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News/PoliticsUK adopts international antisemitism definition to combat hate crime against Jews (theguardian.com)

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[–]akivachaimארץ ישראל לעם ישראל על פי תורת ישראל 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Excellent news. Only neo-Nazis, jihadists, and other assorted bigots will have a problem with this.

[–]Nechama 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm shocked that Corbyn agreed to this.

Maybe it's a mea culpa of sorts after he let his party degenerate into bigotry.

[–]MostlyWicked 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ironic. The Guardian is among the media outlets that is perpetuating anti-Semitism, including over-sweeping condemnation of Israel.

[–]uncannylizard 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (21子コメント)

I just read their 'extended guidelines" and so basically under the new guidelines it is now anti-Semitic to support a one state solution if the state isn't exclusively Jewish or to support Israel not being a Jewish state. It's also anti-semitism to make any comparison or analogy between what Israel does and what the Nazis did. Conceivably you could be arrested in the U.K. now for committing one of these thought crimes.

Jeremy Corbyn supports the new definition; I guess everyone is scared shitless of being accused of anti-semitism now.

EDIT: I'm banned from /r/Israel. The mods did not give and refuse to give any explanation.

[–]MikeSeth 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just read their 'extended guidelines" and so basically under the new guidelines it is now anti-Semitic to support a one state solution if the state isn't exclusively Jewish or to support Israel not being a Jewish state. It's also anti-semitism to make any comparison or analogy between what Israel does and what the Nazis did.

Correct, that is antisemitism.

[–]rosinthebow 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup. It's anti Jewish to try to destroy the Jewish state.

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I just read their 'extended guidelines" and so basically under the new guidelines it is now anti-Semitic to support a one state solution if the state isn't exclusively Jewish

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,

...

It's also anti-semitism to make any comparison or analogy between what Israel does and what the Nazis did

http://www.adl.org/israel-international/israel-middle-east/content/AG/inaccuracy-israel-nazis.html

Those that make the comparison between the Jewish state and the Nazis and Hitler – who perpetrated the greatest and largest act of anti-Semitism in world history – have not chosen this comparison innocently or dispassionately. It is a charge that is purposefully directed at Jews in an effort to associate the victims of Nazi crimes with the Nazi perpetrators, and serves to diminish the significance and uniqueness of the Holocaust. To make such a comparison constitutes blatant hostility toward Jews, Jewish history and the legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.

...

Conceivably you could be arrested in the U.K. now for committing one of these thought crimes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38281950

Police in the UK already use this definition. However, it can now also be used by other bodies, such as councils and universities, although it will not be legally binding.

...

thought crimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) they intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or

(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

...

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So... you agree with me? I'm not sure what the point of this is. You just confirmed what I wrote.

    ...

    if the state isn't exclusively Jewish

    ...

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination

    ...

    This is a more wordy rephrasing of what I wrote. You again are just confirming what I said. I have no clue what the point of your comment is.

    ...

    To make such a comparison constitutes blatant hostility toward Jews, Jewish history and the legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.

    ...

    Yes, and this definition of anti-semitism could mean that many innocuous thoughts and opinions that are clearly not anti-semitic will fall under A and B.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

    In epistemology, the burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi (shorthand for Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.

    ...

    Again for a third time you arent making any point in your comment

    ...

    thought crimes

    ...

    threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting

    they intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or (b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby

    ...

    [–]uncannylizard -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    if the state isn't exclusively Jewish ... Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination

    Same thing

    To make such a comparison constitutes blatant hostility toward Jews, Jewish history and the legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.

    Thats an opinion, and a ridiculous one at that. Again, it doesn't affect what I wrote, its just asserting that making that comparison is anti-semitic, which defies common sense.

    threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting they intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or (b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby

    The whole point is that by calling opinions like supporting a binational one-state solution anti-semitic, it is allowing those views become seen as 'stiring up racial hate'. Thats the whole point.

    Edit: im permabanned by the mods. No explanation.

    [–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Same thing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

    Equivocation ("to call by the same name") is an informal logical fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).

    ...

    Thats an opinion, and a ridiculous one at that. Again, it doesn't affect what I wrote, its just asserting that making that comparison is anti-semitic, which defies common sense.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_incredulity.2FLack_of_imagination

    Arguments from incredulity assume that one's own deductive logic is the ultimate, universal scale upon which all ideas must be judged.

    ...

    The whole point is that by calling opinions like supporting a binational one-state solution anti-semitic, it is allowing those views become seen as 'stiring up racial hate'. Thats the whole point.

    ...

    thought crimes

    behaviour...intends to stir up racial hatred

    ...

    [–]jbustter2Israel 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

    I don't see it :/

    [–]uncannylizard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    Those are the two things I mentioned.

    edit: im banned, I cant respond

    [–]jbustter2Israel 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    anti-Semitic to support a one state solution if the state isn't exclusively Jewish or to support Israel not being a Jewish state

    im talking about that.

    [–]Montoglia -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    People deny the right of self determination to peoples all over the world: Kurds, Tibetans, Basques, Corsicans... The reasons for doing so are not necessarily, and mostly never, due to bigotry or prejudice, but due to conflicting political claims which are also legitimate. That is precisely the case with this conflict, and not anti-semitism. Making this debate off-limits would be an egregious double standard to shield Israel from scrutiny.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    This is largely a red herring, as Israel is seldom subject to greater standards than other democratic nations. The complaint is generally about how undemocratic regimes get a free pass committing similar abuses, and also to demand that criticism of similar abuses from other countries is made every time Israel is criticized (the "singling out" trope), which is ridiculous and would make discussion impossible.

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    This is an obvious one.

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    Quite ridiculous, considering how Israeli leaders constantly draw comparisons of their enemies with the Nazis. This is something that is constantly done, about any given topic, hence Godwin's law. No reason to shield Israel from it. The arguments in themselves should stand or fall on their own.

    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

    This one is also a logical one.

    All in all, this "definition" seems to have been crafted in Netanyahu's office. Couldn't have asked for more.

    [–]jbustter2Israel 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The reasons for doing so are not necessarily, and mostly never, due to bigotry or prejudice, but due to conflicting political claims which are also legitimate.

    Saying "Jews don't deserve a state, or denying their existence as an ethnic group" is racist. thats the idea here.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. This is largely a red herring, as Israel is seldom subject to greater standards than other democratic nations.

    This really apply only compared to Democratic nations. Not to others. I don't see the problem.

    No reason to shield Israel from it. The arguments in themselves should stand or fall on their own.

    Unfortunately compering Israel to the Nazis is too common, it's used alot for illegitimate criticism due to antisametism, and let's be honest, there is no reason to say "Israel is like Nazi Germany".

    All in all, this "definition" seems to have been crafted in Netanyahu's office. Couldn't have asked for more.

    Using the Chance to make fun of Netanyahu because of some conspiracy you believe in, and because you Disagree with him politically. That was unnecessary, Now I stopped taking you seriously.

    [–]Montoglia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Saying "Jews don't deserve a state, or denying their existence as an ethnic group" is racist. thats the idea here.

    So when Spanish say Basques should not have a state they are being racist? When French deny Corsicans a state they are being racists? When Turkish object to Kurdish aspirations they are being racists? Shall we forbid those political positions as well?

    This really apply only compared to Democratic nations. Not to others. I don't see the problem.

    I have yet to encounter an example of this transgression. Not sure why the need to include it as it is.

    Unfortunately compering Israel to the Nazis is too common, it's used alot for illegitimate criticism due to antisametism, and let's be honest, there is no reason to say "Israel is like Nazi Germany".

    It's insensitive and inflammatory, but is it really a sign of bigotry against Jews, or just misguided animosity against a state and its policies? And should it be applied to any other Nazi comparison, including those recurrently used by Israeli leaders? Because I don't think Palestinians or Iranians like to be called Nazis anymore than Jews.

    Using the Chance to make fun of Netanyahu because of some conspiracy you believe in, and because you Disagree with him politically.

    Not a conspiracy theory. Just noting how pro-Israel this "definition" is.

    [–]DerAsylant 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    btw would it be hypothetically legal, to draw parallels between BLM and early SS movement or maybe KKK mobs? I often see statements made by Palestinians and Anti Zionists to emphasize alleged similarities between parts or Irgun and Hamas while next time calling Israel a Nazi Germany reincarnated. Do they think that by this logic also :Hamas=Nazis? And why exactly should well meaning humanist and rights activists always seek analogies and try to compare Israel especially to Nazis and not USA, or Soviet Union or Poland any other state for that matter?

    [–]uncannylizard 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Everything is compared to the Nazis. George W Bush was compared to Hitler routinely. Any censorship/civil rights violation is compared to Goebels. Any ethnic nationalism is compared to Aryan nationalism. Any charismatic populism is compared to Nazi era fascism. Any mass killing is compared to the Holocaust. It's just the way things are. WWII was the most dramatic event in history. When people want to make a strong point they will naturally want to use a comparison to Hitler, Nazi Germany, or the Holocaust because it's the most extreme case that everyone is universally familiar with.

    Edit: Im permabanned, the mods gave no explanation.

    [–]DerAsylant 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    i just ask again: would it be hypothetically legal, to draw parallels between BLM and early SS movement or maybe KKK mobs?

    George W Bush was compared to Hitler routinely

    Obama, too? was he ever compared to Jefferson Davis?

    Any ethnic nationalism is compared to Aryan nationalism

    Native American nationalism , Kurdi nationalism, Chechen Naionalism, Vietnamese Nationalism or even La Raza/Black Power ,too?

    Any charismatic populism is compared to Nazi era fascism

    Chomsky and Finkelstein are regarded as pretty charismatic demagogues and enjoy popularity, were they ever compared to fascists?

    Any mass killing is compared to the Holocaust.

    People who condemn Israel for Sabra and Shatila refuse to condemn Khmer rouge.

    comparison to Hitler, Nazi Germany, or the Holocaust

    Israel isn´t compared but set as equivalent

    [–]uncannylizard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    i just ask again: would it be hypothetically legal, to draw parallels between BLM and early SS movement or maybe KKK mobs?

    I don't know of any law that would prevent you from doing that.

    Obama, too? was he ever compared to Jefferson Davis?

    Obama was definitely compared to Hitler many times because he is charismatic and republicans accused him of undermining the seperation of powers by relying on executive authority. He wasnt compared to Jefferson Davis because Davis is most famous for his seperatism and Obama was never a seperatist. If the govenor of Texas supported Texan seperation then they would definitely be compared to Jefferson Davis.

    Native American nationalism , Kurdi nationalism, Chechen Naionalism, Vietnamese Nationalism or even La Raza/Black Power ,too?

    White nationalism in the USA is. Chinese nationalism is. Persian natinalism is. Arab nationalism definitely is. And especially Palestinian nationalism is compared to Nazism frequently.

    Chomsky and Finkelstein are regarded as pretty charismatic demagogues and enjoy popularity, were they ever compared to fascists?

    They are definitely not seen as demagogues or charismatic. They are both mumbling pretty soft spoken academics, pretty much the opposite of charismatic or populist demagogues. Finkelstein is pretty much the polar opposite of a charismatic individual.

    People who condemn Israel for Sabra and Shatila refuse to condemn Khmer rouge.

    I dont know what this is referring to. Are you talking about when Chomsky critcized the legimitacy ofthe initial reports about the Khmer Rouge genocide in the 70's? Pretty sure he has since called it a crime against humanity without parallel since WWII.

    Israel isn´t compared but set as equivalent

    That seems like your interpretation, but not what the people making the comparison, nor what the anti-semitism law actually say.

    EDIT: I'm permabanned by the mods. No explanation whatosever.

    [–]the_raucous_oneUSA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's just the way things are

    Basically sums up your argument. Just because the Nazi comparison is common in the public discourse doesn't mean the comparison is valid.

    I would not use rhetoric against 'Standing Rock ' protesters that compared their actions to those that the US Army used against Native Americans in the 18th and the 19th century, nor would I accuse today's China of being 'Genghis Khan' like in exercising their power on the international stage.

    Whether these comparisons can be shown to have a degree of truth in them is irrelevant - using these highly charged and steeped in symbolism comparisons is only meant to enrage and hurt, not to offer any insight.

    [–]ZombieRightsActivist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Everything is not always compared to the Nazis. This is not a sociably acceptable way to refer to things even when you are trying to make a strong point. It marginalizes the true extent of the holocaust. It's extremely insensitive at a minimum, and depending how it's used in context with Israel, it could be ant-semitic. Extremists often make this comparison to formulate hate against a person or group.

    [–]desdendelleחי בסרט 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I guess everyone is scared shitless of being accused of anti-semitism now.

    I don't think everyone over there is, but that aside, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

    [–]FochinellUSA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I won't be getting involved in this discussion; I live in a country that has protections for even the most insidious speech... and a lot of other enumerated liberties that foreigners can't fathom.

    [–]koala-conspiracyMedinat Tel Aviv 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    a lot of other enumerated liberties that foreigners can't fathom.

    Like a freedom not to get medical treatment because you have no money or be shot by some hillbilly or a cop, amirite?

    Or a freedom to be detained indefinitely, or a freedom to get your estate forfeited with no charges.

    Truly the land of the free.

    [–]FochinellUSA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, there's some of that which happens.

    [–]JIDF-Shill 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Jews have the mos that crimes committed against them in UK, that being said 99.9% of them are done by leftists and Muslims. Not by the mythical "nazi far right".