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SeriousWW2 Nazi-German Army vs. Modern German Millitary Forces (self.whowouldwin)

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[–]stalker007 15ポイント16ポイント  (17子コメント)

The German Air Force alone could probably solo this.

And that isn't saying much as the current German Air Force is a complete mess right now.

[–]ocha_94 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

That's 50 operational planes (with quite a few more that could be made operational shortly, anyway), with a few hundred missiles and bombs? I wouldn't hold my hopes up, they'd face thousands of aircraft and vehicles, millions of men... If they can't get more equipment they may not be able to do it.

[–]stalker007 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The operational planes wouldn't be in any danger whatsoever, they can fly higher and faster, and decimate from ranges of miles away.

Completely different warfare.

[–]BojackToddman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Luftwaffe couldn't even break London, a single fucking city during the Blitz.

And now Germany has radar guided computer controlled AA flak guns...

[–]gunchar16 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

Uhm there are over 400 operational planes(who alone will do extreme damage), and helicopters and drones. Also are there douzens of manufacturers, the police(especially special forces), the reserve force, and much more.

Its a miracle to me, that anyone can honestly think that Nazi-Germany could have any chance (even Austria would win this).

[–]ShortenedLogic -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

What is extreme damage. I think you are forgetting a famous Little gun called the flak 88 which will take a dump on helicopters and drones, while Jets can't take off because of bombed airfields... Also I'm not even sure how you could think the police can take on a professional army...

[–]BojackToddman 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

No radar, relies on human line of sight, helicopter/drone with night vision destroy it with a radar/laser guided hellfire 8km away in the dead of night while the human operator is blind.

GG.

[–]Yetanotherdeafguy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jets take off before fields get bombed- early warning systems. They bomb flak. Helicopters support ground forces. GG, WP.

Also, some jets have VTOL

[–]gunchar16 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know that the Nazis would have already big problems, to fight in the dark and how exactly should the flak win against drones...

So first of all your professional army is complete outdated and even the normal police has with the mp5 a better weapon, second there could be a reason why i mentioned special forces(who are vastly much better, than a average soldier from the 3.Reich).

[–]ocha_94 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, sorry, but anyway it's 210 combat aircraft, and from what I've heard about half won't be operational until a few weeks have passed.

I stand by what I've said (for now anyway), without prep time moden Germany will have a hard time, unless they can drag on the war. Only the combat aircraft will be virtually invulnerable to AAA. Helicopters and drones can be destroyed, especially when used on the offensive.

And Germany simply doesn't have enough ammunition or means to produce it now, although it wouldn't take them a lot to start producing.

[–]gunchar16 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uhm Germany has a insanely big amount of ammunation, they just dont use it for the military(you know that germany is the 3.place for weapon exports worlwide, right?).

Also is technology not just weapons, the modern army would always exactly know where the enemy troops are, has much better logistics, all weapons are also faster, have much more range and do much more damage.

You cant rly dont know how much more advantaged even the 70s were, in compairson to the 40s.

[–]Hedg3h0g2 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Would they? It's always been a wet dream of generals to win wars purely through air superiority, but that did shit to win the syrian civil war and did shit to win vietnam......

People say technological advancement but it's not like guns and tanks from that period don't function, i mean guns from that period are still being used today. I mean the AK 47 was made in 1949 and is still prominent in underfunded militias/armies everywhere. In a prolonged war over a neutral populace with no intervention from anyone i'd give it to the wehrmacht, 40+ times the personnel and many times the equipment just means they got a deeper well to draw upon and the ability to just overstretch the Bunderswehr. And once the war grinds down to a slugfest over population centres, the 6.5 million strong and extremely experienced wehrmacht can just grind the 160 000 bundeswehr soldiers, only 60 000 are in the army, the rest of which being support, medical, airforce and navy personnel.

Especially when we don't know for how long modern german army can even keep up air campaigns.

[–]tjhovr 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

but that did shit to win the syrian civil war

But the side with air supremacy is winning the civil war. Air supremacy is why gaddafi got toppled.

did shit to win vietnam

It was political failure that lost vietnam. Air supremacy allowed the US to have an absurd kill:death rate with the vietnamese.

In a prolonged war over a neutral populace with no intervention from anyone i'd give it to the wehrmacht, 40+ times the personnel and many times the equipment

What good that did the iraqi army...

I don't think you understand how much more advanced military technology has gotten since ww2. The destructive power increased exponentially. A single squadron of jets would take out the entire ww2 air force. You can't compare modern jet fighters with ww2 fighters. A ww2 fighter plane would be shot down before they could even see an enemy jet fighter.

[–]Hedg3h0g2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the side with air supremacy is winning the civil war. Air supremacy is why gaddafi got toppled.

Not at the rate that this subreddit tells you they should. Russia-Syria has complete air superiority as well as a good ground situation and they're still grinding against the opposition for what feels like forever.

It was political failure that lost vietnam. Air supremacy allowed the US to have an absurd kill:death rate with the vietnamese.

Yes, and that still wasn't enough. If the USA stayed in that war forever they'd probably win, but it does tell you that even years of air superiority won't win you the war, and i doubt the Bundeswehr has the ordinance for years of air superiority. Oh and the US K/D in vietnam, if you count the south vietnamese etc. on the side of the us is far from massive, unless you count civilian deaths as US enemies.

What good that did the iraqi army... I don't think you understand how much more advanced military technology has gotten since ww2. The destructive power increased exponentially. A single squadron of jets would take out the entire ww2 air force. You can't compare modern jet fighters with ww2 fighters. A ww2 fighter plane would be shot down before they could even see an enemy jet fighter.

That's why i didn't bring up the ww 2 german airforce. My argument is that just hte numerical advantage on the ground would be enough. As for the iraqi army, the iraqi army faced the coalition force of hte free world and surrendered en masse without real fighting. Oh and the ground situation wasn't even a big numerical superiority for the iraqis, manpower wise.

[–]stalker007 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The German High command wouldn't know what hit them.

Big bombs and laser precision.

We can bunker bust just about any WWII fortification, cause major leadership issues etc.

Not counting Thermobaric weapons that could decimate conventional WWII personnel.

Shock and Awe.

[–]Hedg3h0g2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

For how long though? For how long could the bundeswehr, in it's current state sustain an all out war. And if it's not long enough to wipe out an army 40.5 times the size, then it's not long enough. Don't get me wrong, i see massive, massive losses on the side of the wehrmacht, but eventually the numbers game would just play out in their favour, the bundeswehr would run out ordinance, they'd suffer casualties on the ground that they couldn't replace, and the wehrmacht would employ irregular forms of warfare following the initial clashes making air support less effective.

I'm not saying the bundeswehr wouldn't inflict massive casualties, i'm saying they wouldn't be able to keep it up long enough and eventually would take enough combat casualties that'd cripple it's already small manpower.

[–]stalker007 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know, I don't disagree, but that's like thinking wehrmacht would be blood lusted.

I'm thinking the opposite. Heavy leadership losses and a bunch of intimidating losses due to heavy bombs they can't comprehend and its game over and we see a Nazi German and Modern German unification.

You take out a hefty portion of the SS and Nazi party, and you have to wonder wtf goals WWII Germany has after their ideology is gone.

[–]HigherPrimape 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Considering how awful nazis were at logistics and fighting wars, they'd somehow lose a mirror match.

Throw in a few decades of advancement and this feels like a spite match, which is cool because fuck nazis.

[–]ShortenedLogic 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You can't call an army that took on half the world and would've won if uncle Sam didn't join in shit at fighting wars.

[–]HigherPrimape 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Half the world?

What? They couldn't even beat the Russians who just had a fucking purge + despite outnumbering them by a bout a million during the initial push in the operation.

A shit army is one that doesn't know what logistics or reliable equipment means. The wehramacht had that level of stupidity in spades.

[–]Imperium_Dragon 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Nazis were horrible at many places. Look up North Africa. You hear all about how "Rommel was so great," yet in reality he acted like a colonel when he was supposed to be a Field Marshal. In Europe and the Soviet Union, the Germans had a horrible track record of logistics. Hell, the Germans had the highest number of animals of any WWII combatant in Europe in their army.

[–]niczar 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Modern warfare is largely about logistics. Without setting up the theater of operations, it's rather impossible to answer.

[–]Ivan-Trolsky 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everyone in this thread is overlooking a very obvious detail.

Is this Nazi Germany from 1939? or 1945? Are we including every single tank, soldier, and aircraft Nazi Germany ever produced all at the same time? or only at one given time period (say 1939)?

Because Nazi Germany may have built 60,000 aircraft throughout the entire war but they only had about 1,500 at any one time.

And what about modern Germany? Are they allowed to build more equipment and recruit more troops or are they stuck with what they have?

Before these questions are answered I don't think anyone is coming up with accurate conclusions.

[–]nkonrad 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Knowing this sub when it comes to history, they're probably using composite Germany.

[–]Ivan-Trolsky 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They probably are, which makes the point of saying "Nazi Germany could beat modern Germany" kind of moot since the mythical Nazi Germany they are talking about never actually existed at any point.

If Composite Third Reich just came out of nowhere with 20 million soldiers and 60,000 aircraft I think the answer in this thread is kind of obvious. It wouldn't even be remotely fair for Modern Germany.

But if this is the Third Reich during Operation Barbarossa and Modern Germany gets at least a few days of warning I think Modern Germany would stand a very solid chance at repelling the invasion.

[–]PuruseeTheShakingCat 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

If the Germanies get prep, then modern Germany propably takes this. The Bundeswehr had obligate military service until 2011, the number of former military personnel is probably quite significant. It would be relatively easy for them to dredge up a significantly larger military force than they currently have, which would massively reduce the current numbers disparity. Nazi Germany, OTOH, was already fully prepped for war -- they don't gain much from extra prep time.

However, if this is Nazi Germany at any point vs only the current Bundeswehr, I don't think modern Germany has the numbers to do this. The Bundeswehr as a whole has like 180,000 people. The Heer has only like 60,000. In 1939, the Heer alone had 3,000,000. At its height it had 10,000,000. The Bundeswehr can win every battle, but when they keep getting just outmaneuvered they can't effectively defend.

[–]gunchar16 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uhm you know which technologys we have nowadays right? Its a complete shitstomp, even for Austria...

[–]Morene_Darkstar 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Technological advancement is more important than raw numbers. It's a sweep for modern Germany

[–]Yetanotherdeafguy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You forget intelligence. With satellite tech, modern Germany could bomb the command bunkers, supply depots, fuel storage and munitions of WW2 era Germany. With no logistics, command or control, modern Germany is stronger than you'd think.

[–]Agastopia 4ポイント5ポイント  (17子コメント)

I'm actually going against the grain here and I'd say it's an absolute stomp for the Nazis.

The Nazis had 13 million soldiers, right now it looks like Germany only has 60,000...

Nazis still had tanks (more of them than the modern Germans) and planes. The pure number advantage makes this a slaughter, no matter the advantages modern technology gives them.

[–]BojackToddman 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Numbers don't mean much when they all starve because every railroad is suddenly bombed, farms are napalmed, oil and gasoline is in short supply because every oil well and refinery went up in flames, factories go up in smoke.

The Nazis were already suffering major logistics problem before they faced a enemy with laser guided bombs that can destroy important strategic targets.

Sure if you put both armies on a open field and have it go at each other maybe the Nazi could win but otherwise the Nazi starve to death as germany slowly begins to destroy any way the Nazis have to feed, clothe and arm themselves.

[–]Thu_um 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

I doubt that a ww2 plane could ever shoot down a modern day jet.

[–]Agastopia 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

1v1? Of course not.

60,000 fighters vs 300?

I'd say so.

[–]BojackToddman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

In what fantasy world do you live in where germany's airforce has to go mano en mano with every single Nazi plane in the sky?

Here's what happens. The Luftwaffe can't engage german airforce. A couple days into the war, german airforce scouts all airbases, ammo dumps, runways, railroads, oil refinery and all the other essentials of war and destroys them with laser guided bombs.

The Nazi war machine grinds to a halt as every railway line grinds to a halt, every major road is suddenly a giant target practice, every oil refinery or storage goes up in flames and every airplane is grounded due to a lack of intact runways.

[–]Thu_um 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah but the ww2 planes would never even be in range to shoot them since the jets could just use long range missiles. The ww2 planes can't even defend themselves against those.

[–]Burns_Cacti 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

The modern German military literally does not have enough missiles to shoot down 60,000 fighters.

[–]BojackToddman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

They don't need to shoot down any fighters. Runways and airbases are important for a reason.

A few days of air sorties later, all of Nazi germany's airforce are grounded as every airbase and runway in the country have been bombed to rubble.

[–]Thu_um 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but if the amount of ammunition is limited they don't have a chance anyways.

[–]Agastopia 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I doubt they even have 60,000 long range missiles in their Jets

[–]Dorocche 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They only need enough to take out the runways and bases.

[–]gunchar16 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Uhm thats more than 60000 in your link, and there is no need for much soldiers against such technology(there are even atom bombs in modern germany).

[–]Agastopia 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

US atom bombs, not German ones

[–]gunchar16 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

And what exactly do you think would happen, if there would be need for them?

[–]Agastopia 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

If they can use our weapons then we might as well give them NATO too haha. I doubt they're authorized to use them without us

[–]gunchar16 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

First of all theyre authorized, to use them if there is an attack...

Second who exactly should stop them if they want to use the bombs, the us army base with a whole country against them(who are also have the logistics for them)?

[–]Agastopia 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Source? I doubt that, the US troops may be but I doubt Germans are

[–]gunchar16 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuklearwaffen_in_Deutschland "Im September 2015 wurde bekannt, dass die USA 20 neue amerikanische Atombomben vom Typ B61-12 in Büchel deponieren werden, welche deutlich zielgenauer sind, als die bisher dort gelagerten.[62] Im Kriegsfall sollen deutsche Tornado-Piloten die Angriffe mit den US-Bomben fliegen. Maria Sacharowa, Sprecherin des russischen Außenministeriums, erklärte:[50]„Uns beunruhigt, dass Staaten, die eigentlich keine Atomwaffen besitzen, den Einsatz dieser Waffen üben, und zwar im Rahmen der Nato-Praxis der Nuklearen Teilhabe. Das ist eine Verletzung der Artikel 1 und 2 des Vertrages über die Nichtverbreitung von Atomwaffen.“"

It means in english: theyre authorized if there is a attack(the US even insisted on it), their also train it(and russia complains about that).

And even without this, would it be impossible to stop them to do it.

[–]BojackToddman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

To put things into perspective, any modern soldiers with a shitty RPG is going to be a threat to any WWII tank, whereas any modern tank is going to largely invulnerable to any WWII tank gun and it will probably take 10:1 odds for any WWII to take on a Leopard 2 tank.

And that's assuming that a Leopard would stay and fight instead of using it's superior speed and mobility to endlessly kite and harass .

[–]ShortenedLogic 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Holy shit people, you seriously think that modern Germany stand a silver of a chance? Nato ran out of bombs against Libya and you expect those planes to take on the luftwaffe of old? While modern German tanks are far superior to ww2 era tanks APCs still continue to have paper armor, the swarm will blitzkrieg the shit out of the tiny army of germany. Modern technology doesn't make you immune to bullets, the Nazis didn't take half of europe because they had a shitty army.

[–]gunchar16 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great another guy, who dont understands the insane technology advantage here...

Satelites, laser targetting, computers, logistics, drones, range, etc... These things alone give the Nazis not even the slightest chance.

[–]ocha_94 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Can Germany get more equipment, and especially ammunition, before the war? Because in their current state, nazi Germany would probably win, their army was fully mobilized, while current Germany is not prepared to wage a war like that. Only chance Germany has is hiding their actual numbers from the nazis, because nazi morale would be extremely low after the first few crushing defeats against vastly superior technology. Nazi propaganda wouldn't be able to hide this enough, and with well planned attacks Germany stands a small chance.

Give current Germany a couple of years of prep and they stomp, they'd have enough men and equipment to do it.

[–]gunchar16 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Uhm you dont know how high, the technology advantage rly is right?

[–]ocha_94 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I do. Germany doesn't have enough air to air missiles, MANPADS and other SAMs to gain air superiority against a nazi Germany that won't give up until they lose. That's why they can stomp with prep time, but will have a hard time without it.

Naval superiority goes to modern Germany, but they won't be able to use it a lot.

In the ground, modern Germany is ridiculously outnumbered. It won't matter if a Leopard is 100% invulnerable to most nazi tanks (and like 95% invulnerable to the rest) when they have tens of thousands of soldiers against more than ten million.

[–]BojackToddman 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Another guy who doesn't know the importance of airbase/airfield and runways. If doesn't matter if you have a trillions aircraft, you can't launch or arm or repair them if the modern airforce with the laser guided bombs keeps destroying your airbases/runways and laughs as your entire airforce rots in their hangar.

[–]gunchar16 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

@BojackToddman Exactly this, also is there a reserve of several million people(over 30% of all men(about 18) were in the Bundeswehr before 2011).

[–]lulz85 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt Nazi Germany could handle it. Modern Germany has them outgunned by a massive margin. The Nazis have numbers. But that's it.
I don't think WW2 aircraft have a chance against modern aircraft unless they manage to run into them. Same goes for the tanks.

[–]Imperium_Dragon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

While the German modern military is quite small, the German airforce can halt the Third Reich until the modern Germans can get their economy to produce enough leopard 2s and Typhoons to wreck the Nazis.

[–]CRISPY_JAY 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The Third Reich doesn't have the numbers to take this. They'd need, at least, a 5-1 to take this.

[–]Agastopia 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

What makes you say that? From what a quick google shows, it's more than a 5-1

[–]CRISPY_JAY 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's assuming they both spawn on top of each other scattered randomly in Germany (best case scenario).