Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused about Men and Dating
Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.
Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. Mind you, not all men and women are embracing a form of androgyny, but many are. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. Our sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female.
Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.
For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional roles are going by the wayside. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is confusing. Why so? Because our society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who, because of free love, has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him, the way men used to do.
Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.
Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims he has embraced equality; however, he has actually embraced laziness when it comes to dating. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He is very self-centered. His take is, "If women want equality, let her prove herself to me."
Hmmm...
1960s Cultural Movement
According to Linda J. Waite, the author of The Negative Effects of Cohabitation, "Cohabitating men tend to be less committed to the relationship."
The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us when it came to love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming. The "gatherer" is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.
Herein lies the crux of the matter.
Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."
The male gatherer is into low stress relationships. In the event he should decide the woman doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons?
"She was too much trouble."
"Who needs drama?"
Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---That's his motto.
Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to this so-called male "feminist" who is actually a "gatherer" in disguise. The reality is that the male gatherer has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. He is not the gentle, caring, fair minded man he claimed to be.
Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything or anyone worth having requires time and effort.
Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt. “We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"
Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually liked having the man pursue her. His effort proved he had a level of interest. His pursuit of her was hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW. But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone.
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
| Percentage of single mothers who are White
| Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
| Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
|
|---|---|---|---|
42%
| 25%
| 67%
| 52%
|
What Needs to Happen
So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever.
Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged because, in fact, he is emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him how to be a man. In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious and it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.
The woman has to step up her game as well. She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails. She doesn't have to become a man to be equal. By virtue of being a human being, she is already equal.
I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune and that he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."
I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about 1960's "free love" men is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx and existential poetry. They didn't do much else. Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder why these women were "messed up."
Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss
The point is that male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same misogynistic manner as did the hippies of the 1960's. Unfortunately, women are still falling for it. The problem is, if the going gets rough because "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," then male gatherer believes he is free to leave. His thought is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."
To be sure, not all men act badly. I am not making that assertion. What I am saying is that society has created the "male gatherer" and he is someone who does not understand that love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is that he keeps his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up.
Shifting Focus
Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit: Rutgers University's National Marriage Project
- Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
- Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
- Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
- Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
- Males face few social pressures to marry
So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way. Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true because that wouldn't be fair or equal---for him.
Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her like she is worthless.
Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions. Only then will she be able to turn her life around, and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.
The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place. Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes responsible and more thoughtful.
Dating: An Art
Dating is an acquired skill which requires good communication. Some women mistakenly feel they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them because that is only "fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships in the beginning stages of dating. We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal everything that isn't relevant. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.
A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly decent men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has a backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.
Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female rather than constantly fighting against them or trying to act like the other gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.
From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he doesn't do it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.
Truly....Savvy
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Comments 126 comments
Women should not have to chase. It's bad form and usually doesn't work. Men do like to do the chasing.Good job!
Bingo!!!! This is a great hub! I've had many conversations with confused men who won't lead the way out of fear it may "offend" her. Be a man!
Thank you. I appreciate the thumbs up! If we can get more men to ask women out, the dating world will be a happier place.
I have to agree, Somewhere along the line the roles got so blurred that its no wonder we are all so confused on how to interact with each other, great write
Thank you! In time, I intend to expand upon the principles of masculine and feminine and how they complement one another. It is my goal to chip away at the fear we have adopted over the years, particularly with regard to the "feminine" which many women are mistakenly "tossing overboard."
Hi Aaron,
I've been computerless for a week, thus the delay in getting back to you. At any rate, I appreciate your comment. If you will notice, I had distinguished between playing hard to get and being hard to get. A woman who is hard to get is a woman who will not allow herself to be disrespected - sort of like you... I also stated that a woman is free to show her interest once she has determined that a man is worth her while. Perhaps you read the last paragraphs too quickly. Having said all that, I stand firm in that a woman must retain a bit of mystery. Mystery is not game playing, it is merely realizing that people are wary of those who wear their hearts on their sleeves every second of every day. Also, dropping anyone cold is judgmental. You would do well to look past the insecurity - hers and yours both. I have no doubt that you are sincere and I wish you well in finding a woman who loves you truly.
Im sick of men I don't pretend to be anything I'm just me and all I attract is older men, chavy men or just men looking for sex I'm soo pissed off and if I do attract a decent guy I accidentally blow it
Hi Alice,
We've all attracted our share of yahoos. However, I take heart in the fact that you have atttracted some decent guys; however, it sounds like you didn't quite know what to do with them once you found them.
Another thing, when you say you are being "just me" I believe you. But, just maybe there are some signals you are sending about some of the anger and insecurity you are feeling inside that is turning the decent guys off. Rest assured there is hope and you can attract a higher quality man. I know this is true because it has been my consistent experience to attract some really great guys. Mostly, it has to do with your expectations. Also, a common mistake many women make is that they try too hard. I am currently drafting a hub about this matter. I've neglected my hub writing, frankly, and it's time I got back on board so that I can try to help more women who are frustrated...
All the girls I ve tried to connect to - rejected me. They were all good looking so I assume they had a way too much choices with choosing a partner that no man cannot imagine...So I ended up with a girl that is not attractive . We are happy together (well , she is happier) but in today's world where girls do nothing but reject a guy who tries to talk to them the only way to avoid lifeltime loneliness . A man cannot afford to "play hard to get" - no matter how attractive he is ! The privelige to be not available is there for women only. We as men have to be thankful for whatever woman that happens to like us ...
Pavel, I see what you mean, to a degree, because Sociologists have determined that people generally "mate" with others who are of similar attractiveness. Furthermore, most everyone feels good about dating people who are even more attractive than they are. However, I have met men who were not particularly handsome yet because of their confidence, charm, or poise, I found them attractive anyway. So you see, there are opportunities to meet beautiful women, depending upon how you present yourself. Mostly women like men who seem very male or masculine, if you will, as this arouses their feminine instincts.
SavvyDating – you just got through reading my memoirs of my European tour in 1982. I wonder now if I should have returned shortly afterwards and married a German / Austrian man.
The reason I wonder this is, Astrid, the woman I’m still in touch with, got married in 1991 to the most wonderful man. He unfortunately died in 2006, but apparently he was careful to provide for her after his death, because she still lives in the same house and has the same job. When we spoke last month, she said she was looking for another man, and that it’s never too late.
What scares me from going over there now is, I’ve heard German, Austrian, and Swiss men often get mail-order brides from Eastern European countries. I know Americans get mail-order brides, too; I had a co-worker who was one, from the Philippines. When I met her husband, I saw why he needed to get a mail-order bride!
Foreign cultures often appear charming, but when you delve into them, you can discover not all is sweetness and light. While America has one of the highest divorce rates in the world, there are all sorts of reasons why other countries have lower divorce rates, and they’re not always positive ones.
What do you think?
Hi, Say Yes To Life. Frankly, I like European men very much. They have an old world charm about them. But to answer your question, it isn't a good idea to marry anyone you hardly know. It really takes time to know a man, and it is important to observe him in different situations. Men and women always put their best foot forward in dating, which is a good thing, but this politeness does not necessarily reveal their innermost selves. So, my answer is no - I do not think you should have returned to marry the German/Austrian guy. But if you are interested in marriage with a foreigner, and if you prefer younger men, then where there's a will there's a way. You might find a club right where you live (not a bar) that has gatherings for people of different cultures. You could likely find this on Facebook. You could also join an international dating site. Frankly, the only one I trust is eHarmony, but they will allow you to meet men from other countries and you can even choose the age range and specific country. Also, the Europeans like black women, especially Frenchmen. They find them very passionate and sexy. Just don't limit your options, and don't come on too aggressively. You have to maintain a little bit of mystery in the beginning; believe me, it works in your favor.
I wish you the best of luck in finding a guy who is as full of life as you are! Having said that, you made a good point about things not being all sweetness and light, but that applies anywhere. The main thing is to take your sweet time and do NOT move In with someone you barely know. Ever.
Excellent hub. "Frankly, our new male prototype has become adept at not putting in the time and trouble for women." You hit the nail on the head. Most single men these days see a serious relationship or commitment as an obligation. They don't want to give anything, but they expect to receive all the sexual benefits that come after you're in an exclusive relationship. At least this is how I see it and believe me my friend I am quite disappointed myself. I think men these days play too many games and all they are interested in is how many women they can bed, but what can I say? Many women have no dignity and self-respect so since it has become easier for men to get what they want when they want, then what's the point of commitment? this is their mentality. What I really don't understand about men is why they invite you out one or two dates, you have an awesome time, both of you enjoy each other's company but then you don't hear back from him for several weeks or even a month. I've had this happen to me a lot. Again, I think these are all mind games. Personally, I like a man of action, who is decisive and knows what he wants. I think women need to grab a pen and paper and jot down all the qualities and attributes they seek in a man as well as the deal breakers & re-read that list several times daily so it can sink in. Depending on what it is that a woman is looking for she should let the guy know upfront. you can say something along these lines.. I don't mind dating for sometime, but I am looking to get married and have kids in the near future so I'm not looking to casually date forever. Sorry for my ramble. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.
Hi lovedoctor926. Yes indeed, the sooner we recognize "gatherer man" for who he is, the sooner we can avoid him like the plague. I once knew a man who had formerly lived in a commune. (Don't worry - we weren't dating.) Anyway, he relished the free-love thing (needless to say) but he also wondered why "all the women in the commune" were (in his words) "so messed up."
I said to him, "For crying out loud, if you were having children with men and you didn't even know who the father was or even if he gave a damn, wouldn't you be messed up?" Frankly, the free love thing wasn't working then and it isn't working now. Sure, we all enjoy sexual pleasure - but women also need to know that the guy she's in bed with actually cares about her. In that regard, nothing has changed, as far as women are concerned. Yet there are men, both young AND old, who have a sense of entitlement, and frankly, this bugs me to no end. My way of thinking is, "No, it's the other way around, you prove to me that you're a man, and then we'll see. It is my belief that all women can feel confident about this attitude, provided she is also "stepping up" and acting like a lady. That is not to say we are not aware of our sex appeal; rather, it just means we know that the decision to have a more intimate relationship is under our control. Period. A guy who is really interested will "get that" and he'll act like a gentleman, because he will know he has no choice if he wants to make some progress...
Now I'm rambling (and by the way, I don't mind a bit when others do the same since we all need to vent) But, just look at the Bachelorette. I see these young men falling all over themselves for a young lady - and even defending her honor and I think to myself. "How sweet. Love and chivalry are still alive and well." And it is. I've experienced it many times.
I like your suggestion about the list of values. As for announcing on the first date or two, that we are interested in marriage - I wouldn't go there. It might freak a man out, and it would be understandable because it really does take time to get to know if we've met "the one," in most cases. The most I would say is, "I'm not into short term relationships." He'll get the message.
Thanks for dropping by and leaving your comments. I enjoyed reading them!
Thanks, SavvyDating! I'll check those options out!
P.S. How do I get to know a man when I can't be where he is? I'm halfway around the world from Central Europe.
Hi, Say Yes To Life. Where there's a will, there's a way. You will have to get to know these guys on-line in the beginning. The reason I like eHarmony is because they know what kind of questions to ask. Frankly, they select questions that give you LOTS of great insight about a person's character. (They'll even give you warnings along the way, if needed.) And you can choose from their list or ask your own questions. If you choose not to go that route, then you can go the Facebook route and send emails. Just take things slowly though, by chatting with a group, because some people are liars (as everyone knows). Also, some Europeans have a lot of vacation time, and can get to the U.S. on short term visas. If they are interested, they'll show up. Now go get your passport in case they send for you, and start believing!
Best of luck, and feel free to ask me any questions anytime. You can always email me directly thru Hubpages too, if you wish.
Thanks, SavvyDating! I'll send you a fan email right away!
Savvy,
I see in some of your responses you talk about not being judgmental yet, on the other side of your mouth you are extremely judgmental in other responses.
I believe the problem today is extreme narcissism on both gender parts, but women especially, they want to be the center of attention and want men to jump to their every command.
Unfortunately the only males that will put of with females that want marriage are doormat material. Nothing wrong with this, but most men don't want to be emasculated.
In fact, not only do most of the men I know these days not want to date, women, but marriage is not even an option.
Women these days, in the USA, lack so many feminine qualities yet they want to be treated like a lady. Us guys laugh about this fact all the time.
Who wants a women that is trying to be a man, and to boot she tries to emasculate him to the new world ways? lol not a chance.
Most Alpha males have opted out of anything serious with a women, because the net benefit is not there long term, and the short term benefit would only be sex which men can pay for anywhere, and not have the repercussion or drama from today's females.
Actually us men are so sick of the way women act these day's we have a saying why we hire escorts.
" We are not paying for the sex, but for the woman to leave after we are done."
As harsh as this sounds, it's the truth and most women and feminized or emasculated males will deny, defend, and/or freak-out with these statements, but the sometimes the truth is what is needed.
Most men that are in control of there lives these days do not want the drama that comes along with modern day females, so go ahead and flame away because that is what most modern women are good at. Drama, irrationality, and denial of the truth.
Rob
Hello Robert Talbot. I do not wish men to be emasculated, nor should women be doormats. That is basically the point of the hub. So in some areas, you and I agree. However, I disagree with your characterization of all women and all men. The world is not that black and white. My goal is to help women to detect men who prefer easy sex. You've shown us quite clearly that such men exist. Thus, you have proved my point. That having been said, I appreciate your taking the time to share your comments.
Women should take care of themselves and let themselves fall into a man's trap. Hold on t o what they have and what is precious to them and should not be giving in all the time. Most guys like fooling around and look at most women as tarts to avoid any decent woman should know when they have had enough of a man and when to let go.
Hi DDE. You are right. Basically, women have to take the lead by holding back. A man almost never will. His brain is wired differently, yet he generally respects the woman who can say "No" or "Not so fast."
Nice to see you and as always, thanks for stopping by!
Men don't want to commit because we're don't want to risk the financial ruin that comes with marriage and divorce especially when most women seem to feel they are so "worthy" and "entitled" to his earnings, home, 401K, etc. With the divorce rate at 50% for first marriages, then 70% for second marriages where men usually are the ones fleeced for alimony, child support, and then don't get to see the kids much, why would we bother with commitment.
At my age, most of the women I could date are single moms with tons of debt, owning nothing, dealing with a lot of drama with their ex - and perhaps bratty kids, and more garbage like that. Most often (70% of the time statistically) it was these women who asked for their divorce - sometimes legitimately, but often simply because they felt "unhappy" and "unfulfilled", so they now want me to commit to the mess they created while I pay their debts, give them half my home, pay for kids that aren't mine, because if I don't I "must not love her". Screw that. Then when she gets unhappy the second time around (which 70% of women do 70% of the time the second time around), she can fleece me of everything I've worked for in 20 years. LOL. No way.
A buddy of mine divorced a year ago. His wife is getting ready to get married again after fleecing him. When he said to her "Are you sure you want to marry this guy?" She replied, "I can always divorce him if it doesn't work out. I've already been through that." She has four kids, and found her a younger, naïve idiot who she will likely divorce in a few years taking anything that guy has....and create another wiser male who won't bother dating any of you women for anything more than sex either.
Women have created their own mess. Go ahead an withhold sex. Married men are already used to going without. Divorced men have already played that game. We single guys don't want sex badly enough to commit to you anymore.
DarthW, It sounds like you've had some bad luck with women. Personally, I do not recommend using men for their money. That's wrong and foolish... and it always backfires. But not all women are that irresponsible. My article is not about "withholding sex." It is about waiting until a woman is comfortable that she has found a "keeper" who understands commitment. But make no mistake, commitment works both ways. The woman must also be committed.
Hi DarthW...It is always interesting and informative to hear a man's perspective on dating and relationships, particularly American men. You are correct in saying that some men hunt in order to keep score. But they are lazy hunters and they don't last long long. My point is that if a male is not willing to put in any time for a woman, then she may as well move on. Once things get less than convenient, he'll be "outta there" anyway. So she may as well not go there in the first place. Basically, he doesn't know how to handle conflict with integrity and HE has a strong sense of entitlement... which he has not earned. He's the sort of guy who is into "test driving women." I find them beyond boring and not worth my time. They are not men... just lazy hunters.
Also, not all women are as you describe. Your broad generalization is false. In this article, I am referring to a certain type of man. I do not throw them all under the Volkswagen bus.
Hi, savvydating,
Just wanted to tell you again what a terrific writer you are. And to keep up the great work
Kenneth
What a delightful message! Thank you Kenneth.
Interesting but I feel that women have created this difficult situation. Equality has gone pass equal pay for equal work. Society have thrown out confusing signals--men should be gentlemen but she is offended if asked to be a lady. His confidence is labeled cocky or that dreaded word "macho" but her confidence is called being assertive and is a strength. He is critical of woman's behavior and is labeled "sexist"--she can criticise men and is not a sexist. She wants to be pursued but she has placed into effect laws that can drift him into sexual harrasment depending on her mood. I read a news article last month of offensive remarks men say to women in public but somewhere simple pickup/compliment lines. Dangerous to pursue. I think today's women need to first deal with the feminist whinners in their camp to stop screwing up for the "normal" women.
Hello PMARTIN....Thank you for a candid response. Food for thought on how complicated dating and gender equality issues have become. One can "navigate the waters," but it's harder to do nowadays.
I agree with everything PMartin has said, with regards to all the double standards (not saying there isn't any with men) modern men of this day and age have been modelled in the women's own image, they shave their body hair, get spray tans, feminine haircuts, like to gossip about useless trivial things. I'm an Australian male, I've seen this shift in culture and it is driven solely by females. The man is catering more and more to the females needs with regards to physical appearance, what's acceptable in social situations and dating, what to strive for etc. I have nothing against women's rights and laws preventing sexual harassment, what I do have a problem with is your sexist article describing men's entitled mentality when it's the women that have driven the change in men. Men have changed because it's what gets them women. I find women and men balance each other out in regards to relationships, but if women continue to drive this 'change yourself and commit to me' attitude then it throws the whole dating paradigm out of wack. The men become more and more submissive, leaving the women 'unfulfilled' etc, why do you hear about the 'falling for the bad boy' stereotype all the time? Because the 'bad boy' acts like a man, doesn't bend to the females rules and acts on instinct alone, probably too extreme but they're closer to an alpha male than the latte metrosexuals that stroll down the street gossiping about E News.
JMH, As I said, "Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. Our sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female."
And as an aside, what most people don't know is that the male hippies of the 60's were very sexist.
Wow, this is great, great advice. All of it. Granted it was not directed at me (I am a guy, after all), but I was in the dating world not too many years ago and I have heard lots of stories from women I dated at the time. Also, I've met guys who are exactly like the gatherers you describe--serial daters, no interest in commitment, "stick around until they get bored and move on" kind of guys.
At the end of the day, I think it starts with objectifying women. Women are like kleenex--a thing to use briefly and throw away. It's nothing personal. Or intimate, or respectful, or honest (because how many women would fall into it if he was up front about it?). Maybe this generally has something to do with the effects of pornography? Porn is really just video-kleenex. It's the same thing but without a live woman in the room. This coupled with general laziness and an "I am the center of the universe" mentality and I think you end up with the male gatherer. It's very sad and I'm sure for women it's incredibly frustrating.
I hope that those of us who recognize this trend take it upon ourselves to be laser focused about raising up our male children to be something different. I heard someone say once that being a male isn't the same thing as being a man. This world needs more of the second one.
Hello sonfollowers. Thank you for your exceptionally thoughtful response. There is no question that the objectification of women is a big problem in our society, and yes, according to studies, porn is a problem. I appreciate that you understand what I am trying to say. It really is important for us to teach our male children to have greater respect for women....and women also need to be taught to understand their value. You've made an excellent point here! Thank you. I appreciate it.
yes, men should be chasing the girls, not the other way round
It's sad when the man let's the woman do all the work. How boring is that? Thanks for stopping by, peachpurple.
There are a lot of good guys out here but a lot of women either overlook them or want to take advantage of them. Women get hung up on looks more so than what the guy is really about in average situations. In other situations, some women are more interested in how much money he makes and can spend on her. In the long run she can lose out for that. The other sad thing is: women have switched places where men used to be. There are more women players now then there used to be. The only relationships that I see working in the future are the down-to-earth spiritual ones where God is at the forefront.
Hi word55....Women pretty much feel that men are hung up on looks, so I guess it works both ways. .I've met a handful of women who are materialistic, but overall, most women I know expect to work outside the home and contribute to the marriage financially. That being said, there has been a shift in male-female relationships, which is why I wrote this hub. Things have changed since the 60's, and not all in a good way.
In any event, I couldn't agree with you more about being down-to-earth and having a spiritual life together. It really is the only way anything works out for the long term. Thank you for commenting!
Yes, I know about players and their methods of "chasing." I addressed them in another hub. I do see that men get hung up on the word "chase" in this hub. I also realize that the concept of pursuing a woman, simply because a man is interested and not because he is out for the kill, may seem like an antiquated notion, but it works and women appreciate it. Naturally, I would not expect a man to pursue a woman who isn't interested in him, but keep in mind, she cannot know he is interested unless he acts like it. Furthermore, it's incredibly frustrating for a woman if the guy is too stoic. If he cannot even be bothered to call, text, send smoke signals, anything, then why bother? If he acts like a male gatherer, he probably is one....and that is a turn off for any reasonable, romantic woman. One more thing---women like this hub because they "get" this male gatherer phenomenon all to well, and they are tired of having to chase men.. Furthermore, the male gatherer will leave the minute he "thinks" the going is getting a little bit rough---or is he "thinks" she isn't interested. He simply doesn't have the energy or the interest to find out the truth. Consequently, I believe the woman may as well move on o that she can meet someone who is willing to show her that he cares.
"men... are more concerned with holding on to their assets than they are in viewing marriage as a partnership where each person lifts up the other."
Darned right,I worked 20 years to build myself up..and YOU think that just because a woman " woman puts her heart into a marriage and he leaves (perhaps due to her cheating,her unwilling to partner) she still has a right to some financial security"
Seriously,no wonder the sugar daddy websites are jam packed-it's cheaper........
IT IS INTERESTING REALLY. HOWEVER I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF RELATIONSHIP OR MARRIAGE FOR THAT MATTER. I AM TALKING FOR MEN.WHAT IS THE BENEFIT....
IKE, What sociologists have found is that marriage actually benefits the man more than the woman. Men who are married report being happier overall, than single men. Furthermore, married men tend to be healthier and earn more money. The reason they are healthier often has to do with the wife, who will remind her husband to have his yearly physical, or to cut down on the habit he seems to be developing of eating three bowls of ice cream instead of one. In other words, she looks out for him. As for making more money, the married man begins to see himself as a provider who is committed to his wife and future children. He begins to understand his responsibility as a father. In short, the state of marriage causes him to be more motivated and less selfish. He becomes more of a "grown-up" instead of someone who simply lives for temporary pleasures. Ultimately, this shift to manhood and commitment is more rewarding because the man feels motivated because he has a wife. He begins to appreciate his role as provider---and that is not to say the woman does not do her part. Often the woman works and takes care of the children and cooks most of the meals and makes sure the wash is done, etc. etc. However, in marriages that fail, at least one party has chosen not to develop a sense of responsibility.toward another.. Their selfishness destroys the marriage, which is intended as a lifelong commitment.
The reason women push for marriage is because she senses that the quality of the partnership is improved. When you commit your life before friends and family, the idea is that the man is there to stay. Anything else is too tentative and therefore unsatisfying for a woman in the long run. Through the centuries, marriage has been recognized as a stabilizing factor in society, and for the most part, this is still true today. Men benefit from this stability.
Sorry darling,but that whole 'married men live longer" is a myth that has been disproven over and over by numerous studies,not least of which is from the "Longevity Project"
In just on example it shows that men who get divorced don't live as long as those single. And seeing as 45-50% of marriages end in divorce,just this one fact throws all the "married men live longer" BS under the bus.
Nice ad hominem attack though "you'll never experience love" etc- YOU DON"T KNOW ME.
BTW I've missed nothing of the whole point of the hub,which is to lie and guilt men into being ATM machines for a new generation of princesses who feel they deserve it all.
"But hey, you'll still have your Cynicism and your Money. "
Cynicism,or a realistic view on a world in which 45-50% of marriages and 60-70% of common law relationships fail?
Money,yes I'll have it. Better than being a WalMart greeter at 70 years old because some woman got 70% of my life's work....
Will you let this stay on your blog?
Oh Dan....the point of the hub is to show how male gatherer's believe it is okay to avoid commitment. Nevertheless, society benefits from committed relationships and marriage. Why do you think the Gay community is fighting so hard for this right of marriage that you so ardently wish to throw down the toilet?
If you continue to show up here with no point other than to disparage love and commitment there will come a time when having you on this blog may not be beneficial to anyone. As to your point about divorced men who are now single and who DO NOT LIVE AS LONG, well, that is because they prefer to be married. Because things went "south" they are now lonely, cynical and unhappy....and yes, their lives are less satisfying---even though they usually keep a good portion of their money.
In truth, such men do not become Walmart Greeters---but maybe they should. A huge dose of humility would probably do them quite a lot of good. I know because I've had the misfortune of meeting a few of these men. They actually thought I was stupid enough to be bought. I never gave them the chance. Such men are boring, boorish, and self-centered. They simply are not grown ups. If you have chosen to be one of those men, then I can assure you---your time on this blog will be brief. I've let you in as an example for women who wish to know what the male gatherer sounds like. ....sorry, sweetheart.
Hans, Women shouldn't be degraded here. This is a place of free speech however, respect should be maintained at all times. A lot of the remarks here appear to be personal, irrelevant and off the point. I am appalled that God is mentioned along with such offensiveness. Of course, all men are not dogs and neither are all women. In order for us to understand each other better we must at least communicate intelligently and with utmost respect. Thank you savvy again for presenting such a good topic to discuss. I don't blame you for not disclosing unnecessary mess. A man should display more class than what I read here today.
Thank you, word55. I appreciate your input very much. I am glad that you can see why I had to delete his comment. Furthermore, I have moderated my settings. This should help....I hope! ;)
I have been trying to keep from commenting on the issues that seem to be increasing around the inter-gender relationships of current day.
For whatever reason, today is the day that I have felt the need to write at least a small textual vocalization of some rationale and some of the responses that have been evoked by way of this article, among many others.
Understand that once upon a time I was a devout diehard romantic. I would bend, fold, pretzel and even mutilate (figuratively) myself to try to mesh, fulfill and make a relationship work, to the point of some real self-harm and abuse from the person with whom I was to have been wanting to spend the rest of my life with.
This pattern of expectation, taking and small return was not specific to one or two relationships, but I have actually found it existing with a variety of relationships, be regardless of age gap, financial position or professional standing.
I take exception to being characterized as wanting cheap or easy sex.
Even sex, in and of itself, in today’s world and environment I find to be extremely frightening and risky.
I have held, for years, the belief that regardless of gender, every human should have the same rights, privileges, opportunities and rewards.
Only in the past few months have I started seeing and finding materials written and presented by professional and scholarly resources that have illuminated and put to word, the fears that have been growing inside of me with the potential for entering a relationship. In fact, as I have read and digested more, observed attitudes and actions of both genders and looked at the true and extremely serious danger to my very self, not just emotionally and spiritually, but physically, professionally and financially, the fear has been compounded.
I could, indeed, pursue a romantic long-term relationship.
To do so, however, now has more obvious risks for this venture.
Should I allow someone to cohabitate with me, my home would be changed substantially in the physical and esthetic sense. That is fine. It is a truly indication that I am sharing my life with someone who I value beyond measure, and the sanctuary of my home is now reflective of her sanctuary as well. She needs to feel that whatever our shared space is, it is her sanctuary and safe place to be. It is her space to recharge and take shelter from the assaults of the world, with warmth, safety and support surrounding her.
Sadly, when I have entered into a cohabitation and come into the home of my perspective partner, that inclusion was very limited to a section of a closet and a drawer or two. Aside from that, even something as simple as a set of candles in memorial remembrance of some who were lost and very dear to me was met with caustic retort, all the while surrendering more and more of the essence of me and suffering for the investment of self into a relationship that would only grow in its toxicity.
I have proposed marriage in rare circumstances. The latest approximately a decade ago was clear in its emphasis. No. But a few months later, in the same relationship, the person with whom I was involved with said to me that she would, indeed, marry me if I purchases a house in one particular neighborhood. Then, she would marry me.
This reinforced my understanding of the true value of me to a woman. I would need to have the perfect trifecta. I would need to be good looking, have money and/or have power. Ultimately, were I to have all three, then I would be seen as a viable potential for partnership. Until then, the value of me as a person, my heart, soul and being were immaterial and thus lacking in any and all serious considerations.
I have heard the rebuttals of this position where I have been told emphatically that this is not the case. That women do not see men this way at all. But the fact is that by personal experience of several decades of exploration, investment, sincere attempts, this reality has been fortified as not only being a hypothesis, but an actuality.
Segue to a decade later. I now have spent over a decade building my own life by myself. I have built a business from scratch and fought, feared, panicked, struggled and survived to the point where I am now slowly but surely securing my own financial future for the next 3 – 4 decades of life. I have learned, from repeated bitter assaults, that a partnership is not truly one of equality, but rather one that is more than lop-sided. I have learned that while supporting independence of my partner, I myself am still expected to provide. On one hand I have been told by a partner that they would love for me to take control and take care of things and yet from the same partner the idea of a ‘kept man’ appeals to them and then a breath later how I would be deemed less, deficient and worthy of a total loss of respect were I to do that where I would take care of house, home, cook, clean, chauffer, etc. To say that the signals are confusing is an understatement.
Now I come across articles such as this which tell those around me that I am even less a person.
Not only have I repeatedly been emasculated by partners, now societally speaking that message is being repeatedly reinforced.
Let me forecast a bit to the ideal of what I had always wanted to achieve, that being a loving relationship, married, inter-dependant and supportive, healthy in the physical, sexual, mental and spiritual aspects – all inclusive.
Here is what I get for risking myself to try and find that utopia which I now believe is a phantom mirage.
I get to risk my financial livelihood and future security. Should I take on a partner with a debt load and help her to clear it away, she can leave, take ½ of my company, ½ of my earnings, destroy my life for the rest of my life, and this is without children involved in the picture.
As devastating as that is, were I in my 20’s, I would – perhaps – have a half hope for recovery in a couple of decade’s time. I am about to go into my 50’s and recovery would be impossible. I am staring, very realistically, at poverty to death. That is a very stark truth that I need to be aware of when contemplating having a relationship.
If there are children, and this is a redundant theme over the years, I will likely have even more of my life taken from me financially, and emotionally – well that would just add to the total devastation. I would lose basically all my rights as a parent, and frankly the understanding of why men take their own lives in such situations is not at all outside the realms of my understanding.
Now as to the assertion of focusing on easy sex as my motivation for not participating or investing myself into a long term relationship and/or marriage, that is as far from the realms of consideration as you can imagine.
Were I to engage in mutually consensual sexual intercourse, or even non-consensual intercourse on my part, the very real risks exist where a rape charge can be brought against me on hearsay alone. Even when proven innocent, the damage would be massive and irreparable. Professionally, it would be the end of me. Once again financial, professional and emotional ruin lay in wait just off the path by a hair’s breadth in distance. This, too, is a very real and stark reality in today’s risk assessment.
Even the mere approach, communication, and/or non-sexual physical contact between myself and a date can at a later time be proclaimed to be sexual assault now. The damage is the same regardless of the sexual component or not, and the responsibility is exclusively resting on me, along with the full weight, focus and drive of the punishment, inferred or actual. This is important, once again, as even the inferred punishment is actual by way of social stigma reaching deep into personal and professional realms in the destructive reach of the inherent risks associated with the dating game in today’s world.
So sex is not at all a motivation. If anything, it is just as high a risk as a committed relationship. Assertions to that end are, to me, both deeply insulting in the personal and emotional aspects as well as the intellectual and logical aspects as well.
So with the massive risks inclusi
Briggs, you do not sound like a "male gatherer." The gatherer is someone who is an easy come, easy go kinda guy. He does not take responsibility for his children or for helping to provide or contribute to household expenses. Basically, he provides sex and empty promises, but nothing more.
It sounds as though you've run into your fair share of "female gatherers." These materialistic women are not worth your time. Just keep in mind, the common denominator is you. How is it that you keep choosing such insincere women? Are you only attracted to the bombshell with the long legs and the large breasts? The point of this article is not to demean. but to guard against dating the wrong type of people. Frankly, "gatherers" are easy to spot. Our job is to avoid them. Not all women are like the one's you've chosen to date. It would be unfortunate for you to give up on having a meaningful relationship with a woman because of all the fears you've listed. I think you're better than that, so you might want to look into developing a keener eye or better intuition, if you will. When all is said and done, the purpose of this article is to warn against "gatherers." I am not throwing all men under the bus, nor should you place all women in the same category. I wish you happiness, whether you remain alone or not.
Brigg777 - you state many excellent points! Thank you for telling it from a man's point of view!
Say Yes To Life, Briggs is telling of his personal experiences. I would recommend that you not take his point of view as gospel truth. They are the views of a man who is falling into cynicism, but who may have a glimmer of hope of digging himself out. An excellent point of view would be more rounded and would offer hope. Primarily, good points also recognize self-responsibility, first and foremost.. Briggs' views mirror those of men who are afraid of financial ruin. In his case, he is also afraid of STD's, but remaining single is not likely to help that situation. Long story short, the fact remains that married men are happier, more motivated and healthier over all than long term single men. This is not fantasy, but a fact that sociologists have determined through meta-analysis. And my article simply reflects the changing times which have not proved beneficial for women and society with regard to romance and partnerships, as the number of unwed mothers who are raising children alone has become a societal problem. The reason it is a problem is because male children are particularly affected by this loss of the male model. This, in turn, causes problems when it comes time for them to take some responsibility for their lives as well as respecting the woman.My response to you is not politically correct, but it is the truth. Nevertheless, I hope that Briggs finds true love by taking responsibility for the choices he has made. Only then will he experience deeper and more satisfying relationships.
Women are so quick to cry victim and complain about men, without regarding how they’re contributing to the situation. Sure, there are bad guys out there, but I’ve seen way too many women who blame them for everything. About single mothers – many of them are that way by choice. I know someone who had 7 kids by 7 boyfriends; she kept the first, and gave away the others to foster care. Obviously she didn’t give a rat’s @$$ about the quality of life of those babies. The care home owner I relocated to Seattle with had 3 kids; she bragged about how she raised them all herself, but being the shyster she is, I can see why (her ex-husband was an alcoholic; I can see why, too). I can tell you a bunch of such stories. Suffice it to say, if I had a son, I’d tell him to be REAL careful.
In the 1970s, Ann Landers ran a poll asking people if they’d marry the same partner if they could choose again. About half the people said yes. One man who did had been married 50 years; he said, “Women had character in those days”. I think a lot of American women have become cynical, and as a result, don’t’ bother to look for the good in men; they just have babies out of wedlock and try to soak men for all they can get. They don’t even give relationships much serious thought.
There are a lot of good men out there. Women just have to present themselves as good women and seek them out.
Say Yes, we agree on one thing....and that is that women have to step up their game too!. Hence, one of the reasons for this article. If a woman accepts a man who is nothing more than a sperm donor, with an exciting personality, then her children will suffer. That is the point. You and I agree on that. Consequently, both men and women have to be more discerning. Choosing a mate is not just about how you feel. Sometimes feelings are no more than lust if a man or woman has not honestly learned to build their character. Choosing the right partner means we take the time to observe their actions as well as our own.
The old adage is true..."Actions speak louder than words." I would only add, "....much louder."
Thank you for commenting. I believe that honest debate is useful.
Dear Savvy Dating
To be absolutely succinct, you have missed the point completely. Men are fed-up, and they are manning up. All the male posters (replies) have been entirely consistent on this one point. Entering into or committing to a relationship with a woman in today's world is far too risky for a man. His response has take two forms. He can either be a player (hunter) with absolutely no conscience (pump and dump) or he can be what you refer to as a gatherer (indifferent) . You tell us you want to be pursued, romanced, and courted. We're (men) are telling you we don't give a dam what you women want anymore. Take us or leave us, we don't care. We don't want marriage or Common-Law, even if there was a iron clad pre-Nuptial Agreement. The risks, by your own making, are far too great. I've seen men lose everything, home, child support (even if the kids are not theirs), alimony, 401K, Pension Plans, inheritance, assets, savings, cars, at the whim of a female who decides to end a marriage (even is it is the wife who brings down the marriage because of adultery). Guys are not going to stick their dicks into a meat grinder. Men are unjustly hauled off to incarcerations at the scream of domestic abuse, rape, molestation, harassment. So men are dealing with it and manning up. They are no longer playing your game.
Hello Non de Plume....I thank you for your comment. I see that both men and women are "fed-up" and that is why I advocate a return to an era of chivalry---where the lines of romance were quite distinct. However, given the changes within our modern times, "old fashioned romance" is difficult to achieve.
I see that men are suspicious of women, and frankly, I am sorry for any woman who chooses to use men for financial gain. However, you should know that most women simply want a man who loves her and who is committed just as men want women who are committed and who will not cheat. In some ways, both male and female are not all that different when it comes to our end goals. We both prefer fidelity..
Nevertheless, both men and women have to come to terms with their own weaknesses before they can hope to accept another for his/her shortcomings. Long story short, dating is complicated. Personally, I am not happy with with certain changes which have taken women and men down a darker path---and I will not elaborate here. Suffice it to say that a truly good man will praise a woman's successes without feeling threatened. And yes, women still need romance.....as I've said in this article and most of my articles. Consequently, the woman also has to step it up and not act like a man if she wants to attract a man. (Margaret Thatcher is a good example of a strong woman who was also committed)
Anyway, there is otherwise no point in a man pursuing a woman? You have to understand, de Plume, some women act like men because they have been disrespected as women. Frankly, I believe that this feeling is not helpful, but it exists nevertheless, oftentimes for good reason. Our society has changed and I do not know whether we will ever find our way back. Even I have encountered men who just want to bed me---no strings attached. Those men do not have my respect and I will not engage with them except to point out their misconceptions. If any man wants "easy love" he can always pay a prostitute.....but he will not give him the companionship and respect he craves. Frankly, any man who cares more about his pension than the value of a truly loving mate has some serious problems, and he will end up alone unless he has the money to seek out enough prostitutes. Love does not come with a 100% guarantee. I suggest both men and women "grow up" and stop blaming your problems on someone else.. Become the man or woman you were meant to be and then you will be able to recognize the mate who really is worth your precious time.
Lol - "No offence, but you are a coward". None taken.
I would say that if my approach to dating prevented me from having fulfilling relationships with women and I lived my life feeling as if I were missing out on something, then perhaps yes, cowardice would be an accurate descriptor. If, on the other hand, my approach gets me what I want without doing any harm to anyone, then I would call it more pragmatic. The risk/reward ratio has to make sense for most men to consider engaging in behaviours, and it seems to be out of balance lately.
In some ways I do regret the mistrust between the sexes, and ideally people should be suitably paired up with like minded partners in balanced relationships, but anybody with any sense learns that we can't have everything and we have to make the best of the landscape we inhabit. I'm certainly not going to risk having to go back to work again to earn back what I might lose (either directly to a woman or in lawyer's fees) should a relationship not work out. The world has changed and there are fewer and fewer financial opportunities available. I certainly don't see the same opportunities for my own children as I had. It's more important to me to be able to provide financial assistance to my kids than spend time and effort and risk on a fairy tale scenario that statistics clearly indicate is not a good bet.
It's easy for you to say that someone doesn't have the guts to "date a woman who might not stay" - but why on earth would I make it a goal of mine to date a woman who might not stay? The purpose of dating (the way I see it) is to see whether two people are compatible enough to go beyond dating and form a relationship. Once in a relationship the pressure will mount with the "where's the relationship going" questions, and next will be appeals for higher levels of commitment. When there are viable, practical and pleasing alternatives to that whole rigmarole, who can be blamed for taking them?
If you don't want commitment and if you are being honest about it with the women you bed, then you are good to go. However, some women don't understand the part where "the guy isn't interested in anything more than short or long term fun without commitment. I am here to teach women how to understand the difference. The women I speak for would be wise not date you, Malcolm. That being said, some women are into fun and only fun. They are apparently OK with the male gatherer. I am simply here to let them know that if they are looking for commitment, the male gatherer is not the way to go.
Speaking for 'ordinary" men we are more than happy to pursue if "there is a hint of invitation". I repeat "a hint of invitation". If there isn't then what's the point. Similarly, if the woman we are interested is giving us the runaround (e.g receiving 5 calls from us before, if we are so lucky, initiating one herself) then it is reasonable to assume that she lacks interest or sees us as "friendzone" material only. Life is busy enough with job, health, elderly relatives etc worries for men to have the added burden of getting wound up over a girl who is ultimately not interested. Furthermore, in a dating context if a woman plays the field of suitable suitors it is somehow considered her Darwinian gender prerogative. However, if a guys adopt a similar attitude, then women, as implied in your article, justifiably resent it as being unfair, unchivalrous, re-writing the laws of nature and exploiting feminism. Both women and men have an equal right to choose. If you are a woman and like a guy then give him the signal. If he doesn't respond then take it on the chin (like guys have to do). Or are you saying that women have a biological gender based right not suffer rejection or lack of interest?
Anyway, I will end by saying that if two people just click then the relationship will develop naturally with both parties feeling secure in it. No need for hoops to jump through!
Virgo6, I believe a hint of invitation is a good thing. A smile is a hint. I find it to be simple, but effective---and it works both ways. I also believe that both men and women are free to “play the field,” that is, until a couple reaches the point where they both want a monogamous relationship. What I am trying to convey to women is that if she is looking for a committed relationship, there are ways to discover whether he really cares. That being said, there are women who always pursue the man or make it so easy for him to have her---she really loses all sense of who cares about her and who doesn’t. And frankly, so does he. He becomes desensitized to what it means to commit and care for a woman and any children who may come as a result of their union. Consequently, he becomes a gatherer and never a giver.
Thanks for stopping by.
I personally see things a little differently. I think it's a matter of cultural differences in what women like in men combined with the recent sexual liberation women now have. Women don't appreciate now what they appreciated then. What was considered romantic and sweet then now gets a guy in the soft to eager to please friend Zone. Men aren't stupid. They do what going to get them laid not what's going to get a woman's heart. There use to be a time when you couldn't get one without the other. Since that has changed, so has the other
Thanks savvydating, your writing is amazing but also your points are very rational. I printed one out to remind my self as a frustrated 37 yr old single woman.
I have couple of things to say to the guys who post here.. it is interesting to read what they have to say... Ironic that what most guys prove your points in the article. We now know that most men who took their time to read then to write comment are 'gatherers'.. It is not really men blamed as they put it across, I am sick of coming across articles, even hearing comments from both men and women about failed dating attempts that totally blame women. If you google, browse internet, majority of the articles are 'how to get a man... blah blah steps', 'how to make him love you..' 'how to make him think you..'.. This is so sad and signs of crisis in the whole world. It is degrading to women, 'having a man committing to us' has become a CV skill.. in reality, a man will commit not because women did this, that to him.. but it happens because of him, out of his integrity, character, personal development, and his becoming an adult, of course, when he meets a woman who reciprocates and he is attracted to her. But nowadays, even many women tell you how to manipulate yourself to get a guy like you, so many other variations..
More importantly, I have a lot of experience of that 'friend zone' both ways.. I have friended men who were attracted to me many times in the past, but guys, be honest with yourselves, even if it hurts you, a woman does not actually put a guy in the friend zone because he is nice, attentive, soft, not a player etc. etc.. quite the opposite, personally, I feel attracted to men who put effort for seeing me, who don't just ask sex, who seem to be thoughtful, generous (I always reciprocate, but the thought of generosity for both genders is attractive). I friend zone them because I am NOT attracted to them since the time I meet them. I know very well that it will never change, they just don't appeal to me to be more than a friend. And I make this clear with them in all the sense, physical and emotional and with words I tell them. What happened is most of these friends became close friends but slowly, I saw that they would become very critical of me, making unfair or a bit cruel remarks to me, just because I realised they feel rejected, especially if they heard I was starting to date someone. To my sadness, these were guys I truly cared and valued and tried to be a good friend, but I realised despite they don't show it and accept my terms, even for more than a year, they do still hope or expect me to love them or to sleep couple of times with them, not sure.. So, I realised that despite liking male company without romance even as I was so close to my own brother growing up and my personality, I get along with me, compared to women, their ego is so so big that a rejection get never forgotten and they really hurt me for that eventually..
So, my point is, don't deceive yourselves... face it... when a woman friends you, it is not "because you were nice to her, wooed and companied her or you were honest with her" it is because there has been NEVER an attraction from them to you. Attraction is extremely important for most women, we can't just fool around couple of months even if he is a fine looking guy and these guys looked fine really.
So, keep good attitudes, it is like magic you will see. Many of us are good women in many dimensions, all we need is a man who is really decent, honest, nice, and willing to gradually commit to us. We are looking for company, intimacy, equality.. without stripping him off his finances or blah blah.. These are excuses, I am sorry. You need to face yourselves. Otherwise, not only women are lonely, single and unhappy at this aspect (I am not unhappy at other aspects of my life) but also I believe that crisis of mating in all over the world almost has a cost on you as well. (in the countries with reasonable amount of development and freedom) I really don't believe you can just be happy playing the game, getting the girl into bed, then either getting lost next day or next month or when things eventually get tough in a year.. I think this is tiring, confusing, hard to play especially when people get older.. I cannot believe this type of life is a happy place for you either.
Hello seyhan. Thank you for commenting. You are correct in saying that many men here have proved my point about "gatherers." Unfortunately, I have had to delete about a third of the comments because they were so disrespectful.
Thete are some "bad" women out there, but most of us just want to be treated with respect. Most people want that---no matter their gender.
Frankly, our society has become used to instant gratification. In relationships, real life doesn't work that way.
Thank you for commenting. You know the truth---that personal responsibility matters! I admire your having spoken up.
Hi, I thought I'd offer a counterpoint to some of the posts. I am a guy in that post divorce wasteland where it's easy to get bitter and hateful. I liked being married and still like being a father, the sense of purpose, feeling like we're part of a unit and so on. I'm paying spousal and child support and to be honest the settlement is ok if not great. So many friends have shared the anecdotal story of the guy that got totally fleeced and even one of my work colleagues is living that. Yet still I like the company of women and even now at some point I'd like a longer term relationship (once the dust has settled), so I'm exploring dating and kind of practising how to be single and talk to/be with unattached women. Somewhere along the way it seems I passed from being Joe average to 'a good catch', can't say why beyond I have a good job, I try not to be reckless with people's hearts and I like to be my authentic self. I am not used to getting the attention I am experiencing and there seems to be a strong sense of 'must find a good man' 'I deserve a good man' & 'I expect there to be a choice of them available to me when I'm ready', from the women I meet. Despite stating where I was and a desire to move slow one woman escalated into a relationship really quickly and then started berating me for not 'being ready'. Yes it takes two to tango and I think I was somewhat unrealistic in my expectations. I left, too much drama, and no I'm not going to be berated into commitment. Now I'm sat on my heels wondering how to navigate in this new order. Gathering sounds tempting, make them do the work after the slow drip drip of 'not good enough' that ended in divorce. I suspect I will just withdraw and steer a course away from the fed up & dis enchanted. Honestly, I am not playing part of a game anymore. If we can meet on neutral territory outside of the BS; then maybe I'll ask the girl out, treat her right, she will
do the same to me and we'll have a great time for however long that lasts.
Usagima, It seems to me that you are doing everything right. Just know that with women there is a difference between realizing one's worth, because she is actually an authentic woman, and feeling entitled for no particular reason at all.
If you are authentic, then hold her to the same high standards.
I'm glad you chimed in. I find your comment refreshing!
Hello Northern Guy....Your comment was too long to post, but I saved this section for anyone to review if they wish:
"I stopped looking for dates online, and changed my profile from a well thought out description of who I was to "Meh, stopped looking for me. Message me if you want. Whatever." Strange, but now women who I have been indifferent to seem to be texting me and messaging me. My first instinct is to show appreciation, strike up conversation and be available. But I hold back. I don't text back right away, if at all. Or I do what they do... drop out of conversations suddenly (even rudely) and show up days later with a "hey sup?". I am really really trying hard to understand what women *really* want and respond to these days, and I hate to say it but it really needs to be said: it's true. If you treat women "old school" with attentiveness, respect and niceties, you're doomed."
I don't agree you're doomed. There is something to be said for being "somewhat reserved" in the beginning, but acting like a jerk only works for women who don't have their head on straight. I know good women exist. I meet them every single day.
Wow, this article is so condescending. It is clearly an attempt to shame men back into line, as though that hasn't been tried before. If women are concerned about the amount of men who aren't pursuing women anymore, perhaps this is a good moment to stop and reflect on what is happening.
Savvy, have you given any thought to the idea that maybe in order for men to be interested in pursuing women, the end reward has to be worth the risk involved? In relationships and even in general society we have moved to a point were the emphasis is always placed on what women want or expect and no one seems to be interested in asking what men want, or what men can expect. I know this is going to be shocking, but men have feelings too. Yet somehow we are expected to face being turned down again and again just because women don't want to have to do it? Whether a man is a confident go-getter, or a misogynist pig creeper depends entirely on how the woman feels about the guy in question. Divorce is through the roof and consent can be revoked after the fact. Maybe men see this invisible obstacle course and say 'screw it, I have better things to do.' And what is really interesting is men who say that seem to accrue many of the things that women are looking for in a man.
For men relationships are basically an invisible obstacle course of hoops to jump through in which men are just expected to know where all the hoops are without any prompting and there is no margin for error. And at least with other things in life, if I put work into it, I will be building something. With relationships it is more likely than not that all my effort will yield is an empty bucket made of nothing. This situation is not fulfilling, and when men realize that, they stop pursuing and the seek fulfillment elsewhere, plain and simple
Savvy I have to say, I think maybe you have been a little spoiled in your life. You and other women have had so much time having men falling over themselves to do things for you that now that the golden goose isn't laying eggs, you are angry. You don't care what men face in the dating scene nor you do you care if we are taken advantage of by other women. In fact when this happens women everywhere seem to look for a reason to blame the man. Monogamy is a joke. Do you have any idea how many are still prospecting potential mates while in a relationship and jump ship the very second something better comes along? And the only thing that men are told to bolster their confidence is that, no really, if you look through the slurry long enough you really will find a good one. I'm pretty sure that if Moses' followers were told that promised land always just over the next horizon they would have buried him in the sand.
I know this probably sound somewhat harsh, but the shaming tactics have got to stop, it is part of what is ruining relationships.
Fierce, this article is meant to help women recognize those men who have no interest in pursuing a committed relationship. I have met many good men, which is why I am a happy woman---and I would like the same for other women.
Hello Chris....Your comment was more than twice the size of this article, so I could not print it. The following are a few of your snippets:
"As a sidenote, in the rare instances where the woman does objectively acknowledge her own faults with their relationship's given dynamic in regard to the masculinity/femininity balance, it's usually not until the male is pulling away as an expression of a desire to end the relationship, in which case any assessment and adjustment on her part isn't really for HIS benefit so much as a last ditch, "panic mode" effort placate him into staying in a relationship that's of benefit to her... a point that men often pick up on, making her reaction one of "too little, too late".
"All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."
"Instead of telling her in a generic sense to "know their own value" and to not diminish it for the sake of a mate, it really should be framed with a qualifying statement that she MUST have a realistic understanding of what that value actually is before she can determine whether or not a potential mate is actually on her level…."
"No one wants to be the consolation prize, and he definitely doesn't just want to be her "provider" (i.e. sacrificial utility), while she threw her best away on someone else in her prime. He often doesn't have to settle either, as men tend to hit their prime in their 30's (when they start hitting their professional stride), which often results in them being able to pair off with women 5-10 years younger for casual flings, leaving the 30-YO women with far fewer options."
(Chris's words, NOT mine.)
To night I was harassed in a club by a group of men and women because I was not interested in one of them. Men are taught by other women that women who are single are lacking something. They are a incomplete person. Single men are complete people and that is one of the reason they are allowed to enjoy being single but women are unhappy and lonely and incomplete when they are single. Women are desperate to fix this incompleteness by chasing me or being grateful for the attention of any man who shows up. The man I rejected knew I was not interested as we have talked before. He then began laughing and insisting I talk to every unattractive man who looked my way. THIS was with a group of women. The reason so many black women are single mothers is we have a culture that insist black women are not happy unless they have a man and if that mean sharing a man or rotating men then you do what you happen. Look at Steve Harvey.
I'm sorry you were harassed like that. I am familiar with some of the issues that many (but not all) black women face when it comes to dating and marriage. I am happy to hear that you are choosing to respect your feelings and to rise above. Steve Harvey is trying to help women. He is especially familiar with the problems that black women face. (I was not clear from your message if you are a man or a woman, but in either case, we need to develop our self-respect, and kudos to you for doing that.)
I'm 71 and married 50 years' which some say is an accomplishment but I disagree. I'm neither a hunter or a gather I really have no interest in my wife. I don't want a divorce because I would get killed with support payments and end up living in a box under some freeway underpass. My wife chose to run our marriage and I had no input ever. I wasn't happy about it and told her how l felt now that was a mistake. She considered me just another person in the house like a nobody. I then moved to our basement where I still live, she told me she wanted kids and I told her she should find someone else I'm a nobody. So I just kicked back and she did her thing so I wasn't a hunter gatherer nor a provider. If I had to do over i would never get involved with a women again. They are not worth the time and effort.
That's a sad story, Unhappy guu. I can understand why you are unhappy. I doubt that you would be living in a box under the freeway had you gotten out sooner, but at this juncture, I understand somewhat why you have made the choice to stay. I wish you could find a way out and away from her. That is no way to live.
God created woman for man. Both, men and women have made the mistake of choosing to live outside of the boundaries that God ordained for man and woman to coexist. Without the respect for God and perhaps, the purpose that Jesus served for humanity, we as a people are bound to be doomed for destruction. We must go back to Eden and fix what was wronged. We must believe in the fact that God made all humanity and therefore, we owe it to live according to the Word of God. It is that simple. People would be more loving, happier and living longer. Unfortunately, many people date, are in relationships (long and short term) and marry for the wrong reasons. If such people knew how bad things could get then they would not make such bad choices. The time to choose God’s way of life is now and not when things get dire bad. Every man and woman has the purpose to love the other as well as the purpose to serve God so that things will work out for the Good. Read Romans 8:28.
Thank you, Word55. The scriptures are indeed meant to guide men and women toward wisdom and peace.
Men have not lost the abillity,feminism and the moderne woman killed it.
I do not think that radical feminism has been helpful. On the other hand, I also think it is a shame when a man lets the woman take care of him financially---to the point where he doesn't have to work or left a finger around the house.
Can you define romance? It seems to be nebulous. An elusive moving target. Do tell more.
Hello Smiling Dave.....Romance is not an obligation, as in feeling the pressure to buy expensive roses on Valentine's Day. Rather, romance is doing nice things for someone you love simply because you care enough to take the time. For example, if your girlfriend or wife isn't feeling well due to minor cold symptoms, but decides to go to work anyway, a romantic gesture would be to stop by Whole Foods to pick up some fresh chicken soup and to deliver it to her office in person in time for lunch. That is romantic. It's also a good way to make her colleagues jealous. Lol.
Great question. I should write a hub about it. ;))
A caring additude. Ok, I can accept that. Could you say that a man revolving around a woman makes them feel safe and secure, so that they can go more into their feminine nature?
Using the planets, sun, earth, moon, (circular orbit) Haley's Comet (elliptical orbit), can you pick an example, write a story, that demonstrates, describes, the dynamics of the of the feminine psychology, and her need to feel that someone is in orbit around her?
My goal is to improve my romantic abilities. Romance is a perception of being cared about.
As a man I need to learn how to project caring, so that it is perceived as romance. This has been a weak point in my past.
Thank you for your help.
SmilingDave
Lol. Well, orbits aside. I'll see what I can come up with, Dave. Tell me. What do you think you are doing wrong? Do you have a quick example?
Hello,
I am a man, have read all your article and find it very interesting. However it bothers me that it is written from point of view that nearly only considers the interests of the women. From a man's perspective today's dating scene is also very complicated. It is sometimes very hard to draw the line between pursuing a woman, being an ass who just won't give up and harassing a women. [btw I absolutely agree that to reach equal rights and social status between both sex's women do not have to become men] Additionally as you pointed out it is very easy to become passive because of the hostile reactions that come with pursuing women today (in a purely gentlemanly way) who do not want to be pursued. However again this is true for both sex's. So I would like to know what your comments may be on this as well as wether you think it more acceptable for women to be gatherers than for men to be gatherers in today's world. I look forward to seeing your answer. Thanks
Hello Equality....Thanks for reading. No, I do not think it is okay for women to be gatherers. That's pretty much what the article is about. (Are you sure you read it? Lol)
The reason I say so is because it doesn't work. Once all the dust settles, women still want a man who can who can take charge. If she is the one who always has to initiate everything, keep the family safe, pay all the bills, she will lose respect for the man.
However, the smart woman can and should do just enough to make the man want to pursue her. She does this by being all woman. Feminine but strong.
As for the man, he doesn't have to jump through hoops or stand on his head. But he does need to initiate the process and be consistent. That's all I've got for now. ;)
My reply....first let me rephrase the question as such,; why do I think romance is not my strong point. My answer is that I am too logic-driven, and come across flat emotionally. An example would be my ex-girlfriends statement that I "live inside my head". Michelle was always telling me my romantic abilities were sub-par.
A possible second answer to the problem of my romantic prowess may be that I am attracted to and/or attracting the type of women that are not a proper fit. Michelle liked to drink wine,
I don't drink (don't like it), I would work all day, go over to her house and she would want to be taken out. If I didn't, I wasn't romantic, and we all know how that plays out in the bedroom. Eventually the relationship of a year and a half died.
I believe you used the word 'romantic' five times in the above article. It's an artsy word to my scientific mind, however it's a concept that is important for a man to understand if he is going to be with a women. I'm not dating a man, so logic dictates I improve my awareness, of what a women wants and needs. Sure, I've been burned by women, but they are the only game in town as far as I'm concerned. So....Savvy what do you think...am I emotionally unavailable ....or....attracting/going after women who aren't a good fit.
Smiling Dave
Hi Dave....I do not think you are emotionally unavailable at all. Logic-driven people may come across that way but that does not mean that is who they are inside. In fact, you are romantic or you wouldn't even bother trying. Personally, I think that "Michelle" was the wrong girl for you and I am glad the relationship is over---for your sake. In fact, I find that analytical types are actually very stable and loyal. Those are highly desirable traits in a man. That being said, my experiences with the logic driven guy have been frustrating at times. I tend to be analytical but passionate at the same time. (Bet you didn't know that was possible) but as a woman, my emotional side really tends to take over in relationships. My point is that I have experience in this matter.
So.....the solution is to be with a woman who is at least a little more understanding of your nature. She must give a little and concede that not all things are wine and roses. Your part is to let her know that you tend to be "analytical" (or whichever word you prefer to use), but that does not mean that you do not have strong feelings. Then you have to do little things, like sending her funny emails once in a while (it is best to use a salutation and a signature). Another easy way to get a woman's attention is to call her "beautiful" or gorgeous." Women love that. In other words, if you can't wrap your mind around the word romantic, then substitute it with the word "sexy." Just be sexy in a respectful way, If you are not sure what that means, get back to me. Good luck, sweet (smiling) Dave
Dear Savvy,
I feel as though I'm on the cusp of an epiphany. Past failures now seem like stepping stones to lead me on a path of a healthy relationship of the woman of my dreams. The dating gurus, that have shaped me towards my goal of a healthy fulfilling relationship have all been men. That was good, but I was still missing a part of the puzzle and decided to read women dating gurus that were written for women to gain some insight. With you I hit the motherload. There are concepts and information in your other writings that have given me insights that should serve me well. It is interesting for example, how many men reacted to the essay (or hub) written above. Men are not the target audience, it's written for a type of women. Yet, it sparked emotions in men that were quite strong. Nothing takes place of a good women. You can do without, but masculine energy is dead energy. To explain myself, right now, I am 100% self reliant, I get the job done. Yet here I am, trying to figure a way to bring a women into my life, and it be good. There's more to life than getting the job done, but masculine energy is all about getting the job accomplished.
Currently I have taken a Sabbatical from romantic pursuit of women until I have myself 100% ready to bring a woman into my life. The progress has been good, probably need about 3 more months before it's time.
Your essays are about women looking for men that are capable of the making the women feel safe and secure. Women have antenna, radar, instincts, that are in full force in assessing a mans intention. You are telling women to use their gift. It only makes sense because a man can be dangerous. Women can feel a man's intention if they allow their natural abilities to take over. If the women's instincts tell her to run, she runs. In my case, my lack of emoting, gives me a scary vibe to the women, she pulls back because she is unsure, then I clam up even more, which makes me seem even scarier, which makes her really pull back and the cycle continues. Even though I may really be a great catch, if the women doesn't think I'm 100 % invested in her, if she doesn't feel like I'm invested in her, it's over.
Comments?
Smiling Dave
Thank you for the Motherlode compliment, Smiling Dave. I am glad I can help. My thoughts are that plenty of women will stick around even if you seem only 75% invested. Sometimes less. I am not one of those women, but that's just me.
Your only job is to learn to be a little bit more emotive. Practice makes perfect. But don't over-do it or you will come off as fake or "trying too hard." As long as you let her know that you really enjoy her company, you should be fine. If you find she is pulling away because you have clammed up, just send her a cute email or text. You could keep it short and sweet: "Good morning, beautiful. I woke up with you on my mind." That's all you have to do to reassure her that you do care and that you can emote. It sounds very simplistic, but doing these tiny things to let her know that you like her can work wonders. When the time comes, you'll do well. It sounds like you are learning all that you can from various sources---and I am always here if you need me.
Savvydating, interesting insight into the female side of the dating world. However the old ways of placing the sole responsibility of courting on male shoulders isn't exactly romantically egalitarian either. Most people enjoy being chased, not just women. Its basically free emotional validation with no risk of being rejected and with little or no personal financial cost, and it puts the pursued person in a superior position where they can end the relationship on their terms if they wanted to. Its the safest and most effortless way to date.
Here is the rub, when a woman is being chased it can end with either a stable and fulfilling relationship, or it can end with a guy getting what he was after and the woman feeling used and not getting what she needed from the encounter. A win and a loss.
When a guy is being chased it can end with him either being in a stable and fulfilling relationship, or a brief but passionate sexual conquest. Its a win/win scenario.
In this day and age, it should be no surprise that a lot of men have figured this out and opt to not pursue. Why? Because given the current climate between the sexes, its the most rational way for men to date. It puts him in a context that makes it difficult to paint him as a potential rapist or sex offender, his sexual needs are served, its easy on the pocket book, and he doesn't have to deal with rejection. On top of that if he rejects marriage and children, he can live a very comfortable life with virtually no commitment or legal risk.
Is this a good thing? I don't think so. The dating scene today is lopsided and chaotic, full of men and women who just want to find someone they can get along with and live as naturally together as men and women are supposed to, without all the gender politics. But it would take a tremendous amount of change to reverse these trends.
I don't know how wise it would be to suggest that your female readers stay passive in today's dating world, especially if they are looking for a traditionally masculine man. In other words, the gatherers are after a diminishing resource and they have a lot of competition they need to deal with.
Ladies, I would suggest that if you are in a bit of a rut in your love life, try being a bit more proactive and make your own luck instead of waiting for the perfect guy to land in your lap. I don't think most women are wired to comfortably pursue men the way that men pursue women. But I really would be interested in seeing women develop their own brand of pick-up styles and techniques, tailored to make them as big of a blip as possible on the radars of their desired suitors.
As an egalitarian I think its ideal that men and women should meet each other half-way in all things as a start, and then slowly compromise into something that fulfills the needs of couple's shared lifestyle. I think we can all agree that finding a mate has gradually gotten far more difficult than it needs to be.
Thank you for commenting, oTuna. Actually, I do not recommend that women be passive. I've written about this matter in other hubs. I do agree that it is easier for the man if the woman pursues him, but why any woman would even want a man who is too lazy or cowardly to pursue a woman is beyond me. I call them "lazy hunters." For them, it's "easy come, easy go" which is why I tell women to avoid them like the plague.
In the end, woman who chase after men are always dissatisfied, and (as I've written) is the main reason why women are confused and frustrated about dating. With the male, if a woman chases him, he's going to think, "Sure, why not. If I don't like her, I will still get easy sex." The woman, on the other hand, is thinking that if he dates her, he must like her---which is the reason she dates him. But men do not necessarily have any such feelings in 95 to 99% of cases. He doesn't have to like her a lot to date her.
On the other hand, if the man has to do the work of pursuing the woman, it usually means he is actually interested in her beyond what she can give him sexually. True, the dating paradigm may have shifted, but until women get a clue, it will never shift back. On the other hand, a smart woman doesn't have to wait for paradigms to change. She works within her own parameters, and she isn't lonely.
Well i really believe that women should be to Blame why so many of us Good men that are still Single these days since we really have No Reason at all to Blame ourselves. Since it is a Totally Different Time that we live in now really complicates things for many of us Good men that had really Hoped to meet a Good woman to settle down with since Most of the women of today are Nothing at all like the women of the Past were that really made it happen back then. Today many women that have a Career now have become so very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, picky, and very money hungry since they will Only want the Best of all and will Never settle for Less. Most women unfortunately want a man with Mega Bucks now which is very sad how the women have Changed since they really want men to keep spending Money on them every chance they get. And many women that have a Career today are more Committed to their jobs instead of their families which has caused many Divorces already do to their Greed And Selfishness since many of these women have also Cheated as well. I had it happen to me which i was a very Good husband that was always Faithful to my wife to the very end which i Loved her very much and very Committed to her as well which i always wanted children too which Never happened. Now Single And Alone again for me makes me very Sad when i see so many others that were very Blessed to be married with their families. Wish that i had been born many years sooner when the Good old fashioned women were around which it Definitely Would've been much easier finding Love in those days the way our family members had it. I know friends of mine that are going through the same thing today as well. Peace.
Hello Honest Truth....It sounds like your divorce through you for a loop. I am sorry things didn't work out. Needless to say, it is not appropriate to paint women with such a broad brush and in such a negative light. The world is full of good people and bad people, of both sexes. If you want love in your life you will have to become a more positive person. You would do well to let go of the cynicism sooner rather than later; it is not doing you any favors. You see, it is possible to find happiness---even in this day and age. Right now, your responsibility is to work on yourself. I wish you well.
Most women are not worth this kind of effort. I've dated one woman who was worth this kind of effort and she was a model with a very feminine personality. When she undressed, it was just like in a Hollywood movie. But I realize I can't always date, or even marry once, women like that.
That being the case, sex with most women doesn't justify that serious effort. Moreover, it's not fair to expect major effort from men. With rights, come responsibility. Your desire for effort from men comes from the fact that your eggs are scarce relative to sperm. Your eggs have to be worthy of the mate you choose. But the social parameters of that equation are gone. You're not kept women anymore and you're not first baby machines anymore. You have the opportunity for independence. With that independence, you have to do some of the man's work. You have to earn some of the money and do some of the pursuing. And you have to do more than that. Your new found equality makes you less attractive to men. Your job means less time spent on your beauty and a less feminine appearance. It means that you probably put on weight. Your social independence means more past boyfriends and less chasteness. These require compensating effort on your part as well.
The older I get, the less I think women. Also, the happier I am to have my libido diminish. I'm in my mid-30s and should be considering marriage. I'm not. I'm only pursuing a good career to placate my family who is waiting for kids that never come. I play high-level sport because being in good shape makes life more bearable. Sure, my highest value in life is love, but I have no compunctions about attaining it in this society. I'll keep turning most women down politely, while dating no one serious, watching porn to satisfy what sexual desires I do have, or the odd fling, and wait to die. Women just aren't worth it in this society. There is a pleasant tranquility in giving up.
Robert...It is not okay to give up. You are in your 30's. Even if you were 70, you should find more enjoyment in life. I sense a spirit that is in deep distress. You can feel better, but you will have to find a very good psychologist.
Your libido has diminished because of porn. Studies have shown that excessive porn desensitizes men by affecting the brain quite negatively.
This may also explain why you seem to believe that only women who look like models are good enough for you. The porn gives men unrealistic expectations about what women should look like as opposed to what a healthy relationship looks like. It is time for you to take greater responsibility for your failed relationships. There is no tranquility in giving up. Things only get worse. If you are suicidal, I beg you to get help. Please find a good doctor. If you would like for me to find some good studies on porn written by reputable doctors, I will be happy to do that for you.
Robert Seymour...Here is a valuable site that may give you some clarity.
Interesting opinion piece.
Something stuck out to me though...
We had a sexual revolution in a dimorphic species where the social construct between men and women was cast aside.
Women stated their intentions/sentiments via feminism; fair enough.
Without getting into historic and ongoing effects of the ideology and it's impact on society, one thing is patently clear and that is
The sexual revolution for women may be over but it hasn't happened yet for men.
So perhaps men and women need to be honest, brutally honest, about what they want (if anything) and deliberately consider what the other party has to say.
Crazy... I know.
the men NOW... These gatherers, are (at least 60% of them) the cultural byproduct of feminism's impact on society. This is good because it shows men and women are capable of change if that's what they want.
Either way... Bed. Made. Lie. Or make a new bed.
GLAD I'M SINGLE! lol
Hello Lucien....Feminism and the 60's sexual revolution may be intertwined, but they are not exactly the same. Feminism asks for equal pay and opportunity, which is positive. Radical feminism, which I do not condone, asks for the dismantling of the family. Given the rise of poverty among single women and the confusion of males who have no fathers, you can see where that idea has gotten us. Pretty much, nowhere.
The Sexual Revolution made sex more permissive for women, particularly with the advent of The Pill. Where men get tripped up is in forgetting that they (men) have always had the permission to be sexual with whomever they please whereas women had not. Consequently, there seems to be a huge resentment toward women for initiating this change, but at the same time, men like having sex with women without having to pay a prostitute or go over to the "other side of town." It takes two to tango, so men need to take as much responsibility as women for the negative results of sexual permissiveness. That being said, only women can effect this change. Men will not do it. They are not wired to reject easy sex. Just saying. ;)
Hi,
This hub has been very interesting to read!
As a youngster, I was never taught anything about how to go about dating, relationships, marriage etc. So I've had to learn the hard way by prettymuch making every mistake you can make.
I completely understand most of the men commenting on here, because I feel exactly the same way towards the opposite sex on many occasions. Many of them can be completely unrealistic, narcissistic, entitled manchildren who are total users and even some of the most horrible ones think they are the best thing on the planet, treating women like vaginal ATMs and breaking hearts without giving it a second thought.
I'm here to tell the commenting men that since I have my own assets, I'd look to have him sign a pre-nup or nup and I'm happy to do one too. That way, I wouldn't be scared of an ex taking my hard earned and putting me in poverty etc.
As for being hurt by gatherers, they abound and breed like rabbits in our very disturbing society, but at some point you say to yourself, shall I keep going or shall I give up on the opposite sex? If you've had nothing but bad experiences, then of course, giving up looks like a logical conclusion - but since you've had to have bad experiences in the first place, the hope is still within and it feels quite sad and disappointing to have to deny ourselves what we want.
The only real reason you need to spend time considering giving up is because you don't want to. Otherwise you would have just done it already, naturally, without stressing.
The trick is, I think, to realise that doing the same thing over and over will NOT yield a different result. You have patterns in who you are choosing and how you play it etc and these patterns interact with the predictable patterns of the typical other you keep choosing and so on. Shake it up. Ask yourself what would make you feel safe with the opposite sex so you could open yourself to a relationship (eg prenup, nup - legally conditional wedding, not having children, locking away money into super, only dating financially secure women and so on - I've only mentioned financial stuff here, but there's other points to consider). These safety boundaries become your deal breakers in future.
I haven't given up hope yet, because I don't want to and feel very sad if I think I won't have a relationship ever again. My previous relationships have almost forced everyone around me to convince me to take that logical conclusion and stop doing it as they think the price is too high for me, but to do so would be denying myself what I truly desire and would mean giving up on one of my dreams (and I've already given up on a bunch of others - which were far easier to let go of).
I still think I'm learning...and definitely trying something new is a good idea, as well as controlling what makes you feel safe to try again. Just make sure the safety boundaries are pleasantly communicated to people a little way in without making it into a hammer punch on the first date (seen people make THAT mistake before!)
Best of luck to all.
Thank you for commenting, Suzanne. I appreciate everything you have to say. I think that pre-nups are a good idea for anyone who is wealthy enough to have to think about such things. As for giving up, I agree that there is no reason to do so. As they say, knowledge is wisdom. The more we understand, the less time we waste on men or women who are not worthwhile. In my experience, they always give themselves away pretty early in the game. Consequently, we don't have to have our hearts broken all of the time. That I can say with full confidence!
That's right do what you modern women make a past time of doing blaming men for all your shortcomings.You wanted equality you got it in fact more if the truth be known.I've seen more women with top ranked jobs in my last few years than ever and IF they earned it by not sleeping around then good for them.
However women have become men in dresses or pants more often,so now days there are so FEW ladies.If you have to ask what that means then you are NOT a lady,real men WANT ladies,Ive not met one since I started dating years back.Why do I think she's out there....?Am I deluded?
Well Batphink..... All I can tell you is that I am a lady, but you are no gentleman.
Strong, independent, emotionally aware, motivated, intelligent men desire a partner who SERVES. Yes... a woman must serve her man. If a woman has a voice, conviction and self-respect then submitting and putting her partner before herself (at times) is simple human compassion and intimacy. This awakens a deep male/primal sense of commitment and desire to provide and appreciate his woman. But today the thought of a woman serving a man is blasphemy. As far as GOOD men go: if you appreciate him, listen to his rants, take initiative to show affection, follow his leadership, and provide an abundance of sex; an alpha-males brain activates a deep desire to provide emotional support and understanding as best as possible. Men want to love show true intimacy but as a woman it is occasionally YOUR JOB to tame his internal animality through sex and obedience. This cracks away at our hard shell and makes us willingly vulnerable to be both your strong steady man and your intimate best friend. Communicate with one another, no games. He won't always be perfect. He needs to work everyday at being a better man; just as you need to work everyday at being a better WOMAN. Strong men will CHOOSE feminine females if they ever come a cross one.
Jango7, the ultimate male gatherer. To be fair, gatherers appear in many forms and disguises.
J. is just more obvious than some.
Wow! What a collection of comments! I guess that I had the impression that married guys were all over hidden porn because of all the times they got "turned down" by wives they loved dearly, and had to keep the peace by shutting up about it and not making it an issue.It would seem to me that wives would be in favor of pornography for their husbands for that reason.
leonard....My article is not about porn. I do not approve of porn under any circumstances. I have already provided a link regarding what science has to say about this issue. Wives are not in favor of porn---even those who say they are. Deep down, they hate that crap, even if they are too messed up to say so. Read the link to discover what porn addiction does to the brain. It ain't pretty.
SavvyDating - where's the link?
Hi, Say Yes. Just scroll up to Robert Seymour and you will find the link. It's truly interesting. Thanks for asking.;)
When discussing pornography, people usually refer to movies made for men. They almost never mention confession magazine stories written for women. I used to read confession magazines; they did me no harm. As for girlie magazines, I personally have no problem with Playboy. I used to read it with one of my boyfriends.
Pornography is found in adult movies, explicit magazines and violent video games. It is big business, which has become even wealthier by featuring more and more violence against women. Rape scenes are all the rage these days.
Women who star in these films have constant issues with STD's, drug addiction and mental illness. They sign contracts, without knowing what they are getting into. For example, a producer might introduce a scene in which the actress is cut with a knife. It's a dangerous business.
Confession magazine was fairly benign back in the day. Nowadays, I worry that their covers feature young girls who look a little too "sexy."
As for "reading" Playboy magazine with a boyfriend, I do not recommend it. These guys supposedly appreciate the articles, but I dare say, they can find useful information in other places, which do not feature busty, naked women.
If I walked into a man's house and he had a Playboy magazine on the coffee table, I would walk right out. I can't abide a man who makes excuses for chauvinistic or stupid behavior. Yoleen, your experiences with men have not been all that good. It probably had to do with the violent atmosphere you grew up in. My point? It is harmful to our society to cheapen the sex act by desensitizing men to violence. Women who defend porn are extremely naive about the seedy world of big business pornography. They have no idea how badly these women are treated, many of whom come from abusive backgrounds and who have no self esteem to speak of.
I looked at some articles about Playboy bunnies. In 1963, Gloria Steinmann chose to become one, to write an article about the experience. It is called, "A Bunny's Tale", and exposes how the women are financially exploited through kickbacks, and in spite of the no-touch rules, sexual harassment is rampant. Far more recently, a Playboy bunny told about how the Hefner mansion is 40 years out of date, and is downright filthy, with people contracting infections from the swimming pool. Hefner has nightly parties in his bedroom where several young ladies must join him for sex. Though they show their devotion when he's looking, they do their best to stay under the radar, so they're not elected.
I wonder if actors in Erotic movies are abused. I heard about the extreme misfortunes of Kim Bassinger. She came out of making"9 1/2 Weeks" feeling like a rape victim. She verbally agreed to act in "Boxing Helena", then backed out when she discovered the gruesome plot. She was sued big time, even though she hadn't signed anything. (By the way, the movie bombed.)
I haven't read anything negative about Dakota Johnson in "Fifty Shades of Grey". Though much was inaccurate in the characterization and plot line, I thought the movie was actually better than the book. Dakota Johnson still has two more movies to make in the series. She may be waiting until she collects her money to say anything, but if working conditions were that disgusting, surely the money wouldn't be worth it???
Yoleen, Thank you for researching further and exposing Playboy. All the more reason not to read the magazine. I have not read Fifty Shades of Grey and don't plan to, so I cannot comment on the book or movie.
Penthouse is a magazine with a reputation worse than Playboy. It's the one that published those condemning photos of Vanessa Williams, which made her lose her Miss America crown in 1984. I understand Playboy refused to publish them because they didn't want to ruin her reputation. (I saw those photos; they weren't Playboy material.)
Back in the early 1980s, a friend of mine and I used to buy and read Forum magazine. It had no nudies, but it contained articles about sex. The real erotica came from letters readers wrote in, describing their experiences. I honestly can't see what's wrong with that. It was written for men as well as women. The reason I stopped reading Forum is, when I got older, I lost interest. It's not so readily available anymore; I think you have to order it online. It is published by Penthouse. But I still don't see anything wrong with it...
Most women nowadays that i have noticed have the Worst Attitude Problem and No Manors at all when it comes to men which these women have a very serious Mental Problem the way i see it. I have been Cursed at by a woman that i really wanted to meet at one time which i really thought that she was very nice to meet which i was very Wrong there. Today unfortunately women have Changed for the Worst of all and i Didn't do anything Wrong for her to Curse at me which i will Never understand why Most women are now like this these days. A friend that i know had the same thing happened to him as well about a month after me which he even said to me what in the world happened to these women nowadays. With so many women that now have a Career today which they really think that they're so high and mighty now which is very sad for them since they're such Losers anyway. The ones that are making a Six Figure Income are the Worst of all since they really do have very serious issues that need to be addressed since they Do need help very badly. Oh boy, quite a Change from the Good old fashioned women of years ago which Most of the women in those days were the Best of all and much Easier to meet for the men back then the way our family members had it which they were very Blessed back then.
There's having an entitlement complex, think of it as a cold and then there's this article that's like a bio engineered virus that eats your brain the likes of which the world has never seen.
I've never read it. Can't say I would be interested...
Sam...You seem to have lost the gist of this article, which has to do with respect, not entitlement.
The Real Truth....I'm sorry, but your comment is not entirely truthful. I am a woman and I don't act like that. Furthermore, having a career is a good thing. That being said, I do not condone cursing in anyone---male or female. It's tacky!
Ah hypergamy at its finest. I have seen this instinct play out so much in my life and this article reeks of it.
So effectively what you want is to have equality in work (e.g equal pay, opportunities etc) but firm traditional gender roles in dating?
So when true equality knocks on the door, women start cowering behind hypergamy to assert - we want LTR material guys and they should initiate approaching etc because that is what males are supposed to do. The fact is the vast majority of female dom is not LTR material themselves.
Women do not live up to the cost benefit analysis for most men. In a marriage, its almost always that the male spends more resources for the female (which by the way is hard to acquire) and get sex (as if that is a favor that women 'give' away) and emotional support (which is actually bilateral, women get emotional support too). Besides with the atrocious divorce arrangements where emotional support from women is gone and the financial support from men continues for years. Tell me how any of these arrangements are sound economics for men?
All human beings respond to incentives, that is human nature. The fact that men actually shun marriage or commitment is due to the fact that the incentives for actually doing so are low and the rewards are very high.
P.S - I am all in favor of women getting better jobs and education. Handicapping an entire sex is detrimental to society. But asking for selective privilege is morally bankrupt behavior to me.
And you are qualified to tell me what is moral because why? You sound like someone who doesn't like women much. What incentive would any decent woman have to feel motivated to be with you? Certainly not your money.
Listen, if you can't be bothered to open doors and such, and if you are so interested in your money, then by all means, keep your money. You'll need it once you are old, sick and alone. Good luck finding a nurse who will put up with your demands.
Just came back to read some more comments. This hub is quite fascinating!
Most of the men aren't getting it.
Women are PEOPLE too. This means, if you wouldn't ask your best friend or mate to be your servant and adore all of your crap, you can't expect a woman to, either.
She should not have to slather on about how wonderful you are and pick up after you when what you say or think is utter tosh. If you have truly intelligent insights and qualities worth adoring, she will stick around and show her genuine interest, without it having to be chore for either sex, because you would be a naturally nice and interesting person.
Imagine being friends with someone really stupid and they just don't get you and expect you to cater to their giant ego. This is what women can sometimes feel like when trying to have a relationship with a man. I'm sure men have felt that way too in their relationships with selfish women.
Women are not slaves. They are not property. You have to earn a wife or girlfriend or whatever with your people qualities, just like you would with any friend in your life. Relationships which work are not about a domestic servant/sex slave partnered with a warrior. They work because both sexes are equally important and have great qualities and a friendship they share with each other.
Suzanne Day...You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for understanding the gist of my message and for contributing your observations.
Frankly, I am appalled that some men are apparently so unhappy about women daring to ask for equal pay and opportunity, they have somehow decided that her "gall" somehow cancels out the need for them to act like decent human beings.
This is why I write---to help women choose partners wisely. The way some of these men think reminds me of the way men have been taught to believe in middle eastern countries. Disgusting!
Yes, I see this phenomenan all the time around me. Men still haven't come to grips with equality much. Having said all that, there are female equivalents of these around a lot too - the type that bleeds men dry, so quite frankly, both sexes are right to be a bit frightened of what could happen. But we all know there are quality men and women not like this, hence the search continues...
No doubt. This is why I tell women that they must step up their game as well. Otherwise, they really have only themselves to blame for all their disappointing relationships. That being said, sometimes the best of us can be fooled. Heartbreak cannot always be avoided.
But as you know, if our only focus is on avoiding what might happen if we try, then our lives will be rather sad and pathetic. That being said, we also have to develop wisdom. That comes as we exercise higher standards for ourselves. Honestly, it isn't as difficult as some of my "gatherer" friends seem to believe. ;)
Majority of men I know, are aware of theyr girlfriend/wife nature, that's why they keep a lover, in case this one hits, they have a safe house. I was a monogamist now I'm a monk.
This is the truth is not us the problem: GIRLS IS TIME TO WOMAN UP. Yes WOMAN UP.
But looks like it's too late even if you try (you won't couse your nature is narcissistic and never admit you have a problem).
Ladies you came one day late and one euro short.
Good men are gone and most women don't deserve one.
Do you even know what a good men is?
ING.... I deleted one of your comments because you used foul language. It's a bit ironic that you ask me if I even know what a good man is. Unfortunately, given your hostility, you do not fit the bill. I take it you are still bitter over your last relationship. If you have decided to live a monk-like existence because of your past, that is certainly your prerogative. But last time I checked, monks are peaceful. At this juncture in your life, peace has eluded you.
I hope that you feel happier one day, but only you can make that happen by taking responsibility for your life.
Monks are peaceful but they know how to fight.... actually best fighters of the world if you didn't know it.
Second nice you deleted that part where I said most of married men I know are miserable.
I will ask again.
Don't you think you woman are doing something really really wrong?
Its all just man foult?
Seriously... or you gonna delete, and reconfigure this message too?
I believe I already explained why I deleted one of your comments. You used vulgarity, which is unacceptable. Furthermore, I am not required to post any comments. If you continue to behave in this childish manner, I will delete all of your comments, and I will also contact Hubpages/PairedLife about your violations. If you read my article in it's entirety, you will find that I do not blame all men or all women. I tell women they have to "step up" and take responsibility for poor choices. In other articles, I explain what that means. You would be wise to take personal responsibility as well.
Why would any successful man in his right mind ever want to date a Westernized Women let alone get into a relationship with them? It's not worth it in any aspect whatsoever.
I will continue to tell the younger generation to look at closely the divorce statistics, how the courts treat Men and make their own logical conclusions. But the proof is in the pudding and men are waking up and walking away from the Westernized Women and it's about time!
Dear Mitch,
Are you from the "West?" If not, I have nothing more to say. If you are an American, I should not have to answer this question. Believe it or not, worthwhile men are not interested in women who might possibly be interested in you.
Thanks for sharing.
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