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Proposal to Delete /r/golang (groups.google.com)

fortytw2 が 投稿

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[–]jcaustin 110ポイント111ポイント  (24子コメント)

What would be the alternative to reddit? Personally, I love the golang subreddit and would hate to see it go.

[–]programfog 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't there needs to be an alternative to reddit, if people don't agree with the policies of the site they are free to leave.

Subreddits are a community effort, and not an official site. The mods should not be part of the go team, and it should be handed over back to the reddit go community to do with as they see fit for reddit+go.

I created a golang community on imzy a while back which is not very active I admit, but I never represented it as an "official" go site, and would not like anyone from the go team to arbitrarily decide one day to close it.

Looking for contributors: https://www.imzy.com/golang

[–]mwholt -5ポイント-4ポイント  (12子コメント)

The Go Forum has been up for over a year now and has considerable activity.

[–]eikenberry 60ポイント61ポイント  (2子コメント)

The thing about reddit is that it combines many different interests into one place. A go specific forum is not a viable replacement.

[–]bwinterton 42ポイント43ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is exactly my problem with deleting /r/golang. Going anywhere else for my Go news will not be the same as having it here alongside so much of the other content that I consume.

[–]karma_vacuum123 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

...and the flexible UI...the scalable content delivery hosting...etc etc

[–]jcaustin 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not super familiar with Go Forum, I'll have to check it out. But, one thing that I love about programming language subreddits is that we tend to get some cross-pollination from other languages; that looks like something I'd miss at a Go focused site/app.

[–]weberc2 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's a good enough community, but the format of the conversation is different than r/golang. Further, the lack of voting and convo threading make for an unpleasant experience.

[–]pwforgetter 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The post you respond to is at -4, so voting doesn't work so well here. (well, it works in a agree/disagree way, not in a 'good discussion point', 'bad discussion point')

Looking at that forum for 2 minutes makes me really appreciate reddit-threading though.

[–]weberc2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The voting I was referring to is the toplevel submission voting, not comment voting.

[–]tex0 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's 2016. Nobody wants to use a Forum anymore.

[–]postman_ -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

What should I do if I'm not an SJW?

[–]pwforgetter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Create /r/gobros ?

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Become one.

HTH, HaND.

[–]postman_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not really inclusive.

コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

    [–]knotdjb 166ポイント167ポイント  (9子コメント)

    So people that rarely use this subreddit want to get rid of it? Okay.

    [–]weberc2 59ポイント60ポイント  (5子コメント)

    The off-platform vote is darkly amusing.

    [–]25600mah 26ポイント27ポイント  (4子コメント)

    After seeing the whole Golang moral police thing a couple of weeks ago, it's hardly surprising. Something code of conduct enforcement.

    [–]knotdjb 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Look I hate witch hunts and the crap that preceded the events of the whole code of conduct debacle and I think people should be reasonable to each other. But I reckon those voicing their opinion on the mailing list in favour of shutting down this subreddit are jumping on the bandwagon not because /u/spez did something idiotic, but instead taking advantage of the opportunity to snipe and generalize the users. Reddit is a toxic site full of terrible people who should not have nice things, blah blah blah, etc.

    [–]dilap 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    link? i missed this

    [–]f2u 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

    We don't know how much work goes on behind the scenes to keep things civil here.

    [–]karma_vacuum123 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

    actually you do...that's the point...Reddit puts /u/bradfitz on the same level as losers like me

    [–]f2u 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The public statistics don't show moderator actions, as far as I know. This could be quite a bit of work, and it's pushed onto you once you are in the moderator club. I can understand that people do not want to interact much with the site beyond the moderation effort.

    [–]threemux 80ポイント81ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Several prominent Go community members have expressed their hatred for Reddit before. This incident is merely a convenient excuse to do what they've always wanted to do.

    Admins - please don't take this sub away. It's my primary source of Go news and links.

    [–]buckhx 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Never let a good crisis go to waste.

    [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    To be fair to him, he wants to talk out with the mods to find out if this subreddit is considered official, if it is not considered official, then they'll just hand the moderation over to others.

    [–]Sythe2o0 70ポイント71ポイント  (6子コメント)

    1. Go has some sort of an established community here, and just killing it, especially without suggesting a replacement (although that wouldn't be much better) would do a good job of making Go less popular.
    2. As programmers we should all already have been aware that that data on reddit is transient and able to be manipulated by those running the website, and further we should also know we aren't a particularly political subreddit that's likely to be subject to this sort of intervention.

    The least the Go team could do would be to shift moderation of the subreddit over to other users, if they are particularly bothered by this.

    [–]Stranger_Dude 124ポイント125ポイント  (6子コメント)

    This is my primary way of ingesting new Go-related content--I don't intend on installing another news app at this time. I am fairly new to the language, and this seems like a really petty and unappealing introduction to the community. Are all golang devs so hotheaded? This proposal and its language seems counter to the community standard.

    I mean, what are you going to use, Google Groups? Yuck.

    [–]throwbible 46ポイント47ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I would really prefer that we delete Google Groups. There's a ton of Go related stuff that I would like to read and follow, but Google Groups actively discourager me. It's the absolute worst interface that I've actively used for anything in the past 5 years.

    [–]knotdjb 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Such a shame they destroyed the interface to Google Groups and by virtue DejaNews. Browsing newsgroup archives is such a pain in the arse.

    [–]JimBlizz 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree, this is also my primary source of Go news.

    [–]weberc2 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Same here.

    [–]knotdjb 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I mean, what are you going to use, Google Groups? Yuck.

    Even worse is someone on the mailing list suggesting Google+. Now that would be a fucking travesty.

    [–]RevMen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Are all golang devs so hotheaded

    Of course not.

    [–]binaryblade 170ポイント171ポイント  (18子コメント)

    So to protest an admin overstepping their bounds in a community, the core go team decides to over step their bounds in a community. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

    [–]hackop 81ポイント82ポイント  (2子コメント)

    But don't you see? Their brand of hate is the Right Kindtm. They definitely know what's best for us and this subreddit. They are, of course, our moral superiors.

    Now where have I heard that style rhetoric before...

    [–]mcouturier 26ポイント27ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This. I was in favor for the code of conduct but it seems it applies only to the outsiders. The golang team members surely are opiniated and not just with the language. The more I hang around go-related stuff the more I can feel the team looking down on the community. I am not generalising, don't get me wrong, but I observed it often and from different persons. Edit: words

    [–]hackop 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is exactly why I am not (and will never be) in favor of any type of Code of Conduct. I don't need a small group of people in the heart of political correctness dictating how I should act and what is Right and Wrong. It's only ever used to hurt and exclude people they don't agree with or for them to circlejerk about how diverse, accepting, or tolerant they are.

    I'm sure, had I posted this in any of the more "official" forums, I would be reprimanded for not stepping in line. That's evidence in and of itself why the subreddit should stay in place.

    [–]aminoglycine 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    exactly

    [–]pwforgetter -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Did you read the thread? They didn't decide, one of them had a proposal. He doesn't want to support reddit and wonders if all the moderators feel the same, how to proceed then. He even suggested building a replacement, so he's not completely uncaring of the the community.

    A few bystanders (at least the names don't match moderators), agreed with him, but that still is no decision.

    Reading the community guidelines (or only the small version that says:

    • Treat everyone with respect and kindness.
    • be thoughtful in how you communicate.
    • Don’t be destructive or inflammatory.

    It seems that indeed this is failing. Your post got a lot of upvotes, is not respecting anyone, somewhat inflammatory. How thoughtful it is, that's up for debate. You had a few pretty complicated words in there. :)

    [–]mcouturier 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Also Brad starts with his concerns about Reddit as a whole but then the discussion turns into why they hate this subreddit..

    [–]pwforgetter -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I never participated in comment threads before, but this thread suggests people have a hard time sticking to the civility the sidebar requests. Hopefully this thread is exceptional, but if this is the norm, then yeah, I can imagine they get negative associations with it.

    [–]4ad 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    this thread suggests people have a hard time sticking to the civility the sidebar requests

    No, it does not suggest such a thing at all.

    It seems like you are confused about the difference between people disagreeing with some position (usually yours) and being civil. Hint, people who want this reddit to be nuked from orbit without any concern about the actual people here are the ones who are not civil. Another hint, if someone downvotes you, it doesn't mean he is not civil.

    You don't want civility. You want passive acceptance of your internet culture and you call it civility. Shame on you for not calling what it is!

    [–]pwforgetter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    My idea of civility might differ from yours, but your description of mine doesn't resemble mine at least.

    Someone asks 'what would be an alternative', and someone else (not me) responds with a link to the forum. That's at -6 now, so gets collapsed by default. I find it somewhat uncivil that when someone gives a reasonable response to a question, they get downvoted to prevent people seeing that easily.

    Some people respond and argue that that forum is a lot less convenient than Reddit. Civil.

    But yeah, if the reddiquette and CoC are not the base on which to start a discussion, then it gets hard.

    Thankfully, I know where the exit is.

    [–]Sphax 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We don't want or need a replacement, we need for them to stop acting like they own this subreddit, they don't. They need to give up control and let people interested in this community moderate it.

    [–]binaryblade 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Did you read the thread?

    I read the entire thread, and participated in it.

    He even suggested building a replacement.

    That's entirely my point. That attitude assumes you own the community and can do with it as you will. If you assume that position, then you have to assume /u/spez owns reddit and can do with it as he pleases. The truth is, the community is not owned by anyone but the users.

    A few bystanders (at least the names don't match moderators), agreed with him, but that still is no decision. Go is decided by commitee and Russ Cox is the head moderator. If the team decides to back out (and salt the earth as they leave), then the subreddit is gone.

    Here's the thing, my post exactly made the point that I intended and in exactly the way I intended. The words were chosen carefully so as to point out the parallels between the actions of the reddit admins and the golang mods.

    It seems that indeed this is failing. Your post got a lot of upvotes, is not respecting anyone, somewhat inflammatory. How thoughtful it is, that's up for debate. You had a few pretty complicated words in there. :)

    Herein lies the problem with guidelines like that, who are they determined by. What you find offensive, I find a discussion and it really depends on what side of the issue you are on. The problem with rules like that, is I can turn around and be offended at anything I disagree with. Then what, you have to ban all of that. Of course we shouldn't be assholes, but sometimes discussion calls for direct language which does sugar coat things. For me, be honest and direct is the most respectful thing you can do.

    [–]pwforgetter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Your quoting suggests a few things that I said and a few things I didn't say. Confusing.

    I love clear communication, and as a Dutchman I have the necessary training to deal with direct communication. (In my circles, the Dutch are somewhat infamous for speaking their mind).

    There is a big difference (imo) between saying:

    You are incorrect for a, b, c.

    and

    You fucking moron, learn to think.

    (I couldn't possibly explain what you said as the second, it's a huge fantasy). The first was direct, and provided 3 reasons, the second was just insulting and didn't actually move the discussion forward.

    Your suggestion that they overstep their bounds as if it already happened, or is a sure thing to happen, was (imo) not helping move forward.

    You were suggesting that someone who complains about an admin modifying what someone said is at about the same level as asking how to proceed with this subreddit, that is just distorting things to ignite fires, not to have a clear discussion.

    [–]sin2pifx 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    not completely uncaring of the the community.

    If that's the best they can do...

    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

      [–]Sphax 246ポイント247ポイント  (21子コメント)

      If you don't want to use reddit that's fine but closing the subreddit is a shitty thing to do. It doesn't belong to the Go team.

      [–]dcormier 26ポイント27ポイント  (16子コメント)

      It doesn't belong to the Go team.

      Well, I mean, the guy who posted that is /u/bradfitz. Who is this guy (bio there says "I work on @golang at @google."). And a mod with full permissions here. So, it kinda does belong to the Go team? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      But yeah, he can certainly decline to participate and delete his account, but deleting the subreddit will achieve nothing except annoying this specific community. Those who still want to talk about golang on reddit will just create another subreddit.

      [–]EmptyRedData 36ポイント37ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Brad just posted this onto the google groups discussion:

      The question is what to do with /r/golang when all moderators of it want to leave.

      I don't think we want an unmaintained /r/golang that looks to be an official Go space.

      When /r/news had drama and people split off, /r/uncensorednews started off okay for a second and then turned into a clusterf*ck.

      I don't want /r/golang to turn into crap while looking like it's official.

      So I'd prefer /r/golang become dormant and users go to wherever they like, be it the Go Forum, voat, or /r/unofficialgolang. Or we find an open source Reddit clone and run an instance for just Go. There are many things I like about the Reddit voting & thread model & UI over, say, the Go Forum.

      Nothing will happen immediately, but it's clear that we now need a plan for what to do with /r/golang.

      Basically he is saying that he doesn't want the /r/golang name sullied by an unmaintained mess that he believes will happen when the Go team itself ceases its moderation.

      I honestly think that making a new golang subreddit that isn't "officially" tied to the Go team seems like a garbage idea. /r/unofficialgolang ? If you were searching for a solution to a particular problem, and you had a very nice and concise answer come up in your search results, but under that address? You wouldn't bother to go to it. That would essentially kill the Go reddit community, which to me seems like something they wouldn't mind doing. Dave Cheney, Brad Fitzpatrick, and many others in the google groups discussion linked above don't mind that we lose this place as a means of discussion and gathering news. "Delete it."

      It's shitty how the members of that google group thread seem to be looking down on us as a community just because of the Admin that royally fucked up. Thats not fair to us and to take away our space because it looks like an "official Go space" is just as shitty.

      Let us keep this space! We will put a stupid fucking disclaimer on it that keeps it from looking "official".

      [–]CaptainDjango 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

      It hardly looks official anyway, just a regular ol' code subreddit. I don't want to have to go use Google groups to get my go news just because.

      It's not like it would be an unmaintained mess anyway, look at all the other programming subreddits, they seem to be faring well with active community moderation

      [–]jjheiselman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Agreed about it not looking official. Hell, I didn't know anyone from the Go core team was actually on this sub. I just thought it was all enthusiasts.

      [–]fortytw2[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I'm certain there are many community members willing to step up, should the Go team no longer wish to. Just an open call and handover wouldn't be so hard

      [–]zsxking 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I'm honestly surprised that this subreddit is considered an official channel of the go team. The subreddit should be own by the user community not the creators anyway.

      [–]tyrionlannister 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      There's an increasing tendency for this. For example, /r/Twitch is pretty much fully controlled by Twitch already, with community volunteers. Also, /r/Amazon, a bunch of others.

      [–]knotdjb 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I nominate /u/fuzxxl to moderate this subreddit.

      [–]FUZxxl 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Oh, what did I do now?

      [–]idboehman 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I can't believe they even suggested voat, that place is a cesspool of white supremacists and pedophiles that left Reddit because "censorship".

      [–]deong 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That raised an eyebrow for me too.

      Also, given that the story is "Reddit shuts down a sub falsely calling people pedophiles, users begin harassing admins, admins make poor decisions and overreact to harassment", I'd be a little embarrassed if my public position was that I wanted to abandon reddit because the overreaction looks bad.

      If you're concerned about how being affiliated with Reddit looks, I'd sincerely hope spez screwing around with comments isn't the first thing that's made you pay attention.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]eikenberry 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Founding a community and owning that community are 2 very different things.

        [–]4ad 30ポイント31ポイント  (2子コメント)

        It was not founded by the Go team, it was founded by /u/uriel, which then added /u/rsc (from the Go team) as a moderator, and multiple other people not from the Go team. The Go team was never really involved in day to day operation of this reddit. Until recently, there was no involvement whatsoever. More recently there was some minimal level of involvement but hardly the level necessary in order to arrogantly claim they own this place.

        [–]FUZxxl 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

        TBH, giving back /r/golang to cat-v doesn't sound like a particularly bad idea.

        [–]Ironballs 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

        rip /u/uriel :(

        [–]Sphax 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yes I know who he is. I'm saying the community makes the content here and it should be community controlled. Moderators shouldn't abuse their power.

        [–]bradfitz 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Whether it's an official part of the Go project is the heart of my question.

        If it's an official part of the Go project, then I think it shouldn't be. And then I think Google people should be uninvolved entirely from it. I removed myself as a moderator here.

        If we had created it, though, then I think we should delete it. But we didn't: the sidebar says it was created by a non-Googler 7 years ago before I or other Googlers got involved, though. Because of that, I no longer support deleting it. But I personally think the Go team should be uninvolved with this space and we can let others take over.

        Reddit doesn't seem like a trustworthy platform we should be officially associated with anymore.

        If Github or Gerrit admins were modifying our code for their own amusement, or Google Groups admins were modifying our emails, we would ditch them in a heartbeat. I don't think we should demand less of Reddit.

        [–]verandaguy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I think the main issue here is that the community hadn't been alerted of, or invited to participate in any discussion about this.

        The whole /u/spez snafu is a problem, and there's certainly a debate to be had about it -- and it does make sense to have that debate outside of Reddit (even if only out of principle), but a modpost or sticky post with a link to the Google Groups discussion as it starts up would've been nice, and likely would've reduced the appearance of a disconnect between the subreddit and Googlers working on Golang (not to mention, it would've increased transparency, which is usually good).

        [–]programfog 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I think it is your use of the word "officially" that is confusing here.

        Why do you think having a subreddit for the go programming language makes it official?

        I created a golang community on imzy (https://www.imzy.com/golang), but it is not official it is a place to post news and projects related to go. I would not like for the go team to ask me to close it, and the same goes for the community here.

        [–]HectorJ 75ポイント76ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Those who hate Reddit for what happened can leave, but why salt the earth?

        That seems petty.

        Live and let live.

        [–]polypus74 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        what happened?

        [–]bobcrotch -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Marginalizing what spez did isn't a healthy way to handle this. People are allowed to be pissed off about it and rightly should be.

        Having a proper discourse about how it impacts this facet of the community is what needs to happen.

        [–]ShockScapes 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm not marginalizing anything when I say I don't care lol

        [–]guaranin 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        We KNEW that they have database access. This is nothing new.

        Also, I believe he was joking.

        [–]chvvel843 39ポイント40ポイント  (1子コメント)

        The hypocrisy here is mind blowing.

        A moderator gets offended because a person (not even related to the golang community) abused his power to edit some comments.

        So what does this moderator do? Abuse his power by wanting to close the entire subreddit, without any discussion with the people in that community.

        Amazing...

        [–]thewhitetulip 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That too by having the discussion on a Google product, not even on Reddit.

        [–]wlll 63ポイント64ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I like the Go subreddit. Don't want to see it go.

        [–]tclineks 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

        This is basically the only subreddit I look at and I get notified of many new projects through it.

        [–]demizer 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I've been coming to this subreddit multiple times a day since 2012 and I'll be damned if I have to Google groups for my Go news. The mods should just stop using reddit and leave the subreddit to someone that cares.

        [–]thewhitetulip 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I got most of the traffic to my book through this subreddit. Heck, even the advices/critique I got for my book was due to this subreddit. It wouldn't have existed without this subreddit, since the book was practically brushed off in the go-nuts channel and IRC is an terrible alternative to Reddit, so is that goforum thing, way too much JS and terribly slow. Reddit is Reddit, if their CEO did something shit and the Go project doesn't want to consider this unofficial then just leave it to the community, ironically enough, that's the whole point of open source.

        [–]fungussa 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Heck, that's hyper-reactionary.

        If we discover a city government official doing something dishonest, should we abandon that city and go live somewhere else?

        Forcing closure of this sub would harm the community and it'd certainly harm the popularity of the language

        [–]AllThingsWiseWndrful 63ポイント64ポイント  (1子コメント)

        https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-Google-acting-unethically-or-illegally

        Might as well delete Google also and all its products. But also, bad move by reddit and I don't like them as much anymore.

        [–]climbinglepton 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I do feel like this is kinda ironic. /r/golang is the only place I even find Go related stuff and I like it.

        [–]jocull 28ポイント29ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Of course. Because Google Groups is so user friendly.

        [–]karma_vacuum123 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

        agreed, the Google groups UI is awful and I assume is just in maintenance mode.

        [–]thewhitetulip 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I am not sure if they even maintain it anymore.

        [–]emirozer 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Its a cruel joke.

        [–]i_regret_most_of_it 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I enjoyed the snark from a couple of the responses suggesting that the proper way to use golang-nuts was through a mail client/MUA (cutting off people who just use basic webmail interfaces), especially when Google results lead you to Google Groups. Pretty oblivious to the size and breadth of the community.

        [–]jocull 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        My favorite part is signing into Google just to READ Google Groups. Like... seriously?

        Oh, and then after you sign in it redirects you back to a generic landing screen. Enjoy clicking the link again to go back to where you originally wanted to go.

        [–]Zyst 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well, in all fairness redirects open(ed?) up a security vulnerability. I can't quite remember which one.

        [–]demizer 27ポイント28ポイント  (1子コメント)

        To discuss shutting down this subreddit without asking its community directly is beyond the pale.

        [–]thewhitetulip 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Ironically the person posting is complaining abuse of power.

        [–]karma_vacuum123 25ポイント26ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Go governance has developed an implicit hierarchy. Reddit offers an alternative to that...here the Go insiders must compete fairly with total nobodies like me for mindshare. Don't close this down and replace it with something that defaults to reinforcing the implicit power structure of some Google employees...Go governance is already veering towards a tiered system as it is

        Indeed, it might be nice to the Google employees give up moderation privileges...you folks are already concentrating enough power....interestingly the only people in favor of closing this sub seem to be the insiders

        Really disappointed to see this sub described on the mailing list as being full of "scum and villainy"...I know it's just a witty quip but it's also totally off base.

        [–]SilentWeaponQuietWar 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

        this has been my experience as well. outside of this subreddit, most go communities seem extremely exclusive and toxic. Google groups included.

        [–]thewhitetulip 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yep, there are two factions inside the Go community, elites and others. Elites = Authors, others = the rest of us. They discuss closing down subreddit on google group and don't even post the link to reddit!

        [–]hendler 93ポイント94ポイント  (4子コメント)

        The Reddit community and the reddit CEO are not the same thing. Like, please don't delete the US because of Trump.

        [–]weberc2 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Frankly I'm impressed the Go team is upset at this. I erroneously suspected the slight against Trump supporters would be brushed off because they don't seem to share the same politics. On the other hand, this should be brushed off because this represents no material threat to our sub and this isn't a sufficiently large civil rights violation to justify polluting the community with politics.

        [–]zinver 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Google Engineers are generally the most politically active and ethically engaged professionals I've ever seen.

        [–]timetravelhunter -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Is that you Spaz?

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]EmptyRedData 59ポイント60ポイント  (1子コメント)

          "Maybe we can just make an auto-reject moderator bot for it, making sure it has no content."

          I appreciate the work you put into this nice language, but don't shit on the community that actually likes using Reddit because of your grievance with how an admin is conducting himself.

          [–]pope_nefarious 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yeah... lets not take our ball and go home, let's take the whole fucking playground!!!

          [–]lazy_jones 16ポイント17ポイント  (6子コメント)

          Terrible idea. If Googlers have a problem with Reddit (beyond Google failing at social media and being jealous because of it), they can hand /r/golang over to the community and consider it an unofficial subreddit. We'll also get rid of the CoC that has caused more harm than it helped this way.

          [–]4ad 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

          With the mention that /r/golang was a product of the community, and suffered through a hostile takeover. It was never an official Go space, and even after the takeover the Go team had very little involvement here (rather than enforcing the CoC nobody asked for, every now and then).

          [–]chvvel843 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I didn't know that. This makes it even worse. So Go team takes over the subreddit, starts enforcing CoC and then discusses on another platform to simply delete the subreddit!

          WTF?

          [–]bradfitz -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I didn't know the early /r/golang history or that uriel had created it 7 years ago before the Go team got involved. (I'm not sure "hostile takeover" is accurate, but I also wasn't involved during that time so I don't know the details.)

          In any case, I no longer support deleting /r/golang. My new position is that we should make it unofficial and the Go team should have no part in it.

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            [–]toelint 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Terrible idea.

            [–]_cowl 34ポイント35ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I am frankly tired of the trend that is pushing Technical communities on moral/political wars. This subreddit has become the defacto goto source for Go news/activity updates because it has some -shall we say- technical usage advantages and while I agree that this particular case of position misuse is unethical I don't find it reasonable to boycott the whole platform. If it were any other moderator (who does not have Cxx role) acting like that, would we have had this discussion? If the answer is No (as I expect it to be normally) than this makes it a political war and Go community is better served by staying out of this. Remember: "Go is an open source programming language that makes it easy to build simple, reliable, and efficient software." NOT "Go is an open source programming language that makes it easy to engage in moral/political wars" . If anyone feels strongly about this they can simply exercise their right to delete their personal accounts, but trying to steer the whole community in their protest is misguided.

            [–]sacado 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

            This. I like the fact that Go is an opinionated language on the technical side of things. Beside technical stuff, I don't care about the language author's opinions.

            I'm not here to discuss politics with people at the other side of the world. I'm here to write programs that get shit done. If I wanted to discuss moral and ethics, I'd rather go to /r/stoicism.

            [–]hobbified 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

            A community is what the community wants it to be, not what your corporate sponsors want it to be. If Brad and other mods want to leave, they are more than welcome to. If they want to destroy this sub, they have the technical power to. But no amount of rhetoric gives them the moral right to make that choice for anyone else.

            [–]shield1123 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

            ITT: An overwhelming "No pls"

            [–]youguess 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

            God no!

            Only because bradfitz has a problem with it doesn't mean that all others do

            Squatting /r/golang and not handing moderation over would be a very unfair move to those who liked and still like Reddit

            If you don't wanna be a mod, fair enough, step down but leave us in peace!

            [–]sethammons 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Whoa, slow down there. This is my primary source for Go developments and news.

            [–]bwinterton 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I completely agree with what has been stated, both here and in the Google groups thread. I feel like the proposal to delete the subreddit is completely a knee jerk reaction. The CEO made some poor decisions, but that doesn't mean the whole place has gone to crap.

            Reddit has been, and continues to be, an amazing place for many users such as myself to stay current on news, hobbies, and other interests. At the very least, we should take our time and make logical decisions based on several different factors. Not just one outburst from a CEO.

            [–]polypus74 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The world is a nasty untidy place, let's just delete it.

            [–]tscs37 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I don't get why the moderators would even suggest to do such a petty thing.

            It would be best if those that suggested this step down as moderators, they have betrayed community trust by not even being this up to the Reddit community before posting on Golang nuts.

            [–]TwistU2 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I'm learning Go and this is my primary source of information.

            Wtf is happening?

            If you don't like Reddit or the community just quit and don't bother others.

            Well... They use email lists in 2016... So yeah... I can understand now...

            [–]FIuffyRabbit 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Some of the main developers of go feel that this subreddit is cancer for whatever reason. Meanwhile they are usually a big reason why a discussion turns to shit.

            [–]karma_vacuum123 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Go governance is becoming very cliquey...I feel like this move masks a desire to move discussion someplace where an inner circle have permanent and infinite "mod points"

            [–]Astra108 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            This sort of thing can kill a community. A few years ago R lost a lot of users to Python. One of the reasons was how hostile the core R community was to newcomers.

            [–]aminoglycine 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I honestly think most of Reddit is garbage, but this is one of only 2 subreddits I actually follow. Please don't delete this.

            [–]mcouturier 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

            This and /r/programming ? Because that's what I do too!

            [–]i_regret_most_of_it 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Please no, I like it here :(.

            [–]rodbzro 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It always impress me seeing engineers trying to answer human problems with machine forms.

            [–]bitmadness 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

            For god's sake, don't destroy the subreddit. We agree the CEO is an ass. Nevertheless, many people, including me, rely on the subreddit to keep up with what's going on in the Go community.

            [–]thewhitetulip 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yes, the one place in the Go community where there is no hierarchy.

            [–]rantenki 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Because killing a community because it contains bad actors has worked so well in the past.

            There are 25k or so subscribers here, who obviously find value in the community.

            Suggesting that this is a rational response: "In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see dozen news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang subreddit./"

            sounds kinda...

            "That is so beyond unethical and immature".

            [–]mellett68 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I never thought this subreddit was official in any way, in fact I prefer that it's not.

            I'm not using bloody Google Groups.

            [–]thewhitetulip 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Me neither. If reddit is deleted I wonder where newbies will get real advice.

            [–]mellett68 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            It's definitely the hardest thing I've found about go, if you're not an old school news group type of developer it can seem a bit inscrutable to get involved in the community.

            The language is decent, but the community just isn't there to get me really enthused.

            [–]thewhitetulip 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yes, I have felt your pain :-) Reddit is the reason my book http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook/ exists, the core team (except AG) had one feedback, "the language is called Go and not Golang".

            I do not know what I would have done if this reddit was not present.

            The community is split into two, elite and us plebeians;

            [–]epiris 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Deleting posts as a CEO is pretty silly, and we should do our best to demand he answers for it because their is no excuse. Being a CEO requires a constant and unrelenting discipline, he proved he doesn't have that so he can't be CEO.

            Deleting the sub Reddit is like removing NFL teams if the commissioner misbehaved, because fuck fans.

            [–]shootthepuck91 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

            First off, I love /r/golang and use it almost as much as he mailing list... and don't want to see it go.

            But slight correction, Reddit's CEO didn't just delete posts...he actually went in the database and changed the posts. The posts were something like "f@@k /u/redditCEO" and were changed to "f@@k /u/SomeModInTheDonald". To me, this is far more dangerous and troubling than just deleting posts.

            Again, I'm not for deleting /r/golang I just wanted to make that point a bit clearer.

            [–]aminoglycine 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Thanks for clearing that up. But regardless, taking away this subreddit from the entire community is an immature way to handle this situation imo

            [–]epiris 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I read the article and know what happened, I'm not sure I agree either one is much worst coming from the CEO but I don't care to argue the point. Mostly trying to make the point that we should not react so hastily because of a single action by a single person.

            People do dumb shit some times, sometimes those people are the face of an entity, a business, organization, or a circle of friends. It's a social customary to allow the entity to react in order to show they did not condone the action before you decide to change your entire perspective of the entity as a whole based on the actions of an individual. It would be rather hard to have a resilient civilization otherwise..?

            All I'm saying is let's give Reddit time to react, plus, turkey.

            [–]nerr 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Upvoting for visibility. I linked this thread from the mailing list to show that there's already a fair amount of pushback against this proposal.

            [–]arekkas 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

            "oh my god someone did something stupid let's overreact and kill this community" (tm)

            [–]Marreck 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I am surprised that the question about wether or not to delete this sub is directed at the other mods and not others in the community.

            The moderators play a very important role, but in the end it is the users that keep the community alive (in this sub or other places).

            I understand that strong ownership of the language has made the language great and not some sort of monstrosity of "design by committee" or groupthink or what not as you see in some other languages.

            But there is no reason to translate that behavior to the way the community is managed. This proposal is not how it should be done as far as I am concerned.

            [–]moose_cahoots 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

            I expect more than this knee jerk reaction from our mods. While /u/spez seriously screwed up, it has been a long time since this site could be considered a bastion for free speech (which it explicitly is not).

            Deleting this subreddit without first establishing a viable alternative is simply counterproductive and will harm the adoption of golang. Many of us depend on this sub for news and new open source libraries.

            I am not married to Reddit, but we need another place to serve this function before we delete it, especially if the reason is to make a statement rather than for practical purposes.

            [–]thewhitetulip 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

            There is no viable alternative. Tell me one place over the Internet which is as open to newbies as Reddit is? Google Group? nope, threads die out if they are just for asking advice as the "busy" people either be snarky or otherwise. Reddit is a place where everyone is kinda equal.

            [–]moose_cahoots 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

            This was pretty much my point. Also, if these guys deleted the sub before they found a better home, they would be incapable of telling their audience where they went, so we couldn't even follow them to the promised land.

            This whole thing would be akin to rage quitting a job before you have another lined up.

            [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

            They have said they'll find an alternate home. Sure, because they are going to find a place to have democratic conversations. Nothing on the Internet is like Reddit. Everywhere else the snark lords will rule and Go community will collapse like the Berlin wall

            [–]moose_cahoots 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Hey, if they can find an alternative home that can support the community in a similar fashion, I'll be happy to to with them. Heck, maybe we could even move over to Voat, although that place is kind of a cesspool.

            [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            an alternative home. please dont.

            Reddit is fine the way it is. /r/golang is the only place on the Internet where the elites and us are treated equally. They do not give good feedback over google groups, which is going to remain the primary source for the community because of their sponsor.

            You can clearly see the split between the community, the reddit one and the google group one. This is the reason Reddit's community should exist.

            [–]pafortin 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The CEO's actions are definitely repugnant but I agree with many of the comments here, it would be premature to delete our sub-reddit before we see what will happen here... I believe the CEO will be forced out and more stringent security controls will be placed around comments placed by people.

            [–]emirozer 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I find this a bit of a childish reaction. And sucks that this is being discussed off the platform itself ?

            [–]ab_coder 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

            They really should be communicating with the users here first about its fate, rather than on another platform.

            [–]kryo2023 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

            It's right on the sidebar "Don’t be destructive or inflammatory."

            /u/bradfitz, please read that and reflect.

            [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            it doesn't apply to the elites. These rules only apply to us plebeians.

            [–]warmans 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

            What's the point? Someone will just make a new one called uncensoredgolang or truegolang or some other stupid name.

            [–]haksli 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I am new here, and want to learn Go.

            Don't you bloody dare to delete this subreddit!

            [–]kevinmrr 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

            It seems pretty fucking childish to want to delete the entire subreddit, a repository of uncontroversial knowledge and to which 25k people subscribe for professional assistance. I understand making a stand when free society is threatened, but deleting r/golang isn't going to do anything but hurt your peers.

            [–]thewhitetulip 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            only if they consider us as peers.

            [–]Frenchiie 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

            he sounds just as bad as the reddit CEO lol.

            [–]krak3n_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Cutting off the nose to spite the face?

            [–]haXeNinja 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Deleting this sub, or setting it to private, is not a good idea.

            [–]Ainar-G 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

            HackerNews discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13035760.

            [–]thewhitetulip 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Nope. make this unofficial channel and let it live. This is the primary place to get Go news and traffic + visibility for new projects. This is the one place where the elites and the plebeians like us are treated almost equally, with just the community sorting this with up/downvotes. It is ironical that this discussion was started on Google Groups and not here. It shows that the Go community really is split into two parts, Googlers and others.

            Google+ is horrible, Google Groups is horrible. There is no replacement for Reddit + I do not want the elites to be in control of the communication medium, they already have control over every other part, let the community thrive on reddit. We are fine, thank you.

            Just hand over the moderation to someone else.

            P.S Many many years ago Zuck called everyone who signed up to his intranet website as "dumb fucks", let's delete facebook.

            [–]esimov 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I completely agree with you. You pinpointed the essence of a medium such reddit. Reddit should be let to be part of the community and not to be restricted to a very few people. In fact something even if originally belows to someone, once it became widely used and accepted, will not be his/her personal property anymore, because it's their responsibility and obligation above all to handover to someone else the moderation, if they consider they don't want to be part of this community anymore. So to delete it is not an option, to step back is an option!!

            [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Exactly, I was once banned for standing up to the elites. This is an open source project now, they can't just ignore the community like they always do.

            Even if they do find a reddit clone, I do not think that it'll be as effective as reddit itself, why? Because here they and us get the same treatment, there is no "oh it is the Go author" on reddit. This is democracy and anarchy at it's best.

            If they don't want to be affiliated to this subreddit, they are welcome to step down. Don't delete this for christ's sake. We get it that they practically don't care about the community, but we do. This subreddit matters to us. Google groups is horrible. The comments they give on google groups is horrible because it is "their turf".

            http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook/ If this subreddit would have not been there, this book would not have been written. There wasn't much of a feedback that the google group gave except that "the language is called Go and not golang", as my books' original title was.

            I vehemently vote against deleting the subreddit.

            p.s. this is the very reason why Trump won the US elections, the "leaders" were completely disconnected with the reality.

            [–]Simpfally 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Kill it.
            It's a wretched hive of scum and villainy. The Go subreddit was the only thing similar to human and it is downright painful most of the time.

            Who are those people? It's cringy as fuck.

            [–]tscs37 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            they don't like reddit, didn't you notice?

            that's all that defines these people.

            [–]thebigdukesix 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I don't usually post, but I had to speak my mind.

            I agree that it shows a lack of judgment that the Reddit CEO tampered with users data. I am sure he will be forced to resign and new measures to assure community confidence will be introduced.

            However, I do not think two wrongs make a right.

            Removing a thriving community shows an incredible lack of judgment as well. Bringing this level of fear and uncertainty for personal reasons is not only unacceptable but is is quite unprofessional.

            Brad Fitzpatrick and other Go members who supported this motion should resign from any official Go language related project.

            [–]_rs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Brad Fitzpatrick and other Go members who supported this motion should resign from any official Go language related project.

            Yes! And they should also remove all the code they wrote for the project! /s

            No offence, what you said is very stupid.

            [–]dcormier 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Desktop link

            [–]globalgobble 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            What everyone uses for primary source of news about Golang ? Blogs and stuff are welcome. I just want to put it effortlessly to my feedly feed. Thx

            [–]lolomfgkthxbai 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Overall having an "official" subreddit for anything is a fool's errand. Reddit is about communities, that also means that the community handles moderation and makes or breaks the subreddit. Having some "official" looking down their nose at the plebs is not a good way to run a subreddit.

            [–]NeverUse-YouPromised 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Mark my words, this will get pushed through despite the community's protests. It happened with aliases and it'll happen here.

            [–]karma_vacuum123 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Sadly I agree...a few more changes like this and they might as well just close the source and distribute binaries only (the Go license would actually permit this)

            コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

              [–]sin2pifx 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Feeling the same as most here. Go is a bit of a vague interest on the side for me, that perhaps, one day, might be useful. Deleting this group will simply smother that interest.

              But then ... the attitude in that google group is just plain horrible. I think I've already lost my interest in any form of participation. Talk about toxic.

              Edit: unsubscribed. Perhaps that'll make someone notice.

              [–]iends 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

              If you delete /r/golang, we'll just move to a new go subreddit that has mods that are interested in reddit. It'll continue to be successful, if people like /u/dgryski join it.

              [–]emirozer 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

              this person right here gets it.

              I will not go on to another platform. I have enough content providers to visit already.

              [–]david_nix 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Just wanted to throw my hat in he ring. I, too, find this subreddit informative and it serves as the primary source of my Go news. I check Reddit several times a day. I like subscribing to a variety of niche subs. I wouldn't check a 3rd party source nearly as often.

              Google Groups is so bad, it would deter me from checking up on Go entirely.

              [–]esimov 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I became familiar with reddit for getting the golang related news. In fact it is the first source of information for me, so definitely i won't be very happy if /r/golang will be deleted.

              [–]passthejoe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The fact that the Reddit CEO's situation is being brought to light is better than what's happening on n other social media platforms.

              Reddit is a welcoming place for technical discussions, and I hope /r/golang remains here.

              [–]jwcrux 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              While there are many reasons a language can get popular, community is a huge one.

              Gophers did a great job building genuinely helpful communities "where the people are", and this sub is no exception.

              I don't like what the CEO did either, but getting rid of this subreddit won't do anything except alienate a thriving community for which a current replacement doesn't exist.

              [–]thewhitetulip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              and a replacement probably won't exist.

              [–]tyrionlannister 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Make an alternative first, and hand off to the community. Don't just delete this or mark it private.

              One of the things we like about Go is its focus on stability. If the team follows its own design philosophy with respect to its community, it should focus on a smooth transition for the 25,000+ members to some other platform for discussion.

              You'll still lose some along the way, but even if you value this change more than your community, at least try to keep what you can in-tact.

              [–]w00teh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Please don't delete this place. Reddit is how I get a large amount of "new" info about things I'm interested (Go being one of many of them). Without this subreddit, I'd have one less way to lurk and still find interesting information & projects easily.

              [–]fungussa 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I hope something as irrational as Brexit doesn't happen here :(

              [–]SilentWeaponQuietWar 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Ya wouldn't it be a shame if people started injecting politics into technical programming discussions? ಠ_ಠ

              [–]julionc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              it seems the guy has a lot of free time.

              [–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

              If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

              [–]tscs37 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Pls do, this needs attention.

              [–]evanbyrne 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Honestly this would kill the Go community for me. I certainly won't be going over to the Google board, where average people are described as "a wretched hive of scum and villainy" and "toxic". I am certainly tired of comments like these being made by some of the leaders in the Go community. Seriously, the leadership needs to get a grip. Being able to see opinions we strongly disagree with from time-to-time on Reddit and not going nuclear does not make us "toxic" people.

              [–]justf_rtheupv_te 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm in favor of keeping the subreddit. We shouldn't bail for purpose of politics. Although, I do like how pretty this alt is: https://golangnews.com/

              [–]sdreyesg 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Man, consider the CEO is not modifying the whole reddit. Also, have content in this subredfit been modified?

              Finally, ego aside the open source community benefits a lot of this sub reddit. Think about the children, man.

              [–]kaeshiwaza 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Yes ! I will be productive again !

              [–]SilentWeaponQuietWar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              fine, keep nudging me towards .net core... I've been fighting for go at work, but it keeps getting g harder and harder to stand up for. because of .... politics and mod management? fml

              [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

              [deleted]

                [–]mwholt -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                For what it's worth, we don't edit people's posts at the Go Forum. (At least, not secretly -- any edits are constructive and are for formatting, etc, and publicly visible).

                [–]jcaustin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                (At least, not secretly -- any edits are constructive and are for formatting, etc, and publicly visible).

                Why edit someone's post?

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