Panel, Kathleen Richardson and Kate Devlin

Transcript

MATT WORDSWORTH, PRESENTER: Well, Kathleen Richardson is a senior research fellow in the ethics of robotics at De Montfort University, and the founder of the campaign against sex robots. She joins me from Leicester, England.

And Kate Devlin is a computing lecturer at Goldsmith's University of London which is hosting the International Congress on Love and Sex with Robots next month. She joins me from London.

Dr Richardson, Dr Devlin, thanks so much for your time.

Now, Dr Richardson, can I ask you first - why do you want to ban sex robots?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON, FOUNDER, CAMPAIGN AGAINST SEX ROBOTS: I think we have to understand that what we're actually encouraging with these dolls is more human isolation.

When you're in the presence of an object, you're still alone but there are many people, who are going to tell you that you're no longer alone. That actually you got a companion or a friend or a significant other.

And I want people to think about this. I want people to stop thinking about the word robot and think about the word property and what we're being encouraged to do, is have relationships with property.

So it's really a new level of consumerism that we have entered into now, you don't just buy products on the market because they make you feel great or they can enhance your status, but now you can have a relationship with a product.

And that's basically what these dolls and sex robots are.

MATT WORDSWORTH: And you object to the characterisation of it as buying sex as a service, as you would with prostitution?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Absolutely. I mean the whole idea of women as property is still widespread in our culture and society.

I think the very idea in your news article with the reference to masters because in the kind of slavery system, people were also represented as property.

And actually women today have this really serious issue as being presented as property.

You can do to Holland, and they're in shop windows. You can buy them like you can buy shoes or chocolate.

So while do we live in a world which still considers women as property, then it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to start creating property that looks like women and then encouraging people to have the same sort of relationships.

They're dehumanising and isolating.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Sorry to interrupt you, it's an interesting point but assuming that the human race is going to continue with prostitution with some time, and you say prostitution is exploitation, so then wouldn't it actually reduce the harm by swapping out humans and swapping in robots?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Well, let me put this way: If we were to create a robot that looked like an 18th century slave, there would be horror.

But we can look upon women as the sexualised, these over-sexualised images in pornography and in prostitution and it doesn't raise an eye brow and the reason why it doesn't raise an eyebrow is because people still think, you know, that is socially acceptable - to view women as nothing more than a sexual object.

So if we want to change the world, and change relationships between men and women, we have to start human, we have to start humanising women.

And they're not sexual objects that are for the consumption of primarily males.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Dr Kate Devlin, can I bring you in here because you don't agree with a ban. Why is that?

KATE DEVLIN: No, for a number of reasons but also, I think first of all, this idea, this sex work view is actually a very narrow perspective on the whole field.

And also this emphasis that it's objectifying women. It's a chance for us to sort of readdress that balance because at the moment, the sex robots are made by men and for men and I think that sort of reflects technology as a whole.

Starting now, we can actually try and influence that. Why is there not more equality in what we create.

MATT WORDSWORTH: In what way do you think you can you use sex robots to A), tackle the problem with male-female relations and B) explore other gender options?

KATE DEVLIN: Well, the fact that we do have a tendency as humans to anthropomorphise machines and we attribute them a gender but actually we're creating, we're creating machines that don't have this gender and it's a chance for us to explore what that actually means to us and it's a very controversial topic at the moment.

I think also one of the things is that this could have amazingly good therapeutic benefits.

We've seen things like virtual reality being used to treat issues such as social anxiety. Taking that a step further into a physical realm, sex robots could be a really useful thing.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Yeah, Dr Richardson, I saw a story a couple of years ago on one of our cousin broadcasters, the SBS, with a man with cerebral palsy who visited a sex worker regularly, and the sex worker believed that everyone has a right to sex.

So do you think that sex robots would enable physical intimacy for those unable to find it elsewhere?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: No, because a robot is a product, it's an artefact, it's not alive and you can create it, you know, but you're always going to be alone.

You can decorate an object with as many qualities and properties as you like, but they're not human and I think what is really disturbing is that we are now living in a world where we're starting to think that objects are like persons.

You know, these products are like persons and I think that's great for corporations because they love the idea, if they can sell new kinds of products and engage people. I mean imagine all the downloads and the apps and the replacement parts that you would need, if you could convince people you can have a relationship with a product.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Dr Devlin, I guess the flipside of not having a ban, is that, you know, some pretty dark and disturbing things could happen. Rape fantasies, is that part of a free society or should that not be allowed?

KATE DEVLIN: We will, I think there's a difference between saying all these things will happen and what the actual reality is, which is that a team of people, there's a team of researchers working around the globe to look at things like ethics and AI and this is one of the things that's being considered.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Obviously, you know, if they do become available ..

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Can I just ...

MATT WORDSWORTH: Yeah, sure, Dr Richardson come in.

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Do you mind if I interrupt?

If we look around the world today, let's look at the reality not some far ahead fantasy where men and women are equal.

Let's look at the world today. In the world today, the two main kinds of dolls that you can buy to rub your body against, cause you can't have sex with them, you can only masturbate with them are child dolls and dolls that look like women.

There is not a utopia out there and even if there was, I mean do we really want to accept this idea that it's a good idea to have more prostitution, for example, if we can have more males as prostitutes.

So they're not good ideas. These kinds of ideas come from the worst kind of excesses of our society and to create a better kind of society, we got to free people from these coercive trappings.

MATT WORDSWORTH: How do you make the ban workable though Dr Richardson because presumably if we get to the point technologically where they're part of our day to day lives, labouring or cleaning, don't you think people will just rework them in the way they want them to work?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Well, I think what is happening now. Let's just look at some of the effects of technology because everyone thinks it's going to be liberating and revolutionary, but it's creating more isolation.

The fact of that more young men watch pornography for example, means that clinics now have men at 18 to 25 turning up erectile dysfunction because all they can get aroused by is violent pornography.

When they're with a real person, they can't have an intimate relationship ...

KATE DEVLIN: These are really sweeping statements.

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: So all these sex robots and sex dolls of children are just a continuation of that degrading idea about what it means to be human.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Sorry, Dr Devlin, you want to dive in there?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: We want people to, you know, sex is about mutuality ...

MATT WORDSWORTH: Sorry.

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: ... it's about.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Sorry, Dr Richardson. Dr Devlin, you're keen.

KATE DEVLIN: I don't really understand this ongoing conflation with sex work and sex robots.

I think it's much, much more nuanced than that, and there are a lot of really positive things that can come out of this.

I think also this idea of saying that machines are objects, right now, they are. Right now what we have are just mechanised sex dolls but in the future if we can creating some kind of AI with consciousness, and sentience then that does give some responsibility that we have to have, that does give some kind of rights attached to a machine that can think.

So we will have to consider that.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Dr Devlin, what happens, let's sort of put aside the sexual nature of the robot for one moment. What about the effect on human to human relationships? We're already seeing people retreat into a virtual world just with smartphones and iPads etc?

KATE DEVLIN: Look at the plus side of that. We now have a network globe, where we can talk to loved ones on the other side of the planet. We're seeing a lot of social changes, social benefit through things like smart phones.

It's not all bad. Sure, every time a new technology emerges, we get some kind of dystopian vision but there are benefits to this as well.

MATT WORDSWORTH: And Dr Richardson, putting the sex side away, what about if you used the robot in a different way, for instance, to get out some frustration at the end of the day, you can box with it, you can hit it, some sort of violence.

Would that trouble you?

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: If it was just a matter of, you know, a masturbatory tool, which is actually all these objects are, then there wouldn't be a problem.

There are all kinds of devices on the market that you can buy to achieve orgasms, their purpose is for that.

But you got to ask the question, why are they shaped like fully formed human females or children, and you can buy these sex dolls for as young as three years old and I'm sure baby sex dolls will be on the market soon.

But why are they shaped like that? Because in the mind of the user, no, in the mind of the user, they're giving them the experience that they actually raping a child, that they're actually having sex with a woman.

And even these models, these dolls, are modelled from like pornographic representations of women. They're not even women who are real. They're modified through cosmetic surgery and practices.

So the whole landscape of this technology is absolutely unethical and we should really pay serious attention to its development.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Dr Devlin.

KATE DEVLIN: Two things. The first is that the child sex doll, there's actually been people being prosecuted for owning child sex dolls. This is against the law.

It's happened, there's been a prosecution I believe in the US or in Canada. '

And secondly, it's been suggested that certainly, technology can be used to treat things like sex offences and paedophilia.

For example, VR has been used, virtual reality has been used to check whether or not sex offenders are likely to reoffend by putting them in a virtual environment.

There is a possibility for therapy for this as well.

MATT WORDSWORTH: Okay, well, unfortunately we are out of time but Dr Kathleen Richardson ...

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Well, can I ...

MATT WORDSWORTH: Sorry, Kathleen, you wanted to dive in there, but we are out of time.

I really appreciate you coming on Lateline.

KATE DEVLIN: Thank you.

KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Okay, thanks very much.

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