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Suing rabbi for circumcision? (self.Judaism)

KohenleviteConservative が 投稿

Not advocating this but i am curious if any jews have sued a rabbi for circumcision or breach of trust, fraud, forgery for signing off on documents that are not valid and have no value?

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[–]Louis_FarizeeQuit Labeling Me 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, good, it's this guy again.

[–]ajmarksCold-hearted Litvak (ברוך שעשני סנאג) 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are your damages?

[–]heebiejeebies_ferret 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (28子コメント)

It might help to know exactly what you're talking about here. It's not illegal to sign worthless documents, it just means they might not be enforceable in a court of law. I sign comic books all the time and it's not illegal.

If someone was circumcised as a child, their parents probably had legal custody of them at the time and were the ones to make decisions about their body and care. Circumcision usually isn't illegal, so maybe they should sue their parents instead? :)

[–]Ajfried22Third temple is the charm 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Knowing Op I believe his question is more about how certain groups or rabbis' conversions/circumcision are not valid or recognized by the powers that be in the orthodox world. So he is asking if someone who received an unrecognized and thus invalid conversion can sue those who misled about their legitimacy, acceptance and validity?

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (25子コメント)

If a movement declares someone jewish and rabbis from a different halachic movement proceed with a circumcision declaring a child jewish knowingly doing so that the child wont be able to marry in a orthodox community or open a business with kosher certification, i would consider that fraudulent so yes, itd be like signing a contract or a check and not honoring what the value is. Its deceptive.

[–]Zel606 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

proceed with a circumcision declaring a child jewish

So a circumcision alone doesn't declare someone Jewish, nor is it the only step in a conversion.

It is merely ONE of the steps, and cannot make someone Jewish by itself. It is usually done before any other steps because it is the hardest of the steps.

[–]heebiejeebies_ferret 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Ok, I didn't know what you were referring to. Thank you for explaining.

What would you be trying to accomplish through a lawsuit? What would be your ideal outcome?

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Circumcision for the purpose of fulfilling a religious obligation to be accepted as part of the jewish people. If the signatures of the rabbis do not recognize their own circumcision as valid, that is a breach of trust and fraud.

Children shouldn't be ritually circumsized with documentation certifying them jewish and then told they arent really jewish by those same rabbis.

[–]heebiejeebies_ferret 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (17子コメント)

The same rabbis who circumcised you told you that you aren't really Jewish? Are you sure about that?

I mean, you can't really sue "the Jewish people" or "the Rabbis" for not all having the same beliefs or identical standards of Jewishness. There is a huge spectrum of beliefs in the world of Judaism, from secular Jewish atheists to ultra-Orthodoxy and everything in between, and different people and different groups within the religion are going to have different views. Jews don't have a central world leader, like the Pope, to tell them what is and isn't acceptable to believe. Something that's an accepted part of a Reconstructionist ceremony might be seen as heretical to someone from a different group. Each individual has the right to their own religious views, and (at least here in the USA) it's unconstitutional for a court to order someone to change their religious beliefs. If an individual rabbi intentionally lied to you in order to mislead, that might be an issue, but I'm not sure what you'd be trying to accomplish by suing him or her, since it wouldn't result in other rabbis changing their views. If you want to be recognized by an Orthodox authority, you have to meet their standards, which are not decided upon by a Conservative rabbi.

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Actually those rabbis are responsible. Despite the fact they were orthodox and they knowingly signed me into the covenant with Gd gave me a hebrew name and welcomed me into the Jewish people and circumsized me, they took my foreskin and declared me a Jew only 20 years later to say that they dont see me as a jew and need to go through orthodox conversion. Yes I take a great deal of offense.

How would you like if you were adopted into a foreign family, physically deprived of something and after 20 years told you arent allowed to marry or integrate in the society because you are not a part of that family and your family denied they ever signed those adoption papers?

[–]NuchAThrowawayChabad 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm confused. Do you harbor the same resentment towards your parents? After all, they're the ones who had a child that isn't halachically Jewish and then demanded an Orthodox circumcision.

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

My parents made the decision under the impression i would be jewish. My mother underwent a conversion with e rabbis who had orthodox smicha though associated with the conservative movement. The mohel and rabbi knowingly signed this documentation recognizing clearly that my mom was a convert and signed off giving me a hebrew name only later to claim it was part of a hafat dam for later conversion. Like i said, its hypocrisy.

[–]heebiejeebies_ferret 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

That sounds like a difficult and frustrating situation. How do you think you'll proceed? What's your next step?

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Probably do nothing and continue venting frustration in reddit, i don't know.

I wish someone who thought they were halachic jewish like someone in the rabbinate discovered they werent really jewish so they could understand the situation.

I know some people dont care because it doesnt personally affect them.

What I want is the Rabbis to be honest, admit they cooperated and at the time of my moms conversion and my bris that they saw me as a Jew and that they are the ones at fault. Be a man and take responsibility. Instead to save their reputation, they wave it off like it is my fault or my parents fault. It doesnt phase them because they probably dont even second guess it and hope people like me dissappear.

RCA took responsibility for barry fruendals peeping scandal but still allowed his converts to be jews even tho he violated halacha and his students thought they were jews. No one doubts them.

[–]heebiejeebies_ferret 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well if you think you might have a good legal case, and this is the way you want to try to resolve the issue, feel free to consult a lawyer about it. But please, please, please don't rely on anonymous, unaccountable strangers on Reddit for expert legal advice.

It seems like you've been upset about this issue for a while, so maybe now it's time to either see a lawyer, go ahead with an Orthodox conversion (despite the unfairness of having to do so), or just let it go. In other words, put your pain and anger aside for a moment, look at your current options in a rational manner, make a decision about how to proceed, and then pursue that path.

[–]gingerkid1234(((ייד))) 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, to actually answer your question a bit:

  1. As the comment at the top says, it's very difficult to actually show any damages in contexts like these. "Pain and suffering" is difficult to express in money, especially when that pain and suffering is religious and nature and not something a judge/jury may understand. Maybe if you have to convert Orthodox you could sue for the costs of that?
  2. No court is going to touch an issue of damages resulting from a religious decision with a 10 foot pole

[–]ajmarksCold-hearted Litvak (ברוך שעשני סנאג) [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If the signatures of the rabbis do not recognize their own circumcision as valid, that is a breach of trust and fraud.

Are you claiming that they should have to return the fee your parents paid? Also, what's with the "they?" Circumcision isn't exactly a team effort.

[–]refaviJewish | Tooltips v0.9 (2015-08-27) 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't know what things are like in other countries (say, Israel), but if you're an American courts tend to stay far, far away from religious issues. They in particular are not going to enjoin a religious person from following their conscience. Consider this from the perspective of a different religion. Suppose someone converts to Christianity under the guidance of a pastor at a local church, then goes on to offend the pastor's sensibility to the point the pastor tells him that he doesn't consider him a Christian. If the convert then sued to try to either (a) force the pastor to tell everyone he's a Christian or (b) in some way punish the pastor for performing the initial conversion, could you imagine any reasonable court siding with the plaintiff?

Judaism obviously has clearer rules surrounding conversion and status than most churches in America, but frankly this isn't something any sane judge would want to get involved with. I'm sure there are already cases where people have had to, for example, undergo a second conversion due to concerns about the validity of the first, and that these people would have a much stronger claim to sue than it sounds like you do (it sounds like this is something that happened to you as a child, meaning you weren't a party to any agreement), but I'm also pretty much 100% sure that suing the rabbi to rule that the first conversion was valid would never fly. And what are we really saying anyway? Suppose someone seemingly converts completely above-board with Orthodox rabbis, then the day after the conversion immediately drops all observance, starts worshiping idols in the street, and tells everyone that they were lying throughout the conversion and had no intention of ever observing the mitzvot. Regardless of what country we're talking about, do you think it's ever the business of a secular court to enjoin the rabbis involved from saying the conversion shouldn't be considered valid and that the person should not be treated as a Jew?

As an aside, Judaism has its own legal system. If you need to get a ruling about the propriety of a circumcision or the validity of a conversion, you can presumably go to a beit din.

[–]redditsideupThe "bad" in "Chabad" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As an aside, Judaism has its own legal system. If you need to get a ruling about the propriety of a circumcision or the validity of a conversion, you can presumably go to a beit din.

This is good advice

[–]redditsideupThe "bad" in "Chabad" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As an aside, Judaism has its own legal system. If you need to get a ruling about the propriety of a circumcision or the validity of a conversion, you can presumably go to a beit din.

This is good advice

[–]nosorrythatswrong 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Try r/legaladvice

I look forward to that thread.

[–]redditsideupThe "bad" in "Chabad" [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I haven't been following your other thresds, so I don't know your situation. But from what it sounds like, you were converted orthodox as a child, and now as a young adult your jewishNess is being questioned.

Firstly, just know that right now the whole conversion thing is a huge political and religious mess. As far as I'm concerned, all new conversions should be suspended until the rabbis can figure out a system and stick to it. You aren't the only one suffering.

Secondly, from my understanding, (orthodox) conversion of minors is done under two conditions. The first is that the parents will raise and educate their children orthodox, and second that at age 12/13 the child affirms their intention verbally and through action to remain orthodox. If either of those conditions are not met (your flair says conservative...maybe one or both conditions apply to you?) Then the conversion can be considered invalid

[–]KohenleviteConservative[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Put it this way, can a child born with parents signature on birth certificate claim they are no longer the birth parents?