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Manxiety needs Fempathy (theguardian.com)

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[–]BigAngryDinosaur[M] 44ポイント45ポイント  (33子コメント)

OP didn't make a top-level comment to get the ball rolling, so I'll make one myself. Unfortunately OP doesn't get the complementary crockpot because of this.

This article makes the point that some of what some people call "mansplaining" is simply men being overly detailed and enthusiastic about the things they're passionate about, even if that passion is simply for explaining things.

This doesn't mean that there isn't a tendency for some men to talk down to women, but it raises a good point about social grace.

Where do you draw the line between teaching someone who is interested in a topic, and treating someone like a child? Do you get different reactions when you talk in this capacity to men instead of women? Do you get annoyed by friends who talk down to you as a fellow man, and have you ever thought of the "mansplaining" phenomena as a product of guys who may not be able to tell when their conversation partner would rather gnaw their own leg off to escape than be subjected to any more excruciating details about exactly why exactly the Empire needed trash compactors on their ships when their garbage was just ejected into space anyway? (Also an acceptable topic of discussion for this post BTW.)

[–]beldaran1224 45ポイント46ポイント  (26子コメント)

As a woman, I've found this varies greatly from one man to the next (shocker!). My father absolutely love being right and always gives you the sense that enjoys when you're wrong. My bf's father is always sure of himself and incredibly nosy and condescending - a bad combo. Of course, he's often wrong...

My bf is actually really cool on this front. He enjoys explaining things he's interested in, and manages to do it without making anyone feel stupid or trying to prove them wrong. Of course, I'm an insufferable know-it-all, so when I am wrong, he loves to rub it in :)

But outside of the men I'm closest to, I have met more than a few who actively believe they know more than me by virtue of being a man. Especially in any traditionally "male" arena, like anything remotely related to tech or science. The men on my mother's side are almost all like this.

So, in my experience, plenty of men aren't condescending. Some are condescending to anyone and maybe a few more than that are only condescending to women.

[–]CorvidaeSF 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seconded. I worked with a guy who loved explaining things he was passionate about, but everything about him--his demeanor, his tone, his choices of words and sentence construction--made it clear he didn't think less of you for not knowing about it, or think you were dumb, he was just really passionate about it. He was also happy to accept input and questions from people and build on them into a conversation, rather than simply lecturing on.

[–]beldaran1224 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. There are plenty of men like that (though I wholeheartedly wish more people were). That very thing is a lot of what I find so attractive about my SO - he's passionate and interesting and not afraid to show, whether it's his interest in "male" things like computers and the outdoors, or more "female" things like cute animals and cooking (at home). I love that if and when we have children, he will be a great role model of how we shouldn't care about gender roles and stereotypes. I find it incredibly sexy that he has this confidence in who he truly is and refuses to stop being that because of stupid rules.

Ok, I'll stop now. I'm a little head over heels, lol.

[–]BodyMassageMachineGo 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

I have met more than a few who actively believe they know more than me by virtue of being a man.

How do you know this? I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just curious as to how you know.

[–]beldaran1224 45ポイント46ポイント  (11子コメント)

They say so. No kidding. They will say things like:

Men just get these things.

Men are just better at X.

But contextually, they often say it indirectly. So when I talk to my grandfather about the new modem we just got, he will, no kidding, ask if my bf has set it up already. Not if we've set it up already, but if he has. If I mention an issue with my computer to my uncle, he will suggest my bf look at it. Keep in mind that my uncle and I have often talked computers and he has every reason to believe me competent in minor to moderate troubleshooting. I've never had a problem with my computer that I didn't fix myself. He has never actually met my bf and is only peripherally aware that he's also into computers.

Whenever I mention traditionally male activities or areas, most people I've met (often including women) will assume that my father/bf/husband/whoever I know that's male took care of the issue or at least, taught me what I know.

Generally, strangers or acqaintances do this more often than people I know well, but my incredibly sexist family members do it as well.

The worst, and the part where I'll say something instead of just ending the conversation, is when I make a call to customer service and they will quite literally ask to speak to the man of the house. HP did this a couple times. My laptop screen had a hard impact and no longer displayed properly. I had explained, in detail, all of the normal troubleshooting steps I had taken - I even explained that hooking it up to a secondary monitor restored the display. The man on the phone then asked to speak to the man of the house.

[–]BodyMassageMachineGo 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

Jesus.

[–]beldaran1224 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah. In my experience, even men who are generally sympathetic to feminism and gender equality don't really notice all the subtle ways in which women are treated differently. But then, I don't always notice all the subtle ways in which men are treated, either.

I honestly believe that this is why so many men say things like "not all men" or that women are paranoid for feeling unsafe in public. I don't think they're really aware of all the little things that women experience.

Growing up, you begin to notice how that one small statement made you feel uncomfortable, but it seems so innocuous or common that you brush it off. But over time, you start to realize that a lot of men say/so those little things that just kind of leave you feeling unsettled. Like the first time a random guy on the street tells you to smile or asks if you have a boyfriend. They aren't even interested in you, but they ask. Or they asl if you need help with thay when there's really no reason to. And once you really start to ask why it made you uncomfortable, you start using words like "demeaning", "condescending", "creepy", "entitled", etc. Because it wasn't that that one thing was so wrong it's that you don't see those same things directed at men or that those things are so utterly ubiquitous. It's all of them, taken together that create a problem, not any one single incident (usually).

I've gone a bit far afield. And I'm also in a sub with men who are generally already pretty aware of these things. I guess it just gets very frustrating on a day to day basis to feel like your competence is constantly undermined.

[–]BodyMassageMachineGo 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I was expecting it to be more subtle than that, like you would point out stuff i would never have noticed.

But I would have noticed that.

[–]beldaran1224 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

You know what is really subtle?

Have you ever thought about all the ways we categorize things by gender, even when completely unrelated to gender?

Colors. Books. Decor styles. Vocabulary. Cars. Toys. Sports. All of it. Almost every concept or object in our society carries gendered connotations.

Children absorb all of these miniscule little things and begin to conform into those expectations. It's not like mommy tells her daughter that girls like horses and she should too. But the books that mommy reads to her daughter are about horses and princes and the like. And the girls' toys (and many stores actually have explicitly gendered toy sections, remember that stink with Target?) are all things like dolls and kitchen sets and stuffed animals. The boys' have army men and superheroes and nerf guns.

It gets even more insidious. Once you find out the gender of your unborn child, people begin sending you outfits and blankets and toys - all gendered, usually. Girls get pink and boys get blue. Girls get pastels and boys get earth tones. So then we design book covers and toy packaging and other color schemes to appeal to that. The little boy notices that all the little girls have pink clothes, but none of the little boys do, so he begins to associate the color with girls.

These are seemingly inconsequential things which absolutely effect all of us as children. Boys and Girls see mom cooking dinner and vacuuming while dad nows the lawn. Mom helps with homework while dad roughhouses. Mom is the one who disciplines the day to day stuff (so that she becomes associated with nagging) and dad takes care of the really serious stuff (wait until dad gets home, so that he becomes the final arbiter of any truly important matter). Even in households where both work, things still break down into these lines more often than not. So men are told they have to be decisive and stern and women are told to be nurturing and domestic.

You may have heard these things before, but do you really notice them in your daily life? When is the last time you saw dad at the grocery store with the kid? You'll see 20 women with kids there for every man you'll see. Men buy beer and women buy wine. Men buy meats and women buy vegetables. I see it every day. If they're together, the man almost always pays, even if it's joint money.

Just because you've heard it before doesn't mean it isn't subtle.

[–]satansfloorbuffer 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

My husband and I make art dolls, and it surprised and saddened me when we first started vending and found out the degree to which young girls needed to be told that it was okay for them to like a toy. We use a very wide color palette, but time and time again, little girls would ask why we don't make more 'girl' ones- as in, purple and pink. The thing is, I write biographies for all our dolls, and almost half of them have female identities- they just don't necessarily have girl-coded colors, and some of our male or gender-ambiguous ones do. Five years old, and they've already unconsciously absorbed limitations on what they're allowed to like.

[–]beldaran1224 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This makes me sad, but it definitely bears out my own experience working in retail.

[–]DariusWolfe 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You make some seriously excellent points in this comment. I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say so.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

HP did this a couple times.

That would be grounds to talk to a manager. If I had an employee behave this way they would be taken out back and flogged in front of the villagers.

[–]beldaran1224 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh yeah. Like I said, I actually said something there and ended up escalating it (they threw in a $60 controller for free for the trouble). I didn't even call for troubleshooting, I called to redeem my extended warranty. That was clearly a bad apple, and my other experiences with HP were spectacular.

My point was less about the customer service and more about the fact that I've encountered this type of thing in most social circumstances.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's great, I'm glad they at least recognized the error and inappropriateness. (It's also good to talk about how we handle and resolve situations like this, I believe it creates a positive atmosphere where people of any gender can be reminded that they have voice and power.)

[–]beldaran1224 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. I think one of the biggest problems in moving forward with gender inequality is that both sides are kind of on the defensive. Men are often told that their gender concerns don't matter because they're not as bad or as prevalent or whatever. Women are often told that they're being too sensitive or that we've already dealt with it and they should drop it. It really dead ends any kind of discussion or sense of empathy for the "other".

Both sides need to listen more to the other and try to understand the subtleties, because that's a lot of what we're fighting against now. Sure, there are some really obvious instances of sexism that still occur, but society has become increasingly adept at dealing with those appropriately. The issue is increasingly with the smaller more day-to-day issues that underpin the larger ones.

[–]angels_fan 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

Almost every woman in my life seems absolutely disinterested in anything that doesn't involve Hollywood gossip and literature. Which is fine... But I can't figure out why they don't branch out more.

I love learning about everything. I usually go to sleep watching some kind of documentary on something while my wife scrolls through Instagram for the 900th time that day.

Unfortunately, this has jaded me and I sometimes find myself mansplaining to a very intelligent woman. I do believe it's a problem, and it's something I'm really trying to work on.

[–]beldaran1224 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think it's much the same reason that many men feel like they can't be interested in celebrity gossip or clothes: society tells them. Society tells women to be interested in people and relationships and the home. So even when they have other interests, they still end up involved in all of those things. Men are told to be interested in actions, objects and achievement. So they gravitate towards those things. Both sides feel pressure against branching out or feel like they can't be both. Take "tomboys" for instance. Society has somewhat accepted the idea that a woman may be interested in "male" things, but it doesn't really accept that she might like "female" things too. She can like basketball and wear pants and hang with the boys. Or she can gossip with the girls and wear skirts. Society doesn't create room for the middle ground.

The same applies to men, though I believe it can be even more toxic, thanks to homophobia. Unfortunately, society sends the message that boys can be either interested in male things and thus straight or interested in female things and thus gay. It then condemns gays.

Growing up, I was a tomboy who constantly talked about how boys were gross and how much I hated skirts. As I got older, I started to feel constrained by this. I felt uncomfortable admitting that I liked boys and girly things like cute animals and books and cooking - but I also liked computers and science and logic. I felt like I was betraying my independence by admitting to liking girly things. Thankfully, I had a number of positive experiences that eventually helped me come to terms with my femininity without giving up on all those other things I loved.

I honestly believe that many boys go through the same struggle, feeling caught by society's standards into being one way or the other.

Edit: I want to add that, speaking specifically to your experience, intellectual pursuits are seen as a male activity, whereas reading novels a female one - especially the "right" novels. Many types of books - most of nonfiction, sci-fi, etc are considered the domain of the man, most others are considered female. It really is amazing just how gendered every single aspect of our society is.

[–]angels_fan -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

While I generally agree with your point, I still believe that there is some kind of gender difference at work here.

I'm not one to throw around gender differences lightly, but in my limited experience, this does seem to be one of them.

I don't think that men like to do "man things" and women do "women things" because society has taught them that. I think men like men things and women like women things.

Of course, there will always be some grey area, and outliers in either gender, but as an overall idea, I think it's pretty true.

I have no interest in Hollywood gossip because I have no interest in it. Not because society taught me not to have interest. However, I have a great love for musicals, and find myself very interested in them, despite society telling me it's gay.

[–]beldaran1224 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you're missing something here, something that I touched on in another response just now.

None of those things actually have anything gendered about them. We, as a society, assign gender to those things. In Spanish and other languages, those things are actually explicitly gendered. In English, it's mostly connotations. When I say sci-fi, there's a really good chance you'll associate it with men in some way. Maybe you see a man with a Trekkie shirt in your mind. Maybe you think of computers and science and then of men. I don't know what path your brain takes. But it almost certainly ends up at the concept of "man".

So look at psychology. We've found evidence that men are better at spatial reasoning, for instance. But we've also found incredible ways in which things like language shape the entire way we process things - it often shapes our neural pathways. So maybe what we're really finding is that men are better at spatial reasoning because all of the related concepts are gendered for men.

The brain is an incredibly complex thing, and I think we often underestimate what part nurture plays in its operation. We've seen remarkable evidence of just how big a role our upbringing plays in our brain functions, and I believe this is crucial to the phenomena you're describing.

We shape everything around our language and our language has a gender for everything.

[–]angels_fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I totally know what you're saying. I constantly fall prey to my pre conceived notion that women don't know anything about cars. When I call a mechanic and a woman answers, my immediate reaction is that she's the secretary and to ask for a mechanic. This has gotten me in trouble a couple of times as the woman IS the mechanic.

I'm guessing it's similar for male nurses. That they would constantly be assumed to be the doctor and have to correct for that gender assignment in our brains.

It's definitely something I try and be aware of and I'm trying to re-train those neural pathways to not immediately jump to those conclusions. But, the pathways run deep and it takes constant vigilance to stay on top of it.

[–]beldaran1224 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely! The fact that we've crafted a separate name for things like male nurses is pretty telling. Even though we don't explicitly assign gender the way Spanish does, we do it implicitly. And the instinct is so strong we feel we need another word to describe male nurses and the like.

[–]pixel_pepper 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

Maybe they don't like being talked down to by well-meaning men and so they don't announce their interest in male dominated subjects?

[–]angels_fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

These aren't just acquaintances, but those closest to me. I would think I'd know their interest.

However, assuming what you said is true, isn't that just as sexist of women to just automatically assume that a man will talk down to them?

[–]beldaran1224 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

I actually don't believe that this is what happens with your wife, so take that into account.

Have you done that to them? I don't assume men will, but they often do really early in an interaction. From that point on, I have good reason to believe they will continue to do so.

But you've made a rather similar assumption yourself, haven't you? You've assumed that women with other interests are outliers. You actually used that term. Perhaps you're just falling prey to confirmation bias. Perhaps you expect to see women interested in these things, so you assume they are until they show otherwise - which they only do when you get to know them better. Are you attracted to more traditionally feminine women? If so, then you're self selecting for women that adhere to this stereotype.

[–]angels_fan 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Entirely possible that I'm falling prey to my own confirmation biases.

As a skeptic, I do try to be aware of my biases, but nobody can completely eliminate them.

And I'm not even talking about romantic women. My sisters, mother, co workers, etc. are the ones that I'm closest with. But, you do raise a good point. Why don't I have more female friends that are considered more masculine by societies standards. I don't have a good answer for that.

[–]beldaran1224 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Again, I don't know your life and you may have something different going on, but those are just some general things I thought could apply.

[–]zvronsnifsky[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

My explanation couldn't have been anywhere near as good as this. Thanks.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was a really nice crockpot too, sorry you missed out.

[–]ElizaRei 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't get the discussion at all and it's only a discussion because people let the definition of mansplaining loose. Pretty much every definition in the various vocabularies contain the words "condescending" and "patronizing". Those are also clearly defined attitudes towards other people. Someone being enthusiastic or unaware of the others reaction usually isn't either of those.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some men are specifically condescending towards women in particular with the assumption that things have to be explained in greater detail. That's really all it's about, but with the internet and explosion of connectivity, enough people have come together and "compared notes" and have realized it's a real phenomenon that exists separately from people who are just generally condescending, but like with most things in real life versus the internet, there's multiple angles to the issue. That's what this particular discussion and article are related to, the different ways of looking at the issue.

[–]DariusWolfe 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seems to me that the article isn't necessarily trying to redefine mansplaining, but to offer the idea that a lot of instances of perceived mansplaining may not, in fact, adhere to those definitions at all.

[–]ElizaRei 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree the term is misused a lot, that was kinda the point I was making. I guess my frustration comes from the reality that feminist terms like mansplaining or privilege get watered down more and more until it doesn't mean anything, at which point they become an easy target for critics. If even a feminist sub can't get it right, how can we expect others?

[–]Zenning2 38ポイント39ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the issue here is the assumption that men speak this way to other men as much as they speak that way to women. I think we as men end up making more assumptions about women's competency in certain topics that we don't make towards other men which would likely explain why, while it's true that men do talk this way to other men, it seems like a more gender specific phenomenon where women are spoken down to despite likely having that competence.

I do however think that the term can be used as a silencing tactic, and that's very frustrating. I think the phenomenon is definitely real, but it's very difficult to point to a specific instance of it happening and saying "that's mansplaining", which is actually very insidious, sort of like how black people are more likely to be pulled over, even for good reasons. Still, I've only expierenced one person who used it as an attack on somebodies character, and that person was an incredibly toxic person, so I wonder if claiming its used to silence people is actually valid, even if it is possible to use it to do so.

[–]cyrux 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

And the second, which followed soon after, is that the majority of calls to the hotline have been from men: anxious, self-doubting men, asking exactly what mansplaining is and how to avoid doing it.

Sadly, this seems to be untrue. I briefly looked into it, and can't find any source saying the majority of callers are men, and it actually seems men calling the helpline are split between some calling to complain about the helpline existing, and some calling to learn more about how to avoid mansplaining. Which sounds more realistic when you think about it.

I like the author's conciliatory and cooperating message. Doubtless malicious and demeaning examples of mansplaining exist, but the term was quickly seized upon and massively overused to the point that I can't take it seriously anymore.

[–]angels_fan 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

It means a lot to your poor old dad, uncle, colleague, husband or friend to offer his advice and insights. Sitting there, mug or glass clutched eagerly in hand, looking forward to holding forth… how much do you really want to see him quiet and disappointed, confronting his own limitations? How much do you want to shout: “Nobody gives a shit, Granddad! You pompous old bore! Let’s talk about me!”? How much are you actually reduced if you let him feel listened to?

This actually spoke to me, and how right it is!

Maybe men just want to be listened to?

We are constantly bombarded with cutesy little memes about how a woman says 900:1 words compared to men.

[–]SlowFoodCannibal 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

As best we can tell based on aggregates of multiple studies, women do not talk more than men. http://www.livescience.com/7420-men-talk-women.html

[–]cyrux 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

A good point, but I think there may still be something to the notion that men want to be listened to in this fashion for emotional reasons, probably unknown to men themselves.

[–]SlowFoodCannibal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess I'm struggling with the part of this post that implies that we should give men some special consideration in listening because if we don't, we're not being nice. It reinforces the cultural pressure on women to "play dumb" and build up the "fragile male ego" by pretending they are impressing us.

Everyone deserves to be listened to and I always try to listen politely when someone is speaking, even if I already know what they're trying to tell me. But I'm not really down with giving special consideration to this just because someone's a man.

And I felt it was important to share scientific data contradicting the stereotype that women talk more than men.

[–]ozzagahwihung 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

While I think it's ridiculous to make up new words like this, particularly gendered words (Fempathy ? Really?), it is refreshing to see someone calling out the word "mansplaining" for the sexist and derogatory term that it is.

[–]Rktdebil 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Totally. We don't need another word for someone who's rude.

[–]steveire 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's not just a word for calling someone rude.

It's a word which says 'you are being condescending in talking to me and I am accusing you of reserving that manner only for women (you sexist pig)'. However it wraps that accusation up in a funny-sounding word instead of spelling out the derogatory accusation, making it insidious.

[–]RebornPastafarian 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, condescending.

Mansplaining was great until some women started using it to describe male classmates giving presentations in class. This is not a hypothetical, it is something I've seen complained about on trollx. And no, I don't mean they were complaining about that being labeled mansplaining, they were complaining about a male classmate giving a presentation.

Mansplaining has lost its meaning and is now a blanket term used to describe something poor feminists dislike.

[–]miroku000 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But in practice it means "you are being condescending towards me and based on my own sexist preconceived notions I am going to pretend it is because you are sexist and thus I am going to use a gender specific word to demean you because it will act as a form of virtue signaling to my blog readers."