NeoGAF

I dont give to much attention, if any, to that.

It is all fiction. It is also unreasonable to expect the kind of impartiality you are suggesting OP.

I don't agree that politics should be kept away from games, as art is inherently political.

But yes, Call of Duty et al do indeed 'bother' me.

The silent glorification and centering of the US as a country and culture along with almost complete invisibility of the rest of the world is pretty annoying in the long run, yes.

The violence as the only conflict resolution can also be a bit excessive when it's basically everywhere in mainstream games spaces.

I think taking out politics or anything of the matter of games wouldn't really help with anything, in fact, it would just take away elements you could use.

Originally Posted by CrazyHorse

I feel that games should keep away from politics and such controversies. Western devs should not take sides.

they are taking sides already and have been doing so for the last 30-40 years of commercial entertainment.

The only reason you think they're not already political is because they've made their Western politics/ideology so common that it's become invisible to you and others.

I feel that games should keep away from politics and such controversies. Western devs should not take sides.

Okay, so what kind of conflicts do you want to play in realistic/semi-realistic action games?

I think it's fine if it's intentional. Games are an expressive work and that includes political views, that doesn't mean we should criticize those views if they're morally bankrupt, but it's 'ok' within reasonable limits (aka not "morally bankrupt) to express those views and receive feedback from the rest of the world.

If views are expressed unintentionally, this can be good or very bad. It still shows a bit of negligence on the part of the creator even if it led to a positive result (such as "The Jungle"). It should be noted and avoided as best the creators can.

Originally Posted by purseowner

I don't agree that politics should be kept away from games, as art is inherently political.

But yes, Call of Duty et al do indeed 'bother' me.

This is my position as well.

propaganda doesnt bother me if it has a good groove Beyond good and Evil "Propaganda"

Originally Posted by purseowner

I don't agree that politics should be kept away from games, as art is inherently political.

But yes, Call of Duty et al do indeed 'bother' me.

I agree with this sentiment, art is a reflection of the times it was created in, and the artists interpretation of it.

If games want to be taken seriously as an art form, they shouldn't stray away from such things just because it might rustle some jimmies.

This article is also relevant here before someone comes in and say "keep my politics out of my games"

Man Just Wants To Play Violent Military Shooter About Global Conflict Without Critics “Bringing Politics Into It”

Gamer Caleb Pearson, 23, has today expressed his mounting dissatisfaction with the level of critical analysis being applied to video games by suggesting that people should just “keep politics out of it”.

Pearson was enjoying a quiet game of Battlefield — where players form into teams representing global military powers and fight for land and resources using advanced weaponry and vehicles created by multi-billion dollar global mega-corporations — when he spoke to us, and explained that these “so-called critics” were “looking for stuff that just isn’t there”.

“Where is the politics in a game like this?” asked Pearson, gesticulating wildly at the screen as he gunned down a Chinese soldier and snatched his dog tags. “What’s ‘political‘ about that?”

Pearson later rage-quit the game and went to relax on his couch in front of Grand Theft Auto, where he drove around taking part in violent, racially-motivated gang warefare and ran over some prostitutes in an extremely non-political manner.

“I just want to enjoy my game, you know?” lamented Pearson. “When some with a ‘gender studies degree’ comes up to me and says ‘wow, this game really hates women,’ it’s like… it’s just a game, bitch!”

“Can’t they understand that? How fucking hard is that to figure out? Not everything has to be analysed. If Grand Theft Auto gives me a quest that rewards me for killing feminists, well, it’s like, whatever, right? Stop over-thinking it.”

Up next on Pearson’s play list is Assassin’s Creed Syndicate, a game where two trained killers overthrow state infrastructure and assassinate rich capitalists, installing their own operations to maximise personal profits.

Pearson says he “can’t wait to see what those over-sensitive hipsters think of this one”!

http://www.pointandclickbait.com/201...s-here-thanks/

Campster did a more serious take on the same topic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tdztHiyiE

Originally Posted by Lime

they are taking sides already and have been doing so for the last 30-40 years of commercial entertainment.

The only reason you think they're not already political is because they've made their Western politics/ideology so common that it's become invisible to you and others.

Great post!

All art is political. Even "not taking a side" is taking a side, because it's an inherently conservative argument in favor of the status quo.

I just wish more games had a little bit of self-awareness here. Many of them do, but then you play something like the Division and it's just bizarrely tone-deaf.

Originally Posted by purseowner

I don't agree that politics should be kept away from games, as art is inherently political.

But yes, Call of Duty et al do indeed 'bother' me.

Originally Posted by ekgrey

This is my position as well.

I find it interesting that despite treading very carefully around the issue ("are they the good Russians or the bad Russians", COD4, antagonist in MW2 being actually from the US) that the general impression the games give are MURRICA YEAH HOOAH

I don't mind it. I even enjoy it a lot in certain games like Wolfenstein the New Order. Putting Nazis on the moon! I'm coming you Nazi spaceman!

Originally Posted by Falk

I find it interesting that despite treading very carefully around the issue ("are they the good Russians or the bad Russians", COD4, antagonist in MW2 being actually from the US) that the general impression the games give are MURRICA YEAH HOOAH

I'm not in any way calling the games unintelligent or reducing them to the stereotype you cite.

My issues with CoD are way broader and more multitudinous than that.

To be honest half the time I don't really notice any politics, per se. I do remember around the time MW2 or MW3 came out and people started to talk about how it was always Middle Eastern Terrorists or Russians etc who were the bad guys. I don't know if it bothered me so much but I did question it.

I don't think "Western Devs", as you put it, are so much taking sides but more using fiction they grew up with/the culture they grew up with, as inspiration. Then again that is taking sides in a way.

I always felt like it'd be interesting to have a more multicultural cast either as the heroes or villains...I think Call of Duty would never really paint the US as villains but something more nuanced with shades of grey would be interesting. CoD feels a little too much like "America, Fuck Yeah!" to have them be the villains...it'd always be corruption or some shadowy cabal in the government rather than a more blanket villainy. I know the villain in MW2 was American (I think?) but it felt like a relative rarity.

Actually didn't Advanced Warfare have an american corporation as the bad guys? Not sure.

Those stories or elements will always feature in some games unless an AAA studio decides to take a huge risk or an Indie dev does it.

Originally Posted by Kyougar

propaganda doesnt bother me if it has a good groove Beyond good and Evil "Propaganda"

you win

Depends what you understand as propaganda. The old "US vs Evil" trope is more than tired, yes. So the games themselves being propaganda is rather negative most of the time, but propaganda itself could be an interesting theme within a game, such as a WW2 game where you play as a young brainwashed german soldier who then more and more realizes what's really going on etc

Originally Posted by purseowner

I don't agree that politics should be kept away from games, as art is inherently political.

But yes, Call of Duty et al do indeed 'bother' me.

I don't get this; which Call of Duty games are propaganda? I do believe they can dip into it at times, particularly egregious Modern Warfare 3, but generally they all keep the theme of "war is absolute shit and people can sometimes do awful desperate shit in those circumstances". Granted the older games were the classic "us vs. the Germans" stories, but even then it wasn't shown to be like a great thing.

True, it still has to be "fun", so there's a lot that may seem like it's at conflict with it's own message, but I've never gotten the idea that it's pro-war or pro-American.

I prefer it in mocking Fallout form.

A IS FOR AMERICA!
B IS FOR BOMB!
C IS FOR COMMIE!
D IS FOR DIRTY COMMIE!

I dont think politics in games is bad. I love it. Even in fantasy worlds where political turmoil can be analogous to real world stuff

Originally Posted by Dalibor68

Depends what you understand as propaganda. The old "US vs Evil" trope is more than tired, yes. So the games themselves being propaganda is rather negative most of the time, but propaganda itself could be an interesting theme within a game, such as a WW2 game where you play as a young brainwashed german soldier who then more and more realizes what's really going on etc

what if instead of a german soldier you were a bee man

Originally Posted by purseowner

I'm not in any way calling the games unintelligent or reducing them to the stereotype you cite.

My issues with CoD are way broader and more multitudinous than that.

Sorry, I was stating my own opinion.

I find the CoD series as a whole after 1 and 2 pretty MURRICA HOO YEAH

Even with Captain Price.

Originally Posted by Falk

Sorry, I was stating my own opinion.

I find the CoD series as a whole after 1 and 2 pretty MURRICA HOO YEAH

Even with Captain Price.

Aah, I misread your initial post and thought you were reading that as my argument.

I don't disagree with you though.

Originally Posted by Dalibor68

Depends what you understand as propaganda. The old "US vs Evil" trope is more than tired, yes. So the games themselves being propaganda is rather negative most of the time, but propaganda itself could be an interesting theme within a game, such as a WW2 game where you play as a young brainwashed german soldier who then more and more realizes what's really going on etc

Isn't that the exact same 'US vs Evil' trope, just with you fighting on the side of evil? I'm not sure World War 2 is really the place to subvert the trope, to be honest.

I like it if it has sense in the style of the game.

Originally Posted by Bony Manifesto

Isn't that the exact same 'US vs Evil' trope, just with you fighting on the side of evil? I'm not sure World War 2 is really the place to subvert the trope, to be honest.

It doesn't mean spend 30min with your other german soldiers, then join the resistance and go back to massacring 5000 nazis. It could be show an average german soldier fighting in stalingrad with no glorification who then becomes a POW and has to escape or something similar. Not everything has to be "shoot/stab/punch to death ten thousand badguys"

Originally Posted by Dalibor68

Depends what you understand as propaganda. The old "US vs Evil" trope is more than tired, yes. So the games themselves being propaganda is rather negative most of the time, but propaganda itself could be an interesting theme within a game, such as a WW2 game where you play as a young brainwashed german soldier who then more and more realizes what's really going on etc

Interesting , but too obvious. How about the same scenario but you're a western soldier in, for example, Iraq?

Originally Posted by Dalibor68

It doesn't mean spend 30min with your other german soldiers, then join the resistance and go back to massacring 5000 nazis. It could be show an average german soldier fighting in stalingrad with no glorification who then becomes a POW and has to escape or something similar. Not everything has to be "shoot/stab/punch to death ten thousand badguys"

Setting it entirely in the Eastern Front is a bit of a cop-out though, as we know that the only nation more villainous from an American perspective than Nazi Germany is Communist Russia.

I still think you'd struggle to provide a motivation for the player wanting this German Soldier to escape from a work camp though, even if you've established that he doesn't have US blood on his hands and he doesn't buy into the Nazi ideology. Though at that point what's the point of him even being German at all - he'd just be a stand-in for the archetypal American hero. Though I suppose that's exactly what they did with the Tom Cruise vehicle Valkyrie - I don't think you could cast anyone less convincing as a Nazi officer than him!

Sorry, what were we talking about again?

The pro-american-miltary propaganda of a lot of shooters bothered me to such an extent that I stopped playing any shooter featuring the american military years ago.

Shame, as I used to like Battlefield's multiplayer, but overall I feel better off.

Can't stand american military culture. As a non-american it gets my hackles right up.

Thank goodness MGSV featured PMCs, lol.

Originally Posted by Griss

The pro-american-miltary propaganda of a lot of shooters bothered me to such an extent that I stopped playing any shooter featuring the american military years ago.

Shame, as I used to like Battlefield's multiplayer, but overall I feel better off.

Can't stand american military culture. As a non-american it gets my hackles right up.

Thank goodness MGSV featured PMCs, lol.

I'd extend this to pro-military propaganda in general, personally.

Originally Posted by Griss

The pro-american-miltary propaganda of a lot of shooters bothered me to such an extent that I stopped playing any shooter featuring the american military years ago.

Shame, as I used to like Battlefield's multiplayer, but overall I feel better off.

Can't stand american military culture. As a non-american it gets my hackles right up.

Thank goodness MGSV featured PMCs, lol.

play spec ops the line if you haven't

Lol at the not having politics in it. It's already is my dear friend. It's just that people notice it when it clashes with their own ideals about what's right and wrong.

Also read that link Lime posted. I'm just laughing at the

It's just a game, bitch!”

I can't even get mad. That is a real scenario that is beyond stupid. It's putting that 'person' in a museum just so people can associate a face with "Stupid".

Originally Posted by Faustek

Lol at the not having politics in it. It's already is my dear friend. It's just that people notice it when it clashes with their own ideals about what's right and wrong.

Also read that link Lime posted. I'm just laughing at the



I can't even get mad. That is a real scenario that is beyond stupid. It's putting that 'person' in a museum just so people can associate a face with "Stupid".

point and clickbait is a joke news site

Quote colour does not work on mobile again? :(

Originally Posted by aeolist

point and clickbait is a joke news site

Ergo the 'person'.

Doesn't botherme but if i can play both parties i take the commies, KIROV REPORTING

The problem is that if CoD was even skeptical about america Fox News would make it a major controversy about how modern games are brainwashing the new generation to the liberal agenda and teaching them that the military is evil

Bad stories bother me of which games have far more of then they should.
That said I generally dislike any games story where the baddies are given no credence for existing except to be the things that get in your way. Military based games tend to do this a lot. And they tend to be far closer to propaganda because of it.

Yes, but only if it's ruthless and unending advertisements for Capitalism.

Not really because it's usually so comical and caricatured, though I don't doubt that it may reinforce stereotypes for some.

Plus, tensions between America and Russia/China/NK/etc. are real things and it would be kind of odd if art just ignored that. I think there will always be room for subversion of these tropes, but you'd see way too much pushback for something to be economically feasible when playing a western-developed shooter where you invade the US as Russian elite.

Unless the content is particularly insidious, not really.

Expecting a military shooter to be particularly critical of the systems of the military seems like expecting a open world crime game that shows how nasty criminals can be. If anything, Call of Duty is surprisingly thoughtful with it's subject matter (more than most movies or books about the subject matter have been, at least) with it's recurring theme of "This wouldn't have been a problem in the first place if some piece of shit with a a lot of authority on our side hadn't decided to be a piece of shit"

Like, compare the story of Modern Warfare, where you portray soldier dudes who are constantly being screwed over by bad decisions and sometimes outright betrayed at almost every turn, or Black Ops 2 where the bad guy is a threat stemming from short sighted shittiness on the part of the "good guys", to something like any given Uncharted where you're a guy who's whiter than a Mayo Sandwich with a crew of hip urbane Friends cast members who waltzes around the globe with impunity, stealing shit killing people by the busload.

Originally Posted by CrazyHorse

I feel that games should keep away from politics and such controversies. Western devs should not take sides.

Then why make games at all? Go ahead and tie everyone's hands behind their backs.

Originally Posted by Hexa

I mean, they have to take a side if their plot is based on the real world. And personally, I would much prefer that the focus be kept on America/NATO as the good guys.

isn't "this country/military alliance is good" extremely reductionist and an incredible oversimplification?

was the vietnam war good? iraq 1 or 2? libya? drone strikes in yemen?

Yeah, so many games have Eurocentric, whitecentric, militaristic, and imperialist undertones and it definitely turns me off. The only FPS I play are Halo and Overwatch because of this. Halo is xenophobic at its core (kill the alien fanatics), but it's covered up in enough sci-fi dressings to not bother me. And Overwatch barely has a story to speak of, but the fact that it features a really strong, diverse cast really appeals to me.

I played Battlefield 3 and 4 a few years back, and only did so despite the gross military / imperialist themes. I considered picking up BF1, but I ultimately concluded that its glorification and aggrandizing of war wasn't something I wanted to expose myself to or support. It's a fine line, and I'm not going to pretend its fully consistent. Sometimes I'm down with games that normalize war, sometimes I'm not.

There's a few things I'll instantly quit and sell a game over, though. Unquestioned, uncritical parroting of War on Terror rhetoric (including bullshit labels like "eco-terrorism") is a big one. Torture is another.

Originally Posted by Falk

I find it interesting that despite treading very carefully around the issue ("are they the good Russians or the bad Russians", COD4, antagonist in MW2 being actually from the US) that the general impression the games give are MURRICA YEAH HOOAH

I didn't get that from MW2. It ends with a lot of the east coast wrecked and the player as a fugitive, pretty much.

Originally Posted by aeolist

isn't "this country/military alliance is good" extremely reductionist and an incredible oversimplification?

was the vietnam war good? iraq 1 or 2? libya? drone strikes in yemen?

If they make a more complex story that's fine, but most military shooters are pretty black and white in terms of story, which I don't mind at all, so from that point of view I'd prefer US/NATO stay the good guys.