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[–]Suada1976 35ポイント36ポイント  (16子コメント)

Wonderful article, the best refutation of Herman I have seen yet, thank you. If it isn't already clear Herman's dishonesty, consider my analysis of just one of his sources (there's lots more)

Use of unreliable testimony and suppression of relevant information: Mihailo Markovic

  1. In order to refute the view that Milosevic sought the creation of a Greater Serbia, Edward Herman cites the testimony of Mihailo Markovic, who is described as “a noted professor of philosophy and one of the founders of Praxis”. He cites Markovic’s testimony that Serbia did not commit any ethnic cleansing and that “ “Serbia still has today the same national structure that it had in the 1970s.”

  2. As well as being a “noted professor of philosophy”, Markovic was also vice president of Milosevic’s political party, the SPS, and thus one of the top functionaries of his regime. Markovic was Milosevic’s party ideologue throughout the war, and enunciated the principle that Serbia could become democratic only if it first became ethnically pure. Markovic himself admitted in an interview with Politika in 1991 that Milosevic's invocation of 'Yugoslavia' was just a cover for 'Greater Serbia' to avoid accusations of aggression against Croatia by the international community (which completely goes against Herman's claim that Milosevic was just trying to preserve Yugoslavia).

  3. Markovic’s testimony thus has little, if any, credibility. He was a long-standing Milosevic supporter and party official, who tried to present Milosevic in a favourable light as supporting multi-ethnic tolerance. Herman thus relies on a witness who could not be more biased in favour of Milosevic, and it is Herman’s dishonesty which leads him to conceal the salient facts about this witness from his readers.

  4. Moreover, Markovic’s specific claim is palpable nonsense. Throughout the 1990s, Serbian extremists harassed and intimidated into flight tens of thousands of Croats and Hungarians from Vojvodina, with at least some degree of official complicity. Bosnian Muslims in the Sandzak were subjected to discrimination, intimidation, deportations and even abduction and murder by the Yugoslav Army and Serb paramilitaries from Bosnia and Serbia. Kosovar Albanians were severely discriminated against, and were subjected to systematic ethnic cleansing and mass murder in 1998-1999.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 21ポイント22ポイント  (3子コメント)

In order to refute the view that Milosevic sought the creation of a Greater Serbia

Wait...Milosevic said, himself, numerous times, that he wanted to unite all Serbs in one country, regardless of what country it was now. Thats not creation of a greater Serbia?

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 30ポイント31ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nope, Herman just sees this as "self-determination". Unsurprisingly, he doesn't explain how he thinks the non-Serbs who would inevitably be left within this hypothetical enlarged Serbia are supposed to enact their own self-determination.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can see some micro level bits of self determination.

"I hate you dad! And this entire family! I'm joining Croatia!"

[–]Suada1976 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much what JFVarlet said. The Milosevic regime tended to avoid words like 'Greater Serbia', or 'all Serbs in one state', or refer to the expansion of Serbia in public. Instead they used euphemisms like 'the rights of those nations to remain in Yugoslavia', or 'self-determination for the Serb inhabitants of Croatia/Bosnia'. Unsurprisingly, Herman takes this self-serving rhetoric at face value.

But there is little doubt that, even if they avoided using the term, the expansion of Serbia is what they meant, and in reality they barely concealed this goal.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (11子コメント)

He cites Markovic’s testimony that Serbia did not commit any ethnic cleansing and that “ “Serbia still has today the same national structure that it had in the 1970s.”

It's also stupid because the charges largely aren't for ethnic cleansing in Serbia (except in Kosovo), but in Bosnia and Croatia. Serbia had no real need to commit ethnic cleansing within its own borders because none of its territory (again, except Kosovo) was being seriously contested.

At least one motive behind the ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia (as well as the Croats in Bosnia from 1993-94) was to expand the Serb demographic majority area by removing non-Serbs, in order to lay claim to a greater area when peace talks arrived. The fact that the West's peace plans continually involved some sort of ethnic division of Croatia and Bosnia only reinforced this motive. In Serbia proper this didn't matter because no-one seriously questioned that the territory was part of Serbia, so why would they bother with massacres and expulsions on the same scale as those in Bosnia?

It's a bit like saying that there weren't any extermination camps in Germany itself. It's true but completely missing the point.

[–]124876720Harry Flashman did nothing wrong 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's a bit like saying that there weren't any extermination camps in Germany itself.

Pedantry: Auschwitz was in Upper Silesia and Kulmhof was in the Wartheland. The German government at the time considered those areas to be as German as Bavaria or Berlin.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

True, but the rest of the world regarded them as illegally-annexed Occupied Polish territory, which was a quite crucial distinction when it came to Nuremburg.

[–]124876720Harry Flashman did nothing wrong 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indeed. I made the comment with the "Polish death camps" controversy in mind.

[–]jon_hendry 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

was to expand the Serb demographic majority area by removing non-Serbs, in order to lay claim to a greater area when peace talks arrived.

"Facts on the ground" as the Israelis say.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much. "Winning the census" is a term for the phenomenon which I quite like, after coming across the phrase in an article I read a while ago.

It also rarely if ever entirely works, it usually creates a frozen conflict zone that further entrenches the problems. See Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Northern Cyprus, etc. All situations where a de facto independent breakaway state exists and has done for decades, where new ethnic demographic "facts on the ground" have become established, but the breakaway state remains isolated and unrecognised.

It really does put peacemakers in an awkward situation. Ignoring the demographic changes and ethnic polarisation is impossible, but basing a political solution, even an internal one (e.g. Abkhazia returns to being de facto as well as de jure part of Georgia, but with additional autonomy), is in effect rewarding and encouraging ethnic cleansing.

I sympathise with that dilemma, but what really irritates me is that so many peacemakers see ethnic partition not as a last ditch solution to be invoked when there are no better alternatives, but the default one to begin negotiations with.

[–]DamnNatureY0uScary 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

At least one motive behind the ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia (as well as the Croats in Bosnia from 1993-94)

You conveniently leave out ethnic cleansing of others by Bosnians. Could you explain why?

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Because the Bosniaks never had such a motive, as their aim was not to carve out an ethnic state of their own within Bosnia (as the Bosnian Croats and Serbs did), but to keep Bosnia united as one state within its existing borders. This doesn't mean Bosniaks did not commit ethnic cleansing, but it does mean "winning the census" would not have been a motive behind it. It also makes an overall plan of cleansing less likely.

[–]DamnNatureY0uScary -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I believe you believe that. This is my hometown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Mostar

24000 Serbs "just left", as the wikipedia page says. I don't quite remember it as such. All other cities and towns under their control faired the same.

These guys also just left? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Sarajevo

Good talking to you, and have a good day.

[–]StrangeSemiticLatinWilliam Walker wanted to make America great 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank the Serbian parties back in Serbia and their "Greater Serbia" for that.

[–]Suada1976 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The main exodus of Serbs from Sarajevo occured in 1996 - AFTER the Dayton agreement and at the behest of the SDS themselves. While deliberately harassing seaches by the Bosnian police, and the (understandable) fear of reprisals and lack of security may have been a contributing factor, most sources agree that the exodus was organized by the SDS, who openly told people to leave and whose paramilitary thugs intimidated those who tried to stay. The exodus was so extensive that entire sectors of the city remained deserted for months, and the SDS systematically destroyed the abandoned suburbs so that the Federation would only inherit ruins (non-Serbs in these districts had already been expelled. Grbavica for instance was notorious for sexual violence inflicted on non-Serb women there).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQ1ZHjW15Q

The issue of atrocities and ethnic cleansing is a controversial one and one which is often used by propagandists on all sides. Although Serb atrocities were much more numerous, larger in scale and better documented, the Bosnian side also committed atrocities which I think need to be put on the table if you want to be truthful about what happened in history. Life for Serbs remaining in towns under Bosnian government control often became extremely difficult, especially as these towns became flooded with refugees (Savo Heleta’s book Not My Turn to Die: Memoirs of a Broken Childhood in Bosnia is a very good and well balanced account of his experiences in wartime Gorazde as a Serb). The SDS had extensively armed and mobilized the local Serb population during its attack on BiH in the spring of 1992, and as a result, the Serb population in government-controlled areas was seen as a potential fifth column. Bosnian offensives in 1993-1995 were also marked by atrocities. Enemy civilians in many areas were imprisoned, where they were often tortured and killed, especially early in the war. The most notorious Bosnian detention facilities were the Celebici camp near Konjic – in which around 700 Serb civilians and POWs from various villages were detained during an offensive to de-block the road between Konjic and Sarajevo (which was being blocked by the Serbs), and Tarcin near Sarajevo, in which around 600 Serb civilians and POWs were detained. These local vendettas sullied Bosnia’s defence efforts and poisoned already destroyed inter-ethnic relations, but there was no doubt amongst neutral observers and international organizations as to which side was furthering the war and which bore primarily responsibility for atrocities.

This atrocity factor is an important factor in explaining the Serbian exodus in the wake of Bosnian advances and from Bosnian controlled towns and cities, especially as Serb propagandists regularly inflated and invented atrocities (for example Naser Oric).

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 79ポイント80ポイント  (1子コメント)

(cont. Part 2)

A basic problem throughout has been the fact that there was severe fighting between the thousands of Bosnian Muslim 25th regiment soldiers, who left Srebrenica for Bosnian Muslim lines on or shortly before July 11, 1995, and Bosnian Serb forces.

I don't know why Herman refers to the "25th regiment", when the relevant ARBiH unit in Srebrenica was the 28th Division (and 6,000 would be too many for a regiment besides). When the division was divided into slightly smaller units, it was generally into brigades.

Both Bosnian Muslim and Serb officials have estimated that 2,000 or more Muslim soldiers were killed in this retreat; the Bosnian Muslim Chief of the Supreme Command Staff General Enver Hadzihasanovic testified in the trial of Radislav Krstic that he could "claim for certainty that 2,628 members, both soldiers and commanding officers, members of the 28th Division, were killed" during this retreat.

I've been through this above - this would still leave a mostly civilian death count. Also, that 2,628 includes those killed (or captured and later killed) anywhere on the journey from Srebrenica to Tuzla. Some of those died a long way from Srebrenica and wouldn't come up in the mass graves there.

Also, the events that led to the capture and killings of the men Hadzihasanovic is talking about were pretty far from “severe fighting” – in fact they’ve more often been described as a manhunt of 15,000 men, the vast majority of whom were unarmed, attempting to make their way undetected through about over 50 miles of Serb-held territory.

According to an analysis of the autopsy reports compiled by the Office of the Prosecutor at the ICTY from 1995 to 2002 by the Serb forensic expert Ljubisa Simic, in roughly 77 percent of the bodies associated with these reports it was either impossible to determine the manner of death (i.e., execution or combat) or the manner of death strongly suggested that it was in combat.

Herman dismisses Croat, Bosniak and ICTY as biased, and then takes Serb statements as a given. No sign of bias there. Also, Simic, like Herman, was already blatantly on the Serb side before he analysed the bodies, and thinks there are actually only ~2,000 bodies there at all.

This uncertainty was very convenient, because, with a compliant ICTY, Bosnian Muslim investigative authority, and media, they could all be quietly assumed to have been executed.

They didn't 'quietly assume' anything, because Simic's analysis was thrown out because the analysis of the International Commission on Missing Persons completely contradicted it.

There is no doubt that there were at least several hundred executions in the Srebrenica area in July 1995, as 443 ligatures and "at least" 448 blindfolds were found in the mass graves

Herman is basing this on his earlier figure of ~2,000 bodies exhumed by 2001, which tells us nothing about the more than 4,000 others exhumed since then.

but there is no serious evidence that more Bosnian Muslims were executed there than the number of civilians killed by Croatian forces in Operation Storm in the following month.

Well, I don’t know exactly how many Herman meant by the “several thousand” he claimed died in Storm. It could be more than the Srebrenica, could be less. But as I said above, his claim is garbage anyway, so it doesn’t matter.

The Bosnian Serbs were in a vengeful mood as the "safe area" of Srebrenica had long been the military base from which Bosnian Muslim forces went out to attack nearby Serb towns. Many scores of these towns were assaulted and several thousand Serbs were killed in these actions in the several years before July 1995.

For a start, Herman is completely ignoring the other side of this time period. The Bosniaks had never abided by the terms of the “safe area” agreement, it’s true – but neither had the Serbs; they kept their heavy weaponry and tanks around Srebrenica when they were supposed to withdraw them to a safe distance. Bosniak raids from the Srebrenica enclave did happen, yes – but so did Serb raids into it (though admittedly fewer, because it didn’t benefit the Serbs militarily as much). Oh, and there’s the small matter that Srebrenica was a town under siege, already incredibly overcrowded (more than 40,000 people inhabiting a town that before the war had been the home of just 9,000), and the VRS were blocking humanitarian food convoys in an attempt to starve the Bosniaks into submission (indeed, it has been suggested that the Bosniak raids were more motivated by a desperate attempt to steal supplies rather than any particular military aim). But no, according to Herman, only the Serbs had any reason to be in a “vengeful mood”.

This may be a pedantic point, but I also want to touch on his reference to “Serb towns”. For a start, these settlements are for the most part villages, not towns – we’re talking about places with a population of a few hundred. Also, Herman of course neglects to mention the reason they were Serb towns – their (usually majority) Bosniak populations had been murdered or expelled in the preceding years.

Also, again, his casualty figures are nonsense. In fact, I’ll give his reference for “several thousand” here:

Serb historian Milivoje Ivanisevic lists the names of 3,287 Serbs, most of them civilians, who were killed in the Srebrenica-Birac region, 1992-1995; Srebrenica July 1995 (Belgrade: Christian Thought, 2008).

Again, Herman’s policy on estimates is that Croat, Bosniak, ICTY and UN estimates are inherently biased and therefore unreliable, but Serb estimates are a completely reliable source. And for the record, this isn’t even in tune with other Serb estimates, including those of Ivanisevic himself – the referenced book is actually his second on Srebrenica, his earlier one having given the noticeably lower number of about 1,200. This is already a comparatively high estimate; the Republika Srpska’s Commission for War Crimes puts the number at 995. Nor were they mostly civilian; quite the opposite; the RDC puts the military:civilian casualty ratio at more than 3:1. Unshockingly, the VRS used the villages surrounding the enclave as military outposts, rather than simply leaving them as totally civilian settlements; indeed, they even based artillery in some of them.

Naser Oric, the Bosnian Muslim military commander in those years, actually bragged about his killings to Western journalists, showing them videos of beheadings, and acknowledging an action which had left 114 Serb dead. What a field day the ICTY would have had if such admissions, and videos, had been attributable to Karadzic, or Mladic, or Milosevic!

Herman references two articles here, one by Bill Schiller for the Toronto Star, one by John Pomfret for the Washington Post, both from early 1994. I can’t track down the original of the former, though I have found a similar article by Schiller from July 1995 in which he discusses his meeting with Oric again, so I’ll base my criticism on that.

Neither article mentions seeing beheadings in the video. They mention seeing severed heads and headless bodies, but no actual beheadings. This may seem a minor issue (the fact that the videos didn’t show them doesn’t prove Oric and his men did not kill people by beheading them), but it’s another example of Herman stretching the information to fit his point.

As for the 114 Serb dead, the article in question (Schiller’s) does not refer to one action, but one town (and so very possibly several separate actions). It says nothing about whether the dead were military or civilian.

Also, Herman by placing this just after his discussion of “safe area” violations, implies the events of Oric’s raids described in these articles were among those violations. Yet Schiller himself says:

These video reminiscences, apparently, were from what Muslims regard as Oric's glory days. That was before most of eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica became a "safe zone" with U.N. peacekeepers inside - and Serbs on the outside.

i.e. Oric didn't violate the safe area because it didn't exist yet.

But given their attribution to an alleged defender of a victim population, Oric could get away with murder.

“Murder” here meaning “killing enemy fighters in a war”.

The EU resolution of January 2009 mentions twice that Srebrenica was "a protected zone" by virtue of a UN Security Council ruling, and that "Muslim men and boys . . . had sought safety in this area under the protection" of UN protection forces, so that the massacre "stands as a symbol of the impotence of the international community." But the Resolution fails to mention that the protected zone was supposed to have been demilitarized, but wasn't. Naser Oric and his fighting cadres had not been disarmed, and many attacks on Serb villages had been launched from the "protected area."

And as noted above, it wasn’t just the Bosniaks who were supposed to demilitarise – the Serbs around Srebrenica were too, and they never did, and continued to shell Srebrenica with their artillery.

(cont. below)

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 69ポイント70ポイント  (0子コメント)

(Part 3)

Furthermore, in July 1995 there were several thousand well-armed Bosnian Muslim soldiers of the 25th regiment located in the town.

No, there were several thousand badly armed, many even unarmed, Bosnian Muslim soldiers of the 28th Division located in the town. Many of these men were armed with little more than pistols and hunting rifles. They were cut off by more than 50 miles from the main RBiH-held territory, while being surrounded by VRS troops, who contrary to Herman’s claim, were the actual well-armed ones, having inherited a huge chunk of equipment, including artillery, war planes and tanks (the 28th Division had none of any of these), as well as the best-trained men and officers, from the old (Serb-dominated) Yugoslav Army, and being well-supplied by Milosevic in Belgrade too.

It deceives (and lies) secondly in saying men and boys had "sought safety" in Srebrenica, implying that these were civilians, not the 25th regiment.

The bulk of them were. There were ~20,000 men and boys in Srebrenica in 1995, only 6,000 of whom were soldiers. Herman unsurprisingly again neglects to mention the systematic massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bosniaks from the areas around Srebrenica in the preceding years, which is what these people were fleeing to Srebrenica from.

It contains other lies: one is that there was "rape of a large number of women," a charge for which there has never been any evidence whatsoever.

Witness testimonies (including from Dutchbat) don’t count as evidence according to Herman.

The fact that a well-armed Bosnian Muslim regiment of several thousand men was located in Srebrenica, and retreated without putting up any defense against a Serb attack force of 200, shows that the charges against the lightly armed Dutch peacekeeping contingent of 69 men are ridiculous and misdirected.

Unless by ‘200’, Herman actually means, ‘1,500-2,000, supported by several hundred paramilitaries from Serbia, Russia and Greece, with another 2,000 reinforcements if they needed them’, he’s making up numbers here. And as I said, the VRS soldiers were vastly better equipped and supplied than the 28th Division.

Why not sue the Bosnian Muslims responsible for the retreat for any deaths that followed in the Srebrenica area?

Because the Dutchbat soldiers in question were not charged with simply failing to protect the town, but with complicity in the massacre that followed. That charge cannot be levelled at the retreating Bosniak soldiers.

Another Srebrenica memorial myth is that the memorial and political actions associated with it are necessary for real peace. In the words of the EU resolution, "there cannot be real peace without justice," which means getting Mladic into court, and this is essential for "reconciliation" so that "civilians of all ethnicities may overcome the tensions of the past." But how about justice for the thousands of Serbs killed from the UN-protected Srebrenica base between 1992 and July 1995, the 250,000 driven out of Krajina in Operation Storm, and the thousands of Serbs and Roma driven out of Kosovo since the NATO takeover and installation of the KLA in power?

Again, I can’t speak as to Kosovo, but many Croats have been put on trial for atrocities perpetrated during Storm. Tudjman and Šušak have never been put on trial for the simple reason that it’s quite hard to try dead people. However, at the time Herman was writing here, the ICTY trials of generals Ante Gotovina, Ivan Čermak and Mladen Markač for atrocities during Storm were all ongoing.

And to finish off, a couple more pieces of evidence that Herman opts to miss out – the testimonies of VRS soldiers. If the massacre at Srebrenica did not happen, as Herman claims, how does he explain the testimony of Dražen Erdemović, who testified that he was part of a VRS unit charged by Mladic with killing 1,200 Bosniak men and boys from Srebrenica, and that he killed around 70 personally? Erdemović is all the more convincing given that he actually sought out an ABC reporter to confess to his crimes and freely turned himself in to ICTY. Had he stayed quiet, he probably never would have been arrested. Or Dragan Obrenović, who confessed and gave plenty of information of ICTY regarding the whole massacre, including instructions from his superiors to kill all the Bosniak men? Both men have now served their sentences and been released, and neither have yet renounced their testimonies. Why do they say the massacre took place, if it did not?

In summary, Herman plays bait-and-switch with numbers all the way through, with the occasional made up number for good measure too. He rejects ICTY, UN, Croat and Bosniak figures and accounts as biased, yet uncritically accepts Serb ones as gospel truth. But most crucially of all, this is not “the other side” history. He’s not saying that a portrayal of the Bosnian War as “Bosniaks good, Serbs bad” is too simplistic and biased and then presenting the more complex narrative; he’s simply trying to reverse the narrative to make the Serbs the good guys and the Bosniaks the evil ones instead.

Maybe I’ll deal with Rwanda as well in another post, but this has taken me a while to put together, so it might take a while to do another one. Also, Herman has also done a longer set of articles on the breakup of Yugoslavia as a whole which I’ve started reading, but I don’t anticipate longer actually meaning it contains any more actual fact.

Anyway, hope you made it all the way through that, appreciate it was long!

Sources (at least, my main ones, ICTY has truckloads of relevant documents, and they can at times be hard to keep track of which is which):

Naser Oric judgement

Radislav Krstic judgement

Krstic case information sheet

Gotovina et al judgement summary

Popovic et al judgement

[–]ManicMarineSemper Hindustan Super Omnes 50ポイント51ポイント  (99子コメント)

Fantastic write up, I was vaguely aware that some people denied/downplayed the atrocities in the former Yugoslavia. It's great to read a systematic takedown of it.

What I didn't know was that some people contemporary intellectuals denied the Rwandan genocide. What's up with that? Why would someone like Herman want to deny something like that, and what does he think actually happened in 1994? Hell, 20% of Rwanda's population was killed, what does he think happened to them?

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 46ポイント47ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, first I should say that there are some people who advance a "double genocide" account of Rwanda, saying that there was one large genocide of Tutsis by Hutu militias, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, and a smaller genocide of Hutus by the RPF, numbering in the tens of thousands.

Herman goes the whole way in reversal, and claims that the hundreds of thousands of deaths were actually virtually all Hutus killed by the RPF. So technically he doesn't deny the deaths as such, just claims they were actually of other people.

Why would someone like Herman want to deny something like that

Rwanda is really bizarre for this. In Yugoslavia, at least Herman's narrative of an anti-West Serbia and a pro-West Croatia and RBiH somewhat works - Milosevic was undoubtedly close to Moscow, and Tudjman close to Brussels and the EU.

In Rwanda on the other hand, Herman continually claims that the West was pro-Kagame and the RPF, and anti-Habyarimana and the Rwandan Hutu regime. If anything, it was the opposite - the RPF wasn't receiving any open aid from the US or anyone in the West, while Habyarimana was getting pretty open support from France.

[–]TiakoTevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, first I should say that there are some people who advance a "double genocide" account of Rwanda,

It's not entirely inaccurate--Kagame's forces were and are rather infamous for their brutality in action where they see the potential for Hutu insurrection, particularly in the DRC. But it is a bit difficult to make the leap from targeted acts of ethnic cleansing to full blown genocide, and there was never an equivalent of the interhamwe.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is 'Dancing in the Glory of Monsters' considered sound?

[–]Suada1976 33ポイント34ポイント  (17子コメント)

.

I've had the misfortune of reading Herman's denialist writing on Rwanda as well. Behind the confident and sneery prose lies a mass of distortion, manipulation, innuendo and outright fabrication that is wholly unacceptable to serious historical scholarship.

Herman dismisses all the academics, human rights activists, journalists and obervers in Rwanda at the time or shortly after as either RPF groupies or as lackies for the US State Department. For example, the late Alison Des Forges, one of the most prominent scholars and activists on the Rwanda, author of a highly respected encyclopedia study of the genocide, and one of the very few people in the west to speak Kinyarwanda is dismissed with the following disgusting smear: "[Prior to 1993], des Forges had worked for the US Department of State and National Security Council....Alison Des Forge's career is best understood in terms of the services she performed on behalf of US power-projection in Central Africa, with this policy-oriented work couched in the rhetoric of 'human rights'. In the process, Des Forges badly misinformed a whole generation of scholars, activists, and the cause of peace and justice."

[–]phoenixbasileus 24ポイント25ポイント  (16子コメント)

Does Herman actually believe this shit? Or is it just an extension of "anything the West does must be bad"

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 36ポイント37ポイント  (9子コメント)

Or is it just an extension of "anything the West does must be bad"

Pretty much, but I really can't understand this motive regarding Rwanda. Rwanda is already an anti-Western cynic's dream; the West couldn't stop itself intervening in Yugoslavia, but when a much larger genocide was taking place in Africa, where they had nothing at stake, they wouldn't lift a finger for them; indeed, the French propped up the Hutu regime. It seems Herman just wants to be contrarian and controversial there.

Herman: Kagame is literally Lincoln.

[–]Beansareno1Judeo-bolshevik 25ポイント26ポイント  (8子コメント)

Its a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In Yugoslavia it is wrong that they intervened, in Rwanda it is wrong because they didn't.

In Lybia intervention was wrong, in Syria its wrong not to intervene.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

In Lybia intervention was wrong, in Syria its wrong not to intervene.

Explain?

[–]Beansareno1Judeo-bolshevik 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is a common sentiment. People argue that the bombing of Gadaffi brought the Civil War on Lybia. The same people criticize "the West" for not engaging IS enough.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I might have screwed up my chronology but wasn't Libya fully engulfed in civil war by the time it was getting bombed by external parties?

[–]smurfyjenkinsJar Jar did nothing wrong 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was but Gaddafi's forces had retaken rebel territory and were marching on the last rebel stronghold when the multi-state coalition intervened. Some critics of the intervention in Libya use the counterfactual that if there had been no intervention, the Gaddafi regime would have defeated the rebels and Libya would be better off. The 'any state is better than no state' argument.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The 'any state is better than no state' argument.

Ugh. Give me Nestor Ivanovitch over Stalin anyday.

[–]smurfyjenkinsJar Jar did nothing wrong 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

At the time of the Libyan intervention, critics argued that it was hypocritical of the West not to intervene in Syria, given that mass atrocities and human rights violations were occurring there as well. It was seen a sign that the humanitarian concerns of the intervenors were not genuine and that the intervenors were driven by national self-interests or acting on behalf of Western businesses interests with some kind of stake in Libya.

[–]TROPtasticwhite people were originally a small tribe of albino outcasts 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The exposure of western business interests to conflict in Libya was extremely limited. If this was about instability in Saudi Arabia or the UAE, then the business interest argument holds more water.

[–]jon_hendry 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If it were driven by Western business interests, surely the best thing to do would have been to prop up Gaddafi, who was already doing business with Western firms.

"critics argued that it was hypocritical of the West not to intervene in Syria"

This is true. However such critics were pretending that all interventions are equal. The reason to intervene in Libya, and not Syria, is that Libya was a lot easier. "Intervening there would be too costly in funds, materiel, or our casualties" is a perfectly acceptable reason for not engaging in military conflict.

[–][deleted] 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

The answer can be both, can it not?

[–]phoenixbasileus 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm wondering what's worse, genuine belief or cynical politicising

[–]first_five-eighthGlobal Zionist Conspiracy 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Genuine belief is scarier. As detestable as cynical self-interest is, at least I can understand it.

[–]phoenixbasileus 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the other hand, you're pushing an argument you know is faulty or don't really believe (abhorrent as it might be) just because it suits you to do so

[–]first_five-eighthGlobal Zionist Conspiracy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right. They're both terrible. I just prefer the evil I know to the evil I don't.

[–]WARitterReductio Ad Hitlerum 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

If your premise, as in Manufacturing Consent, is that the forces governing US Policy are esoteric machinations independent of anything the US actually -says-, then you can be believe anything.

[–]mudsill 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

What I didn't know was that some people contemporary intellectuals denied the Rwandan genocide. What's up with that? Why would someone like Herman want to deny something like that, and what does he think actually happened in 1994? Hell, 20% of Rwanda's population was killed, what does he think happened to them?

If you wanna see Herman get absolutely fuckin shredded because of his genocide denial regarding Rwanda this is a pretty good piece.

[–]WxnzxnBut Nazis liberated eastern Europe! (From its population) 47ポイント48ポイント  (16子コメント)

I was vaguely aware that some people denied/downplayed the atrocities in the former Yugoslavia

As a socialist myself, it is one of the things I am deeply ashamed of when it's brought up all the time in some leftist circles. Taught me the valuable lesson that there are idiots, maniacs and arseholes following all political thought.

Those people like to take anything that can remotely be used as anti-western and run with it, and it can become pretty disgusting. Revisionism is ripe with those people, rears its ugly head all the time.

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Fellow Leftist and I agree. When somebody spells America "AmeriKKKa" or similar edgy, juvinile shit I feel free to ignore everything they say.

[–]alynnidalarThere needs to be cooked is the rice. - /u/badhistory_ss 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wait, people do that seriously? I thought that was always just people being sarcastic...

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Go to /r/socialism, BS is common.

[–][deleted] 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

On second thought let's no go to /r/socialism, tis a silly place.

[–]commiespaceinvaderHistory self-managment in Femguslavia 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

As a socialist myself, it is one of the things I am deeply ashamed of when it's brought up all the time in some leftist circles.

Same here. It is disgusting and shameful and the rampant pro-Milosevic sentiment in some circles is really off-putting to put it lightly.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

Its a tack on to semi-prevalent 'Anyone but America (the USA)' type stuff in some circles. If America is bad, anyone opposed to it must be good.

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

I call them "Hate-America-Firsters".

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

So they're HAF wits?

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

My sides!!!

[–]124876720Harry Flashman did nothing wrong 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hands off New York! Power to the New Amsterdam Resistance Collective!

[–]probablyanameNotable Savage 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll never understand those type of people--like I'm pretty far left and openly critical of the USA's foreign policy and domestic polices but I don't go out of my way to whitewash other peoples bullshit. It's still bullshit not matter what type of bow tie you put on it.

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indeed.

[–]trampabroad 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

As an aside, the phrase "Bosnian Muslim soldiers" throughout the denial should be setting off your bullshit alarm bells. Funny how he never mentions "Orthodox Serbs" or "Catholic Croatians." It's the closest he can sneak to the line of saying "don't sympathise for them, they're different."

As an aside, the Bosnian army was unique in not appealing to racism or religion. It was the most mixed of any of the republics, had ethnic Serbs in its army, and used the symbolism of all three religions in its propaganda. To paint it as a "Muslim Army" is either stupefyingly ignorant or deliberately misleading.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a socialist myself, it is one of the things I am deeply ashamed of when it's brought up all the time in some leftist circles.

Same here, I'm an anarchist and I find it disgusting.

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a socialist myself, it is one of the things I am deeply ashamed of when it's brought up all the time in some leftist circles. Taught me the valuable lesson that there are idiots, maniacs and arseholes following all political thought.

Bingo. I'm in the same boat.

[–]WARitterReductio Ad Hitlerum 34ポイント35ポイント  (39子コメント)

I am pretty sure that people like Herman are dedicated to the idea that since humanitarian intervention is simply a sham for western Imperialism, any massacre or genocide used to justify intervention is simply atrocity propaganda.

One could note that some of the first non-German Holocaust Deniers were Western Pacifists who wanted to discredit the idea tht the Nazis were worth fighting.

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

One could note that some of the first non-German Holocaust Deniers were Western Pacifists who wanted to discredit the idea tht the Nazis were worth fighting.

One of the ways I like mocking Libertarian isolationist types is to remind them of Pre-WW2 conservative and libertarian isolationists, many of whom had pro-Nazi sentiments.

[–]WARitterReductio Ad Hitlerum 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or the post war ones. Wills Carto and the Paul's are pretty closely connected IIRC.

[–]JJFO 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

non-German Holocaust Deniers were Western Pacifists

Do you have a source for that? For one the Holocaust didn't get going until the war was in full swing (Though Jews were being repressed well before), and two, no one that I know of used what was happening to the Jews as a justification for war,few gave a shit from what I know.

I am pretty sure that people like Herman are dedicated to the idea that since humanitarian intervention is simply a sham for western Imperialism

The idea is that since the UN has said that there should be intervention when a genocide is going on, the word "genocide" has been redefined to mean "reason the US gives for invading". I've never seen people straight up deny what happened there like this guy, but many question Tha use of the word "genocide" to describe it. It was terrible, but just an ethnic cleansing of one town, not nearly on the level of what happened to the Jews during WWII or the Armenians after WWI. One could point out that words tend to lose their meaning over time (see blizzard and fascist), but many see a more nefarious element to it where the US government chooses what constitutes a genocide based on whether or not they want to invade. Straight up denial as this guy is doing is taking it to another degree though.

[–]WARitterReductio Ad Hitlerum 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be clear, the denial happened -after- the war.

The main figure I had in mind was Harry Elmer Barnes; from the US Holocaust Museum: "1966-67: American historian Harry Elmer Barnes publishes articles in the Libertarian periodical Rampart Journal claiming that the Allies overstated the extent of Nazi atrocities in order to justify a war of aggression against the Axis powers."

To be fair, his anti-war stance is muddled by a general pro-German perspective.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008003

[–]DarkBowels 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I understand and agree with your point, but just to clear something up about the demographics. It wasn't just the town of Srebrenica, which housed less than 3000 Muslims before the war, it was the entire srebrenica municipality plus the surrounding area. In all about 40,000 were living there throughout the war. Nowhere near the scale of atrocities during ww2, but ww2 was also a much larger theatre all together.

[–]BreaksFullUnrepentant Carlinboo 17ポイント18ポイント  (19子コメント)

Jesus, no one tell Delaire about this guy.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I wonder how Herman would explain Dallaire. Was he in on it? If he was, why were his constant requests for more troops denied? If he wasn't, then why is his account of the Interahamwe as the mass killers of Tutsis wrong?

[–]phoenixbasileus 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

The hero we needed in 1994

[–]BreaksFullUnrepentant Carlinboo 8ポイント9ポイント  (16子コメント)

Read Handshake With the Devil if you ever want to lose faith in humanity.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 12ポイント13ポイント  (7子コメント)

We Regret to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families by Phillip Gourevitch is another really good, really visceral one about Rwanda (and really, with a snappy title like that, what else could it be?).

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

It doesn't come up as often as it should on Rwanda reading lists, but Nigel Eltringham's Accounting For Horror is excellent in terms of summarising the debate and themes around the genocide. There's a great chapter where he compares Rwanda to the Holocaust and other genocides, and notes that people will say things about Rwanda that no-one would ever think of saying about the Holocaust (such as the genocide being a 'tribal war', or an inevitable result of Malthusian overpopulation).

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That one sounds excellent. I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the recommendation!

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do any of these books go over the role played by the French intervention ? I'm French myself and I've been trying to build an opinion on this, but our media's reports on it tend to be very politicised and confused.

[–]GobtheCyberPunkStuart, Ewell, and Pickett did the Gettysburg Screwjob 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

There's also "Machete Season" by Jean Hetzfeld, which is basically a compilation of interviews with people who actually committed the genocide. That one is horrifying because of not only how blunt and nonchalant they are about discussing the abhorrent violence they committed, but also how even those who recognize their guilt expect forgiveness from the families of those they slaughtered. They genuinely believe that they are entitled to forgiveness for a meaningless apology.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

It sounds like it's along the same lines as the The Act of Killing. I'll check that one out too.

[–]GobtheCyberPunkStuart, Ewell, and Pickett did the Gettysburg Screwjob 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's similar except it's not quite as soul-destroying because at least many of them were punished (to some degree... some only did a couple of years in prison...), as opposed to the guys in The Act of Killing who are literally glorified and performing musicals about their crimes.

[–]BreaksFullUnrepentant Carlinboo 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

'It was just a prank bro.'

[–]phoenixbasileus 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Way ahead of you. tfw he talked about how a feral dog lunged at him while he was in a UN vehicle because it had a taste for human.

[–]BreaksFullUnrepentant Carlinboo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]GobtheCyberPunkStuart, Ewell, and Pickett did the Gettysburg Screwjob 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Seriously. I feel more sympathy for Romeo Dallaire than any person on earth.

It would like if the Allies had a small army stationed at Auschwitz and told the commander to stand there and do nothing but watch the camp, but he could not intervene.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

I understand why they wanted to focus on the heroism of a native black Rwandan in the genocide, but replacing Dallaire with Nick Nolte's expy "Colonel Oliver" in Hotel Rwanda really did him an injustice.

As much as it doesn't seem like much alongside the astounding bloodbath that took place, 30-40,000 people are alive because of what Romeo Dallaire and his men did, and that deserves recognition.

[–]GobtheCyberPunkStuart, Ewell, and Pickett did the Gettysburg Screwjob 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

As much as it doesn't seem like much alongside the astounding bloodbath that took place, 30-40,000 people are alive because of what Romeo Dallaire and his men did, and that deserves recognition.

Absolutely, but the problem to Dallaire himself is that he had a plan that with only a few thousand more troops and a few more vehicles he believes he could have saved tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands more, and regardless of why the plan didn't happen (hint - it was the Clinton administration and the French and Belgian governments), he considers it a failure.

[–]gplnd 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

You might be interested in a book by Alan Kuperman in which (among other things) he "tests" some of Dallaire's claims about the efficacy of manpower in Rwanda.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Limits-Humanitarian-Intervention-Genocide/dp/0815700857

[–]GobtheCyberPunkStuart, Ewell, and Pickett did the Gettysburg Screwjob 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm I think I would.

Regardless I doubt that would be any comfort to Dallaire, even if he did believe it.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

(hint - it was the Clinton administration and the French and Belgian governments)

Another reason I have always said and will always say fuck the Clintons.

[–]commiespaceinvaderHistory self-managment in Femguslavia 14ポイント15ポイント  (14子コメント)

Awesome write-up. Is Yugoslavia perchance your area of study?

Also, it's been a while since I have seen texts like Herrman's. I remember when it was en vogue in certain circles of the left to take a pro-Serbian stance surrounding the wars of the 90s and Kosovo due to the opposition to European, US, and NATO policies at the time. And while the brake-up of Yugoslavia is ~complicated~ and there is certainly a discussion to be had on responsibilities that lead to the war, some people just went full-on Milosevic back in the day.

Peter Handke for example was one of the people who went on to become one of Milosevics and Karadzic defenders. I never understood why people like him or Herrman for that matter, were not just content with criticizing Western politics but had to go into Genocide denial mode, which - to put it lightly - discredits you and your criticism wholesale, in my opinion.

Edited to add: With regards to Herman and Rwanda and also this: His whole the "politicization of genocide" thing doesn't really make a lot of sense, does it? Wouldn't it be more consistent to criticize the lack of intervention in Rwanda by Western countries because only certain genocides are politicized rather than the outright denial that it happened the way it did? But that would probably veer off into R2 territory....

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is Yugoslavia perchance your area of study?

It's ethnic cleansing and genocide in general, and in particular the motivations for it, but Yugoslavia and especially Bosnia are pretty crucial case studies for this.

His whole the "politicization of genocide" thing doesn't really make a lot of sense, does it? Wouldn't it be more consistent to criticize the lack of intervention in Rwanda by Western countries because only certain genocides are politicized rather than the outright denial that it happened the way it did?

Exactly. Hell, Warren Christopher banned State Department officials from referring to the events in Rwanda as genocide at the time - there's an infamous radio interview where one of them (I forget who, sorry), answered the question "Is this genocide?" by distinguishing between 'a genocide' and 'an act of genocide' (which is sometimes a useful distinction, but in Rwanda calling it anything other than a full-scale genocide was ridiculous).

[–]commiespaceinvaderHistory self-managment in Femguslavia 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

ethnic cleansing and genocide in general

Interesting. I'm a Holocaust and Nationalsocialism historian and I'd be interested to hear your take on the relation of the two fields. There is a lot of discussion within my field if we a re basically doing a disservice to the field of genocide studies by pushing a Holocaust narrative so hard, it becomes the "measuring standard" for other genocides.

I'd also be really interested what your thoughts are on Ben Kiernan since his definition of genocide seems really expansive compared to others.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

And while the brake-up of Yugoslavia is ~complicated~ and there is certainly a discussion to be had on responsibilities that lead to the war, some people just went full-on Milosevic back in the day.

What do you make of this documentary?

It seems to put a lot of, well lets call it blame, on Milosevic and the Serbian supporters for using rising Serb nationalism in Kosovo to seize power. I'm not saying Yugoslavia would have been fine otherwise (unknowable/unprovable counterfactual etc.) but what, if any, is the counter arguement to this?

I never understood why people like him or Herrman for that matter, were not just content with criticizing Western politics but had to go into Genocide denial mode

My guess would be its a strong form of Second Opinion bias.

[–]commiespaceinvaderHistory self-managment in Femguslavia 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I have seen the documentary some time ago and I think it is a good documentary. And Milosevic and his supporters are no doubt the political forces most responsible for the rising and escalation of tensions in Yugoslavia as well as bearing a huge responsibility for the later escalation of genocidal violence and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.

What I should have phrased better: Events in Yugoslavia didn't develop in a vacuum and at several turns, international powers as well as for example the Croatian leadership did decide on a course of action that if not escalated the whole situation, did nothing to deescalate it. That is not to say, that they bear the same historical responsibility as Milosevic and his supporters or the Republica Srpska people, but just to make it a point that a historical analysis that acknowledges the complex realities of the situation can and should be had and that neither the break-up nor the genocide were inevitable.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yup, Tudjman was undoubtedly a bastard who contributed far more than his fair share to escalating the situation and bringing about the war, but you can't understand how Tudjman came about in power in Croatia without the pre-existing context of Milosevic in power in Serbia.

[–]commiespaceinvaderHistory self-managment in Femguslavia 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also, the policies of Yugoslavia's neighbours, especially Mock and Genscher, are important to take into consideration imo. There is a point in the assertion that there was a vested interest in breaking up Yugoslavia on their parts. However, there is also a point in stating that they could not have foreseen the consequences such as they played out.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mock and Genscher

Who are these two and why are they important?

[–]killswitch247Random Flair from *that* thread. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

genscher was the german minister for the exterior / foreign minister and mock his austrian counterpart.

genscher was in this position for decades and relatively independent from chancellor kohl in his decisions (in contrast to other foreign ministers, chancellors often intervene in foreign politics)

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

that neither the break-up nor the genocide were inevitable.

Ah yes, certainly. I like to tell people that form 10, 50, 100 years in the future of course history looks inevitable. Of course what I did today was no more inevitable than what people did 10, 50, 100 years ago.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

It seems to put a lot of, well lets call it blame, on Milosevic and the Serbian supporters for using rising Serb nationalism in Kosovo to seize power.

That's largely accurate, though I think people exaggerate some tendencies of Milosevic. He really wasn't an ideological nationalist like Karadzic, Mladic, Seselj, etc., or indeed Tudjman and Susak on the Croat side, he was just a selfish power-hungry opportunist who realised that nationalism was a way for him to gain lots of power.

Also, apparently there's a slight issue of subtitling on the BBC documentary. One example: I can't remember where, but there's a point where one of Milosevic's supporters refers to what is literally translated as a "national platform". The BBC chose to translate this as "nationalist" when in the context given it probably actually meant "nationwide".

[–]Suada1976 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

As a native speaker, I can confirm that at times the translation is questionable (e.g. Mesic's speech to the Croatian Sabor). However, the information contained in the documentary is pretty accurate. It's overall pretty impressive, especially for its time.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I watched this one in particular because it was mostly interviews form the people who were there and involved, and a minimum of chronology just to get an idea of what happened when.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't remember that particular instance so if it happened it didn't make that big of an impression on me.

[–]autowikibotLibrary of Alexandria 2.0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Peter Handke:


Peter Handke (German: [ˈhantkə]; born 6 December 1942) is an Austrian novelist, playwright and political activist. His body of work has been awarded numerous literary prizes. His writings about the Yugoslav Wars and subsequent NATO bombing of Yugoslavia with criticism of the Western position and his speech at the funeral of Slobodan Milošević have caused controversy.

Image i


Relevant: The Left-Handed Woman | Heinrich Heine Prize | Repetition (novel) | The Goalie's Anxiety at the Penalty Kick

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[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hearing about Srebrenica and the Rwandan Genocide on the news as a kid is what made me into something of a fanatical liberal interventionist and BS like this make my blood boil. SHAME on Noam for associating with this asshole.

[–]phoenixbasileus 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The rhetoric of never again means nothing if we do not act

[–]TaylorS1986motherfucking tapir cavalry 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly!

[–]LemuelG 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

SHAME on Noam for associating with this asshole.

These guys are fucken peas in a pod man... if anything Chomsky's even worse in the mendacity of his lying. Are you in the right sub?

[–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is interesting. It's kind of odd that the same event gets denied by rightwingers (the Bosnian were muslims and thus had it coming) and leftwingers (it's a western smear against a functional socialist country!)

[–]kapri123 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

And the biggest shit is that we (people of Serbia) are lead by fanatic who once used to state killing Muslims during Bosnian and later Kosovo war, and that he is going to Srebrenica on commemoration and, quoting "I'll try my hardest to go there, and tell people we had nothing to do with it, and bring real war crimes perpetrators to justice"

[–]124876720Harry Flashman did nothing wrong 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Edward Herman, as you may know, is most well known for co-authoring Manufacturing Consent with Noam Chomsky.

Hardly a glowing recommendation given Chomsky's difficult relationship with the facts, especially where Democratic Kampuchea was concerned.

[–]Suada1976 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Chomsky

Chomsky has himself dabbled in Srebrenica revisionism, though admittedly not to the same extent as Herman. He is also on record endorsing Living Marxism's wholy discredited claims that the Trnopolje Concentration camp was fake, or at least made out to be worse than it actually was by the media.

[–]JFVarletThe Phantom Time Hypothesis never happened. Wait, what.....[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Herman at least, and I think Chomsky too, both still hold to LM's claim that Fikret Alic was emaciated because he was suffering from tuberculosis; LM never provided any evidence of such a claim. It's true that Alic was somewhat unrepresentative and atypical - but that was because he'd been particularly badly beaten by guards and malnourished, not any endogenous reason.

[–]Suada1976 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Chomsky has never explicitly said that Fikret Alic was emaciated because he had tuberculosis; but he did endore Living Marxism's article, claiming that it's claims were 'probably correct':

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/BOSNIA_PHOTO/bosnia.html

There are a lot of problems with this article, and I'll only deal with a few of them.

  1. Diechmann's 'gardner's knowledge' relating to the fence is easy to address. The facilities used as camps in BiH were for the most part not purpose-built detention camps. Trnopolje for instance was a school and a community centre. More importantly, at the LM vs ITY libel trial, LM conceeded that the material specifics of a particular barbed-wire fense had nothing to do with the question of whether or not Alic and others were imprisoned at a camp.

  2. Diechmann's second source is random interviews from local Serbs, including an alleged guard at Trnopolje in 1996. Aside from the fact that these interviews were conducted several years after the events and that they are far from the most reliable witnesses, even the way Diechmann used their testimony raised an issue.

    For instance, Pero Curguz of the Serbian Red Cross (which was ran by Radovan Karadzic's wife and was deeply implicated in ethnic cleansing in the region) was barred from the facility. He is cited as saying 'no fence has been erected' during the operation of the camp. Yet the actual interview transcript says 'during the operation of the camp no fence was built. The short fence already existed,as did the barbed wire fence’. So this quote is used misleadingly by Diechmann.

  3. Diechmann’s article casts doubt on Alic’s status as a detainee. The description of Trnopolje as a ‘refugee centre’ deminishes any sense of malevolent purpose. Yet there is overwhelming evidence that this is not the case, including the admission of Momir Stakic (Karadzic defence witness, convicted war criminal) to the contrary. Trnopolje was an integral part of the ethnic cleansing campaign in north-western Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is where most of the non-Serb population passed through before their deportation to non-Serb controlled areas. The vast majority of its inmates were rounded up in the summer of 1992 by the SDS authorities in Prijedor and did not come of their own free will. One witness at the ICTY (and LM Trial) Dr. Merdzanic confirmed that they had been taken against their will and were not free to leave the camp. The still photos he gave of the beatings to ITN are shocking (and convienantly never mentioned in the LM article.

    Some people ‘voluntarily’ went to the camp, as a result of the intense ethnic cleansing campaign ongoing in north-western Bosnia at the time. This campaign deliberately produced an atmosphere of such a coercive nature that some people went to the camp, hoping to be deported from the region to non-Serb controlled territory. These people were free to leave the camp, but only if they agreed to be deported out of the area and to sign away their property. It is vital that this wider context be borne in mind when discussing the camp system. The fact that there ‘voluntary’ arrivals came as a result of the violence produced by ethnic cleansing ongoing in the surrounding region, or that such transport was consistent with the goals of ethnic cleansing was mentioned by ITN, but not by LM or Chomsky.

    While the pattern of abuse in Trnopolje was less severe than in Omarska and other Prijedor camps, it was still a place in which widespread killings, beatings and torture occurred. It was also marked by a particularly high instance of rape, as it is where most of the women and children were detained prior to their expulsion from Serb-controlled territory.

You may be surprised that I actually agree that Alic was unrepresentative of the prisoners who passed through Trnopolje. He was certainly representative however of those who passed through the more vicious elements of the Prijedor system. It's highly indicitave that through this whole controversy, Chomsky and LM have studiously avoided mentioning Omarska or Manjaca.

[–]Colonel_BlimpWilliam III was a juicy orange 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The popularity of this theory amongst people who have written for Counterpunch magazine has given me a special indicator for people to not pay attention to. It's good to see a writeup on this finally, well done OP.

[–]MGEmancipation 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Herman/Chomsky are morbid symptoms of our time. I have been to the morgue in Tuzla ... recorded forensic anthropologists doing their grisly work of analysing piles of bones. A good essay here: http://www.politico.eu/article/srebrenica-20-years-later/