christopher Guest (5) Circumcision: At the intersection of Religion, Medicine, and Human Rights - John Geisheker 2 - What is the Structure & Function of The Foreskin? (Circumcision) - 19:20 Circumcision: The Whole Story - 19:44 Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital - 33:33 A Historical and Medical Critique of Circumcision - Dr. Christopher Guest - 1:24...
Child Circumcision: an Elephant in the Hospital 1 - I'm probably the most active intactivist on reddit, and I agree with the sentiment, but damn that site is awful. If I were only learning about this now, I doubt I would have believed it based on that page. Here's a much better presentation a doctor ...

I'm a bot working hard to help Redditors find related videos to watch. I'll keep this updated as long as I can.

Play All | Info | Get me on Chrome / Firefox

[–]synackSA 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (62子コメント)

I don't get this. I'm circumcised and I hold nothing against my parents for doing it either.

[–]SteelCrossx 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Many Chinese women felt the same way about their foot binding. They believed it to be beautiful and were proud. Not drawing an equivalency, just saying that retrospectively liking something doesn't in itself justify the choice.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Same thing for female genital mutilation.

[–]_Aggort 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (40子コメント)

He's not saying he liked it, he's saying he had no feelings either way and I'm willing to bet most people don't.

[–]aPseudonymPho 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (15子コメント)

This is true, but circumcision is a topic that is very taboo to talk about. Conversations are actively stifled, and become intensely personal because it impacts a private part of men's bodies that they tend to care a lot about. When you combine this with the fact that many men know absolutely nothing about circumcision (with many not even knowing that they themselves are circumcised) and it becomes something else entirely. No longer is it "most men don't care", it's "most men are completely ignorant to what it represents, it's history, the impact it's had on their sexual health, and have never been exposed to any of that information at any point in their life".

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It took me 27 years to realize what happened to me.

And I've been on the internet since AOL 3.0 constantly searching the internet.

[–]aPseudonymPho 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which, in my opinion is a huge problem, and a very very significant factor behind why it continues at all. No one tells us what was done to us, or why, or even what the benefits are supposed to be. It's brushed under the rug and never spoken of again.

I'm very far along the process of restoring my foreskin. If you didn't know I restored and saw me naked, you would assume I'm intact (my best friend whom is intact himself has said he could not tell the difference). Everything I thought I knew about how sex was supposed to feel has been completely redefined and turned on its head since getting to the point I am now. I am certain now, since having felt the difference for myself that the fact that most men never will (feel the difference) is the sole reason they're okay with it.

[–]_Aggort 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Could you please, genuinely explain this to me?

If I'm downvoted, I'm out, because I really would like to understand this.

What do you mean you just realized what happened to you?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That a functional part of my penis was stolen from me at birth.

Watch these videos: https://www.reddit.com/r/OneY/comments/5i3sud/circumcision_is_child_abuse_and_torture/db55yin/

Especially Elephant in the Hospital.

[–]_Aggort 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seen those.

To put it simply, you feel violated?

[–]_Aggort -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Sorry I just don't understand it. I've never spoken with any guy that has ever thought this was a big deal. I know most agree that our shouldn't be done at birth, but don't see anything wrong with they themselves being circumcised.

[–]aPseudonymPho 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Which is perfectly fine and common. Considering you likely spent your entirely life being fed information and cultural opinion which is 100% counter to the notion of anti-circumcision rhetoric, that's what we would expect isn't it?

Consider a devout catholic whom has lived their entire life in a seriously faith driven catholic community. Do you expect that they would be open to ideas of atheism, religious corruption, religious intolerance and bigotry? Probably not, because that's not how people tend to operate.

If you'd like to understand, I can probably help you. That doesn't mean I can make you care (nor would I try) but usually it's as simple as outlining the full picture I can almost guarantee you've never seen or considered beyond these past 15, 20 minutes before. Just like the from birth catholic, you're a from birth circumcision participant. That's not to say you actively like it, or push it, but you're a member of a cultural machine which thrives on ignorance (like the vast majority of such cultural rituals). If you want to understand it, then you need to learn about it fully from all perspectives, medical, socio-cultural, religious, historical, psychological, etc. Its actually a very complex, multi-faceted and nuanced phenomenon, not unlike many other mutilation traditions of various nations.

Edit: I should also add to clarify, that there is nothing wrong per se with being circumcised. Just like there isn't anything wrong with being an amputee, or undergoing chemotherapy. The circumcision debate revolves around when circumcision is performed, on whom, what it's outcomes and risks are, and why. It is from answering those questions that you begin to reach conclusions about the medical, ethical, religious, and cultural validity of this ritual. That's why it's important to distinguish between religious / cultural circumcision, medical circumcision, adult circumcision, and infant / child circumcision. They all have different contexts and different answers to those previous questions.

[–]_Aggort 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's some points here I'd like to address however it's going to require more concentration than I can allot at work. I'd like to respond once I get home

[–]aPseudonymPho 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No problem. Life has priorities.

I can't guarantee I'll be around to respond right away, but I'll get back to your questions eventually. While you're away I'll ask that you consider the following, since it'll help me get a better idea of your personal opinions and situation. That will ultimately save me a lot of time avoiding discussing topics you already know or that are irrelevant.

  • When you say you don't understand, can you clarify what you mean? Do you mean you don't understand the outrage? That's what I've assumed thus far so just to be sure.
  • What have you read or heard about circumcision, both good and bad. Where did you hear these things? Your family doctor, friends, random folks on the internet (probably quite a bit of this last one). Have you read any articles / academic literature? If so can you find links or specific passages you found moving or significant? If not it's okay it'll just smooth things out, but I know that's time consuming.
  • Id invite out to start thinking about a worst case scenario. What would make you "understand", or "care"? Can you draw comparisons for me to give me an idea?
  • I presume you yourself are circumcised. If so, how old were you, and any special reasons or was it a RIC (routine infant circ)?
  • Are you familiar with intact penile anatomy? I ask so I know how much technical jargon to use or avoid.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please do.

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I told you I'd respond and I feel obligated to do so. However, the hostility and lack of understanding for those that are more misinformed on this subject, in this thread, have completely turned me against wanting to continue discussing it here. Thanks for your input, I'd just say in the future I wouldn't imply that someone must be misinformed if they don't see the big picture. I have understood that this is an issue for about three years and have researched it in the past.

[–]aPseudonymPho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I told you I'd respond and I feel obligated to do so.

No need, I understand people change their minds.

I'd just say in the future I wouldn't imply that someone must be misinformed if they don't see the big picture. I have understood that this is an issue for about three years and have researched it in the past.

While I understand your feelings here, this was not my implication. You explicitly said that you did not understand, which suggests a lack of complete knowledge on a topic no? Especially when you'd provided no other clarification. I didn't say that you were misinformed, in fact what I'd written verbatim was,

"... but usually it's as simple as outlining the full picture I can almost guarantee you've never seen or considered beyond these past 15, 20 minutes before.

Emphasis of course mine. I thought it was clear in my saying this that when discussing this issue, when people come out and say they don't understand something, it's often from incomplete or inaccurate information (and thus this was my assumption). I later gave you the opportunity to set me straight by asking you to clarify what it was you didn't understand. In doing so I explicitly acknowledge that perhaps I was a bit presumptuous in thinking you don't understand everything there is to know about the topic, but instead are curious about some other aspect. I had hoped you would let me know so I could address those curiosities.

"When you say you don't understand, can you clarify what you mean? Do you mean you don't understand the outrage? That's what I've assumed thus far so just to be sure."

Again, considering you hadn't provided any examples of what exactly it was you didn't understand, I thought it was pretty reasonable to make a leap to a very common circumstance for the sake of getting a discussion going.

At any rate, I do appreciate your time. Perhaps some day you might be more open to a discussion, and hopefully won't have been pummelled into repulsion by those whom haven't yet had a chance to come to grips with their feelings on the matter and how that influences the conversations they then subsequently have about it.

Cheers

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I appreciate your responses and had more of them here been like yours I'd be much more open to discussion.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While you're at it, join Bloodstained Men & Their Friends :D!

A group dedicated to fighting it.

Look up foreskin restoration. Many men are trying to get back some functionality.

Also, look up Foregen. /r/Foregen

[–]teslas_notepad 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't hold it against my parents but I don't agree with the decision and wish they hadn't done it.

[–]_Aggort 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not likely that had a decision, but can I ask why you wish that they hadn't?

[–]teslas_notepad 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They had a decision because they could have asked to not have it done. I don't agree with it because it was pointless

[–]_Aggort -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, that could have, but you know an overwhelming majority aren't aware they have a choice at all. And if you simply wish they hadn't because it was pointless it seems rather different than those that are stating that this violated them.

I mean no offense by this, however I have a feeling I'll probably upset you, so I'm sorry. However, reasonings such as it being pointless is why I can't seem to take one's upset about their own circumcision seriously. I can understand fighting to spread the information that it's not necessary, I just can't grasp that it is that bothersome for most men that have already had it done.

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

of course they had a choice, what are you talking about ?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (18子コメント)

There are plenty of men who are pissed at being mutilated at birth.

[–]_Aggort 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (17子コメント)

I'm sure. But there's plenty, like me, that don't see a difference.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Female genital mutilation victims see no difference.

Many victims justify their abuse.

[–]_Aggort 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's what I'm getting at, no one I have ever discussed this with has felt abused

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Having a healthy, functional body part removed is insane.

It's not intentional abuse. It's just misinformed normalized mutilation.

[–]_Aggort 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree, and so do most guys. But because it's misinformation, these same men don't blame their loved ones.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't blame people that didn't know, and who were hoodwinked by authority.

I do blame those that when confronted with the truth, will not listen, and those that perpetuate the cycle upon their children.

[–]jordanlund 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

There is absolutely a huge difference between FGM and circumcision.

If you don't know this then you have no idea what each of those entail.

[–]LongUsername 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

So yes, by definition there is no difference between some FGM and circumcision. Leaving the clitoris and just removing the cliteral hood is FGM and analgous to removal of the foreskin. Even using a pin to make a ceremonial prick is considered FGM by many.

According to the World Health Organization, you're the one who has no idea what each of those entail.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Not really, they're done on homologous organs for similar reasons.

https://aeon.co/essays/are-male-and-female-circumcision-morally-equivalent

[–]jordanlund 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not really... FGM is literally the removal of the clitoris. Or did you not actually research that before you starting making these insane posts?

There is no homolog between the foreskin and the entire clitoris.

[–]Terraneaux 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, technically there would be... that would be clitoral hood. In any case, they're only dissimilar if you think that boys don't have a right to bodily integrity but girls do.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Did you know there's more than one form of FGM? Betcha didn't.

Get to googling.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Take a look at the links I posted.

If you're happy, that's fine.

Many men are angry that their penis was mutilated at birth, and are suffering complications from it.

[–]Articulationized -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Many? I have never met any men who felt this way. None.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Hi. I was mutilated at birth and hate it.

Bloodstained Men & Their Friends

[–]Articulationized -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Okay. I haven't met you met you, but you are a data point.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If this doesn't count, how many people have you actually asked?

I'm going to assume 0.

[–]Articulationized 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Eleven.

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

weak trolling man

[–]Articulationized 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm being completely honest.

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

that's hard for me to believe so i probably wont

[–]mamaemily91 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The leader of this group, 'brother k' has been found to ask women on facebook for nude pics of their little boys. He also pretends to have a wife but she has never been seen at a protest. And it's awesome that you hate it, you are an obnoxious twerp and deserve any ill that befalls you. ;)

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nice try :)

[–]mamaemily91 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Makes me happy to know you are upset. Bitching on here won't bring back your foreskin either, hope you die of aids faggot. ;)

[–]user_of_the_week 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a big claim.

[–]viktorbir 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Same with most circumcised women in history.

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

it gets complicated when your guardians are responsible for the abuse :/

[–]factsnotfeelings 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here's something to think about.

[Circumcised men more](www.sfgate.com/news/article/Study-Finds-Circumcised-Men-More-Sexually-2846517.php)

MGM has no justification

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I attribute that to trauma and not getting the full sexual experience.

Searching for that high, that itch they can't scratch.

[–]Neverlife 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (34子コメント)

Dang, there's a lot of craziness going on in here.

Circumcision being compared to foot binding? That's kinda ridiculous is you ask me. I agree that circumcision should become less popular, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm circumsized and I've never had an issue with it, and I don't want to hear people saying "it's because you've been brainwashing", because that's some tin-foil hat nonsense.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (33子コメント)

Yes, it's a sick cultural practice.

It's all you've ever known.

You're lucky you don't have issue.

A lot of men do.

[–]Neverlife 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Meh, it's not really sick. I'm not lucky, not having issue is typical. I don't believe that a lot of men do.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (22子コメント)

http://circumcisionharm.org/gallery1.htm

[–]Neverlife 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (21子コメント)

How about some actual science? You know, something published, peer reviewed. That looks like nonsense to me.

[–]double-happiness 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17475991

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16291369 [on topical steroids as an alternative to circumcision]

I have much more on why circumcision isn't a good way to prevent STDs, can post if you wish.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Look at the actual damage.

But, if you're that dense, here:

http://www.cirp.org/library/

Have fun.

[–]Neverlife 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Oh the irony of calling someone dense when you don't even understand how to properly support a point.

That site just collected a bunch of stuff that it agreed with and nothing to the contrary. It's a shitty source.

Do you have any proper science to back your point?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (17子コメント)

No, it's not a shitty source. The pages have citations at the bottom.

You didn't even begin to look at it.

[–]Neverlife 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Citations don't mean a non-shitty source.

It's just an echo chamber of "circumcision is bad' without talking about and discussing the merits and opposing thoughts. It's a shitty source.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (15子コメント)

No, it's not. You haven't even read anything and tried to refute it.

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

These types of comments. This level of outrage and lack of understanding for people who are on the other side of this. The sheer hostility. That's why I have an incredibly hard time taking you seriously.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I don't care if you don't take me seriously. Those who want to listen and learn, will.

[–]_Aggort -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

No one is going to listen if your rhetoric is to attack someone else and to be forceful. If this is something that little understand and need to be taught, that's certainly not the way to do it.

I'm someone you had genuinely interested and wanted to learn more about this cause, however, now I see you on one extreme and one extreme only and I now I don't want to listen and feel I cannot learn from you.

A good chunk of the links you'd already sent me I've seen before, I intend to look more into this on my own, but as it stands, nothing here has changed my opinion.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Please, research.

www.cirp.org/library/ is a good place.

[–]_Aggort -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

As I have stated, you've lost me. Any research I do will be my own henceforth. Attacking others and hostility is not a way to get a message across.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Suit yourself. Your feelings, not mine.

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you don't see the irony in forcing your point of view onto someone then you're as much of a lost cause as I am.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not forcing a viewpoint on anyone.

The people who carve up babies are the ones who are forcing it.

Aren't you supposed to be researching and not listening to me?

[–]Diariocruz 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Adding my two cents

I am not circumcised, I have three sons, two are not circumcised and one is. The one that did get cut was for medical reasons. There's benefits and drawbacks to both. I don't consider either choice abuse. Real abuse has no benefits, don't diminish the word.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (29子コメント)

What medical reason?

There are no benefits to cutting a HEALTHY child.

[–]a1blank 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (24子コメント)

medical reasons

Sounds like the kid wasn't healthy.

[–]DuckHorseDuck 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Possibly, but misdiagnosis of foreskin problems is a real problem in America. Most of the doctors are circumcised and the only thing they are taught about foreskin in med school is how to cut it off.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Which is why I asked for a medical reason.

[–]jordanlund 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (21子コメント)

You aren't owed a reason. Take your tin-foil hattery somewhere else.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Then don't mention it if you're not willing to discuss it.

[–]Articulationized -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Pressuring a man to discuss his son's medical issues is arguably more abusive than circumcision.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

You've got to be fucking kidding.

Asking someone to give a valid reason for cutting is more abusive than removing healthy flesh from an infant?

Get the fuck out of here.

[–]Kitbixby 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'll give you one--my cousin had a "mangled" foreskin and would have made the risk of infection much greater, so he doesn't have a foreskin. Circumcision isn't a bad thing

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

How was it "mangled"?

If it was "mangled" that's not healthy, functional genital tissue.

This is about routine infant circumcision.

[–]Articulationized 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

You didn't ask him to give a valid reason for cutting. You rebuked a father for not discussing what his child's doctor told him.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why mention it, and benefits, if they weren't willing to discuss and just shutdown?

[–]Kitbixby 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

There is nothing arguable about it. Harassing someone is definitely worse

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Than harvesting healthy flesh from an infant?

[–]Kitbixby -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not "harvesting" what do you think they do with it--makes hats for homeless people?

[–]michaelscerealshop -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are but you seem stubborn as hell. May I ask, what is your profession?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are no benefits to cutting a healthy child. Much like it's not a benefit to cut off a baby girls breast buds to prevent breast cancer in the future.

My profession? Teaching ;)

[–]guyincognitoo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel sorry for your students.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't be so hard on yourself.

[–]notmyviews 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (30子コメント)

I'm circumcised, and I honestly think you people who are talking about this like it's the same thing as FGM are out of your fucking minds.

I honestly couldn't care less. Aesthetically, I think circumcision looks better, seems cleaner, and is even recommended by the CDC.

Comparisons to Chinese foot binding and other things like that are crazy. Guys who are convincing themselves that this is in any way simimlar: c'mon, man. This is about as "mutilative" as parents who pierce their kids ears.

[–]viktorbir 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you people who are talking about this like it's the same thing as FGM are out of your fucking minds.

Sorry? you know just making any kind of cut on a girl genitalia is illegal in most of the world, but cutting a working part of a boy genitalia is legal, don't you?

[–]Yebi 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Where do you actually see that?

I swear, every single one of these threads are full of people saying "those who think male circumcision is exactly like FGM are dumb," but there's never anyone who actually expresses that opinion. You see some comparisons between the two, all of them prefaced with the caveat "I know they're not the same" and that's about it.

[–]blackberrydoughnuts 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are multiple types of FGM. Type 1 of FGM is exactly the same as circumcision. Types 2 and 3 are more mutilating.

[–]aPseudonymPho 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Types 1 and 4 actually. Type 4 is a catch all for any ritual genital cutting including minor pinpricking and blood letting rituals (which are among the most common forms of female genital cutting). These are definitely less harmful. There are arguments to be made that Type 2 is similar to or on par with a typical American male genital cutting procedure, but generally people become too emotional to actually objectively and critically evaluate the evidence that supports that argument. Thus it's usually simpler to just omit it to avoid losing people in blind emotional responses.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Congratulations, you've just sexualized an infant.

There's nothing cleaner about a cut dick.

No, it's not crazy. You're just CULTurally indoctrinated to see one as acceptable, and one as not.

Think about it....

You're cutting off a healthy , functional organ.

No.

Piercing ears to not irreparably damage an organ.

It does violate bodily autonomy like circumcision though.

[–]Neverlife 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I think you need to calm down mate.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I think you need to get angry about the mutilation of chlidren.

[–]Neverlife 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I think your dramatizing the situation.

[–]double-happiness 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think your dramatizing the situation.

http://news.nationalpost.com/health/ontario-newborn-bleeds-to-death-after-family-doctor-persuades-parents-to-get-him-circumcised?__lsa=f2b7-bce9

http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/male-circumcision-baby-goodluck

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/11/massive-infection-takes-over-body-after.html [NSFW/NSFL]

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/twn-news/the-dangers-of-plastibell-circumcisions-graphic [NSFW/NSFL]

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I think you're unaware of the damage that's done and the violations occurring.

[–]Neverlife 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think your dramatizing the situation still. Is this Reddit or Tumblr?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Do not disregard the harms of genital mutilation.

[–]Neverlife 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do not make a situation seem much more dire then it really is by throwing 'scary words' around.

There are minimal "harms", and calling it 'genital mutilation' seems quite extreme to me.

I think you're being ridiculous.

[–]numb3red 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

50% of the surface tissue is removed in circumcision. Over 100 babies die a year from circumcision complications, which trumps all other arguments imo. The adult foreskin is larger than an iPhone 4, and evidence suggests there's specialized nerve endings only present in the foreskin. Pricking a baby girl's genitals for a traditional ceremony is illegal, but scraping and cutting the foreskin off a conscious baby isn't. I didn't use inflammatory language either, they literally have to scrape it off; watch a video. The health improvements are virtually non-existent, and basic hygiene is the solution to any problems that a foreskin might cause. A cut penis looks cleaner because it's culturally ingrained. Women have a higher chance of getting a UTI than either cut or uncut men, and our solution is a simple treatment, not non-elective infant surgery. This is all off the top of my head, I can dig up a list of sources if you'd like.

Look up what Egyptian women think of FGM, they sound literally just like cut males in the US.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

http://circumcisionharm.org/gallery1.htm

Genital mutilation is what it is.

[–]Articulationized 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

He didn't mention sexuality AT ALL.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Aesthetically, I think circumcision looks better,

The topic is about cutting babies.

[–]Articulationized 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

He mentions aesthetics, you think sexualization. It seems like you have the problem here.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The penis is a sexual organ.

[–]Articulationized 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not on a baby, dude.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The penis is the reproductive organ....

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

did you ever think that the baby would survive and grow up to be a man with (gosh!) a sexuality ?

[–]potato1 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You accuse someone else of "sexualizing a baby" and then you say this?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's the reason.

Keep up now.

[–]potato1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It sounds like you need to take note of the plank in your eye before you talk crap about the specks in the eyes of others.

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jesus Christ with the upvotes these comments are getting I thought I was out of my own fucking mind. It wasn't quite an echo chamber since I wasn't being downvoted, but man it gets to be preachy.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is the Structure & Function of The Foreskin? (Circumcision) - 19:20

Circumcision: The Whole Story - 19:44

Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital - 33:33

A Historical and Medical Critique of Circumcision - Dr. Christopher Guest - 1:24:03

Circumcision: At the intersection of Religion, Medicine, and Human Rights - John Geisheker - 1:26:50

Changes in infants - Image

Claims of curing over time - Image

While you're at it, join Bloodstained Men & Their Friends :D!

[–]jordanlund 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (15子コメント)

"Though some claim the physical pain of circumcision is quickly forgotten, the emotional scars last a lifetime. Boys and men may not consciously remember the torture, but they remember it subconsciously, and can experience post-traumatic stress when faced with similar threatening situations later in life."

What's that word? Oh, yeah, "Bullshit".

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Changes in infants - Image

[–]jordanlund 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Physiological is not the same thing as emotional or psychological.

You need a basic reading comprehension class. I think that's the source of most of your trouble.

[–]double-happiness 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Behavioral and physiological changes it says.

[–]jordanlund 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Neither of which are emotional or psychological which is what I've called out as bullshit.

[–]double-happiness 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Behavioral changes aren't emotional or psychological? Surely they would be if they're aversive? For instance, if an infant has an early experience of intense pain in the genital region, do you not think that would be likely to make them more fearful of pain in that area?

[–]jordanlund 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, they aren't. Behavioral changes can be purely physical.

For example, you might have an issue with your foot that causes a limp. Even when the issue is healed, you still walk with a limp.

Saying that undergoing a circumcision as a child is going to have any sort of secret, subconscious emotional or psychological impact years later is complete and utter bullshit.

[–]double-happiness 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

secret

Ah well hang on, because it's only you that's using that word, that isn't stated in the quote you called 'bullshit'.

In the last two decades, a dozen studies have reported infant reactions to circumcision. All reveal stress, manifest in the tripling and quadrupling of normal cortisol levels in the bloodstream, changes in heart rate, the oxygen content of tissues, frequency of crying, disturbances of sleep, and inability of babies to calm themselves after being assaulted.

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/chamberlain/

Alterations in complex behavior and sleep-wake cycles have been studied mainly in newborn infants undergoing circumcision without anesthesia. Emde and coworkers observed that painful procedures were followed by prolonged periods of non-rapid-eye-movement sleep in newborns and confirmed these observations in a controlled study of neonates undergoing circumcision without anesthesia.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/

...severe stress of circumcision

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1130327?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents [they actually use circumcision as a 'baseline' to determine what stressed babies cries are like]

It was a centuries-old notion that had profound ramifications for medicine: Infants, especially those born prematurely, felt little or no pain. [...] By the mid-1980s, however, textbook recommendations were backed by a mounting body of evidence showing that newborns and infants had distinct physiological reactions to surgical and other invasive procedures. Research showed, for instance, that infants receiving little or no anesthesia had increased levels of various stress-triggered steroids, including epinephrine and cortisol, which acted to break down carbohydrates and fats stored in babies’ bodies. Such losses could compromise recovery.

https://hms.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/HMS_OTB_Winter11_Vol17_No1.pdf

...so it's obviously traumatic, and when the studies talking about 'frequency of crying' and 'inability of babies to calm themselves', they're clearly talking about an emotional level of reaction.

I take it you're cut, right? Otherwise what is your angle in all this?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Take a hammer to your head. Your emotional and psychological outlook will change.

[–]Kitbixby 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm getting the sense that you were hoping for an Eco chamber and didn't get one--and that's why you are being so hostile.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hostile? Perhaps that's your defense mechanisms kicking in.

Refer to my username.

[–]Kitbixby 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Dear, Thin K-Morea bou tit,

You literally said someone should smash their head with a hammer. If you don't see that as hostile then I'm not really sure you should be talking about mutilation and bodily harm. So, how about you take off your tin foil hat (studies are now showing it can cause Alzheimer's and dementia), open the door to your EcoChamber 3000, and go visit the real world for a change--where almost everyone knows what actually constitutes hostility, mutilation, and violence.

Sincerely, Me

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The physiological change will create emotional and psychological change.

Cutting up healthy babies is mutilation.

[–]Kitbixby 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You still haven't explained why you wanted someone to take a hammer to their head--unless, is that how you got to be this way?

[–]MarzMonkey -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"But it looks nice!" - Stupid women

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fathers who have the "gotta match" attitude are just as nauseating.

[–]DavidGjam 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why women? Stupid everyone.

[–]kippot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

OP, youre doing gods work here but it seems this sub or at least this thread is going full on ignorance because "culture" or something

the only countries/regions doing these MGM are usa, parts of MENA and israel (and other jews (possibly).

are "i dont remember it" "its culture, tradition" "my dick looks better now" really good justifications for MGM ?

fucking genderflip it and see if that shit flies

[–]pericardiyum 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yea sorry, I've had one and it was worth it!

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What age? What reason?

[–]pericardiyum -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

For health reasons (family is not religious). I remember it, so I was around 3-4. Not sure how it was before but it's been flawless ever since.

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What was the health reason?

[–]_Aggort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Does it really matter dude?

[–]Thinkmoreaboutit[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to know.

[–]_Aggort -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You may want to know, but you don't need to. I really don't understand your rapid change of character.