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Its not just "straight cis white men" (self.SRSDiscussion)

yellaperil が 投稿

I don't like the way yall put it like that. No I'm not a straight cis white boy who's offended, I'm a bisexual woman of color.

I'm not trying to deny anyone's struggle but when the topic is about race, trump etc. it's wrong to make it about "white men" because white women made trump happen too. The majority of them voted trump. Most of my racist experiences have been by white women too. I just don't like this because it turns the whole thing into a joke.

No I don't hate white girls, but to include them into the same struggle as PoC and LGBTQ? No thanks. That's way too inclusive for me.

I remember this time when a racist comment was put on SRS I went through their posting history because I've seen the name before and Oh look its a white woman. One who also posted on feminist subs. The same ones I frequented.

The other parts too though. So many gay white men are extremely racist or transphobic. I thought that was a known thing, I've heard from a gay friend that the gay dating scene is so openly racist.

What do yall think?

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[–]minimuminim 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (8子コメント)

What you're expressing is, essentially, the reason why intersectionality is important. So I'd point you at the work of Kimberle Crenshaw, the Black feminist who came up with the term.

It's rad as hell so here is a choice quote. This was written in 1993, by the way.

The problem with identity politics is not that it fails to transcend difference, as some critics charge, but rather the opposite—that it frequently conflates or ignores intragroup differences... ignoring difference within groups contributes to tension among groups, another problem of identity politics that bears on efforts to politicize violence against women. (p. 1242)

You can also read what we've written here on it.

It doesn't turn the whole thing into a joke, per se. But you are correct in pointing out that being a minority does not mean you will develop empathy and be immediately on board with the struggles with all other minorities, since "divide and conquer" very much applies in this instance.

The sentiment you're expressing is not uncommon; there was a hashtag making the rounds on Twitter, for example, that was #FeminismSoWhite and #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen, started by Black feminists on Twitter (IIRC) to express the fact that the form of feminism that has made it to the mainstream focuses almost exclusively on the struggle of white women. Same case for gay cis well-off white men. SAWCSM began here as convenient shorthand for the unmarked, default category of society; we used to swap out the letters in the acronym depending on context (GAWCSM, SAWCSW) but of course unless you already know what all the letters stand for, you won't get it.

(Straight Ablebodied/Affluent White CiS Man.)

[–]Pomguo 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (4子コメント)

People often forget the Affluent part - class is perhaps the oldest of all forms of oppression, and continues to have a devastating impact in basically every country on earth. When a lot of people talk about the evil White Cis Males, they often end up (or were disguising all along) attacking them on lines of class, and so being bigots themselves.

[–]austinlovespie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So well put. I grew up in a predominantly white low-income area. I went away to college and any time I try to defend why uneducated, working-class whites might think the way they do I'm immediately met with aggressive criticism. I think too often the progressive community (or whatever you want to call it) forgets about class (and its effect on each individuals' perspective) when talking about oppression.

Through the perspectives of some of my friends from back home (most of which are working in the mills) liberals are pretentious, affluent, college-educated yuppies who've never struggled a day in their life. While their opinion is far from my own, I can see where a lot of their animosity comes from.

I think, as a group, progressives need to be more empathetic towards the working-class and also start involving class-based oppression (without a racial spin) into the conversation. It would help to not get someone like Trump elected...

[–]minimuminim 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Er, I would say that our current conception of 'affluence' exists within a very specific capitalist framework and is, give or take, maybe three hundred years old. Then you would probably have to swap it out for "Aristocratic".

I just want to be a little wary of any statement that tries to position class as the ur-form of oppression.

[–]Sappow 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It isn't the only form of oppression, but when two different forms crash into each other, it tends to be the one that breaks the other.

I see this in my own groups all the time... eg, for a wealthy gay person, when their wealth and our orientation conflict, is often going to develop a political conciousness around their wealth first and their orientation secondarily. I know the same phenomenon happens along gender and race lines also.

It doesn't make the other forms of oppression not exist or things that will be fixed automatically when you fix wealth and class, and if you fix wealth divergence and classism race and gender discrimination will continue if you didn't also put effort to fix them as well. It just means that when they conflict wealth tends to "win" and tends to be what people make decisions over even if the decisions might be harmful to their other attributes; you can look at the exit polls from november and see the increasing rate of racial minority votes for Trump as wealth increases.

[–]minimuminim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ur-form doesn't mean only. I meant anything that positions class as the be-all and end-all of oppression is not something I would be comfortable agreeing with. (This is not saying I disagree with you, this is me clarifying my own point.)

[–]elduderino260 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for posting this.

[–]SendMeMoreHateMail -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Straight Ablebodied/Affluent White CiS Man

I thought the S stood for sexual.

[–]minimuminim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not in its earliest form as I remember it.

[–]lalaloui22 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think that solidarity between minorities is bullshit. Yeah, it would be nice and fuzzy, but by and large it doesn't really exist. Straight cis white (rich, able etc) men might have the largest amount of privilege, but that doesn't mean anyone lower on the ladder is suddenly a paragon of virtue.

[–]minimuminim 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Solidarity between minorities can be incredibly politically useful, to create large coalitions that can do much more than they would alone and to bring in resources. For example, Standing Rock is a coalition expressing solidarity between minorities in addition to its other aspects.

That is not to say, of course, that those who do not inhabit more than one minority identity don't constantly shit on other, more vulnerable members of the group, because they do. Presence or absence of a minority identity is not a marker of moral distinction.

[–]lalaloui22 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very true, and I wish it were the case more often tbh. Hopefully as intersectionality becomes more mainstream so do actions like Standing Rock. I more meant to say that the fact someone belongs to a certain minority group does not prevent bigotry to other marginalised groups.

[–]revolverzanbolt 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You point out the racism of white women and gay men, but if you're making that argument don't you also have to acknowledge the existence of homophobic and sexist PoC? Every demographic has shitty people, even ones who we feel should have the empathy of oppression to know better.

[–]MistakeNotDotDotDot 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't have a link offhand, but black people voted against marriage equality in California significantly higher than white people (I don't remember what it was for Hispanics, Asians, or other minority groups).

[–]PermanentTempAccount 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is basically a red herring, though; by far the biggest reason Prop 8 ended up going through was aggressive marketing by Mormon interest groups. I remember back when it happened, the sheer number of white queer and trans folk who used that fact to excuse overt racism was completely unconscionable.

[–]Batsy22 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah it's a really dicey line because the whole "PoC are homophobic" idea has been used to marginalize poc. It's true that there are PoC who are homophobic/transphobic but I don't believe they're necessarily more so than whites.

[–]ComradeBoops 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't really spend much time here, but yeah, that does sound like an overly simplistic view of oppressive demographics. Trans people can be racist, PoC voted trump, etc.

[–]gutsch 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. 100%. As a bisexual white woman, I cannot count on my hands (and feet) the number of racist white women I have met who identify as "inclusive feminists". I think it is just easy for social groups to get caught up on a single narrative and to over expose it. We should focus on white privilege as a whole and the issues of xenophobia, elitism, racism, etc, that come with it.

[–]ThinkMinty 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm a cishet white dude, and...you are right. We aren't the only assholes in the room about this stuff.

If people were willing to call anyone out, then the accountability would work better.

[–]eye_of_pie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As the same I agree with that on principle, but I don't feel that all sides need equal volume in that discussion.

[–]ThinkMinty 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It needs to be needs based, not perception based. If someone's being a dick, showing poor content of character, they shouldn't get a pass, period.

but I don't feel that all sides need equal volume in that discussion.

Why not?

[–]orek74 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally, I don't "make it about" any group.

Look, no one is immune, virtually no one has everything easy. These identity categories are more abstractions, than really mean to define any individual people. Everyone's struggle is unique based on where they're situated.

[–]Jasmyne_Nova 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was stunned when I went to a gay party & they were hating on refugees. It was a mild version of talking to a trumpet. I assumed that they would be above vilification & prejudice & I was so very wrong.

Our genes don't make us racist, lack of exposure to other ethnicities gets racism started & racist echo chambers on top of that. I'm not in your position, being a Cis Het White Male (nm the handle, it was a MMO toon name) from across the pacific - but christ Trump running for POTUS scared the living shit outta me on many levels. I was more disgusted with his racist fear mongering, but here in Australia there have been essentially open, Right Wing terrorist talk against refugees by people on facebook with their own names & faces showing. So yeah, scared for ethnic minorities here too now.

[–]MemberNoWhitePeople 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No I don't hate white girls, but to include them into the same struggle as PoC and LGBTQ? No thanks. That's way too inclusive for me.

What do you mean by this? Do you deny the existence of LGBTQ white women? That comment doesn't really make any sense. White women are just as likely to be LGBTQ as any POC.

[–]yellaperil[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean straight, cis white women. shoulda pointef that out

[–]Batsy22 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with your post in spirit. I do think it's super necessary to acknowledge that marginalized people are absolutely capable of oppressing other marginalized groups.

With that said, I do think it's important to include everyone when having broad conversations about social justice. Audrey Lorde once said that there is no hierarchy of oppressions which is a sentiment I think is really important to underline.

Again, I agree with you to a large extent, I'm just cautious of labelling specific groups as too privileged to take up space in conversations in social justice.