上位 500 件のコメント

[–]VertigoHC -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would Frontier ban people from Elite? The game has a dwindling player base. Banning people would kill the game even faster! Here's why I never bought or played Elite.

  1. Unnecessary F2P MMO mechanics. Why does it take weeks of grinding to get ships? This isn't World of Tanks is it? Why can't I just pay real money to skip the grind and get the ship I want?

  2. Takes ages to get anywhere. Why is travel so slow? Why can't I pay real money to just be somewhere I want to save time?

  3. Shitty Atmo space flight simulator in space. Why do your space ships handle so bad?

  4. Developer incompetence; designing a game from the view of the least qualified to do so: the fans.

All of this I got from word of mouth.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S,M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

    • Not being respectful – Please edit your comment to replace/remove the disrespect so that it can be re-approved.

    If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification, or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!

    [–]TheMineosaur 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you for reporting this, update us on the situation and let us know if there is anything we can do to help.

    [–]CMDR_Frescador -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    What does "en masse" mean in this case? Sounds to me like they haven't taken action yet and will ban many CMDRs at once. Or does that simply mean all CMDRs involved in that one case? The latter wouldn't make much sense though as that isn't really "en masse" but more so "en one or two CMDRs at a time." Also, seems like the biggest piece of "evidence" of FDev's lack of investigation is based on the lack of video views and yet you yourself acknowledge that video evidence isn't necessary. That certainly doesn't completely let FDev off the hook, but that being the primary basis for the argument isn't enough to say they are blatantly lying. Just because you don't see results that doesn't mean they're not in the works.

    [–]PunishedMobiusPunishedMobius 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Post all you want. Nothing will be done.

    [–]nubbinz98 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    They should do what Eve does and make it so the spaceship last for 1 minute after logging / 5 minutes if logging in combat. No need to go overkill and ban someone, this will punish anyone combat logging and its not overkill again like a ban.

    [–]YamijiSolo for life 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It has been said many times already, that is impossible with the Peer to Peer network architecture Frontier decided to use for Elite.

    [–]pendulumss 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    and what about the abundant server disconnects?

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]StuartGTGTᴜᴋ 🚀🌌[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

      • Encouraging game-breaking mechanics, cheats or exploits is not allowed.

      If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification, or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!

      [–]foxisaac 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I mean, it also took them 2+ weeks to get to my support ticket at one stage, I'd say they're just stretched thin, Honestly, I'd say that if you're in an instance with another player, the logout time should be something like 30 seconds at least.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      This post isn't referring to the logout timer, which is "technically legitimate" according to Frontier.

      I'm referring to taskkilling/forced disconnections.

      [–]MasonSTLMasonSTL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      meeeeh careful with this. Though this isn't great on FDev I can see some problems with this experiment (though I prefer Wintergreen).

      As others have stated; mass bans are common practice and can take a few months between each wave. Also though they may not have looked at your video's is probably just because they had enough internal info against the alt, so they didn't want to wast time on redundant evidence.

      Not only that but I have seen the backlash of false positives from a quick harsh ban system, it's not pretty. #DolphinGate

      A true concern to me isn't that they aren't banning in a timely manner but that they just don't implement a system many other games have where if you logout/disconnect your avatar is still killable. Though this would really suck for players with spotty internet or the unfortunate possibility of a random power outage, it would pretty much solve the problem.

      [–]Huey-Laforet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Being Shadowbanned sounds like it might be kind of cool. You presumably get to refresh the quests without the risks of accidentally staying in open play. I'd be down for that.

      [–]piratejitBlueFalcon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Frontier not viewing the video doesn't really mean much. Chances are when it comes to cheating they will use data and logs from their servers. There have been fake videos in other games claiming players are cheating that aren't.

      One question I have is how many times did you report each account for combat logging? If you only did it a few times for each account it makes sense that nothing happened. I imagine from a technical standpoint all Frontier can see is if the players client stops communicating with their servers or not or exits gracefully. A small number of reports could easily be chocked up to bad internet or game crashes. I think it would have to be enough times to show the account regularly combat logs.

      [–]maximilianyuenMaximilian.Y 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      that's why open play is bad and empty. now it just confirmed bad and empty. No real difference.

      [–]Radeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Just implement Eve Online's logoff/aggression timer...problem solved ;)

      [–]pendulumss 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      let me know how that works out next you crash at a CZ.

      [–]VOATisbetter02 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Good to know. Maybe I will spend a lot of time in Open knowing I can log out any time I am in trouble! Wooooooo!!!! Wooooooo!!!!

      [–]PowetiPoweti 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Not defending anyone, but if their ticketing system allows for embedded videos, the videos could have been played a thousand times and not counted as a single view on youtube. This is due to the way youtube views are handled. Also going to point out that I believe one of the support team once said that they would only handle players after a number of reports came in, so I must ask how many accounts you used to report your alt account for combat logging.

      [–]noso2143 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      mean while as open burns with combat loggers ill just bask in glorious solo mode

      [–]L0ngdukd0ngR -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If they reduced rebuy costs from player encounters this wouldn't happen as much. In most MMO's there is no equipment damage or xp loss in those situations. E:D is totally dependent on the coin and you can easily be set back to square one. I can totally imagine someone combat logging if they've been griefed a couple times in a night. It might not be right but this is a game. People aren't too keen on losing hours worth of work from a random encounter they have no control over.

      [–]jesusHERCULESchrist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      but it stifles the rare emergent experiences that make the game more than a sterile grind.

      OK i've never played this game before, but if this line is really true then why the hell does anyone play it?

      [–]VandruisVandruis - Wayfarer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Asking the real questions

      [–]therealskeebySkeeby Zeebee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'll admit that I have done this combat logging once before I knew it was against their "policy". In retrospect though I agree with most of what you said.

      I would like to add though that before they bother putting resources into this, they have the glaringly obvious problem of stagnant gameplay.

      Most notably, it being next to impossible to afford upkeep on ships as a casual player (read as: any player not playing ED like its a second job).

      I know its one of the more volatile topics, but I'm sure most would agree this would not be as big of an issue if PVP'ing wasn't so detrimental. The ratio of risk/reward is way off and recovering from the loss of funds after a PVP loss for any casual player makes it pretty much pointless. I stopped playing on open for the most part recently because I just cant afford to fly the ships I enjoy flying with my available playtime.

      An hour or two of playtime a night should be more than enough time for anyone to maintain funds for upkeep. I don't need another job.

      [–]davedcneRodent Exterminator -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Great write up, good testing of claims and evidence!

      One minor note:

      Frontier conveniently maintains that they will not share any details

      This is industry standard. Your evidence stands on its own without implying that this is the great veil of secrecy. No company would want to open the door to exposing its internal decisions on security, or disciplinary action against accounts to the public.

      [–]Absalom_Taak 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

      And great work guys. You gathered evidence and presented it in a clear, objective way. This is the kind of thing that makes a community strong.

      [–]LadyRaineCloud 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      This is hilarious. The "Evidence" you provided is non existent.

      [–]Carroway_JCarroway 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Interesting collection of information, however it reeks of, what I would call, confirmation bias.

      This is less an investigation and more of a hit piece designed to make a person look bad or kill games, if that is what you want, hey by all means keep going, just don't be surprised if other players or Frontier will stop listening to you due to toxic and confrontative behaviour. Worst case scenario is, people will see your posts and not buy the game, meaning that Frontier will be forced to cease development of the title and then none of us will be able to play.

      To actually respond to your question. While they might not be doing anything about CL'ing, which is near impossible to do with the way that they've set it up, they are beginning to look into the systemic cause of why people do it, which is the consequence free nature of griefing.

      As it stands, as talked before, there is no punishment for people killing other players indescriminatly, you can discuss the minute details in regards to that being griefing. But it is part of the overall issue and CL'ing is a response to that.

      In that way they are starting to change things for the better, although it took a long time.

      [–]RedOctoberfestPoaArctica [Adle's Armada] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you really think the only situation where combat logging happens is when someone is being griefed, you have been reading the forums way too much. This is endemic problem with almost all combat PvP encounters, no matter what the difference in power is between players.

      [–]aholetookmyusernameA4K 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      1) If I were FDev I'd be very hesitant to discuss the methods used to determine and investigate CLing, as doing so would achieve nothing bar helping CLers get better at it.

      2) To those using PKing (often referred to as "griefing") and not really addressing the topic in the OP, I suggest you print out your posts and pick an oriface.

      PKing within the rules of a game never justifies cheating.

      Defending CLing (a form of cheating) on the basis of PKing is extremely poor form and TBQH anyone defending cheating should be treated with suspicion ingame.

      [–]dons90 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Great post, but I'd like to point out a part of the article by Frontier that you linked

      First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

      ...

      At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

      Based on this, it would seem that they want to do something about it, but haven't gotten around to it; and that was 2015.

      It's very much possible that they're making a note of current offenders and once they have a system in place to counter it, will retroactively apply punishments; though I slightly doubt it.

      Basically I haven't seen where they said they'd actually do something about it outright, so technically they aren't lying. The only point of contention is the claim that they reviewed the evidence and closed the ticket. Now, I wouldn't say that they're outright lying about this just because the view count didn't go up.

      If you google "what counts as a YouTube view", you'll find a few results explaining it, but I used this Quora thread as my source of information. Usually, a view only really counts after watching a significant portion of it. While the exact figure isn't known, it does allow Frontier some plausible deniability.

      It is possible that they did indeed watch a part of the video, and decided accordingly.

      Tl;dr Nothing is being done about combat logging as of yet; Frontier may not be lying

      [–]DipsoNORDipso 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Exept they accept submissions to be "investigated" confirm that said case has been "investigated" when apparently they haven't done anything.

      That is what OP considers lying, and I am inclined to agree.

      The problem here is that they probably don't feel that the issue is big enough to spend any significant amount of effort dealing with it. As such they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

      They can't go out and say, "no its fine, combatlog. Do it whenever you feel like it" and so they have slowly but steadily painted them selves into a corner here...

      [–]AscensiamFrijaz | Cheeky Rock Farmer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Wondering if they are debating what to say in this thread, if at all.

      [–]Alterate 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Is it really that hard to implement a system where your ship remans in space for 5 minutes after disconnecting?

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Elite works on a p2p network, so it's impossible.

      [–]CptCmdrAwesome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Not impossible, just a more interesting problem. A few of us on here were discussing seemingly workable solutions a while back - if anyone's interested I can try to find the thread tomorrow.

      IIRC you would have a pool of servers that each player sharing an instance pings periodically, and a pool of servers which imitate the client netcode of whoever logs. Player X and Y are in an instance, adjudication server (A) is informed by both parties, Y combat logs, X reports this to A, A confirms, sends a request to B (AI server) which connects to player X, takes over the running of Y's ship using game AI running at same combat rank.

      Or something along those lines. I mean sure, the devil's in the detail (what happens when A sees X and Y but X says he lost Y, which will happen legitimately and otherwise, etc ...) but that's the general idea. It was a long time ago and I've been drunk and slept since then, and honestly it's pointless throwing these kinds of ideas round while apparently there is no will to solve the problem. Just thought I'd chip in with that because P2P does not necessarily mean there is no technical solution (or at the very least, mitigation) to this.

      [–]atuarreAtuarre 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yeah, I really don't care about this. I don't PVP. I do get kicked out of the game quite often though, thanks to bugs in the recent updates, and if it weren't for this, I'd lose my ship every time.

      [–]LexMolochLexMoloch | war artist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      What does this mean?

      It means that FD support does not care about watching videos sent by players. :) That's actually helpful info!

      I strongly doubt they actually do anything regarding CL apart from "collecting data". They "collected data" on hackers/cheaters/script kiddies (using identifiable hacks) for a long time before they actually started banning them. Don't really think their policy on this would be harsher. On contrary.

      You actually needed to test this on a specific account for a long time and with many instances of actual combat logging. One week and few combat logs are not a viable sample.

      [–]NightKev 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Except with combat logging it's not like they need to make it hard for the hackers/etc to find out which part of their hacks are discovered and change them, so there's no need to do infrequent ban waves.

      [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Perhaps the emergent gameplay is rare because it's not 'worth it' to either or both parties?

      I personally don't care if people combat log, and I would strongly encourage more pilots to stay out of open play due to the lack of any reason to play in open at all outside of a desire to hand over control of one's enjoyment to a stranger on the internet.

      It makes no difference to me, as I don't play in open. I don't play in open because I learned very early on that the gameplay experience in open is simply not worth the added stress and risk vs. playing co-op in a private group with my friends.

      How do we address the real problem? That's pretty simple: reduce the risks and increase the rewards for normal players to bother with open play. You can ban and shadowban people all you want from open for daring to deny the pvp player their satisfaction - but this isn't the right approach to encourage people to participate in an otherwise stark, bleak galaxy.

      [–]playzintrafficPlayzintraffic 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Agreed! PvP killers get their sick satisfaction, while their targets get hefty rebuys. I'd understand if there were a commensurate reward for PvP kills, but that's just not the case.

      If insurance was 10% of what it is now, I wouldn't give a fuck. 900k for my Python? Okay, fine. I can make that back in several hours. 9M? That shit sets me back nearly a week.

      [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yup. I'm in a vette or conda and play exclusively for community goals when there's one that piques my interest. Otherwise I'm usually offline. No freaking way am I throwing 15m in risk on the table for some dickhead from the internet to set me back because he was loved too much as a child.

      [–]FletcherNorthDirk Adler (Simply Doing Combat) 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I used to be a pirate, I almost never killed anyone, after majority of my targets started combat logging rather than fight or give me some of they're cargo I joined SDC.

      [–]fatwithbeardBanandles -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Conclusion: It's just a game and your crew are tryhards.

      Frontier lied to you? So what. It's just a game and they don't owe you anything. Play another game maybe? No one is forcing you to play Elite, seems like CoD might be your style of game really Rinzler, I hear they have space ships now. Frontier has humored you because you and your friends buy paintjobs. They aren't trying to alienate people who give them money. They also don't have to have any urgency to help you, ESPECIALLY when you resort to tactics like this. Do I even need to mention that your player group lives to make people miserable in game? Have you considered how that might weigh into Frontiers decisions regarding stuff you're trying very hard to shove down their throats?

      Edit: Yes downvote a dissenting opinion, that is how you win arguments, by downvoting critics.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Cheaters are shit in every game. Elite Dangerous is no different. Stick to Mobius if you're too scared or bad to defend yourself in a MMO style game. Or just git gud.

      [–]fatwithbeardBanandles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Assuming I'm in Mobius. Read my comment again, and my other replies. I don't defend loggers. I disagree with your shit methods for trying to force change into a game you didn't make or own. Fdev says they have ways of working on bans, as other have pointed out in this thread they can implement them en mass, but they are not obliged to give you or your shit group any details at all. And with tactics like these, you certainly don't give them a reason to. Maybe its their way of telling you to "git gud".

      [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Frontier lied to you? So what.

      If you bought a bag of chips and when you opened it it didn't have chips in it, too bad. No one was forcing you to eat anyway. Go eat other things if you want food.

      [–]fatwithbeardBanandles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Food give you sustenance though, so the analogy doesn't work well. You don't need a game, but you can argue you do need food.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I don't like CoD, it's too arcade-y. MW2 was good though, I'll admit that.

      Thank you for the suggestion though

      [–]fatwithbeardBanandles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      MW2 was good. What I'm saying is your group likes pewpew, and that is fine, but Elite is a nuanced game where Open is not just there for folks like that. I have seen posts of various SDC players admitting fully that they find the seal clubbing fun, they derive fun from it, and that is also fine. CoD has that kind of game play.

      I don't like logging either, I'm not condoning it, but I am saying your methods are trash in trying to combat it. You need to REALLY put yourselves in the shoes of those who derive fun from random interaction in Open that doesn't end in ship destruction. You also need to put yourselves in Frontiers shoes, who are trying to run a business. You buy paint jobs, and even alt accounts to run stings, they will let you do that because it pays the bills. But you are also assholes to other players, and now you have been assholes to FD, don't expect them to jump and skip for your concerns. FD said they had methods to deal with logging, and they dont have to give anyone any details, its their prerogative as the creators and owners of the game. Unless there is some stipulation in the privacy policy you signed to play the game that says otherwise, they don't owe you shit.

      [–]omberOMBER 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

      To me Elite is mis-designed as an online title both from networking model and mechanics.

      • networking model is simply insufficient to provide seamless gameplay sharing between players causing instancing issues;

      • networking model is not designed in way which is compatible with game in which destruction of player property is impacting (like EVE Online); it is suitable for game in which destruction is not possible/non-impacting (World of Warcraft or PlanetSide 2);

      • gameplay mechanics do not lend themselves to cooperative play - for example missions cannot be completed cooperatively and rewards cannot be shared;

      • background simulation mechanic is unbalanced by online/private/solo modes;

      I know some will not agree with my view. I understand that Elite is a unique experience as it is first and foremost a space flight simulator (at least to me). I respect this, however I believe Elite is aiming to offer MMO (not MMORPG) experience without creating structure required for such. Elite does not need to be EVE, WoW or any other MMO offering, however we should not be re-inventing the wheel completely. A new product does not mean everything has to be developed from start and no old ideas must be used - old ideas which work should be utilized.

      [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well put. I agree with everything you've put here.

      [–]RingoFreakingStarrRingoStarr (retired) 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Oh my fucking god. Combat Logging is still a thing!!? That really grinds my gears because ED has the framework to be an amazing game. It is however shit like this that ruins it for me.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I know, it has so much amazing potential but it's just constantly being let down by shit like this :(

      [–]OldirtySapper 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Is it bad that I would prefer gamplay features and don't give a fuck about combat logging at this point. Instances so bad I can't PvP even if there was a point to it.

      [–]BaconShelfBaconShelf | Hudson | XB1 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Even as a Solo guy, I find this kind of practice to be kind of worrisome. Makes you wonder what else is being swept under the rug.

      [–]Einbrecher 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I've always wondered why they didn't take a page out of EVE's book regarding this - regardless of how you log, your ship stays in space, vulnerable, until a timer runs out. If someone is currently shooting you, the timer continues to reset until you're not getting shot at.

      To address the multiple ED play servers - if you try logging back in, you either log into Open and resume control of your ship, or wait out the timer until you can switch to Solo or Group.

      [–]NightKev 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I've always wondered why they didn't take a page out of EVE's book regarding this - regardless of how you log, your ship stays in space, vulnerable, until a timer runs out.

      Because of the networking model.

      [–]crimsonBZD 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I wanted to weigh in here and say that it's most likely that they are not acting on a single report and a single combat log.

      Put simply, if they did, then anyone's game crashes legitimately for any reason during combat, all that person has to do is send proof it happened and then they're shadow banned?

      You have to show a pattern here, and even then you have to be careful in case someone just has a shitty PC.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      "We take action wherever necessary, including a first time offence." - Frontier Support

      You have to show a pattern here, and even then you have to be careful in case someone just has a shitty PC.

      Most of these players also admitted to logging when questioned in-game, and screenshots of this were provided alongside the video footage in the tickets. And when we combat logged on each other with alt accounts, we all admitted to it in-game too.

      [–]crimsonBZD 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Clearly yes if you have them admitting it and especially if logs can confirm that.

      However, regardless of that statement, it would be ridiculous of them to ban for a single disconnect. A single proven case of combat logging, sure.

      I'm sure it's more likely that sorting through the requests, deciding which are legitimate combat logs, and simply waiting for more reports is a more likely scenario than them blatantly lying.

      Furthermore, they could just be collecting data right now pending a large ban wave in the future.

      [–]D-AlembertJ. Fisher 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I had a brush with what might have been FDev's shadowban system operating differently from the widespread assumption:

      For whatever reasons (firewall not in my control) FDev servers aren't very good at keeping in touch and I frequently lose connection. I was interacting with a CMDR in an area filled with other CMDRs. Mid interaction, there was a connection timeout at my end and the game booted me back to the menu. I immediately re-entered the game, but now, no-matter how long I waited there, no other CMDRs were being instanced with me, in an area I knew to be full of other CMDRs.

      I didn't investigate further, but it struck me that perhaps the shadowban system might simply be automated and time-based - eg the more you drop connection (while interacting with other players) the longer your instancing-system cooldown period is before you start getting instanced with strangers again.

      Like I said, I didn't follow up, but it was weird how CMDR instancing ended after I dropped connection. I recall that a few hours later, things were back to normal, but I don't recall how long that took.

      [–]Eddybeans -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Great job ! Hopefully FD makes a statement I hope you could do the same with FD lying about the non-possibility to port horizon to the mac ? :D On this they made no statement so far.

      [–]KappaOP 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

      This is unfortunate. I was planning on purchasing Elite by the end of the work week so I can start this weekend. There are tons of other games to buy if the Dev allows this sort of flaw to remain unaddressed...

      [–]PrismaticAuroraPrismatic Aurora 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      There's some issues yeah but you can still have fun for sure. If it's on discount join mobius and play with them. Lots of nice friendly people there.

      [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I hope this posts makes it up higher. There are lots of gamers, myself included, that won't throw money at something where the developer doesn't punish cheating. I've bought multiple cosmetic items and Horizons at full price but if this isn't addressed I'm done spending money here.

      [–]sathirran 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      meaningful interaction

      You mean griefing?

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Is PvP piracy griefing?

      If I kill an enemy that's undermining my powerplay system, is that griefing?

      If I kill a player at a community goal because he's a member of an enemy player group, is that griefing?

      If I kill a wanted player, is that griefing?

      [–]sathirran 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      If you kill another player, yes. Consider the consequences of your actions. If they're a poor player, you might force them to lose their ship and restart in a Sidewinder. That's not a "meaningful interaction." That's being an asshole for literally no reason than your personal misguided amusement. You can try to justify it to yourself all you want. It doesn't change the reality of the situation. I would never attack another player except in self defense, or defending a friend.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      you might force them to lose their ship and restart in a Sidewinder

      That's their fault for flying without a rebuy.

      So if I see a wanted enemy powerplay underminer in my control system, am I not allowed to attack them?

      [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Apparently there's a good chunk of the subreddit that thinks so.

      [–]EyymilyEyymily | 1024+ confirmed kills 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

      "instant transfers ruin immursion but combat logging is fine"
      "this game should be more difficult, but when another player attacks me, I log"
      E:D community 2016

      [–]Pave_LowTycho Dirge 9ポイント10ポイント  (13子コメント)

      I'm going to piss in everyone's cornflakes here, but I believe this is an extremely flawed post. Here are some things to consider.

      FDev wants to catch the habitual loggers and those who use it to their advantage.

      If someone logs once in their E:D career, it is unlikely that FDev would consider taking action. Action would only be taken if there is a pattern of abuse. Have multiple people complained about the pilot? Does his log out behavior show multiple suspicious log outs? In this case, none of your accusations were corroborated. In other words, there wasn't any evidence that the folks who logged had a pattern of that behavior. It is likely that support looked up the pilot, saw that he was not red flagged either by other people's complaints or by any automated process, attached the ticket to their account and then closed it.

      The review process for first-time offenders probably does not warrant viewing a video or a warning

      Even if the pilot combat logged with evidence, FDev would not take action against the pilot if they had never been accused of it before. Ergo, there was no need to watch the videos if they were not people on FDev's radar in the first place. In fact, with only a single accusation of combat logging they wouldn't even get a warning. Sending an email to a customer accusing them of cheating based on one other person's word is bad policy. Everyone would be accusing everyone else of something in the hopes of getting accounts warned or banned if the bar was that low.

      It is impossible/impractical to review video evidence of all accusations of combat logging

      If we assume that FDev gets 100 of these tickets a day, each with a 4 minute video attached, that's 400 minutes of footage. In order to review all that, it would require FDev to hire and pay for a full time person to do nothing but review combat logging footage. There's also no guarantee that the video on the other end has anything relevant in it. So much of that person's working day would be wasted. It is therefore likely that footage would be reviewed only when there is other reason to believe the person is a combat logger.

      FDev also tracks the people filing these tickets

      It would be unusual and unlikely for a single person to file tickets daily for combat logging. If someone habitually files tickets against other people, they will likely appear to have an agenda or ulterior motive (as it was in this case). That makes the claims less credible.

      The accusation that 'Frontier is lying' is based solely on the videos not being watched and the alt accounts not getting warnings

      And here's the flaw. If Frontier doesn't review videos or send warnings to first time offenders, and instead attaches the ticket to the accused account and waits until more evidence arrives, it is quite possible that Frontier is actually telling the truth. They did review the ticket. Since there was no corroboration with a previous event, there was not enough evidence to merit a warning, regardless of a supporting video. Therefore it was closed until another ticket flagging the player rolls in.

      The fact is we do not know FDev's review process for these tickets. But it's fair to say that a first-time logger would not get warned and certainly not banned. It is also fair to say that it is not practical for them to view all the videos that would accompany tickets, combat logging or otherwise.

      I doubt strongly that FDev will respond to this post because they do not want to reveal their internal policy on the matter. If they did, it would open a new can of worms of people pushing the limits of what they can and cannot get away with.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Actually it's your assessment that is flawed because it rests on numerous assumptions. The fact that this has been an unresovled issue of contention for as long as the game has been playable is also evidence enough that there is a fundamental mishandling by Fdev on the matter. You also assume wrongfully that all of the reports made in this effort were against first time offenders. Transparently, your ulterior motive is to manufacture a narrative that supports the idea that Fdev does not need to change how they address combat logging now, i.e. they don't need to investigate reports or warn/penalize offenders.

      [–]Pave_LowTycho Dirge 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

      numerous assumptions

      unresovled issue of contention for as long as the game has been playable

      That's not an assumption on either of our parts and it's not germane to the post anyhow.

      You also assume wrongfully that all of the reports made in this effort were against first time offenders.

      It is the responsibility of the one accusing FDev to show that. Not me.

      Transparently, your ulterior motive is to manufacture a narrative . . .

      Someone has been hanging around either on Tumblr or r/TheDonald waaaaaaaaayyyy too long.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Lol, you are placing burden of proof on me to disprove your unsubstantiated argument? Lol. Fallacy much?

      For your information I think Donald Trump is a piece of shit.

      [–]Pave_LowTycho Dirge -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      The burden of proof isn't on you or me. It's on the OP.

      FDev is not going to waste time running down every outside claim of combat logging because it's impractical and unreliable. But the OP never said that the tickets sent in were on repeat offenders - certainly the alt accounts weren't - and unless that's shown, there is a good explanation why the videos were not reviewed and warnings were not issued.

      The OP doesn't know how FDev handles these tickets and neither do you nor I. And they're certainly not going to tell us. You cannot prove a negative. It's like turning a key on the ignition and claiming the manufacturer lied to you when the car doesn't start. While it's possible that's true, it's also possible you don't have the car in park.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Again, another fallacy argument. You're comparing the situation to something it's not, and still resting your basis on assumptions. The largest assumption of all being there is no practical way for Fdev to address this matter of cheating-- despite nearly every other successful MMO style game having their own sufficient ways of dealing with it. There is no basis to conjecture that it's simply not possible to fix, which is what you're implying. Fdev simply isn't trying, and yes-- them saying they are constitutes a lie. You may not care, but that's you.

      [–]Pave_LowTycho Dirge 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Umm. Ok. I never said anything about any of those things.

      I stated that this 'test' does not prove the conclusion: that FDev is lying. I then proposed a rational second explanation, i.e FDev only reviews cases if their internal metrics show the player may be an abuser and it is really impractical for FDev to review every video that they get on a daily basis.

      In other words, there is a possibility that the test cases did not rise to a level of severity for FDev to pursue a warning or review the videos. And since nobody knows what data FDev has or what their criteria are it is plausible that there are other factors not taken into account by the OP that explain why FDev took no action.

      So at best FDev may be lying. That is counter to the hyperbolic and definitive tone of the OP.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Just go to r/Elitecombatloggers. You can see the proof of numerous repeat offenders not being reprimanded there. It's not even possible for us to prove that here with evidence due to this sub's combat logger-friendly policy of prohibition of "naming and shaming." Fdev does not penalize anyone for combat logging. Many people even recommend it here and on Frontier forums as a way to "escape griefing." Occasionally those threads get shut or moderated but not even consistently at all. Fdev patently is lying when they say they shadowban for combat logging. The proof has been around and building for years now.

      [–]HuttonOrbitalNoctrach 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You're right of course, the entire premise is fundamentally flawed because it's judging Frontier's policy and methodology pertaining to exploit reports based on the amount of views the attached videos got.

      Basing anything on this data is simply ludicrous, but people just enjoy getting riled up over this subject I guess :T

      [–]atuarreAtuarre 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I agree with everything you said bud. He's just angry. Earlier posts have pointed out that all he and his buddies do is grief. Perhaps it's time they found another game to play.

      [–]fatwithbeardBanandles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I have a pretty solid post in this thread pointing out that while logging is bad, so are they and their methods. I got downvoted to 0 from 7 or so. So yeah, they are cry babies who down vote opinions that don't reinforce their story.

      [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      What is "grief?" Shooting other players?

      [–]crimsonBZD 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This is most likely the case to be honest. It would be highly irresponsible for any game developer to penalize a player on a single report, and in the case of what is being reported, to do it for a single instance.

      So, if my game legitimately crashes for any reason during combat, under the system OP seems to expect if he submits a video with proof that I disconnected from the game mid-combat, I should receive a shadow ban and only be able to play solo from then on out?

      I can tell you, FD wouldn't ever get another cent from me if that happened.

      [–]Eco212 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I don't think it's a big problem - but damn, it's really hard to root for Fdev here. It's clear that they don't want to and aren't going to change it, they have their reasons. But they need to stop being afraid of their community and just say it. You can't just lie to your own playerbase, you will get found out in the end.

      [–]pendulumss 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

      So people evade your gank squads by combat logging? Big Whoop. Who cares? Who the F really cares?

      If they combat log, you legitimately know you won. Isnt that enough? You dont get anything from killing players. E.g. there's no loot and there's no money. It's just glory, and you get that when the person combat log anyways.

      Plus, what about the people that legitimately disconnect? The risk of getting blown up is pretty pricey. I'd rather have combat logging than having the risk of blowing up when i disconnect near a station.

      [–]atuarreAtuarre 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Watch out, he has his buddies down voting any post they don't agree with.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Who cares?

      • Legit pirates (like I once was)
      • Powerplay defenders/underminers
      • Bounty hunters
      • Newbie-killer hunters (AA)
      • Blockaders
      • System defense wings

      Take away all that meaningful PvP interaction and what are you left with?

      [–]pendulumss 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The only one that has an impact on the game is PowerPlay. You took such effort to see one side of this argument.

      Most other online games do take a more strict approach, but they are also online-only. This has never been a strict online-only experience.

      Do you know how many times I would have died because of random disconnects while I'm in a CZ or RES site?

      I'm not saying combat logging is a great mechanic, but you would see a whole lot more complaining about paying giant insurance bills if your ship sat there after unintentional disconnecting in combat. Could you imagine the griefing that could occur by triggering people to crash, which is a thing. We make wingmates crash all the time as a goof.

      [–]playzintrafficPlayzintraffic 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      You get a game of cat-and-mouse that doesn't rob anyone of millions of credits? My stars, what horror.

      [–]spacemind20SpaceGodzilla 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      You think piracy should not be a way to play the game?

      [–]playzintrafficPlayzintraffic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think rebuys are unfairly exorbitant for a game that does not facilitate any other kind of PvP economy.

      [–]SoleHunt3rSole | SDC | 1800 SIDEWINDERS KILLS -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Another reason to add, why i dont log anymore, the devs dont care and it's obvious. Way to go frontier.

      [–]PlankWithANailIn 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Meh, I count someone combat logging as a win, can't understand why people get so upset by it.

      [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Piracy, powerplay, and player bounty hunting are completely dead because of it.

      [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Piracy, powerplay and player bounty hunting are completely dead because the game does not support this gameplay. Could it? Probably, but it doesn't. Don't blame the player, blame the game.

      [–]CyborgNinja777 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      If you combat log, you should be forced to only play solo. You don't wanna fight? Okay, solo it is. I mean, if you're logging off its because you don't wanna fight players.

      [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I would openly support the removal of open play for all players with fewer than 500 hours logged on.

      [–]GuerreiroAZergGuerreiro Anfíbio | RSM | (x_x) 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Thank you for this post. I am away from Elite and this is a big reason to not come back.

      [–][削除されました]  (13子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]StuartGTGTᴜᴋ 🚀🌌[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

        • Encouraging game-breaking mechanics, cheats or exploits is not allowed.
        • Remove your last paragraph for comment re-approval.

        If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification, or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This. 1000% this.

        [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Cheating is widely despised in the gaming community. Banning cheaters is positive and would be welcomed.

        That said, no one should be perma banned for their first infraction, but a rolling escalation of account action is perfectly reasonable..

        First a warning, say you've done it 5 times in a given period, then account action if it continues, retriction to solo for example, and so on, and if folks continue to do it then a permament isolation to solo, if it still continues perma ban.

        Blizzard has no problems banning cheaters and hackers and neither should Frontier. Without doing anything they run the risk of losing players who play fairly and don't cheat. Which would you rather populated the game?

        [–]EmperorZoltan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Blizzard also has the benefit of a huge development team and stacks and stacks of money.

        And I don't think this is such an issue that people are willing to leave the game over. It may be the cherry on top / straw that broke the camels back , but Elite suffers from far greater issues than Combat logging.

        [–]jamfourJAMfour -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        How does the system distinguish players whom have a dodgy internet connection, or their PC / client crashes? It's shaky ground trying to figure out an automated system which is smart enough to know what caused their disconnection from the client side, and repeat instances don't necessarily mean the player is intentionally doing it.

        As referenced in OP: Frontier's claims that they can determine taskkills using their internal logs.

        [–]MeritzMeritz 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

        4) Frontier adds central authority server support for logging in and out of the game. You cannot log out until the server gives you permission to do so. All ships that drop connections are set to autopilot meaning the ship continues to operate as an NPC of the same level as player, and continue to do so for X minutes or until the player logs back in.

        This assumes that Frontier are capable of monitoring peer-to-peer networking and replacing disconnected players with an NPC version. This should be possible. And it would completely eliminate combat logging.

        This is also the only possible solution. Frontier may be lying or not, but until they implement this, combat logging is here to stay.

        [–]EmperorZoltan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        An interesting response. I feel like although this solution may go some way to adressing the combat logging issue, it does however present a huge technical challenge to avoid other types of potential abuse.

        For example, take exploration. If you want AI control, the server needs to continue modelling the state for your ship, which is computationally very expensive and currently performed client side. This could in turn lead to some exploits in exploration (think being safe in dangeous star systems because the AI controlled ship likely doesn't model temperature and gravity, only a simple path from A to B in the current system).

        I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say they're outright lying to us. Give the guys the benefit of the doubt, and try to keep in mind that it's not a simple pearl script to implement your proposed solution.

        [–]ManOfFlesh101Earth Ultimatum IV. | GCI 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

        You report someone, he's banned from Elite

        No, only from open.

        [–]EmperorZoltan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        mmmmm still extreme imo. Some ppl just don't like pvp but still want to live in the universe.

        [–]brokenhands 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        4) Proxy for player's ship is left in-game for the 15 seconds the logout timer would have held them for. If the proxy dies, they return to the rebuy screen.

        • It's fair

        Players whine about VAC bans too: but that's what happens to cheaters.

        [–]EmperorZoltan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Whilst fair, its also a solution that will absolutely result in far more raging than the current combat logging problem.

        Anyone who's ever had a crash or loss of internet connection during a key MMO fight knows exactly what the end result would be, and often these things are out of our control.

        [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Indeed, if we can land a man on the moon I'm pretty sure there is a technical solution to combat logging.

        [–]EmperorZoltan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        TIL Frontier have the same resources as NASA

        [–]CmdrHydronium 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Fight the good fight brother

        [–]Ioan92ADM I.Kolchak 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I think the only solution is to make deaths not as much of a financial burden. Perhaps include subscribe-able insurance per vessel at a REASONABLE price so each time you die you don't have to pay the rebuy. I just don't see how this can be fixed otherwise. You could in theory keep the vessel in-game for one minute after task kill but even this might not be enough to finish off some targets, not to mention this game has it's share of bugs and nonsensical game mechanics that sometimes do require a task kill.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yup, reduce risk and enhance reward is the correct solution to this problem. Sadly, that's difficult to code and they've oversold their capabilities already.

        [–]KazuloBRUNN 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Combat Loggers are multiplying in OPEN. Impunity is encouraging these cowards.

        [–]Stragemquezinovic [NL] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well as with most things the best deterrent is the fear of being caught and the punishment it would entail.

        I am torn in this. I don't like how this forces FDs hand possibly leading to reallocation of resources from current development to deal with this. On the other hand it has to be done at some point if change is to happen.

        [–]super_commuterJeros 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I admire your rigor, but can this experiment be repeated?

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Sure. Have a friend record you combat logging. Set the video to unlisted, have him submit a ticket, see what happens. Bet you'll get the exact same response.

        [–]super_commuterJeros 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm just saying, you need a larger sample size

        [–]BPOPRBlast McLargehuge 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I wish you people as much about actual issues as you do strangers alt-f4-ing video game.

        Jesus.

        [–]NightKev 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        So cheating is not an "actual issue"?

        [–]Thanix_GrayThanix Gray 40ポイント41ポイント  (10子コメント)

        You know, I don't feel super strongly about combat logging, but I do feel pretty strongly about lying to your customer base.

        Would have been better to originally say, "You know what, we aren't really concerned enough with this to spend resources managing it. Sorry."

        [–]XCNuseNuse 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The statement made by Sandro is near two years old. The game was barely out into the hands of the public at that point, let alone a huge userbase. Now said userbase is what, over 100k?

        There is nothing in the EULA or otherwise stated that "logging" is against any "rules," that I can find in-game at least.

        Just old comments on the forum relating to the subject.

        If anyone can prove me wrong, please! I would love to see anything. I just personally can't seem to find anything except the very very old post Rinzler shared at the beginning of OP.

        [–]APOC-giganovagiganova 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        No Man's Sky 2 confirmed.

        [–]HuttonOrbitalNoctrach 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

        The thing is that this post proves nothing except that Frontier didn't view the videos attached to the reports. This does not mean they did not file the commander names somewhere or looked at the netlog.

        Assuming they would shadowban or even warn an account for only a handful of offenses is ludicrous.

        I would be impressed with this "research" if they had taken the time to report a single alt account combatlogging numerous times for a long period of time, as it stands I'm simply impressed by the amount of words wasted on this issue.

        [–]RedOctoberfestPoaArctica [Adle's Armada] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They specifically ask for video evidence and us to file tickets though, it's obvious nothing is being done. Keep in mind, FD support has even sent warning emails to people having boble-heads spell naughty words. Looking at netlogs is also meaningless as the P2P nature of the game makes it more or less impossible to ascertain from network information what actually happened with the client.

        [–]piratejitBlueFalcon 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        This is exactly what I thought. With the way the game works a few cases for combat logging would look like many innocent problems. You would have to show some one is consistently combat logging to have much of a case against them.

        [–]Ornlu_WolfjarlOrnlu of Communism Interstellar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Still OP has a point (not just about Frontier but for all developers of online games). If you are going to police an online game to make sure no cheating is done, then you have to do it right, and refusing to release data regarding what happens with cheaters is outright ridiculous. At the very least the parties involved should be informed of what happened. The cheater should get an email of warning or punishment and the one doing the reporting should get an email telling them what they did with the cheater. Or maybe FDev just releases a monthly report "This month we banned 5 accounts for combat-logging, last month it was 12, so we are doing something right". At least then you'd know something has been done.

        Instead, they say in that last email that "we take action even for first time offences, but we don't disclose that action". That is just PR-speak for "we like to give the impression of doing something, but whether we are actually doing something or not is another matter".

        Also, these weren't just simple cases of innocent disconnects. The combat loggers admitted in chat that they did in fact combat log. FDev also actively encourages people to send them video evidence and that they take all reports seriously. Not viewing the videos is the opposite of taking reports seriously.

        At the very least the perpetrator accounts should get a warning. Even for accidents, you should get a notice that someone reported you and given warning that if more reports come in for other incidents, you might end up being banned. That's what "seriously" means. Not "meh, unless more cases are reported we won't look into it".

        [–]Sparkybear 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Refusing to release data about detection methods, data collection, logging, and consequences is part of preventing cheating, botting, and other exploits.

        It's the reason that MMOs don't ban people one at a time, and if they do then it's for a 'benign' reason such as manipulation of the in game economy or maybe being tied to an currency selling service that's against the TOS.

        For everything more serious, hacking, botting, exploiting, they do ban waves. If you ban 1 user at a time, it means the creator of the tool has time to review their tool, find the vulnerability, to fix it almost immediately. Congratulations, you've banned 1 user and now the 100 others using the tool are not detectable because the issue was fixed by the creator of the tool.

        If you collect all the users using the tool and ban all of them using that method after a few months, then you've banned almost everyone using that method of cheating and not given the creator the time to fix the issue.

        So no, it's not just PR speak for 'we're pretending to do something about it', it's a way of controlling the information available to creators of various tools that are against the ToS. I used to work for one of those creators for one of the original MMOs, and the cat-and-mouse game played between the developer and the bot creator was a very interesting one to watch.

        [–]VOATisbetter02 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

        file the commander names somewhere

        Oh no, anything but that!! lol

        [–]RhaedasRhaedas 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Or more honestly, given the structure of the game and the network it uses, there's no good solution to this at this time.

        Of course there's the logoff timer and the lack of a standard reset upon ship hits, that IS an easy fix that I can't see any objection towards, outside of someone using it for escape. Yes, they can just kill the process, but at least the game itself isn't allowing you to avoid a fight.

        [–]Sparkybear 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They have said exactly that multiple times. It's almost impossible to distinguish between a forced, intentional combat log and an accidental disconnect. Even if a pattern emerges, those instances could be unintentional, resulting from the P2P connection failing due to some issue on an individuals local network connection.

        Honestly, I'd prefer they don't punish people too harshly for these disconnects as I'm not convinced the number of intentional instances is high enough to warrant a blanket response. It would more likely punish 10 people who have experienced disconnects unintentionally to the 1 who is abusing combat logging.

        [–]Sardunos 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Put this on the main forums if you haven't already.

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It's been up for a bit over there. Actually getting a much better response than reddit https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/309972-An-investigation-into-Frontier-s-actions-on-Combat-Logging/

        [–]gaplant-tr5 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        "PvP piracy Powerplay undermining defense/attacks Inter-faction warfare Player bounty hunting Hunting newbie-killers Blockades System protection" seal clubbing punishing players for being new punishing players for not flying fully outfitted pvp meta builds in wings mocking players who don't play open mocking players who don't play just like them

        you can write in your pseudoscientific style all you want, like some kind of TV scientist character, but you aren't "proving" anything here- you're just formatting and styling up another rant about a video game.

        I think you oughta send this to every "media site" and see if it does anything. I'm not sure how this is any different then posting it on reddit. How is this not already public? Are you seriously threatening Frontier with... CROSSPOSTING?!?

        [–]Daedelous2kDaedelous 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Perhaps players should get a stacking "Good Sport" award for not combat logging if they are killed. Stacking up to.........insurance benefits?

        Incentivize them to stay logged in rather than plugging like wussies.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        ...or just punish combat logging and publicize the number of loggers punished every month as a deterrent?

        [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I suggested this to Zac when I spoke to him sometime ago, he was not very enthusiastic about it. Although he did say he took onboard my point about the ridiculously low logout timer period.

        That all said, nothing has changed.

        [–]Arkanis106 -1ポイント0ポイント  (14子コメント)

        I guess it sucks when assholes get the same treatment in return?

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

        Yup, it's not enough for them to not have any consequences at all. They need for you to have consequences for escaping them. Narcissism much?

        [–]spacemind20SpaceGodzilla 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You think combat logging is escaping? LOL

        [–]Arkanis106 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

        It's just typical PVP community crying and whining. If they don't win everything 100% of the time, it's unfair, broken, and everyone else's fault. You see it in every game, sadly.

        [–]ConcernedInScythe 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

        Funnily enough they're very friendly towards people who can actually beat them.

        [–]Arkanis106 -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Actually nobody from SDC has ever killed me, funny enough. Sundae tried and failed miserably last October. I mean, he's fucking terrible, that's why.

        [–]CMDR_RivertideRivertide -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Sundae tried and failed miserably last October.

        But he clearly made an impression on you, seeing as you remember it!

        [–]Arkanis106 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I'm just really, really smart. I remember lots of things.

        [–]ConcernedInScythe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        what is your intelligence quotient as determined by standardised testing

        [–]KinmobKinmob, SDC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah, but I'm really, really, really smart. Get fucked! ~Mensa 2016

        [–]jonesing1987James Hawken 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Never heard anyone that is actually very smart refer to themselves as 'Really, really smart'

        [–]ConcernedInScythe 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        i will literally pay to see you beat sundae 1v1

        [–]Arkanis106 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        When did I say I could kill him? I just trade and explore. He's just too unskilled to kill a Type-9 before it gets away.

        [–]ConcernedInScythe 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        it's basically true, sundae couldn't kill his way out of a wet paper bag

        [–]cmdrFranktankFranktank -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        GO AND PLAY BATTLEFIELD!

        [–]ogge125STARBOYY 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Go and play mobius.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I already do

        Thank you for the suggestion though

        [–]LazerusKI -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        oh, are you surprised about that? honestly, before they start banning people, they need to fix their combat balance (where we now have informations for). they need to fix bounty-exploits that for some reason no one cares about, even though they are much worse than logging. they need to improve their P2P connection because i personally got kicked from the game whenever it tried to connect me with another player - looked like logging. seriously...banning people in this game would be a bad bad choice. logging isnt a nice thing to do, but seriously, does it really hurt that much? a bannable exploit for me would be for example the old in-station griefing, but not logging.

        [–]atuarreAtuarre 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        He doesn't care about any of that. He just wants something he think is an issue fixed.

        [–]CaptainHoytHoyt | 1st social Justice Warrior Fleet | Xbox | 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I think we know what /u/Jonticles does for a job.

        And nice investigation into frontiers views of Combat logging. Maybe now that they have been caught out they will actually do something about it.

        [–]longbowrocks 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

        So what do we call the new movement?

        Before, there was Operation SpicyBois.

        How about Operation SpookyBois for this one? Everyone flies a shieldless sidewinder, and immediately combat logs if they get shot at.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Internally we referred to it as "Operation WatchLogs"

        [–]longbowrocks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That sounds even more fitting this time around.

        [–]DreamWovenDream Woven 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I've said it before and this is further proof. Fdev never really wanted to make an mmo, never geared the game or themselves up for it either. Elite dangerous should just be treated as a solo game experience. It's not an mmo and the only pvp fdev want is by gentleman's agreement.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        the current tech they used would be perfectly suitable for solo and co-op. If that's the budget they had, they should have stuck to it.

        [–]Cmdr_Bosley 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They said they would apply the punishment en mass they didn't say when.

        [–]Got_no_fans 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And you're surprised??? People write on the official forums that they combat log. There is a CMDR Rhymerhyme that states on the OFFICIAL forums that he combat logs. FDeV don't say anything. Call them idiots on the other hand a you get a reply off Brett telling you to essentially STFU.

        [–]AmethystWarlockCinaed 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        inb4 claims that youtube just didn't recognize their views gaiz

        [–]Gooblibloo 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

        I hope the mods don't try to shut you down for fighting the good fight.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S,M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Those fucking nazi mods, I swear...

        [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        The mods are fucking terrible. Btw, post removed cause fuck you

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The mods are fucking terrible.

        Hey, we agree on something!

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S,M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        reported

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        OP is a mod.

        [–]MidanthropeMax Hubris 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        All of these posts getting side tracked and talking about combat logging, crime and punishment. Talking about everything except the really appalling and unacceptable aspects that have been brought to light by the investigation. The company LIED. They are more than happy to lie to you, in order to appease and quiet your criticisms of an exploit. They are more than happy to let you waste even more of your time potentially, as by all the evidence presented, there is no effort spent in investigation and viewing evidence THEY ASK YOU TO PROVIDE.

        Regardless if you care about combat logging, the company lying to you is an issue that broaches basic foundations of a relationship. As a consumer, and an expected repeat customer, I expect that when a company gives me information for recourse and details methods to assist in making the product I enjoy better, I expect that my time is not being wasted and the methods prescribed are not in fact a giant fallacy to make me feel warm and fuzzy.

        Without an official statement that completely satisfies all aspects of the evidence presented, or an unqualified mea culpa, my only recourse will be to voice my displeasure in a way that I am certain Frontier Developments can understand. That will be with my wallet. I hope that it does not come down to this and I urge all of you reading this thread to consider the dishonesty, not from the aspect of it being applied to combat logging, but apply it instead to a facet of the game which directly affects an aspect of the game you enjoy. A company lying to it's consumers left unchecked will not go away, it will only expand the scope.

        [–]harweeOddPotato 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Good luck, shadow banning every player who combat logs restricting them to solo or private group, then proceed with killing all the new players/weak players throwing them to their re-buy screen until they quit the game and and/or there is no one in open play except for pirates, then what will you pirates do? Interdict each other? There is no punishment for pirates killing other players, killing a commander is equivalent to killing an NPC, well in this game NPC's are more privileged than Commanders. I am not against Piracy, until unless there is harsh penality for MURDERING a Commander, this thing won't change, people will combat log. If FD shadow bans every player ever combat logged, they will lose more players than they retain, that can be the reason why they might be overlooking. I think to stop this there should be a mechanic to keep piracy in check, not only combat logging. Just to stop people from killing other people for so called FUN without ANY MAJOR RISK....

        Don't start telling me that all pirates don't kill, I have been playing this game for more than 1.5 years and all I saw was One True Pirate, rest were like Shoot First Talk Later, and this needs to change...

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The correct penalty for murder is that sirius adds their rebuy to yours next time you die. This is how car insurance already works in the US (without the whole death thing). Kill a 30 million rebuy in a non-anarchy system? Get an extra 30 million rebuy.

        Add a cooling off phase - 7 days? 30 days? of being a good boy and it falls off.

        [–]LazerusKI 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        thats the thing. murdering another player is way too easy and the punishment for it is neglectable. not to mention that it is very easy to exploit that bounty system.

        its the reason why i went into private, knowing that i can kill someone or get killed by someone without receiving a real punishment is just totally wrong.

        Open is the place for PVP, every decent player knows that, and everyone who doesnt want PVP avoids it. Mobius is one of the biggest groups for a reason.

        [–]WoollyMittens 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thanks for going through so much effort to gather evidence. If only people were motivated by facts instead of feels.

        [–]TheLordCrimson 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Well, glad you went through the trouble. The result is disappointing but it's not like it's a shocker.

        Let's hope this creates enough of an uproar that they do something about it or address the problem in some way.

        [–]TelPrydain 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Oh there's an up-roar. It mostly consists of people shouting, "Yay!"

        Until crime and punishment are fixed, it will continue despite the risk

        [–]TheLordCrimson 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I love how that's always the cheaters excuse. "I will continue cheating until this one feature is implemented that will not affect my gameplay at all aside from maybe a pathetic pettiness factor."

        It's fine dude, nobody needs your excuse. We all know that you're cheating because you're a bad sport.

        [–]TelPrydain 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I guess there are different definitions of bad sport.

        As I've said, I'm happy to give up cargo if caught, but if someone wants me to eat a rebuy for 'reasons', even after I've given out cargo... tough. I'm pretty comfortable with that.

        [–]Atmosph3rik 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        So i have a question.

        I understand that combat logging can't be solved in the way most MMOs solve it. By simply leaving a copy of you're character in game to be finished off after you disconnect.

        But there has to be some other way to remove this exploit from the game right? (I'm not a dev and i'm not saying i have any clue how to go about it)

        It just seems crazy for frontier to waste time individually banning people for an exploit without also working on fixing it.

        Not only do they have to waste time watching videos and deciding whether to take action. But then i'm sure they also have to deal with appeals to almost every ban, legitimate or not.

        Just to be clear i'm not saying they shouldn't take action against exploiters. I just think the long term goal should be to remove the exploit all together.

        Whatever happens Frontier should definitely be transparent about what their plan is. Silence just makes it seem like they plan to do nothing.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The correct way to remove it that doesn't require much coding at all (and let's face it, they are about 300% utilized as far as coding resources go) is to simply remove the penalty from the victim. You go back to your last save point with full cargo and you must make the journey again. Ta-da! Getting pirated is annoying, sure, but getting hobomurdered is resolved by the system itself.

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The solution I can think of would be fdev running a few anti cheat clients. These clients enter the instances of suspected cheaters without spawning a ship. If the cheater disconnects the hidden client would just grab the ship and wait for the logout timer giving the other player ample time to finish the cheater off. Upon reconnect the cheater would find a rebuy screen.

        There would only need to be a handful of these hidden clients to completely remove the problem in a few weeks or even days.

        [–]Starkiller__Starkiller [Founder of the Independent Pilots Consortium] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        We have all known this, thanks for showing everyone the truth though.

        [–]soEezeeJustCorry 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Well at least they disabled alt f4 *shrug

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Meh it takes like 10 seconds to write an autohotkey script that does the same thing. It should also be trivial to write one that just messes with your Internet connections enough to make it seem like you have connection issues on the telemetry.

        I used disconnect scripts in alpha due to the game being quite broken back then.

        [–]YamijiSolo for life 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Combat logging will never be fixed, that was clear when Frontier went with Peer to Peer technology. And them claiming it's an exploit opened a big can of worms no one can deal with. In competitive games like card games or MOBAs it's an exploit and you will be punished if you leave the game, but no non-competitive game(and Elite clearly isn't a competitive one) punishes players for "having a bad internet connection".

        But there's something I don't understand. If someone is going to log anyway, why not play Solo or Mobius and save yourself the hassle?

        [–]Tar-PalantirTar-Palantir 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But there's something I don't understand. If someone is going to log anyway, why not play Solo or Mobius and save yourself the hassle?

        I play in Open, but I'm totally with you on this. You'd think they'd choose the right mode for themselves just out of self-interest. Playing in Solo is the same number of mouse clicks it takes to get into Open. And if they really want to see other players, signing up for Mobius or Mobius PVE is really easy.

        However I wonder how much of it is caused by pure ignorance. In most games, the majority of players never read the forums, Reddit, or any other such information source. I bet most of Elite's players are completely unaware of Frontier's and the community's thoughts on combat logging.

        [–]texas__petetexaspete 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I applaud your cause and your methods. Well done for doing it properly.

        [–]planetrocky 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Seriously, who cares?

        I'd rather FD put effort into designing the universe.

        [–]cmdrbaton 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Exactly, I do not care about PvP players having problem with combat loggers, just create your private group for PvP, stay within one system and fight all day, why do you need the "glory" to kill me, I'm quite rubbish :) I also think that FD should not spend any time working on this, instead make the universe more interesting, they wasted enough time on engineers blueprints I do not need :)

        BTW - that was solid detective work to find out that they do not check the reports, kudos for that.

        [–]toomuchoversteerthere is no pizza in elite dangerous -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

        I support combat logging for pilots that don't engage on pvp and are ganged in medium ships by wings of 4 strictly engineered for pvp. God forbid these people want to play in a populated galaxy without getting killed every 5 minutes so someone can post shitty videos in youtube or pictures of their confirmed kills by frontier. Nobody pirates, and nobody role plays they just start shooting.

        [–]ogge125STARBOYY 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Nobody pirates, and nobody role plays they just start shooting.

        Bullshit, people do pirate. And people combat log on us because they're too stupid to comply and too incapable to escape.

        [–]NitekPLNitek [pl] 1800+ Player kills -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        cheating because you are not good at a game. nice

        [–]melancholymaxProtein Carrot 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Without condoning indiscriminate trader killing for the sake of doing it anyone who clicks the open play button is consenting to the possibility of being killed for any reason or no reason by any other player at any time.

        [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Really wishing for a second upvote button after reading this!

        [–]kevkevkevkevMoritz Norman | Lavigny's Legion 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        A sting operation! Well done, Rinzler and friends!

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Rinzler and friends

        I'd watch that show.

        [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        "Rinzler and Friends" has been cancelled due to the program's promotion of "non-consensual PVP". This station, and it's associates, do not support, nor encourage such acts of depravity.

        -Corporate Carebear

        [–]ripcurl0_0 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        combat loggings for cowards

        [–]Ant-SoloAnt Solo [RSM] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Depressing but unsurprising reading. Good work on this

        o7o7o7o7o7o7o7

        [–]Cmdr_TechN9ne 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        My 2 Pennies.. Give Commanders the ability to transfer Credits to other's, and watch Combat Logging drop, by at least half.

        [–]TelPrydain 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And watch the extortion begin.

        No thanks

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        How so?

        [–]brokenhands 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It's fairly common in EVE to pirate someone via extortion.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yup, happened to my small friends and family corporation like 3 days after we were founded. I think it's called wardeccing, but I'm not sure - I haven't been back to the game since.

        [–]mmirateMunchkin (also: imgur.com/CSrb0Mp) 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:

        • PvP piracy
        • Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
        • Inter-faction warfare
        • Player bounty hunting
        • Hunting newbie-killers
        • Blockades
        • System protection

        Sidenote:

        Piracy, anti-undermining, player bounty hunting and blockades are also hard-countered by Solo Play. And I'm not really sure whether that's bad.

        EDIT: the fact that some of you think that these things are the funnest gameplay in E:D ... says a lot about E:D's lack of fun gameplay.

        [–]JukeloJukelo [wealth redistribution technician and negative nancy] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I've switched to full-time PVE piracy a few months ago instead because it was getting to the point where I'd get more clogs than people willing to even bother to pretend they wanted to play the game. When you start to thank the people just wishing you cancer before trying to run you know it's time to take a hard long look at whether that shit is worth it.

        [–]DreamWovenDream Woven 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It is bad. It makes attempting those things pointless. And we miss out on emergent gameplay. If it only happened in open if there was only open. We could see traders fly with escorts to counter piracy.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        A trader with 3 escorts - even 3 fully meta combat fit escorts is still going to get smashed by a wing of 4 FdLs.

        [–]Crazy_OneF8S -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        You guys are really missing the point. When we can't keep a wing together in the same instance or the client crashes at the worst time is WAYYYYY more important than your "combat Logging" whining. Go find something meaningful to support such as wanted players flying around in an orbital without being shot at or the slight nudging that some players exploit to kill other players....Your pathetic......

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Your pathetic

        My pathetic what? Be specific!

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Your pathetic

        You're*

        [–]VathezVathez 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        How about you do it yourself?

        [–]zc_thomasRedLineUK | Resident Shit Poster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        but the point is there is no need to do anything except follow through with punishments, which the support team would deal with in there day to day life. They can distinguish that its a task kill log and evidence has been given, they should just ban. Simple. Your Pathetic. Probably a clogger hence his ignorant defense.

        [–]Deathwatch101M.K.Potter 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

        If you have spoken to any of FDEV's people other than what they post for the public, you would be aware they don't really consider logging against ToS, they just say it to make you lot shut up.

        [–]DraslinHDFMadProphet 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is heartening to read.

        [–]Supermunch2000Planetskipper 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Welp, I guess they don't care about exploiting but they go to great lengths to nerf tricks that players discover and fudge around with systems that weren't really broken.

        It's almost like they're trying to decrease fun while increasing frustration.

        Well done Frontier!

        [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        You gotta watch out for that Fun Detector!

        [–]Supermunch2000Planetskipper 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Can't let it get too high or it might get too popular! Goodness gracious if that ever happens.

        [–]PetersaberPetersaber 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Frontier has clarified this act as an exploit, and a bannable offense.

        Bannable how? There are a great many things I can see to go horribly wrong when you start banning people in a game where getting anywhere takes hundreds of hours and cost quite a lot of money.

        [–]melancholymaxProtein Carrot 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        You don't even get banned for literal shield hacking (essentially invincibility) so I can't really feel the same way you do.

        [–]TotesMessenger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

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        [–]Geeknificent 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Now with all the mission reward nerfs EVERYONE will be combat logging. and no one will get banned because they have made their own player base shrink yet again. infact I just rage quit the game today because everywhere I went that people said they were getting good pay offs were immediately nerfed. EVERYWHERE I go I don't see more than 500k rewards that arent more than 1000 LY away. So if you want more than 500k for a mission be prepared to travel 1000 LY away or more. which is unsustainable if you want to play the game legitly and are in a large ship. 40 million credit rebuys will now take forever to make. So if people are still playing they are probably combat logging before they lose that 40 million rebuy. Untill frontier makes the appropriate changes to the reward system I dont see myself playing the game again any time soon.

        Additionaly I will say frontier had it right in the first place, making sertian missions locked to certian combat/trade/exploration levels. They need to re-impliment this instead of just nerfing all the missions into the ground if they dont want new players to immediately have big ships. As it stands now the only reason to have "Elite" rank in anything is to unlock the founders system and Jameson memorial. Thats litteraly it. having Elite doesnt benefit you in any other way other than unlocking a system that makes it easier for you to outfit ships. Frontier NEEDS to go back to the Pilots Federation mission Rating system and use that as a means to control the progression of new players.

        [–]ManOfFlesh101Earth Ultimatum IV. | GCI 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        40 million rebuy, wth? Only full-combat Cutters have a rebuy of that, and those are invincible and can run away at any time.

        [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Great work! Back when I was helping admin a Dayz server (was just a teamspeak admin, but got all the juicy details from the server admins) combat logging was probably the number one reason we banned folk.

        I've always been a fan of DayZs method of keeping your character in game for 60 secs after logging - it allowed players a chance to send the C-logger back to the coast next time they log in.

        If FD isn't going to actually ban folks, then I'd love to see the 60 timer added, so that we players can at least do something about it: send them to the rebuy screen.

        Also, the whole 15sec timer thing not technically being against the rules seems kinda shit to me.

        [–]Dushenka 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Clients should automatically report players disconnecting from a p2p connection while in combat. If enough incidents get logged, a moderator will review them and act accordingly. Shouldn't be that hard to implement.

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Except for the fact that fdev doesn't know what happens in our p2p instances.

        [–]Dushenka 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That's why I said the clients should automatically report it. If several reports from multiple people come in, it's time to investigate. Yes, FDev doesn't know what's going on, the clients do however.

        [–]megazen -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

        If a person combat-logs the ship should remain in space for a short time and therefore destructable. It could also be punished in-game with a fine or bounty. That will discourage the practice.

        I like the Eve Online approach:

        The EVE Online approach was to make it so if you take any fire before logging out your ship remains in space for a short time.

        30 seconds would be all it takes in Elite to make combat logging pointless as you would die anyway so most people would stop doing it yet not harsh enough that you couldn't log back in if it was a random disconnect and your up against npc's

        [–]ReikaKalsekiReikaKalseki | Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Explorer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        yet not harsh enough that you couldn't log back in if it was a random disconnect and your up against npc's

        Most people will die in 30s of sitting there, even against NPCs. Your solution - implementation issues aside - basically means an internet timeout during combat means death.

        [–]sjkeegskeegs [EIC] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Elite PVP is conducted via p2p meaning that there are no Frontier servers involved in moderating the combat. What that means is that the only other computer involved in the combat to hold a ship in the instance after a combat log is your opponents computer.

        That would allow an opposing player to log a kill against you by:

        1. Cutting the p2p connection to your computer.
        2. Killing your ship that is now left there, presumably now controlled by an NPC.

        Leaving a ship in an instance after a player disconnects is not something that is a viable mechanism with p2p.

        [–]megazen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Elite PVP is conducted via p2p meaning that there are no Frontier servers involved in moderating the combat.

        Then they need to implement something so that a server handles combat logging.

        [–]sjkeegskeegs [EIC] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        How long are you willing to wait for that rewrite? Or, how much extra are you willing to pay for dedicated servers?

        None of that comes cheap time or cost.

        [–]YamijiSolo for life 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That's impossible due to Peer to Peer technology Elite uses. They probably knew from the onset that people will be able to kill process and get out of the game, and never cared.

        [–]beefeater605Beefeater605 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Is this a joke? People actually wasted time doing something like this?

        [–]ogge125STARBOYY 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It's not a waste of time when it's a big problem in the game.

        [–]danthehoomanBogdanov 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Are youtube view counts reliable enough for that allegation? Aren't there are a bunch of caveats to how they are calculated?

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        The videos were uploaded as unlisted, so they all have exactly 0 views.

        [–]Strayer 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        But is there any actually believable proof that one view of the video would indeed increase that counter? YouTube does some hard to understand things with view counts, some are explained on their help page: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2991785?hl=en

        I really don't want to shit on this investigation, as I think it is very valuable, but all things need to be considered.

        As a software engineer myself I can understand why especially low-priority videos like unlisted videos that may have very few views, updating counters may be a very very low priority for the system.

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I fucked up and viewed one of the videos and it incremented.

        [–]YamijiSolo for life 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Can confirm, I made an unlisted video to test my upload and each view from me and my friends increased the counter.

        [–]recuise 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

        What a load of bollocks.

        [–]ToCoSofreelance creative engagement officer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Ah someone who speaks the truth at last.

        [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Now, a way to reduce the amount of people combat logging would be to implement a better crime & punishment system, which we had a modthread of a short while ago

        Edit: Not suggesting that it will solve it, Frontier should take actions against exploiters. But it will give the person being attacked a reason to try stay within high-security and try to survive an attack till forces arrive. Given the current system, they might just combat log anyway cause they can't survive long enough for anyone to even have a chance at prohibiting it

        [–]mmirateMunchkin (also: imgur.com/CSrb0Mp) 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Exactly. Something, something, attack the problem instead of the symptoms, something, something.

        (Seriously, voters, you shot down the voice of reason? For shame.) that was from when parent was at -2

        [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        that was from when parent was at -2

        All fixed thanks to you :P

        [–]TheCodePRTruthful PR - Player kill count Over 9000 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Honest question because I see so many people just saying "Crime and punishment will fix everything"

        Giving that crime and punishment has to be balanced so that criminal acts are still possible. You are just looking at larger fines, restrictions in where you can land and more aggressive NPC bounty hunters.

        Seeing as non of that is going to bother a PVP'er. Since we already have billions and can high wake out of every situation possible ( the Grom missiles will get nerfed if they actually work ). What is going to happen, short of Eve style insta gank police?

        Code PR

        [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well it's supposed to be a challenge, one that should be fun but still be challenging. Whatever the best system for crime & punishment might be, it should fix piracy and smuggling, but at the same time give a reason for people to choose high security systems to greatly reduce the chance of getting killed.

        At the moment, there is almost no chance for a trader to survive an attack. But if they know the mechanics, and security will come quite quickly (given high security system and possibly within trade highway (or whatever it's called again)), they will try to survive until that happens.

        At the moment, there is no reason to try and escape or fight back. They know they don't have a chance at all, even if they were in high security. Combat logging should still be more punishable than it is, especially considering OP. But there needs to be reasons to avoid doing so to begin with

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Traders will still log to avoid a loss, so that won't do literally anything to stop combat logging. You think suddenly someone is going to eat a 30 mil rebuy if they know my FDL will get popped by system security?

        Please.

        [–]SUNDAE_SUNDAE_SUNDAECMDR Sundae [nerf Pipko] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Wrong. The best way to reduce combat logging would be to disincentivize it, instead of incentivizing it: i.e. if you log out in a combat state you relog into a rebuy screen.

        Incentive to combat log is gone. It's elegant in its simplicity, isn't it?

        [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That's...a pretty fucking good solution actually. Have a point thingy :)

        [–]Viajero1Viajero 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It is so elegant that it does not even distinguish neither accidental disconnects nor those in non combat situations from pulling the plug at all.

        [–]SUNDAE_SUNDAE_SUNDAECMDR Sundae [nerf Pipko] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        FD can systematically and automatically tell one case from another as is cited in the OP, they have claimed. So your concern is moot.

        Also if you disconnect in a combat state, you would die anyway, not being there to save your ship. Again rendering your comment a "concern troll."

        [–]Viajero1Viajero 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        How many combat logs were done AND reported per each individual account? Just the one?

        [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I always felt it was patently obvious that Fdev was not actually punishing combat loggers. We would see the same people that chronically combat logged all over the place without fail. Many of these players would even willfully enter combat but then combat log if they were losing.

        For others, it was a goto method of exiting an unwanted fight even if it was perfectly feasible for them to hi or low wake. It's the product of a spoiled attitude that everyone should just adhere to their unwritten rules of decency in a game where there is no reasonable expectation of such. It's why so many of these same players despise Eve Online, because in response to complaints about "griefing" (which really isn't griefing in most cases), CCP would respond telling them to "Harden the fuck up," and there is no way to combat log in Eve.

        Even after infamous players attempted to turn the tables by recording themselves using a "graceful exit" combat log to abuse the system, Fdev still impotently sat on their hands. It's pretty obvious that Fdev privately endorses this kind of behavior and that's quite pathetic honestly. Shame.

        [–]TelPrydain -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Either that or FD agree with the unwritten rules of decency and do believe there is a reasonable expectation of such.

        On the brightside... if the combat logging drives people away, those left will hopefully be the decent and reasonable. What a lovely place it would be.

        [–]CMDR_VeraxVerax | SDC | Technically Bannable Somehow[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Nope. Simply wrong. And if you want a pacifist carebear utopia, you can always play in Mobius. Cheating just makes a person despicable.

        [–]epicbubbleisepicEpicBubble | Iridium Wing | 302 kills 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Suspected this for a very long time since people I know are frequent combat loggers still play in open....

        It's so sad to see they are so understaffed that they simply chose to ignore cheaters.

        Amazing journalistic work! o7

        [–]Queen_JezzaJezebel Taylor | I role play as an NPC pirate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Great to see that all that time I spent recording video evidence of combat loggers, uploading it and sending it to FD was a huge waste of time. Though in all honestly, can't say I'm surprised.

        [–]BoostBlitzen 13ポイント14ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Furthermore, the very nature of risk and reward is upended (a fundamental aspect of any game) because the combat logging party is never faces any risk of loss. Because the combat logger faces no negative consequences for any action, non-combat loggers must shoulder the full—and completely asymmetrical—burden of risk for any interaction: this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.

        The real problem is not the combat loggers. They log not because they don't want to be pirated or killed in combat, but because the way they are being abused and exploited isn't governed with a fair system. They could simply not play in open play (which is what I do) if they didn't want to deal with other players. The real party that faces no consequences during combat, are the actual murderous players that roll up and gank/pirate defenseless or new players for the lulz under the guise of piracy.

        This game is NOT an MMO. It is a coop/single player game with some multiplayer elements thrown in to appease the mutiplayer crowd. There is no bounty, crime/punishment system beyond a rigid AI/procedural system that punishes you for minor infractions, yet you can murder unlimited numbers of AI and other players without a single change to your overall galaxy-wide reputation. There is no economy, no system to system communication system, leaderboards, nothing. It is more a single player game than anything else.

        Ultimately, combat logging is a thing because people are not stupid. It is also a thing because any time certain types of people are left alone to do whatever they want without rules in place to punish them for doing bad things to other people, they will take advantage of that freedom and be jerk-offs because they can. Smart players that aren't jerk-offs, aren't going to deal with that behavior, hence the combat logging. They think "I'm in a trading ASP and he's in an all combat-fitted Anaconda...this is not a fair fight. F*ck this guy...if he can just kill me without any consequences for his actions, I'm going to unplug my router and create my own solution for bad game design".

        Pirates, murderers without a cause should all be punished to the point where they risk becoming enemies to all places in civilized space. If this was implemented along with all the other cool side-effects like risky trading to unsecured stations outside the protective bubble for much higher profits, or risking piracy in controlled systems for a juicier heist, etc. Along with REAL bounty hunting and tracking systems against criminal CMDRs and HUGE (based on collateral damage to AI/players) bounties that can be shared in a wing should you successfully track a criminal and bring him to justice. Creating huge CQC type installations that can be fought over for credits as you hold them or reward missions for defending or capturing, etc. MUCH smaller insurance costs for victims killed by other players. Implement those things and PvP in open will flourish, and combat logging will disappear for the most part.

        Until that time, you guys bitching and complaining about combat logging are only hurting yourselves. How? Because those same players doing the combat logging will quit playing in open play thus reducing people you see in open play altogether.

        [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The real party that faces no consequences during combat, are the actual murderous players that roll up and gank/pirate defenseless or new players for the lulz under the guise of piracy.

        100% this. they'll say "I risked it all and they risked nothing" when their in a fucking decked out FDL fighting a fucking Cobra...

        And if they do get a bounty it means nothing- a 7k bounty literally means nothing- no one's hunting them and if they wanted get rid of the boutny they just buy a sidewinder and suicide...

        Meanwhile the guy in the Mk3 is facing a million credit+ rebuy.

        [–]Tar-PalantirTar-Palantir 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Because those same players doing the combat logging will quit playing in open play thus reducing people you see in open play altogether.

        That would be better for everyone. The combat loggers would be safe from unwanted interactions. The PvPers would not waste their time trying to play with people who don't want to play.

        [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It's unfortunate really because the game could have been a lot more fun if the online experience was more friendly and predictable...

        [–]Tar-PalantirTar-Palantir 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        To be honest I never wanted the game to be multiplayer. I don't really like multiplayer games much, and I thought multiplayer doesn't belong in Elite. So I was very skeptical.

        But I find myself playing in Open, because I find it moderately more interesting with the possibility of chatting with friendly Commanders, and the ultimate threat of hostile Commanders to keep my on my toes. To be a rabbit among wolves, rather than just staying in my Solo comfort zone.

        Sure, I'd selfishly enjoy it if Frontier imposed my play style on everyone. But I don't expect that or really want it. I can find my fun in this game.

        Also, I'd love it if Frontier implemented some bold new measures along the "Crime and Punishment" lines, and/or beefing up system security (in High Security systems only) to promote player risk management, and create a more varied geography in the galaxy. I dunno if it'll ever happen, but I hope for it someday.

        Meanwhile I'll play the game we got. If I stop enjoying Open, I won't need to combat log, I know what I want and where to go to get it.

        [–]harweeOddPotato 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        How can you say such a thing? Pirates won't have anyone to gank/grief upon.

        [–]Tar-PalantirTar-Palantir 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        1) Lol, yeah. So sad. :)

        2) Pirates? Those are mythical, aren't they? But if they did exist, they wouldn't be gankers/griefers. And a combat logger is a waste of their time.

        3) In all seriousness, I have eased up on my anger towards gankers. If there are people who want to kill and be killed, fight everything in sight win or lose, I guess that's ok with me -- because there are completely viable modes to play in that will give you whatever you're looking for. The only thing that really pisses me off now is when someone tries to render the game unplayable for everyone, like UA bombing stations, or killing story event "actors".

        [–]GoinXwell1|RedDragonSwords|PalCon Xbox Fleet 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

        No wonder I see so many fucking combat loggers. I was in Maia a few weeks ago and from all commanders in the CZ's there, only two ate a rebuy. One highwaked and the other 15 combat logged.

        [–]GoinXwell1|RedDragonSwords|PalCon Xbox Fleet 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Funny detail is that the one highwaker came back and switched side to avoid a possible rebuy by my ship :D

        [–]Kyokushin4Kyokushin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Do not worry, with new torpedo meta it will be one shot one kill. They will not have a time to combat log. Then we will experience a new thing - an interdiction-log :D P.S. Well written, and shame to FD. This problem is known since the release and still not fixed.

        [–]pl4typusfr1endPlatypus Friend 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

        And now we wait.

        [–]TheCodePRTruthful PR - Player kill count Over 9000 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Soon(tm)

        Code PR

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        It's on the list tm

        [–]ravstar52ravstar52 (Wing Bacon) 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Near the top. Page 300 i'd say

        [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        My favorite part of this thread so far is people defending combat logging because %legitimately broken game mechanic% is still broken and should be fixed first. How sad is it that we've gotten to the point where the community is divided over which mechanic is most broken.....

        I tried giving Fdev the benefit of the doubt, but poorly implemented sequential patches and then this information really makes that hard to do.

        [–]zalpha314zalpha5436 [XB1] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        I think this has a very simple solution. Once they combat log, keep their ship in the game for 15 seconds.

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Not possible because of the P2P instancing design they went with. There's no server to keep the ship "alive".

        [–]zalpha314zalpha5436 [XB1] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Ah, I guess that does make it more difficult then.

        [–]brokenhands 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There's no arbitration server, but bet your ass: you talk to the transaction server both when you connected and disconnected from the island (check the netlogs). The issue revolves around trusting the non-logger's client to report: "That noob just logged". You have to pull that off without players gaining the ability to pass that message in other cases.

        [–]Crimson_KaimCrimson Kaim 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thank you.

        [–]OfficialCombatLoggerJudder Man ¦ Salt Detection & Collection 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

        'nuff said

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh you :)

        [–]SWABteam 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

        The thing is that I have seen posts where Frontier consider chain interdiction and hunting down specific players over and over again to also be considered griefing and not in the spirit of the game.

        It could be entirely possible they approached the "guy who always combat logs on you" and he was able to point to your posts on YouTube and Reddit and claim you were singling him out and harassing him.

        I agree that combat logging when being pirated or in a CZ is bullshit, but there is the opposite issue of people being dicks and following you around a CG system even after you let them blow you up in a CZ. Or someone chain pirating you even after you have either been blown up by them or you gave then the goods

        At that point fuck you that isn't PvP anymore is essentially corpse camping which IMO is just as much of a dickbag move.

        [–]fatwithbeardBanandles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Surprised they haven't down voted you yet. They don't like people pointing out that they are fighting dickery by being dicks.

        [–]jamfourJAMfour 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        You’re argument is really about a related, but separate issue: the lack of proper crime and punishment. Maybe some people “justify” their logging with “well they aren’t being punished for ‘griefing’ me”, but that doesn’t change the fact that logging is still cheating.

        [–]TelPrydain 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Which is cool, but clearly it's not you making that call, and FD seem to accept that as a worthwhile counter.

        [–]jamfourJAMfour 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They’ve stated (as mentioned) that combat logging is cheating. Hence the post describing the depth of this hypocrisy.

        [–]CMDR_Chris_LaneChris Lane | [Dark Legion] 0 FD confirmed PVP deaths| 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Fantastic work my friends. Admire the effort and bringing this to the open. o7

        [–]soulassassinoPopededi 7ポイント8ポイント  (24子コメント)

        Well written. Just one question, have you taken this writeup to frontier before publishing?

        I'll upvote this for visibility, even though I'm personally not fussed about the whole thing.

        [–]dafuqup 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        before publishing

        Posting something on reddit is not really publishing, just posting.

        [–]vestigial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This will be a "news" article on at least a few "news" sites by tomorrow.

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Semantics. It's the same thing.

        [–]soulassassinoPopededi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh you know what I mean.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (19子コメント)

        Frontier will sidestep and backtrack their way out of any discussions regarding combat logging (remember their piracy livestream ending immediately when someone combat logged on them?)

        The idea here is to make the community aware and to get this information out to external gaming media sites, which will force Frontier's hand. It's really sad that it's come to this :/

        [–]Arkanis106 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

        Just like you chickenshits sidestep into solo when the cavalry comes to protect Eravate? ;)

        Stop your crying, you created the problem by being assholes. You reap what you sow.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (16子コメント)

        Yeah nah, we don't go to Eravate unless we specifically want to fight AA.

        But by all means, don't let me stop you from making things up to justify your blind rage, friendo :)

        [–]Arkanis106 0ポイント1ポイント  (15子コメント)

        Ha, every time I went there, you bitches bitched out. I just stopped bothering, because you were all in solo, hiding.

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Wait, was I in solo too?

        You can tell if players are in a system in solo?

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Who in SDC are you friends with in-game? You're so damn salty, I wouldn't put it past you to make shit up.

        [–]Arkanis106 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Am I so salty as to keep making crying posts on Reddit?

        "Wah, heat cancer!" "Wah, people combat log!" "Wah, nobody plays open!"

        You people are such babies, it would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I mean pretty much every post you have in this subreddit is crying about SDC so...

        It's nice to have fans like you, though!

        [–]Arkanis106 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I know you're jealous of how awesome I am. Please, tell me again how superior I am to you.

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yep raising a big stink is only way to get through. You're doing good work and I salute you.

        [–]HollowThiefCMDR Nandayo 6ポイント7ポイント  (13子コメント)

        Don't people understand frontier can't do anything about CL? The game is peer-to-peer (p2p). As long as elite doesn't have dedicated servers and relies on p2p for multiplayer CL will ALWAYS be there.

        I'm sorry but all these discussions are literally 100% pointless. CL is here to stay and there's nothing frontier can do about it.

        [–]CptCmdrAwesome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There are a bunch of ways they could go about sorting this problem. P2P just makes the problem more interesting, not a technical infeasibility.

        [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thank fucking god someone has a brain in this thread. Thank you.

        [–]IdiotKnightDeuce Halcyon -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Meh, I always feel the point of posts like this are more for people to feel better than accomplish anything. OF COURSE there is nothing FDev can do. Or want to do. Combat Loggers paid cashy monies for the game. If they get banned, then they will not spend more money. So nothing will happen. FDev gives no fucks as long as they are turning a profit.

        It is sad but true.

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Sure they can. They can't stop it, but they can punish for it after the fact. They admitted that they can tell what is and isn't a combat log, so why wouldn't they be able to punish for it?

        [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Indeed, without any deterent it won't change any behaviour.

        The guys at H1Z1 have the right attitude:

        The studio is also working on a log-out timer to prevent log-out cheating, new regional servers, a new two-man skirmish mode, and penalties for those who have poor network connections: “There is an escalating system of penalties applied based on the length of time you go with a poor connection. Level 1 simply locks your weapon. This is usually brief if you normally have a stable connection, could just be a minor interruption. Level 2 kicks in if you are continuing to play with a bad connection, and it will freeze your character in place and lock your weapon. Level 3 will get triggered if you ignore the previous warnings, and it is a combination of the previous two levels and then will also kick you out of a vehicle if you are currently driving one. Essentially this will make the player with a poor connection a sitting duck. If the situation is corrected, your character will be unlocked, and everyone can continue enjoy the match.”

        Read 'poor connection' = combat logging.

        http://massivelyop.com/2016/08/08/daybreak-is-cracking-down-on-cheating-bad-connections-in-h1z1/

        Frontier have just been fobbing everyone off with excuses. Brabens crusade on 'griefers' is evidence enough to realise where they stand. Another problem is that the management of this subreddit are also complicit. By not allowing vids here showing combat logging they are helping to sweep the matter under the carpet and protect the company from a their lax attitude and glaring flaw in the design of the game.

        [–]BaronMusclethorpeJ. J. Musclethorpe [The Code] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Not only do you punish it, you publicize the consequences so that other commanders know that shit isn't taken lightly. This is what's called a deterrent.

        [–]HollowThiefCMDR Nandayo 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Because they have to carpet bomb bans on people who get legitimately disconnected or ED crashed on them.

        And you can't ban players on situational "evidence". You'll end up banning people who crashed/dced at the wrong time at the wrong place.

        Is it worth it? Can you imagine how much effort it would take to communicate with open tickets about wrongful bans? It's just not worth it.

        I've been through the phase "OMG FD FIX COMBAT LOGGING", but it's simply here to stay. It's a lose-lose situation and the safest way is to leave it as it is. The only people who suffer are the extreme and hated pvp minority anyway lol..

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

        And you can't ban players on situational "evidence". You'll end up banning people who crashed/dced at the wrong time at the wrong time.

        Yes you can. You build a metric around it and increment every disconnect and count the number of times it was done in combat and ship state. If every time there's a disconnect the player has no shields and is in combat, that's pretty clear cut. If 90% of the time the player was flying around in SC or sitting at the station, that's pretty clear cut, too.

        Quit giving them an out for not punishing literal cheaters in their own game.

        [–]HollowThiefCMDR Nandayo 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I'm not saying there aren't solutions, but I'm 100% convinced FD won't do anything ever. Too much effort, too much resources and for what? To please the niche and dwindling pvp community? No way.

        [–]jamfourJAMfour 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        dwindling pvp community

        Ever wonder what one of the reasons it might be dwindling is?

        [–]HollowThiefCMDR Nandayo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        PvP has the backseat in Elite. And it's a real shame imo, because the flight model and combat are very nicely implemented (and that's the hardest part to get right).

        Oh well, one can only hope

        [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Then they should just come out and say that instead of pretending they care about it.

        [–]NamacystNamacyst - ISS Trashcan -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Frontier isn't doing anything against PvP griefing.

        Frontier isn't doing anything against combat logging.

        Atleast Frontier is fair in not doing anything.

        Very sad :/

        [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Frontier isn't doing anything against PvP griefing.

        Apart from installing solo and private groups which were specifically put there to combat 'griefing'.. There are a host of other things they've done too, 'tricks up their sleeves', to quote Braben.

        So you are wrong.

        [–]Netskimmer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That's like putting all the innocent people in prison to 'protect' them from the murders that are running free. It's a copout at best.

        [–]Yclept_CunctipotenceBuckfast Rogers [Indy] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        PvP murder-hobo-ing is a legit play style. CLogging isn't.

        [–]TelPrydain -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Turns out FD disagrees with you

        [–]Smokey_Gaming_UK 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yet I'm shadow banned for my son joining mobius after I was banned from the private group (without justification too). Sick of Fdev and they're persecution of pvp players and constant support for combat logging scum and people who fuck a clans bgs while going in solo. I found support to be passive aggressive and rude when I tried to open a dialogue regarding this issue.

        [–]isforadsFinegan [Adle's Armada] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I found support to be passive aggressive and rude

        You're not alone.

        [–]kled7Kled7 27ポイント28ポイント  (16子コメント)

        So, not to defend FD on this, but its got to be tough to discipline for this. If they get it wrong they run the risk of losing a customer. If they get it right, they run the risk of losing a customer. If they do nothing they run the risk of losing a customer.

        I would venture a guess that they took a calculated risk and decided to do nothing, as they assumed they would loose the least number of people that way.

        When i did power play i always found it incredibly frustrating for a opposing power player to log, power play is something you sign up for, you have to KNOW whats going to happen to you when you jump into it.

        That being said, i can see why someone would log if they where just in a non-combat vessel and being attacked by a griefer. In that case the burden of the interaction is placed squarely on the shoulders of the victim, but again, in that case, if someone planned to do something in a non-combat ship and was not willing to accept the burden, they should not be in open.

        [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They haven't done nothing... they've issued warnings...

        OP is just making shit up cause he's salty AF for no real reason -_-

        [–]Fus_Roh_Potato 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I would venture a guess that they took a calculated risk and decided to do nothing, as they assumed they would loose the least number of people that way.

        Exactly this, however, it may be possible for them to shift this environment so that fixing it becomes the more appropriate answer.

        There are options:

        1) Crime and punishment.

        It might be more practical to apply an insurance mechanic that more resembles what happens to car accidents in America. If the other driver is at fault, you still have to pay a co-payment, but the majority of insurance bill to repair the car is sent to the offender.

        Lets say your ship costs 1 mil in rebuy and you were murdered. The victim could instead pay 25% 250,000cr of their rebuy while the remaining 750,000cr be stacked onto the enemy's next rebuy. I know this doesn't answer "well what about murderers with 10 billion credits", but you get my point right?

        2) Powerplay Insurance.

        Another idea that may relieve grievances would be increased insurance coverage for combat between PP aligned commanders. Since these factions are promoting expansion, maybe they should be interested in supporting commanders with increased coverage. This would mean, instead of paying 10% flat regardless, you may only pay 1% if your death was caused by Powerplay combat, thus reducing costs for PvP oriented players with PvP activities.

        By reducing the costs and instances of pointless murder, FDev may then have a shift where implementing a fix results in less loss than doing nothing at all. When a player realizes that a murderer will get fucked for his trolling, there's a better chance they'd be more inviting of the incident. Therefore, if FDev made it impossible to combat log, there will be more players less likely to protest the change.

        Until then, I agree, FDev currently has no incentive to actually fix this problem. It would cause more harm than good in this game's current state.

        [–]piechooserAmanita Verna 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

        The solution that gets posted to this each time it pops up is to change the game itself, not punish each person individually.

        Impart a cooldown on logging off when you get shot at, just like any MMO. 30 seconds is enough time for a CMDR to kill you, which'd stop people combat logging. You are free to quit, but your ship will float defenceless in space for 30 secs.

        I'm all for this, and I'm someone who avoids combat like the plague.

        [–]kwxRagnar Drake 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        This is unfortunately not really possible in the current peer-to-peer networked implementation. There's no central server that could mediate the second-by-second details of combat. I'm not saying that the current mechanism is the best it can be, but it's not as easy as just adding a timer. Letting a disconnected ship stay in someone else's peer instance to be shot at would risk exposing other exploits.

        [–]piechooserAmanita Verna 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Hopefully they can figure it out. If all other MMOs can do it, maybe Frontier can one day :>.

        [–]kwxRagnar Drake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Figuring out isn't the only part, it's also an issue of cost. Doing server-side mediation of combat would require a lot of dedicated server resources, and this may not be economically feasible for a game such as Elite which doesn't have a monthly subscription fee. Currently, Frontier's servers are just involved for matchmaking and transactions, and that's orders of magnitude less traffic + server resources than full combat control.

        [–]PretagonistPretagonist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yea it's a hard balance. But you know what? For fdev to even try to balance they need to watch the damn videos first. Why not just collect some evidence and send a few angry mails? Just do something. To actively ask the community for help and then doing jack is fucking disgraceful.

        [–]roflbbqARC5775 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Losing. one O

        loose verb

        gerund or present participle: loosing

        set free; release. "the hounds have been loosed"

        [–]kled7Kled7 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Fixed. Thanks.

        Reddit is like Open, if you can't handle the burden of grammatical correction, one shouldn't post. I handle this burden like a 10 mil rebuy.

        [–]CMDR_fu9ar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Unless you go into /r/all, then grammatical correction will get an obligatory post of

        /r/iamverysmart

        [–]CMDR_Chris_LaneChris Lane | [Dark Legion] 0 FD confirmed PVP deaths| 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

        This comment made me happy. Thanks. (If there are any errors in this post i will combat log)

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        "I" should be capitalized.

        [–]CMDR_Chris_LaneChris Lane | [Dark Legion] 0 FD confirmed PVP deaths| 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Well shit

        [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        yeh thes royt

        [–]Supermunch2000Planetskipper -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Doing nothing gives the impression that they don't care about the user experience. It also doesn't help them to make things harder with their heavy handed "balance passes" (i.e. Nerfing).

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin[M] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

          • Naming and Shaming is prohibited.
            • Posting videos where combat logging, cheating or exploiting is the main focus is prohibited.

          If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification, or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!

          [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Holy shit you care a lot... does it get your dick that much harder if you see your enemy explode? To be clear- I'm not condoning combat logging... just saying there's a lot more to the game. If your opponent combat logged then you won- be happy you we're the better pilot. What's it going to get at most ... a million credits? Big fucking deal you've already made a billion doing Sothis/Ceos like everyone else...

          Crying about the 1% of the game that hardly matters. Frontier naming this an exploit was the biggest mistake they ever made. Closing a running process on your computer is never going to be an exploit in any game... they can say whatever it doesn't matter... They don't own your computer, they don't own your processes. They have no grounds on which to penalize you.

          They can't enforce this effectively or safely.

          Case in point: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/3ficr7/i_am_marked_as_a_combat_logger_because_frontier/

          These systems will always be based on guesses... did the user combat log? or are they playing a 3g connection...who knows? ban hammer anyway...

          It's unfortunate because people whining about it will only make the situation worse... instead of inviting people to join pvp communities and making it a fun experience it'd be totally different.

          Power goes out, network connections fail, memory errors, cats step on your power button, lighting strikes people's houses... and yes- people task-kill their games. No one can effectively differentiate between any of these in a P2P environment.

          Simple solution: chill out and play the game... this isn't even slightly relevant in the grand scheme of things.

          I've played for over 1000 hours and enjoyed pretty much every second of it save some grinding... I've seen combat loggers... big whoop... so i won that fight, good for them for not having to spend millions on a rebuy... so be it- didn't hurt me or my ego any way. And they probably feel like shit anyway for being terrible pilots...

          So get over it.

          [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Yep, I hate cheaters. Doesn't matter if it's an IRL sport, game, video game, or anything.

          Crazy huh?

          [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

          The difference is that this isn't actual cheating... it can't be determined properly (with exception to user reports which can also be rigged and unreliable...)

          IRL you have cameras, you have referees... in CS:GO you have VAC and real servers...

          But in E:D you don't have that. It's P2P there is NO way to properly detect a combat log and differentiate it from a thousands other things that it could be... You can't rely on other clients because that information is exploitable too...

          You can't penalize someone for their internet crashing or their power dying...

          And so E:D has combat loggers... as have piles of games since forever.

          [–]SpazeMan120Beumer | i occasionally go boom 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Stop trying to defend Fdev by saying Combat Logging (referencing Task-killing, not menu-logging) isn't an issue in this game, when THEY THEMSELVES have said they don't want players to combat log.

          [–]godofleetMOSTLY HARMLESS -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          And they've also said that they have no way of detecting it as there is no central server monitoring players.

          Source: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-%E2%80%9CCombat-Logging%E2%80%9D-Update

          They even say this is something to "avoid" ... which doesn't mean "don't do it..." it means... "avoid it"... so frankly they're not taking it that seriously...

          Never said they didn't consider it cheating- i'm saying that they can't do shit about it. I'm not defending them... but I will defend the premise that P2P software, which is how E:D was built- inherently can't be monitored or controlled like a real server.

          This isn't a matter of defending any party ... or making the game better because this isn't going to change unless FD suddenly gets a shit ton of cash and can overhaul the game to have some sort of central server that monitors closely all player interactions.

          The game has a lot more going for it- people just need to chill out about the combat logging as it's barely important compared to the ten thousand other issues, improvements and long term goals that FD has for ED.

          [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

          If you invest hundreds of hours into something, you should care

          [–]Stelcio 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

          What a show of arrogance and demandment on top of unparalleled amount of presumption and ignorance.

          Your whole investigation was flawed from the very start. Frontier representatives explicitly stated that they weren't taking any actions regarding combat loggers yet as of 2015/01/27 and then in private correspondence from 2016/09/29 that you supplied yourself it was stated that any actions against combat-logging commanders will be applied en masse, meaning all at the same time at one point, not every case separately. The sole fact that no punishment was given doesn't mean the case hasn't been verified.

          And then you come here and throw accusations like "blatant lies", "unethical", "façade" around without even reading your own "evidence" thoroughly. If they really just ignore you, then you get what you deserve.

          [–]vestigial 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          façade

          Is the ç-cedilla coming back?

          I haven't seen accents in English since I stopped reading The New Yorker ten years ago.

          [–]MasonSTLMasonSTL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It's spelt quesadilla

          im just hungry

          [–]gaplant-tr5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          yeah it's easy to prove anything when you come up with the question, all the interpretations, all the explanations for what other people say and think, and then think your view is the only one that matters. +1

          [–]cliffietheman 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Oh look! Downvotes for speaking the truth. What a bunch of dorks.

          +1 for spot on analysis of this bullshit.

          [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          How about this post from Braben himself about a month ago saying "we do take action"?

          [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Not valid, proper citation needed

          [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Fuck, I forgot MLA.

          [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Pretty clear you didn't actually click on any of the links, or you would have seen this where support says "we take action wherever necessary, including a first time offence."

          [–]MasonSTLMasonSTL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          yeah, they see that this was the first offense > see the CMDR name > flagged them > moved on. False positives are just as harmful to the game as cheaters. It isn't anything out of the ordinary for a company to wait until multiple reports of a player to pop up before taking decisive action. Also, ban waves are common practice and usually preferred as they make it harder for cheaters to narrow down exactly what got them banned.

          Also "wherever necessary" =/= immediate and definitive action.

          [–]Bumblebee__TunaDrunkRenegade12 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Source? Proof? I've read no such update from FDev, and I'd be very interested in reading it.

          [–]MrHumhead 43ポイント44ポイント  (62子コメント)

          I play in solo all the time because with no interest in combat, I have no fighting skills. I really want to play open and find friends to wing up with. But the risk of loosing cargo, missions, and the cutter rebuy to a commander that is in to murdering and theft makes me stay solo. I think the game would have many more players online if there was a way to protect yourself if you were not into PvP.

          [–]Radeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It's the challenge that is attractive...wanting "easy mode" is booooooooooring and if you really want that, why not play in solo mode?

          I for one hope the last thing Frontier will ever do is turn Elite into even more of a carebear haven...PVP is already pretty weak as it is.

          [–]D-AlembertJ. Fisher 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It's losing your ship to a player that is into grief that is the worry. Losing cargo to a player that is into theft is actually a really fun thing with perhaps more gains than costs.

          There is no money in pirating other players, so they tend to not ask for much more than a token share of your cargo because they're really doing it for interesting interactions. And before things even get to that point, your ship is on equal footing with theirs in the cat&mouse game in supercruise, so just knowing that you're the mouse and should not be asleep at the wheel brings out the gameplay of supercruise which can otherwise be a bit of a boring waiting game. You also learn more about flying and figuring out creative ways to beat the cat :)

          I just earmark enough credits for a rebuy+cargo as "already spent" on rebuy so that I've mentally pre-paid for any loss and thus don't need to feel upset if I get attacked by a griefer. Then I can happily leave solo for open whenever I'm not in the mood for solitude only :)

          [–]PlankWithANailIn 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

          They should tweak the matchmaking so if you have killed a CMDR in the last 7 days you only get instanced with other CMDR's that have done the same. That way all the PVPr's will be together and so won't upset anyone else's game.

          [–]spacemind20SpaceGodzilla -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You have private and solo to play in to not get upset lol

          [–]StanYz 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Join mobius, 17k players on PC, pvp only in conflict zones allowed, any violaters get removed from the group. Its like open without the pvp and griefing.

          [–]CMDR_TiigerstyleTiigerstyle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I've only played in open. Will continue to do so. But I have a question I've always wondered about Mobius.

          Is piracy allowed? In Open I pirate players, and have not killed a CMDR in about 6 months. I just interdict and take some cargo, maybe a few warning shots.

          Does the Mobius crowd consider this "griefing"? Genuine curiosity here

          [–]KefengKefeng 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

          I don't even see any other people in open.

          [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          ...hello fellow Australian?

          [–]AutoMechanical 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          It feels like a racial shadow ban at times.

          [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          ...at least we can't get friend sniped?

          We'd be immune to streamsniping too (if we had the internet to stream with)

          [–]TheLordCrimson 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Submit and high-wake.. you're literally immortal due to some bad game mechanics, no need to cheat on top of that.

          Also: Dying in this game isn't that bad, don't let the fear of that rob you from ever trying anything challenging.

          [–]planetrocky 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I've never once been in Open Play. Zero interest in being hassled online.

          [–]Alpha087 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Same reason myself and any of my friends I bring into the game always stick to private group. I want to interact with the community at large and meet new people. I don't want to PvP.

          Combat logging would be less of an issue if Frontier didn't force people who want to play with other players but don't necessarily want to PvP into PvP situations.

          [–]gaplant-tr5 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

          a lot of people here think you're not interacting with people if you aren't fighting them- like if somebody can't win something somehow, it's pointless :(

          [–]cl3arm3diumclearmedium 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I agree it's a shame however the game really doesn't offer much else to do with other humans. Most things done in Elite in a wing, that doesn't involve killing other players, are actually a detriment or have little to no difference from just playing solo.

          The real solution to this would be to make grouping up net you a positive such as bounty hunting you get 10% more money than solo in a wing instead of being penalized for grouping up. Having the ability to share missions, trade, guilds and more are the things that would encourage a type of interaction that isn't murder.

          [–]Alpha087 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Sounds like an awfully boring and narrow perspective to take on a game that offers as much freedom to do what you want as Elite does.

          [–]gaplant-tr5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          its not freedom if one of the things you can do is force others to do one thing or die.

          [–]GeneralCrustGolf Echo November 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Check out the Galactic Combat Initiative...you'll get all kinds of tips on combat, even if all you want to to learn how to survive attacks.

          The more you know, the further you'll go!

          https://discordapp.com/invite/ChrWAvP

          [–]Daffan????? 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

          Frontier just needs to buckle up and improve the crime system, they don't need to create a big division in Open with PvP flagging or anything similar.

          For instance, increasing the variable(lol) for murder penalty from 50k to something much higher would help a lot and probably take less then a lunch break.

          [–]jessecrothwaith 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          The crime system is a joke to guys with billions in credit. What I want is movie karma. for instance when you attack someone who is 1/5 as combat able there should be a chance that a group of NPC musketeers would appear and defend you, some times enough to balance the odds, sometimes in overwhelming force. That would be more fun to anybody who actually wants to play the game.

          [–]Daffan????? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Well I only offered the most simplest solution which would take no time at all. Other things like stopping docking in secure systems, heightened security response speed and a way for PvP bounty hunting would also help.

          It would also help if "griefers" couldn't high wake instantly at the sign of danger or drop to solo to escape. Then you might actually be able to stop them. Right now it's almost a total waste of time trying.

          [–]mr_jawa 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Here's a thought. You kill a un-wanted player. You lose your ship. Bam plus a 20% credit penalty. It will stop very quickly. I hate open. I'm tired of the annoying pirates.

          [–]mexterTaen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I hate it too, but any sort of deterence should be in-universe. Let's say, for example, an intergalactic Interpol. One that will hunt you down relentlessly as though they were an NPC that just saw your delicious, delicious cargo (of probably 1 unit of biowaste). For every murder they pour more resources into hunting the attacker down.

          Also dramatically increase bounties proportionately to the combat level of the victim. So if you are Elite and you murder a n00b, your bounty is FAR higher than if you attacked another Elite pilot.

          [–]vsTerminusvsTerminus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          So how will you feel when you have to pay $50 million credits to rebuy your Corvette because someone dropped their hull to 5% on purpose and then flew into you?

          [–]Daffan????? 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Ok, only if it doesn't count for Powerplay and other competitive gameplay (Minor factions too and Allow CG choosing sides etc), and you get a massive bonus for doing those things in Open.

          Otherwise your just killing PvP.

          [–]mr_jawa -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

          The PvP crowd whines and moans until they get their way at the expense of PvE. There should be an option when logging in to deactivate PVP but still affect the galaxy AND interact with other players. Why should I have to fly through an empty universe because a few moronic sociopaths think it's fun to ruin my time.

          [–]Daffan????? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Ask them to make a second galaxy server with Open-only, then I can get behind making the current Open into Open-PvE.

          The most annoying thing in this game is everything being dictated by solo/PvE grinding. Who can grind more defenseless AI = wins.

          [–]Netskimmer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It's not so bad in open as long as you avoid the hot spots and run a proper setup. Too many people run cargo ships with little/no shields, crap engines, crap distributor, and no defenses. Most properly outfitted ships can survive long enough to wake out when interdicted if you do it right. You will lose some cargo space and some jump range, but that is how it should be.

          Mobius is also a perfectly valid choice for people who want player interaction without PVP.

          [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 5ポイント6ポイント  (17子コメント)

          I think the game would have many more players online if there was a way to protect yourself if you were not into PvP.

          There's plenty of ways. Better outfitting (more shields, less cargo) and better tactics are chief among them.

          [–]friendly_neighbour19 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

          more shields, less cargo

          That's the thing..people are greedy, that's why they have cargo racks instead of shields...

          [–]TelPrydain 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Or, Traders are happy with the risk of being pirated, but unwilling to deal with some dillweed blowing them up for giggles.

          If I'm pirated I'm happy to hand cargo over. That's fun - and it's part of the risk I take when i play an under-armed trader; in a way, my shield is the cargo I use to pay off the pirates.

          Of course, if the person in the fully engineered player-killer just wants me to eat a rebuy for 'reasons', I'm disinclined to give them the pleasure.

          [–]redredme 24ポイント25ポイント  (11子コメント)

          And there's the thing of shield killing torpedoes.... The shield bypassing lasers... etc.

          I fly in open but I do get it when people state these things. half... no scrap that, all engineer special weapon effects are crazy, hard to counter, impossible to balance almost game breaking things. just as the moronic possible shield values, the insane hull tanks and external modules made of... yeah what exactly......not even paper.

          ppl without time to grind the mats and stupendous engineer obligations will stay out of open since 2.1.. if they even can be bothered at all. Most of my (powerplay) friend list is empty. all the pre 2.1 regulars are gone, sometimes I see some of them log in for a few hours. And then they are gone again for 10-20 days. The engineers really hit our community hard. Yeah sure, NMS added fresh blood so the player numbers are (thank god) good enough. but we also need some of the old gen players...

          Powerplay PvP has for all intents and purposes ceased to exist. It's now far into november and I still can't PvP. it has become an almost non achievable goal: getting a PvP relevant FDL or Clipper. grinding imperial rank from scratch takes less time. I know that for a fact.

          It's a recurring theme in my posts but 2.1 was and still is truly game breaking. It killed a lot of fun stuff; it completely destroyed the level playing field as far as PvP is concerned. skill is these days of lesser importance, time to grind and number of rolls is the deciding factor. Time.. The stuff working peeps with a family don't really have. and lets face it: a lot of ppl playing Elite are older..ish and are having this exact problem.

          Engineers are stupid. There. I said it. again.

          [–]emptysoul365 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          100% agree. Engineers has resulted in a completely unbalanced mess when it comes to combat. The grind is more rewarded than skill.

          Weapons that bypass shields is quite possibly the biggest derp I have ever seen in game design.

          [–]MrHumhead 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Oh I have shields! Getting my cutter out of the mail slot can be comic relief at times. And when I boost, when I meant to lower landing gear. Fun.

          [–]JonticlesRinzler o7o7o7[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I have prismatic brakes on my cutter to help with docking

          [–]ryan_mryan_m17 | SDC 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yep, and god forbid you actually say that to anyone outside of this thread or you'll eat 20 downvotes.

          [–]soulassassinoPopededi 26ポイント27ポイント  (8子コメント)

          Go for Mobius until crime and punishment and the likes get fixed.

          [–]keasteskusuke 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Filthy casual here, what's mobius?

          [–]CadocCadoc [Utopia] 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Been playing in Open since launch, but that's what I'm doing once the next patch is out. Open is pretty dead anyway, and PvP where I'm always going to be 1 vs Wing and outclasses because I have zero interest in the mind-numbing tedium of Engineer grind holds absolutely no appeal to me. ED PvP used to be pretty fun, now it's trash, so why bother?

          [–]NitekPLNitek [pl] 1800+ Player kills -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          it is ok. It is the attitude of the community that has to be fixed. Shooting people is perfecly ok . This is westworld.

          [–]Elite-PhoenixPhoenix -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Or you could stop playing like a lemon and learn how to evade and escape. Its really not hard at all.

          [–]soulassassinoPopededi 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          My impression was that the person above had no interest in PvP, hence I recommended a perfectly valid option for them to consider.

          [–]waterlubber42waterlubber (Port E:D to GNU/Linux!) 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

          To each their own, if they want to play in Mobius so be it.

          Personally I play in Open with the exception of returning from exploration trips.

          [–]BlackixoBlackixo 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

          You outfit proper defenses with better shields to make hold off a wing long enough to high wake, there is nothing more to it. Stop thinking by playing in Open everyone is after to kill you, cuz that is simply not true. You're pretty safe as long as you stay away from CG and engineer system in Open.

          [–]snowmiserVRsnowmiser 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I get what you're saying but it kind of sucks that the recommendation for open play is to simply stay away from the interesting content.

          [–]BlackixoBlackixo 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I'm not saying you need to stay away from it indefinitely, but if you're want to head out to these systems don't show up in your trading conda with Class 4 shields and pretty much just the hull and expect you will survive an encounter with a mad CMDR or pirate. Come prepared or downgrade to another ship if you can't afford to properly outfit your current ship. I see too many CMDR's dropping good shields and defenses for max profit and blaming all other players for their bad situational awareness and decision making. If you don't want to make those changes to keep yourself alive then I recommend you stick to Solo/PG.

          [–]vsTerminusvsTerminus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Aka, don't participate in anything popular unless you are in a wing of engineered combat ships. Got it.

          [–]z0mbieleeS. Kubrick | Achenar Immortals 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          There are many ways to protect yourself and mitigate the risks. Open isn't the big scary cesspool that the carebears want you to think it is.

          [–]PretagonistPretagonist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I mostly play open. I don't go to the cgs or the main cheese sites. I hardly even see other players let alone get griefed by them. But that moment of terror when you spot a hollow square or triangle is one of the good parts of this game. Without danger there's no fun.

          [–]GravyTraynerShit Spotter | ABC | Confirmed Wanks: 2616 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (14子コメント)

          LOL.

          SDC and their pals throwing their toys out of the pram again.

          Hissy Fit #1000

          [–]five0ateCMDR Streetwater 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

          Yeah, the real motivation behind this is hating the idea of people having an escape hatch when they're being griefed.

          Is it cheating? Yes, it is. But there's only about 50 people in the game that give a shit. This wouldn't be an issue for them at all if they just PVP'd with people that actually want to PVP.

          Also, I bet they get a real chub in their trousers at the thought people getting banned for combat logging. Griefing people in-game and out.

          [–]omg_cowomgcow 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

          Powerplay ships combat log too, as do players at cg's that are detrimental to our particular superpower. So, yeah, no.

          [–]five0ateCMDR Streetwater 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

          Yeah, it's annoying, but I don't believe it's as rampant as you'd have us believe.

          The truth is that a minuscule amount players combat log and even fewer players give a shit.

          I might give a shit if you could prove my original point is completely false. That point being that the main source of people complaining about combat logging are foisting their style of gameplay onto anyone that crosses their path.

          I will never give a shit about griefers effectively being reverse-griefed.

          [–]omg_cowomgcow -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

          It really is. When pirating/greifing/powerplay it's above 50/70%/80% repectively, usually the instant they land into the instance before I even get a chance to message or fire at them, even against pvp combat ships it's above 30%.

          It's not reverse greifing it's cheating. If the wanted to reverse greif they'd build their ships non crappy and highwake or just stay away from jameson memorial. G-fucking-G.

          [–]five0ateCMDR Streetwater 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

          When pirating/greifing it's above 50/70%, usually the instant they land into the instance, even against pvp combat ships it's above 30%.

          Bloody hell, sounds like you've done some serious and legitimate research. Care to share it?

          [–]omg_cowomgcow -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

          I pirate, I greif with nitek every so often, I kill for Aisling. I get more combat logs than kills and wakes mate.

          [–]five0ateCMDR Streetwater 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

          You're one fucking player, mate. Just because you have that experience doesn't mean it's 70% of players or whatever. That's not how math works.

          [–]omg_cowomgcow -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

          How about you try it yourself instead of this meaningless "your experiences don't count".

          Being a part of SDC, powerplay groups, being freinds with many non greifer pvp'ers, legitimate defenders and pirates, this has been a recurring problem for at least 30+ of us that I know personally for a full year, full on greifer or not.

          [–]five0ateCMDR Streetwater 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Whatever you say, bro.

          I don't give a shit if someone combat logs on me. That's a kill in my head. Either they were too scared to fight back or too scared to rebuy.

          Where you guys get hung up is whether you made them rebuy and/or get sent to a Sidewinder.

          It's all about getting your jollies off by ruining someone else's time. Then when people deny you that pleasure you try to shame them for combat logging except no one gives a shit but you.

          [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

          To be clear:

          You're attacking the source of the information, not the information itself.

          You should google the phrase "Ad hominem"

          [–]Cmdr_ZeroWolf 63ポイント64ポイント  (9子コメント)

          I bet alot more ppl will start Combat Logging now that this article is out lol. The irony xD

          [–]sighup357 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          This isn't important. Frontier's support team has real work to do, I don't blame them for ignoring a petty complaint about another player.

          The upcoming balancing patch is the more relevant discussion to be having IMO.

          https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/309692-2-2-Update-Powerplay https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/309693-2-2-Update-Combat-Balance-Adjustments https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/309695-2-2-Update-Engineer-Blueprint-Balance-Adjustments

          [–]RedOctoberfestPoaArctica [Adle's Armada] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The support team aren't developers, they literally have nothing to do with the incoming patch.

          [–]ketilkn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I know right. Important issues like updating nitek on his pvp kills.

          [–]TurtleCommando 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Fucking insanity that it has to come to this. I have no other way to describe it. Shameful.

          [–]VicariousJambiCopy pasta guy 33ポイント34ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Apparently the only way to get our voices heard is to set the galaxy ablaze.

          [–]AuroraHalseyAurora Halsey 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Time for another Burn Jita.

          [–]Cmdr_ZeroWolf 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Yeah i hear ya. this is deplorable

          [–]Porsche95turboWizard_IRL | PvP Requires Authorized Consent 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

          A basket of clogging deplorables

          [–]ketilkn 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

          There was a guy who was banned for combat logging summer 2015. He was a low level subreddit celebrity, with many comments and quite a few posts. He was also part of a player group. Possibly AA.

          It was a huge outrage. The guy claimed he never combat logged. Frointer kept insisting they had telemetry proving otherwise. Friends and foes alike vouched for they guy. Eventually Frontier caved and unbanned him. Think it was over in a few days after the guy went for full reddit mobilisation. I do not remember the name but someone else might find the posts?

          Other than that I think we never seen anyone be banned from Elite for logging. Maybe Itchy and his friend was banned for a day for pissing people off? Not even <<<removed>>> is banned for his foul language.

          As for combat loggers it would be quite easy for Frontier to put them in their own private combatlogger space with other combat loggers. I think they should be banned from single and private as well. Just combat loggers everywhere. Maybe they should all have a shameful combat logger clown skin for their ships. Like the bad sports lobbies in GTA. They could combat log with each other. Everyone get to play, Everyone is happy. Right?

          Now before any of this. Fix crime and punishment!

          [–]PretagonistPretagonist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm actually all for lumping cheaters together with other cheaters. Don't even tell them. Also block the cheater groups from influencing the bgs and we're done.

          [–]ketilkn 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Not sure if this is the guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/3ficr7/i_am_marked_as_a_combat_logger_because_frontier/

          Adle's Armada. Was it only a warning? I am sure some one was banned and later unbanned for combat logging that summer/spring

          [–]MrSilk13642S!LK, Adle's Armada 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

          /u/isforads

          Yep I remember that! It was only a warning, but since he definitely NEVER combat logged and was getting punished for it, he decided to take it public.

          We take combat logging extremely seriously and will automatically boot people for doing it, even using the 15 second timer.

          [–]WinterborneTEStarlear [AA] 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

          It was him, no ban ever happened, he got an email saying he was being warned, then they went back and admitted they made a mistake. There was no Reddit mobilization that had anything to do with it and a ban was never given nor removed in the first place.

          [–]ketilkn 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Ok, thanks. My point was mostly that they at least did something one time. Turned out the made a mistake. Guess they left it there then?

          [–]isforadsFinegan [Adle's Armada] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I was never banned, but had a warning/negative mark put on my account. In the end FDev realized their combat logging detection was fallible and wiped the slate clean.

          [–]geoper 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Could be the reason we are in this situation now. They realized they had no real way to tell for certain when people were doing it.

          [–]CMDRHarkonenFriendly Biscuit - Adle's Armada 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I can't say I'm surprised, honestly.

          [–]StandingByToStandByBraus | Zero Four 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Nice writeup.

          [–]melancholymaxProtein Carrot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yeah the only person who I think has been penalized is a certain commnder who got reported for combat logging literally a hundred times or something who combat logged in eravate again literally like a hundred times and also combat logged on rinzler himself. Either he got banned or he did a name change.