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If relegations will be removed then i will propably be done with watching LCS (self.leagueoflegends)

Lekassor が 投稿

After watching the Montecristo video where he says that its almost certain that franchising will go through at least in NA, im terrified about the future of LCS, not about its survival or growth or whatever but about the most important thing: the experience that i will personally have as a viewer

Idk about you but throughout the seasons the relegation stories were just as engaging to me as the top half of the league and sometimes even more engaging. The historic brand of CLG being a single game away from getting relegated back in s4, C9 being on the verge of destruction and suddenly saved by the Hai comeback, former EU powerhouse of SK being outclassed by the new blood, OG fall from grace after they reached Worlds semis, G2 trying again again to enter LCS and then finally making it, EF little run in the most recent relegation tournament etc etc.

Great storylines all of those, produced by the cutthroat competition that the relegation system provides.

I dont want to watch a league where the only thing that matters is the top 1-4 teams. Both for the narrative aspect and the aspect of grading value (i most certainly dont want the last 3-4 weeks to be filled with meaningless matches, especially when currently the last weeks are usually the most exciting)

Its the owners right to try and protect their investment by wanting franchising but its also my right as a viewer to value my engagement and fair competition more than anything.

And if that means that no more billionaires will enter the scene or that the VCs will pull out (especially since all the VCs have proven to have atrocious infrastructure so far), then so be it. I dont care about "growth" if it hurts my viewer experience. I dont need an ESPN-esque professionalism circlejerking. I enjoyed s3 LCS as much as i enjoyed s6 LCS. As long as LoL is massively profitable and the viewership is there, LCS will continue to be sustainable. Other teams will fill the shoes of the existing teams in case they leave the scene. The worst thing that can happen is the LCS to be filled with player-created teams. I prefer that 100x over no relegation.

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[–]gorg235 459ポイント460ポイント  (121子コメント)

I feel like the idea of not being relegated is a very American way of viewing sports. You'd never see relegation in MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, but it's completely normal to see relegation in soccer.

I will say the owners of the LCS have a valid point about sponsorship in regards to relegation and what not because it's a much different world where each team doesn't have it's own stadium and millions of fans to buy food/drinks during matches or merchandise. And yes, I know they all sell t-shirts, but even the smallest garage band can sell t-shirts. That's not exactly a huge profit margin anyway. So yes, it does make it difficult to keep sponsors if your team is relegated.

The point is, while I can see why the owners would want franchising, relegation is completely acceptable and makes for a more competitive scene.

[–]bornthisgood 129ポイント130ポイント  (17子コメント)

There's also the difference between sports and e-sports in the whole "home team" aspect. Professional sports teams have the benefit of having their loyal, local fans always wanting to watch their games regardless of how shitty they are, whereas there is no city or place associated with e-sports teams, so no one has any reason to watch the lower-tier games if they're bad and there's no relegation system.

[–]imbued94 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about this comprimise. Both relegation and franchising? There are the initial 10 teams in lcs and 6 or whatever number of teams in challenger series.

Then give challenger series more support andnmake it an actual league that can be profitable. This will make people fight will tooth and nails to stay in lcs but arent completely fuck where they to be relegated.

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    [–]Denworath 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not just football has relegations. Most european countries' sports have relegations, water polo, handball, etc. Heck, even basketball isnt franchised where i came from.

    [–]Nabooish 71ポイント72ポイント  (57子コメント)

    The point is, while I can see why the owners would want franchising, relegation is completely acceptable and makes for a more competitive scene.

    But does it though... I take issue with this point where's your evidence to back this up since the inception of the premier league back in 1992 you do realize that I can count on almost one hand the amount of teams that have won from then to now.

    http://www.totalsportek.com/list/english-premier-league-winners-since-1992/

    Here is a list if you even bother to look

    The same can be said of La Liga the region is wholly dominated by Real Madrid and Barcelona. Get this for a statistic

    Real Madrid have the won the league title since it's inception a whooping 32 times coming runners up 23 times

    Barcelona who came in second have won a whopping 24 times and have come runners up 24 times

    With Atletico Madrid coming in third with a respectable 10 wins and 8 times coming runners up

    Once again let's take a look at Serie A since 1929 the inception of the league Juventus have won a whooping 32 times with Inter Milan and AC Milan joint second with 18

    Third spot is Genoa on 9 man

    Now let's look at the NFL

    Since it's inception Pittsburgh Steelers have appeared 8 times at the superbowl with 6 wins and 2 losses

    Their rivals the Dallas cowboys have appeared 8 times with 5 wins and 3 losses

    The New england patriots have appeared 8 times with 4 wins and 4 losses.

    the NFL has produced almost 18 winners of the superbowl since 1966 with 28 out of 32 teams having attended the superbowl at least once in their history.

    Go and look up the records yourself and I think you'll be surprised how dominate and uncompetitive the european leagues actually are.

    the list goes on and on but at a glance if anything the franchised leagues of America are actually encouraging competition between the regions.

    Obviously their systems are very different and diverse outside the exception of being franchised but to say the relegation systems cultivates more competitiveness or at least more than a franchised league is a blatant fabrication at worst and misguided at best.

    [–]Jmeisch10 51ポイント52ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Yeah man in U.S. Sports there is also a salary cap and draft process. Relegation isn't what makes European sports less competitive, it's because the rich teams can ball out of control buying the best players, coaches, etc, where the smaller teams can't. Even if the LCS franchises unless they start to limit and regulate the amount of money teams can spend on signings and the free agency process they won't create a more equal and competitive environment.

    [–]Hanifsefu 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    One thing franchising does is that while you secure the future of your team and your players you allow them far more room to cultivate talent in the semi-pro teams with the intention to sign them years down the road once they have the experience necessary. You can't really plan for that when you aren't even sure you'll have a team next year.

    [–]Teeklin 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

    A rising tide raises all ships. Franchising would bring in an absolute ton of money to all of the teams. There's no way that they don't start attracting better talent on every single team bar none when all the teams have a ton more money. There's no lack of talent out there, just a lack of resources to find and cultivate it.

    [–]Jmeisch10 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    True, but without a cap the top teams will still be able to out earn more and out spend the smaller franchises. I am not arguing against franchises, I am just pointing out the faulty logic in Nabooish's argument.

    I am more curious to see how they actually go about implementing franchises. There are so many questions that immediately rise up.

    • Will they roll out to all regions?
    • What will the regulations look like?
    • Will there be a draft?
    • Will there be an official player union(president scara?)
    • Salary cap?
    • Will franchises be local?

    Franchises are going to be the next big leap for league in terms of status and money but its hard to say whether they will be good or bad until we see how they are implemented and what all will come along with enfranchisement.

    [–]Nickorama0228 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They also can't do any of that stuff without franchising, but the franchising has to come first.

    [–]sc2mashimaro 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Relegation is part of that equation when it comest to money though, because a big thing that teams are competing for is exposure - and a team that gets relegated gets less exposure, their money goes away, which means that teams that are perceived to be near the bottom will have trouble attracting money and players.

    [–]ItzEnoz 11ポイント12ポイント  (16子コメント)

    You make good points but almost all your points about competitiveness in NFL can be attributed to how the Draft works in NA sports. Also, you cannot trade players for money in NA sports while I believe you can in Euro soccer. Richer teams take any talent poorer teams develop or find by offering them enough money they cannot refuse I would assume (not sure if this actually happens but it would make sense)

    [–]KMKEEPS 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

    American Football is a little different. If your team does the worst in the league you get 1st draft pick, which gives weaker teams a good chance to rebound and pick up new talent also the NFL caps team salaries for their combined roster at 152.8m dollars a year to prevent stacking. There definitely isn't enough talent to prevent this and nothing really stops the top teams from stacking teams.

    [–]kazkaI 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

    So what your saying is league needs to crate a draft XD

    [–]Meowww13 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I can't wait to trust the process.

    [–]russlinjimis 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    dude if they made a draft itd be fucking amazing

    [–]KMKEEPS 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm saying there's not a chance in hell League has enough talent in NA to make such a thing happen.

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          [–]Dolaos 1154ポイント1155ポイント  (239子コメント)

          Its the owners right to try and protect their investment by wanting franchising but its also my right as a viewer to value my engagement and fair competition more than anything.

          So much this, i dont understand why the hell there are people who tell us to be obedient because franchising is good for owners. Owners and viewers have contradicting interests VERY often. The fact that we are both part of the scene means jackshit

          [–]shindaru 162ポイント163ポイント  (106子コメント)

          Worst part is it could be pushed on the EU region as well.

          [–]mahades 358ポイント359ポイント  (94子コメント)

          But we like relegation in EU

          [–]shurimalonelybird 68ポイント69ポイント  (59子コメント)

          I wonder how many EU LCS teams owners/orgs/managers are actually from Europe and can fully understand this

          [–]AE_Kaylie 66ポイント67ポイント  (56子コメント)

          Probably all. Sure the viewers want Relegations but if you are a business owner youd prefer Franchising. You dont need to study Business to understand that.

          Everyone who signed the letter is fully aware that they are potentionally shitting on the fans opinions but for them its more worth to keep a permanent LCS Spot. In the end Riot pays them, not the viewer.

          [–]Ngjeoooo 14ポイント15ポイント  (15子コメント)

          Riot pays them a stipend. Most of their money comes from sponsorships and sponsors want viewership to give big money. Not even mention the potential of including the teams to broadcasting rights in the future (which is one of the promises Riot has made to them) or the potential collapse of LCS due to low viewership after franchising which will destroy their investment

          [–]IveBeenNautiNo really. I have. 65ポイント66ポイント  (13子コメント)

          You honestly think that if Riot went to franchising they would lose a significant amount of viewership? You're not even thinking about the money that teams will dump in to the scene with that stability. The reality is we will probably see massive growth once franchising occurs, but there is going to be a vocal minority that REALLY doesn't like it.

          Reddit sometimes forgets how small of a piece of the pie they really are.

          [–]Bazaltic 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Amen.

          [–]anony7000 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

          I think if they do it now they would lose some of money opposed to if they do it in a year or two. Not all the LCS org's are yet worth franchising for. Of course even if they do that those org's might sell, but it's be better for them to wait out till bigger org's would actually be in the game. Imagine if we replace two of smallest org's in EU LCS with Barcelona and Real Madrid for example. That's when I'd say it would be time to pull the trigger. Right now, I'd say let's give it a bit more time.

          [–]navxd 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          beautiful

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              [–]Eirixoto 11ポイント12ポイント  (14子コメント)

              But the viewers kinda pay Riot, right? (Adds and stuff) So if the viewers literally only watch 2-3 games, the ones between the top 4 teams? Won't everything just go to hell for Riot and the owners then, as Riot makes less money and no one gives a shit about 60% of the teams.

              (I didn't study Business, as you maybe realize.) Don't hate please

              [–]VelKoz_Hentai 16ポイント17ポイント  (10子コメント)

              yes, but I'm going to assume (and Riot as well) that like 99% of viewers will probably still watch LCS even if relegations were removed. It is not like there is an alternative. Also, assuming that every team gets like a billionaire investor with the inclusion of franchising, even if shit got crazy and they lost 50% of their viewers, they'd rather have these billionaires invested long term and providing funding and stability rather than depend on unpredictable fluctuations in viewership.

              [–]navxd 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              realisitically the teams would make more money off of the new sponsors that should come into the scene if it is franchised and riot would take a portion of that and it would exceed the potential loss you are talking about

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                      [–]Amasero 16ポイント17ポイント  (7子コメント)

                      Meh...EU has always been about relegation. NA has always been about franchising.

                      Look at Soccer. Both co-exist, and both do well in their country.

                      [–]rafitoxD 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      The only problem about franchising for me it's you can only form a new team if they let you. When you look at football in pretty much every other country except USA, you can found a team and make your way to the top without having to ask for it.

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                          [–]paladinsane(EUW) 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

                          I agree that a sport is made or broken by its viewership and whether they're satisfied by it, hence Riot's desire to kill the laneswap meta and force standard lanes.

                          I think the problem is at the moment, the viewers get a good deal (lots of free entertainment, exciting games and an exciting League), Riot get a good deal (the lion's share of proceeds from advertising, a huge amount of publicity for their game through LCS) but owners don't get a good deal, and often end up putting in more than they'll get out. Riot's held an iron grip on what teams are allowed to do with their League of Legends brand, and it's got to the point where unless you can guarantee success, then the investment stops becoming worth it.

                          That's not to say I'm in favour of franchising (which will kill the spirit of competition entirely), but I think it needs to be thought about more how LCS can become a worthwhile investment for teams.

                          [–]lolix007 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          then give teams % of stream income but still keep relegations. That would make teams much more competitive since getting relagated will mean losing a HUGE amount of money. That way , all games are important

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                            [–]showwill 73ポイント74ポイント  (27子コメント)

                            I just wanted to give the other side to the current circle jerk that reddit has on franchising.

                            First of all, franchising does not mean that new teams cannot enter into the lcs scene anymore. Theres always room for expansion if the demand is there. But first, you need a sustainable scene for the orgs and for the sponsors. Currently, in the relegation system, most orgs if not all are losing money. This is bad for the scene because sponsors are less likely to invest in lower tier teams for fear of relegation, while only investing in large orgs like TSM or C9 who have close to zero chance of getting relegated. I mean, why invest in the bottom teams when they are likely to get relegated and probably just disappear from the scene. This creates a gap because only the large orgs or the orgs with already a high fan base like TSM would have the money for talent or good players would want to only play on those teams because on other teams, they have a chance to get relegated. In the current system, the top teams basically stay at the top while the bottom teams either get relegated or just stay irrelevant in hopes of just staying alive.

                            Now, in a franchising system, the teams are guaranteed a spot and are safe from relegation. No, this does not decrease competition at all because from a player perspective, you still want to play your best to increase your player value so teams would want to pay more to keep or hire you. And from a org perspective, the teams would still want to strive to be the best, because if you are always at the bottom, you wont have much fan support, which in turn means less sponsors, which means less money. Now in a franchise, the bottom teams wont have to be afraid of being relegated and can actually try to produce talent or try out new rosters or players from challenger scene, whereas in a relegation system, the bottom teams would be afraid of picking up or trying new players and just sticking to players they know would at the minimum be enough to keep them alive. With a franchise, the bottom teams would still be able to get some sponsors which means money and might even be able to get some decent players to make their way up because they know they wont be relegated on that team. The challenger scene could be used as scouting grounds too or for growing talent just like in the NBA or MLB, whereas right now, it is basically useless and used as farming money tools for the current top orgs.

                            We complain when the same owners stay in power because new investors are too scared to go all in because of the risk? This is basically the relegation system right now. Relegation is great if you're ok with the same two or three teams in the lcs being perennial contenders, and the bottom of the standings consistently being a revolving door of shitty challenger teams and shady organizations. Relegation honestly doesn't do nearly as much to maintain competition as everyone on reddit seems to think it does. Basically only 2-3 teams rotating around the top.

                            Relegations in european football or soccer only works because they have different leagues and even if they get relegated, they still have sponsors and money to keep them afloat and well off, whereas in lcs, if you get relegated, youre basically done. Like another guy said in another thread, "relegation has done virtually nothing to improve parity in the top european football leagues. pretty much every major football league in europe is perennially dominated by the same one or two teams who have been around the longest and have the most money and influence. manchester united has won 13 out of 24 premier league titles. bayern munich has won 26 bundesliga titles since 1968. 2014 was the first year since 1996 that someone other than real madrid or barcelona won la liga. for reference, 9 different teams have won the last 10 super bowls in the nfl. 7 different teams have won the last 10 stanley cups in the nhl. 7 different teams have won the past 10 world series in the mlb, and the last 10 nba championships were won by 7 different teams. "

                            Basically, in a franchise, there would be more sponsors, which means more money pouring in for the league and the orgs, which means more money for the players, and would be able to be more competitive and be a sustainable league.Now I dont know if a franchise system would be able to solve all the problems with the current LCS and the challenger scene but it is at least more sustainable to the current one. In a franchise system, maybe they could implement a salary cap, so that the top orgs wont be able to hoard all the talent and the other teams could also spend on good players, but in the end, they still would need to have money to do so, and right now, they don't because of relegations.

                            [–]C1oudyC1oud 20ポイント21ポイント  (10子コメント)

                            "I mean, why invest in the bottom teams when they are likely to get relegated and probably just disappear from the scene." G2, Splyce and Origen all came from Challenger Scene and are at least competing at an LCS level.

                            "because if you are always at the bottom, you wont have much fan support, which in turn means less sponsors, which means less money." Immediately followed by "With a franchise, the bottom teams would still be able to get some sponsors which means money and might even be able to get some decent players to make their way up because they know they wont be relegated on that team." So in a franchise bottom teams will still try to compete because if they stay at the bottom they won't get sponsorship money however they can still compete because even at the bottom they get sponsorship money?

                            "Relegation is great if you're ok with the same two or three teams in the lcs being perennial contenders, and the bottom of the standings consistently being a revolving door of shitty challenger teams and shady organizations." Except for earlier mentioned teams, G2 winning EU LCS, Fnatic going from unbeaten split to middle of the pack team etc

                            "Relegations in european football or soccer only works because they have different leagues and even if they get relegated, they still have sponsors and money to keep them afloat and well off, whereas in lcs, if you get relegated, youre basically done." So surely it makes more sense to invest in the challenger scene, not block teams from entering the LCS.

                            I'm not gonna pretend I can solve these problems or have all the facts but something I've not seen anyone mentioning is investment into the challenger scene.

                            What if it was turned into an LCS B-league with say 16 teams?

                            Like I said I don't know details of how Riot could promote interest and investment in a second league but starting by actually caring about all the shit that goes on there would probably be a good start, start monitoring it like the do LCS with the same amount of rules and scrutiny.

                            Edit: formatting

                            [–]HowDo_I_TurnThisOn 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

                            Origen all came from Challenger Scene

                            Made of fucking top tier players from previous LCS splits

                            [–]gotoucanario 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Also Splyce and G2, also reddit can't seem to decide wether they are top tier lcs players or washed up garbage in the first place.

                            [–]ibnTarikh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Yeah so many good players can just get into a newly formed org and try to qualify or get picked up by a new org after it qualifies. These people have the illusion that it constantly saturates the league with new blood, thus keeping it more competitive. To even prove that orgs that get relegated are worse than new ones coming would require running a ton of statistical models. Also where's the logic in saying that bringing in the best from an inferior league and replacing the worst in a superior league keeps things more competitive. Why don't we take the best na team and then send them to Korea and relegate the weakest Korean team down. I guess Korea just became more competitive! These folks are mad shortsighted, citing the same 4 teams who did well over and over but neglecting all teams that got relegated and failed and all the orgs that disappeared and rosters abandoned and contracts unfulfilled.

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                              [–]showwill 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              yes im saying right now in the current system, bottom teams are getting very little, if any sponsorship money because of fear of relegations. In a franchise, sponsors would more likely invest in the teams because there is no relegation. Bottom teams would be able to get more as compared to the relegation system. And they would still try to compete because if you keep winning, there would be more fans and more sponsors and more money.

                              [–]Corregidor 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              Im just gonna reply to your point on bottom teams getting sponsorships.

                              What sensible sponsor will invest not only in a team that is already losing money but also about to get kicked out of the league. Thats bad business, and as a bottom tier team its hard to try and convince sponsors to sponsor a team given those two conditions. With franchising you get rid of one of those conditions and have much more leverage on negotiations. And that team may be able to get a small company to sponsor them. Sure it might not be coca cola or red bull or any big company, but it is still something.

                              With that small amount of income you can start to hire more infrastructure or better players. Win a bit more by putting in alot of effort. Build your brand so that you can get more and better sponsors. Hardly anyone is in the lcs "just to win", eu/na/kr all their teams are about making money, and making more money. If you think otherwise you are ignorant. Sure it may be a motivation, but the major reason is to make money.

                              Another thing that may need to be developed is a more thorough challenger scene, with the scouting grounds becoming a thing riot is already taking steps in that regard. A player union may also be a thing that needs to be considered so that actual good talent can be recognized. Maybe not a union but at least something that can get players recognized by teams, because as it stands the only way to find new talent is by looking at the challenger leader boards and throwing a dart at it.

                              So anyway those are my two cents

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                                [–]rh1n0man 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                Theres always room for expansion if the demand is there.

                                The demand will never ever be there. No, I'm no saying League is going to lose popularity. But there is simply no reason that an extra team would bring extra interest to league at this point where as it would definitely cost Riot money and compete for sponsors with existent teams. Of course the latter is the real reason it will not happen if Riot is a pushover. This isn't like athletic sports, there is no untapped local market that is reached with a new team.

                                But first, you need a sustainable scene for the orgs and for the sponsors.

                                It is currently unstable because of rumors about franchising leading to massively unpredictable values for LCS spots and a drive of Academy and VC super teams recklessly burning through cash to get in before the ladder is pulled up. It isn't as if all the teams were going belly-up in season 3. No sympathy for capitalists creating their own problems to force others to fix it for them.

                                This is bad for the scene because sponsors are less likely to invest in lower tier teams for fear of relegation

                                No. They are less likely to invest in lower tier teams because they have no fan base in the first place and will not for years. This, again, is a problem of centralized teams leading to little reason to not prefer the oldest/best, outside of popular players, who's position on the team can often be even more unstable than relegation. Riot not allowing teams to shill for their sponsors to crowds exacerbates this. As evidence for this, quick: what is Immortals principle sponsor? Most people couldn't answer this although they are certainly not at risk of being relegated.

                                No, this does not decrease competition at all because from a player perspective, you still want to play your best to increase your player value so teams would want to pay more to keep or hire you

                                Damn. Why even have playoffs in the first place if every player is going to play their heart out in every single game to increase their imaginary value in a oligopoly market? Flawless logic there.

                                And from a org perspective, the teams would still want to strive to be the best, because if you are always at the bottom, you wont have much fan support, which in turn means less sponsors, which means less money.

                                Did someone say streamer team? I think I heard someone say streamer team.

                                and can actually try to produce talent or try out new rosters or players from challenger scene, whereas in a relegation system, the bottom teams would be afraid of picking up or trying new players and just sticking to players they know would at the minimum be enough to keep them alive.

                                Bottom teams are currently trying out new players, especially when they are having an particularly bad season. Not seeing the benefit here.

                                We complain when the same owners stay in power because new investors are too scared to go all in because of the risk?

                                Who is saying this? Are you seeing a total lack of new owners for Premier League teams?

                                Relegations in european football or soccer only works because they have different leagues and even if they get relegated, they still have sponsors and money to keep them afloat and well off, whereas in lcs, if you get relegated, youre basically done.

                                Ahh. So the real problem is that Riot doesn't promote the challenger series leading to a sharp difference between the leagues in viewership. Surely, if we completely cut off the link between the two leagues it will all get better.

                                relegation has done virtually nothing to improve parity in the top european football leagues. pretty much every major football league in europe is perennially dominated by the same one or two teams who have been around the longest and have the most money and influence.

                                1. Leicester
                                2. Relegation is not about equalizing the top. It is about making the bottom watchable. Reaching parity requires massive revenue redistribution and formalized draft systems with the worst teams getting the first picks. Only the former has a small chance of ever happening regardless of the existence of relegation.

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                                  [–]dangerous_idiot 49ポイント50ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                  every split there's some exciting new team with an interesting storyline who i'd love to cheer for.. and then they get relegated after one split. who's going to want to support/watch and most importantly play for a team that isn't C9/CLG/TSM if they're most likely going to be around for about 20 matches? i understand a lot of the reasons people are opposed to franchising, but that doesn't mean that everyone who's for it is just supporting the poor little owners trying to protect their investments.

                                  [–]rumballtron 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                  this. i liked watching echofox in their first split and i was happy they didn't get relegated because i know they need improvement, but getting relegated kind of eliminates that possibility. you need at least a few splits to figure out who your team is and then get better.

                                  [–]mattiejj 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  this. i liked watching echofox in their first split and i was happy they didn't get relegated because i know they need improvement

                                  And this is exactly the reason why relegations should still be there. It was exciting to see EF rise from their shitty early season and fight against relegation. Nobody would've cared if they were playing for shits and giggles.

                                  [–]rumballtron 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  yeah for short term entertainment definitely better. long term growth needs to be there for teams too if thats what the league wants for itself. for teams that do get relegated, it sucks.
                                  if echo replaces a player to take the next step and it turns out to be a wrong move, instead of having a chance to correct that and change direction they could just be gone.

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                                    [–]CoachDT 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    But they didn't get relegated.

                                    I like interesting stories too about teams coming from relegations. G2, Roccat, OG, Splyce, h2k.

                                    NA is the one thats pretty stagnant but even still I liked C9 coming out of nowhere. I enjoyed it when Winterfox came and so on.

                                    Instead we can just have a league where the only interesting bit is the top 4 or so teams. Thats cool too.

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                                      [–]OnyxMelon 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                      every split there's some exciting new team with an interesting storyline who i'd love to cheer for.. and then they get relegated after one split.

                                      Like H2K, UoL, G2 and Splyce...

                                      None of the top 4 EU teams last split were in LCS in season 4 and they weren't just new orgs that bought existing teams, they all qualified from challenger.

                                      [–]insanePowerMeGodg1ven 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      OG was a crazy story. Splyce was a cinderella story. G2 was a forsaken story.

                                      We like those stories. If it wasn't for relegation we would still have shitty organizations like MYM aka moveyourmothers.

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                                          [–]Jwalla83 41ポイント42ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                          I think it's funny that you see some people, especially on Twitter, saying, "omg Reddit doesn't understand that owners want to protect their investment lul so dumb"

                                          No, we get that - and we disagree with this particular "investment protection". You know what else would "protect your investment"? Charging people a monthly fee to play/watch and dividing the profits among teams -- but that's a terrible idea and we'd fight it too.

                                          "Protecting an investment" is not some catch-all excuse to let you do whatever you want. Relegations keep the game competitive an interesting.

                                          [–]CaptainLepidusback on the lgd bandwagon 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                          The scene exists because of fans. Owners make a living off of our support of the scene. Riot makes profits off of LCS because fans enjoy the scene and it keeps them playing League. In the end, Riot's first priority is us. None of the owner's lifestyles could exist without our viewership, and now they're acting like spoiled children. Regi and Jack have made millions off the scene - who are they to complain?

                                          The real problem is the ridiculous overvaluation of LCS spots which leads to unreasonable expectation of profitability from owners - P1 wrote about this the other day.

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                                            [–]bwilliams2 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            I don't know man. OP claimed only the top teams will matter. For the most part, that's already true. With Franchising all 10 teams will matter and it starts to look a lot more like tSports. I understand a lot of his argument, but as fans this change barely effects us whereas owners will see a huge benefit. More investors and less fear of having your brand disappear before you got enough exposure means more pay, more sponsors, and a healthier league. With this change they can focus more light on the top of the Challenger scene and make that area more exposed and functioning more like the LCS is now.

                                            I think there's potential in this change. I agree that relegation is likely better for competitive integrity, especially since it's how fresh blood enters the lcs. It's debatable and I don't think it's nearly as simple as people want to make it sound.

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                                              [–]LichcrowLikkrit, the jesus we deserve 175ポイント176ポイント  (78子コメント)

                                              In EU football leagues you do have relegations and it's a pretty good system.

                                              If a team gets the last spot you get insta relegation, the 2nd to last and the 3rd to last will fight for their spot in their current league.

                                              Sure, teams with better budgets and acadamies will be better, but that's also because they show up better. When you remove relegations you remove the possibility of having a Leicester, who went from a 2nd division team, to taking the premier league in the same season.

                                              [–]Duzcek 83ポイント84ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                              The football leagues and LCS relegation systems have huge differences. Just to name a few, the 3 teams in football is a much smaller percentage of the 20 or so teams in the league, it happens only once a year compared to the two we currently have in league, and teams that fall out of the top league in football are given a safety net deposit to ease them into the lower league. One point that's also worth mentioning is that football teams will always have local fans, someone living in Sunderland will always be Sunderland fan and will thus allow the team cashflow from that, League teams don't have city backgrounds so it makes it hard for people to be diehard fans and thus buy any of their merchandise.

                                              [–]Leblanku 40ポイント41ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                              Well having relegations once a year in LoL would work as well. The problem I have with franchising is to decide which teams/orgs should belong to the big dicks club. Why Dignitas and not NRG? Why isnt PGS allowed to be part, but OG is. These are examples, but I think its highly unfair for upcoming orgs to not be part of the major league, just because the current owners behave entitled.

                                              Not even talking about the fact, that watching bottom 5 teams the last few weeks will be completely worthless.

                                              [–]neenerpants 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                              While I agree with some of your points, I still don't think franchising is the answer. Almost all of your issues are with the way Riot handles relegation, rather than with the concept of it.

                                              the 3 teams in football is a much smaller percentage of the 20 or so teams in the league

                                              There are plenty of smaller leagues in Europe. Austria and Switzerland have 10 teams, Scotland and Ukraine have 12, etc. They just don't relegate as many teams, often only the bottom team. Why Riot chooses to relegate up to 6 teams a year, out of a league of 10, is beyond me. I can't think of a single sports league with such a high amount of relegation spots. They could fix most of this just by tweaking that number, instead of scrapping relegation entirely.

                                              [–]Duzcek 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              I agree, I have nothing against relegations and I think both relegations and franchising can work. But I do know that the current system is incredibly flawed and needs reevaluation. Had they chosen to increase infrastructure and exposure in the Challenger series while also fixing the relegation tournament to 1 team a split or 2 teams a year would have been just as fine with me.

                                              [–]Piriprimey 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Honestly, this should be higher. The original reason for having 3 relegation spots out of 8 (now 10) teams was that the league itself was barely established, and by Riot's thinking (and of course, quite logically) it could have been possible that there are as many as 3 challenger teams that are capable of beating the bottom teams of LCS.

                                              Now that we have long-standing, famous organisations even in the 8th or 9th spots of a league, and all the top players already playing in the LCS, there is not a big incentive to keep all 3 relegation spots.

                                              Despite what I wrote, I still want to keep the last spot open for relegations (the 10th), just because I don't want the LCS to be a fully money-driven, cash-grabbing, capitalist entity, and as you can see from my flair, I remember how some teams got in the LCS (as just an aspiring group of friends who were preetty good at LoL).

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                                                [–]LichcrowLikkrit, the jesus we deserve 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                You can't really deny that due to the streaming medium of the LCS, you get a more globalized and diverse fan distribution. You dont really associate yourself to the city of the team, but to the team itself.

                                                Your first argument however is not very correct since you can't really compare the evolution of 120 years of a sport to a 6 years esport. Some of these processes take time, franchising is definitely better than what we have right now, but it's not be the best solution.

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                                                  [–]ShiroQ 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                  but there is a problem with football relegations compared to LCS. in football if a team gets relegated it doesnt fucking disband. they have things like TV deal money coming in , league winnings. Sponsorships etc.

                                                  League of legends has none of this beacuse the teams disband ASAP. Sponsors are very stingy by choosing who to sponsor because shit teams disbanded. there is no infastructure to support relegations. There is no money in the lower league whiel in real life footballs there is money in every proffessional league even if its lower but there still is. enough to support the teams etc. While in league of legends the costs for lower league outweigh the money they receive which equals into disbanding teams. There is no stability in lower tiers of league of legends its LCS or die

                                                  [–]LichcrowLikkrit, the jesus we deserve 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  That's more of an issue of teams not getting enough from the Challenger series. You need to have enough income so teams can grow their team into becoming eventually LCS tier.

                                                  Teams don't generate enough revenue in CS to be able to break even. This is mostly a conceptual fault from Riot in regards to sponsorships. Teams can't show their sponsors anywhere but their shirts and that is currently KILLING teams. Once Riot realizes this and solves this issue, then you will start seeing a much more competitive environment in the LCS and CS.

                                                  [–]baraboosh 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  also the fact that CS gets like 5k viewers. No one wants to watch that level of play

                                                  [–]thejpenn 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                  EU football teams make REALLY good money. LCS teams lose unless they win the LCS. P1 lost 500,000 dollars. A team should be profitable even in last place. Riots payment system is very poor. Its really a SUPER high risk, medium-high reward system. They need to make the risk match the reward. Once riot starts profiting off of the LCS as far as advertisement they will probably pay more. Until then it is hard to be a LCS owner.

                                                  [–]LichcrowLikkrit, the jesus we deserve 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                  The problem is that teams aren't allowed to have sponsors show in anywhere but their shirts. This is a huge turn-off to mainly perifereals peripherals companys who will not get a return from their investment in the teams. Once this is changed, teams should start getting more sponsors and therefore more stable environments.

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                                                    [–]HaeCho 16ポイント17ポイント  (42子コメント)

                                                    Can we stop saying football. Most sports outside of NA is not franchised.

                                                    [–]r_gg 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    Lot of the Asian Baseball Leagues, as well as the original BW/sc2 Pro Leagues followed a franchise model actually.

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                                                        [–]DILIPEK 342ポイント343ポイント  (178子コメント)

                                                        As a fan from europe i cant understand how is it possible that teams that are pure shit ( or just last in their region ) are not relegated , dont get me wrong for you NA fans its prolly obvious but i just cant see how is this good for viewers , teams can be shit as fuck and still stay in top league. We can have teams like EF that will go 0-18 and still menage to stay in LCS ? what if there is a good team in Challanger that is obviously better than last LCS team ? they cant get there just because shit-team has better funding ? how can a team "own" a spot , spot should be earned not bought.

                                                        in a perfect world situation would be that challanger series has its own viewership and relegation does not mean "death" to teams relegated. I just can't stand that if this "franchising" thingy would be implemented earlier teams like Origen and other player-created teams wouldnt be able to come because they had no funding to go into LCS.

                                                        [–]Lama_43Gambit forever in my <3 70ポイント71ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                        Well to be fair EF fought hard in the relegation tournament. If you can't win over a 1-17 LCS team you don't really deserve to be in LCS. The thing is that they had the potential to be relegated, which made for some fun and high tension games. NRG got relegated, and that org turned out to be a major shitshow, which is fine by me honestly.

                                                        [–]Aoaelos 60ポイント61ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                        People want to convince us that its a tragedy that a team which didnt even manage to get its own players to practice got relegated.

                                                        No. It was 100% deserved. And if they have this stance with the relegation threat existing i dont even want to imagine what they will do if they get a permanent spot.

                                                        [–]a_very_sad_story 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Which shows that if you are managing properly your team you probably wont even have to face getting relegated since you have a lot more money to invest by default so better players, staff, etc. If you still cant win the relegation tournament then you dont deserve to be there and a better team moves on (this year's NALCS was a bad example because of C9C boosting squad but that's a different problem) but if you're doing your job you are mostly safe.

                                                        The system works, investors should learn a bunch of things before putting their money on a Lol team like you should do a bunch of researches before investing on anything, what's wrong with that.

                                                        [–]DILIPEK 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Im not saying EF deserved to be relegated i actually cheered for them and its good they can stay. my point was that without relegation team like Misfits or Origen last year would have no chance in getting in even tho they were clearly better than bottom LCS teams because of no $$$.

                                                        [–]TripottanusBibleThump KappaRoss 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        Honestly i think the reason franchising works in other sports is that the last team gets to draft the best players so they dont stay the worst forever

                                                        [–]DILIPEK 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        yea but other sports have more teams and more players so drafted players have big chance or guarantee ( not from NA dont know ) that they will be picked. In league we have 10 teams in LCS and rookies are risky and costly ( cheaper than experienced player but if you take him as a sub its additional cost ) and not so many players retire. we had like 25 players on scouting grounds but what is the demand on rookie players in LCS ? i dont think its as big to equal the supply which is greater

                                                        [–]THANKS-FOR-THE-GOLD 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Or they can at least make money trading the star picks away and staying profitable, or use that build up a team of lesser known/hyped but still top quality players.

                                                        [–]NintenJewBelgian Blue 54ポイント55ポイント  (87子コメント)

                                                        One of the benefits I can see from franchising is that by its nature, owners can invest more money into their teams without the risk of losing it. This could lead to more infrastructure, higher salaries to players, etc. This could allow the current teams to get better. For something like league, a team can be gone in a split. That might not be enough time for the infrastructure to take place and make a team really competitive. The risk is there, so it is probably that owners won't invest as much money into their teams.

                                                        Now I don't know if franchising will cause more owners to invest money into their teams. But if they do, I can see how franchising has its benefits. Teams can't really be sustained in the challenger scene, but if the teams were guaranteed to be in LCS, and owners put more money into the teams because of that fact, I can see the skill level increase. That would be good for the viewers.

                                                        [–]Fredthefree 36ポイント37ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                                        But the reverse could happen too. A team knows they can't be relegated so they don't invest in themselves and just play for last place money.

                                                        [–]ak1knight 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                        Then they would be voted out of the league by a governing body (either the other owners or the LCS itself)

                                                        [–]keyonte0 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        voted out of the league by a governing body (either the other owners or the LCS itself)

                                                        Lot's of room for corruption, there. An owner that is friends with other owners is much less likely to get voted out than someone that doesn't bother to build alliances.

                                                        [–]ScoobyPwnsOnU 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        This, people are acting like the competitive scene will just go ham and throw everything out the window just because there's no AUTOMATED system for relegation. It doesn't have to be automated

                                                        [–]IqMqsdNo More Rengar :( 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        It is not automated, how is getting last 3 places and having to fight for your spot is considered automated? How come the actually established clubs like PSG and S04, teams run with people who actually know what they are talking about, don't want in on franchising, but NA orgs, most of which started 7 years or less ago think it's actually a good idea? All that franchising incites is a less competitive environnement because you can still be last, play like shit, and use bronze V player on your team, and nothing bad can happen to you, you're immune from relegations, maybe I grew with european football leagues, but I'm pretty sure that it does not help the competitive environnement nor developpement of talent.

                                                        [–]___jamil___ 46ポイント47ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                        they wouldn't get sponsors then

                                                        [–]Mpuls37CLG Mpuls 2018 29ポイント30ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                        Exactly. Franchising is good for players b/c it opens up more opportunity for sponsors, thus earning the team and, indirectly, the players more money. If a team hires better coaches, we will see an increase in the level of competition. More money in the field=more attractive for outsiders looking to get in.

                                                        People arguing that "franchising will leave shitty teams in the league" are right in a certain respect. In American professional sports, we have cases like the Cleveland Browns who are not expected to win anything this year. In every league, there is a "worst" team, but even they take games every now and again, and every game they win is an upset. However, at the end of the season, their players still get paid. Doesn't matter if they were the worst 50-man roster in the NFL, they still get a paycheck. The owner can choose to hire different players, which is enough threat that guys try their hardest to keep their job.

                                                        Saying that players aren't going to try is like saying doctors are going to stop getting doctorates. As long as there are players in Challenger, pros will try to keep their jobs. Yes, the environment in NA doesn't really lend itself to roster depth, but if teams know they can replace an insubordinate player and still get to stay in the League, then their coach will have authority, which is obviously necessary for a healthy team environment.

                                                        [–]hawkeye4400 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        I agree. People aren't separating the orgs from the players in these arguments. The teams will have been given permanent spots the players will be fighting for their jobs just like always. Plus more money means higher player salaries, and I'm all for kids making millions playing video games.

                                                        [–]sahR3ap3R 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        and if we stay in NFL, since there is no draftphase in LoL like the NFL teams wont just "tank" 1-2 seasons to get better players, but instead owners will make sure their players are giving their best (what anybody would expect from a professional player anyway just from his mentality) since its all about prestige in this franchise system to get good players to join your team. and this would be another argument supporting the LoL franchise system to make it an even more competitive and especially higher skilled scene.

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                                                            [–]NintenJewBelgian Blue 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            Well obviously the reverse could happen. I was just mentioning the one way I could think of where franchising would help. I am sure there are many other ways franchising could help. I am not on the inside when it comes to these deals so I personally do not know. If franchising happens I will watch and see what occurs. If I like it I will continue to watch. If I don't like it but the product is still entertaining, then I will continue to watch. If the product stops being entertaining I will stop watching. I think people are overreacting when there are benefits and downsides to franchising and benefits and downsides to keeping the system the way it is.

                                                            [–]Isiwjee 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            Not if there's a salary floor, which there would be.

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                                                              [–]WengaLOL 12ポイント13ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                              My fear is that it will be completely opposite of what you just said. With no relegations, team owners won't need to invest heavily if they don't want to. Instead teams can acquire bit less skilled players that are popular in LOL community and will be good in strengthening the brand value. It won't matter if a team finishes in the last place, because there won't be any relegations. Not saying all teams will do that, just that they will have that option.

                                                              With being safe, some teams won't try as hard as previously, which means that standard of the LCS will drop, and we truly will never be able to catch up with korean teams. For me as a viewer, this is far away from OK.

                                                              [–]rumballtron 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                              obviously that is a possibility. the nice thing about where LCS is and league in general is that it's spiking. the people in ownership now want to be in it for several reasons. keeping a low cost teamw ith low salary and no infrastructure would have to be a horror story for the players in order to pay itself off, and return on investment would be low.

                                                              but if you love the sport and want to capitalize and now you have the stability ofa franchise, you can put in some money and get a TON back. personally loved echofox in split1, but knew they had a chance to get relegated, and then i'd feel awfully dumb wearing their gear! but give them 3 years to build a team with a winning culture and you might be looking at a dedicated fanbase even if they come in last, cuz they will still be around next season.

                                                              [–]Frodo962 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                              Exactly, people seem to think it will be the end of competitive league. I think that players will lose some of the "oh I am the best player and am not replaceable" mentality. Dardoch could have been replaced instantly by somone who they saw potential in instead of having him come back in to the team and be toxic but carry games because he is just that good. I think this could be amazing for local talent because it allows teams to bring in players who have potential but were never given a chance because a growing period is not allowed.

                                                              [–]rumballtron 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              precisely. you see it in sports all the time, you have to rebuild when you lose somebody, or if your coach and players don't mesh, and you will have bad seasons but that's because winning is REALLY hard!

                                                              people act like the teams that are bad have no purpose...if they have franchising, bad teams can build a fanbase and get better and even if they never get playoffs in 5 splits, they can be entertaining.

                                                              lot's of people are not understanding core concepts of how to build a successful team or organization, but if franchising comes along we will see the seperation between bottom LCS teams and challenger teams be huge.

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                                                                  [–]4everchatrestrictedredditpls1 22ポイント23ポイント  (35子コメント)

                                                                  Well, honestly i don't care about owners risk of losing money. It sounds like they want it to be all Easy and stuff but that's what sport investiments are, risky, Lol . As another Eu fan i'll probably be done watching lcs if franchising happens, the splits format is already bad enough to make it less exciting than csgo tournaments format, if franchising happens it will just become a big non competitive joke

                                                                  [–]FedoraFerretWildcard Best Region 13ポイント14ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                  You should. If the owners risk losing money, then they won't invest as much of it, and if they don't invest as much money then the team won't be as good. You think TSM is a great team by merit of their TSM jerseys? No, it's because they can afford to invest the money in the best players, the best coaches, the best support staff.

                                                                  [–]OneDayIWillBe 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                  TSM are a fan favourite... you act like every team has the potential to be that.

                                                                  [–]ShiroQ 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                  TSM has been around the start of league of legends. Do you think TSM would have as much fans if they were relegated for 3 seasons out of 6? team would probably have disbanded. Why would i follow a team that gets relegated after 20 games? Fans want stability. Franchising allows that. Real life teams do not disband after 1 season. even if they drop to shit leagues they are still around and thats why in real life even small teams have fan bases. If clubs disbanded every year then no one would follow the new clubs because you would think "oh its going to disband after 1 season anyway fuck them i will follow the team that doesnt get disbanded"

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                                                                          [–]Mr_FidoriBRING ME THE BOOTY 9ポイント10ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                                                          The problem is that with the current system, since there aren't enough good players, we simply replace one shit team with another. Unless we tap into an unknown pool of worthy players, franchising is appealing because the bottom teams might actually have time to improve, gather resources, and maybe not have the bottom of the league be so terrible.

                                                                          [–]ShiroQ 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                          there is no new good players because team owners rather take washed up pros that have LCS experience instead of trying new players that never been in LCS. Why? because old talent has been there done that and its much safer than newbies. In my opinion with franchising we would see more subs and more unkown players from challanger because there would be no risk to experiment. and now there is a huge risk to experiment

                                                                          [–]SoDamnToxicsneakyJack sneakySoTroll meteosW jensenW haiW sneakyW smooW 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                          Every problem all comes back to the fact that the challenger series is so shitty.

                                                                          There is definitely potential, NA memes aside, I'm sure there are better supports to field than fucking kiwikid every damn time. Even if they aren't presently better some people just have a good personality for taking training in a good way and improving a lot.

                                                                          [–]Aoaelos 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                          we simply replace one shit team with another

                                                                          Which team is shit and which team is not is always being dictated by the existing competition. There are always going to be tiers within a league, no matter the system. Its happening in all sports since the dawn of time and i dont see why LoL should be an exception

                                                                          The problem appears when said shit teams get permanent spots because they won a bidding

                                                                          [–]DILIPEK 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                          i dont agree , there are many talented players but for some teams its easier to go with 5 retired players ex c9challanger went with full "legends" roster and got a spot in LCS , in comparison other teams like TL actually tried to develop talent via challanger. problem is that nobody gave C9c shit about not sticking to what they said ( they said they will go with full new talent roster but then they prolly thought its to risky and eveyrbody loves 1mil$ ). We have massive amounts of talent but it needs time , they need stage time and franchising can help with that ( no risk of relegation ) but on the other hand there may be less competetivness so orgs may go with semi-good Legend players that hit their skill cap because they already have fanbase

                                                                          [–]neenerpants 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                          I really wish that no matter how shit I did in my job, I could never get fired. What a sweet deal these LCS owners are getting.

                                                                          [–]Duzcek 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                          In our leagues teams that are awful like the 76er's or the 49er's get first round draft picks. Sure teams are god awful for a few years but after getting all the good college students they improve. In America the top teams will eventually become worse due to losing star players from retirement and not being able to pick up the new ones due to being last in the draft, while the bottom teams become better thanks to the fresh blood. I don't see why league couldn't have like 10 Riot teams in a challenger series and once a year we have a draft where teams like Echo Fox could go and pick up the best new up-and-comer while TSM gets all the money for winning a crowd-funded play-off tournament. Eventually Echo Fox becomes better due to getting all the new talent coming in while TSM wins for a bit before it's players begin to retire.

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                                                                            [–]MartDiamond 85ポイント86ポイント  (35子コメント)

                                                                            With BoX series in LCS it already became difficult to watch every game, but if relegations go through I'll probably only watch big games and my favourite teams. If there's nothing on the line then who the hell cares. Only reason to watch bottom tier teams would be an exciting player or prospect, but guess what those teams can grab 5 random shitters for a low salary without consequence.

                                                                            [–]___jamil___ 63ポイント64ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                            kinda like how most people only watch their favorite sports teams. y'all act like this is a shocking turn of events. this is how all sports are.

                                                                            [–]MartDiamond 30ポイント31ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                            The problem is that if this happens the viewership will tank. We already saw it last split when there were two games on at the same time. There was a stark contrast between the numbers for the lower tier games vs the higher tier games, and that's something that you can't really afford. If there's a big game in the Premier League there will be tens of millions watching from the entire world, if there's a game between teams fro, the bottom of the table there will still be millions watching it. In League that difference is between 500k and 5k.

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                                                                                [–]Cosm1cStardust 57ポイント58ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                LCS in 2018 LUL

                                                                                [–]TornadoofDOOMBang! 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                2017*

                                                                                [–]Ngjeoooo 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                Franchising will go through in 2018, if it does.

                                                                                [–]ZeXo519 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                I agree, if they remove the various stories, LCS will have nothing left. I mean, you don't watch LCS for quality League of Legends anyway.

                                                                                [–]FiftySentos 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                Yes. Because people totally watch the LCS for the lower tier teams.

                                                                                Must be why they get 15k viewers while the top teams get 150k+.

                                                                                QTpie streams gets as much viewers as promotion matches unless some big org academy team is playing.

                                                                                [–]mrLismos 13ポイント14ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                                                                sry i'm kinda new to this, what is franchise?

                                                                                football speaking at the end of the season if one team is in the end of the ladder they will be put in the minor league. this does not appens in NA? i'm italian so i speak thinking about SERIE A and SERIE B the second league

                                                                                [–]OriginalBuzz 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                NBA and NFL for example have all the same teams every season, no matter who wins or loses. There is no relegation like a team dropping out of a league.

                                                                                [–]foldman 11ポイント12ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                Think of it like SERIE A was locked forever and teams from SERIE B could never reach it. Unless one of the owners of a team in SERIE A decided to sell their spot.

                                                                                [–]mrLismos 27ポイント28ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                kinda lame..the competition need all the aspect for being "competitive" and appealing. teams should fight not only to win but also to not lose. does NA sports have franchise?

                                                                                [–]JerryYorkshire 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                yes, thats why so many people here think thats a good idea and cant understand why relegation is so important for us Europeans

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                                                                                      [–]Alibobaly 33ポイント34ポイント  (16子コメント)

                                                                                      If challenger wasn't a joke then relegation wouldn't be a death sentence to your business. If Riot doesn't want franchising, they need to fix the challenger series.

                                                                                      [–]Aoaelos 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                      It isnt a death sentence. Schalke fell in CS and it exists just fine. The viewership of CS is fine as well for a 2nd league

                                                                                      Obviously theres room for improvement but the whole issue is very exaggerated in order to get fans to support franchising

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                                                                                        [–]Jinxedchef 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                        I honestly can't believe people are pushing forward the English Premier League as a good example. The same teams win it every year, with a 1 year exception of this past year. But in the previous 20 years, from 1996-2015, only 4 teams were champions. In American sport, (Franchising), different teams win every year, (except the Browns). Even overall team winning records, over the course of years, tend to balance out to about .500, (except the Browns).

                                                                                        Who wants a system where only 2-3 teams in the LCS can be champion and 2-3 teams are always on the verge of disappearing. To me that would be more detrimental to growth and competitiveness.

                                                                                        [–]Claosae 44ポイント45ポイント  (33子コメント)

                                                                                        In my country, Greece, a historically top 4 team that never fell under the 1st division, got relegated 3 years ago. In its games at 3rd and 2nd division, the stadiums (both home and away ones) were fucking packed, easily 10-20k attended in each match.

                                                                                        That to whoever says that relegation means total destruction. I can fucking GUARANTEE you that if popular teams like C9, Fnatic or TSM ever fall to CS their games there will have a fuckton of viewers.

                                                                                        [–]Lama_43Gambit forever in my <3 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                        We need more teams, especially in EU, that could have a geographic fandom. Also the Challenger system is just shit, how on earth could a b tier league have far fewer teams than the main one?

                                                                                        [–]DILIPEK 25ポイント26ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                        "fuckton" comparing to other CS teams , but "fucknone" comparing to LCS games , Worlds Games , MSI Games and other international events games ( because CS teams dont participate in those events )

                                                                                        [–]Ehac 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                        Last place team won't play msi and worlds either. If they bounce back its ok and their fantasy will help them. If they can't they dont deserve it.

                                                                                        [–]Ngjeoooo 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                        Im quite certain that most people would prefer to see TSM on CS than P1 vs APEX on LCS

                                                                                        [–]lPinky 8ポイント9ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                        Same happened to my favourite team in the German Bundesliga. They got relegated this year and had 60.000+ viewers in their home games this season.

                                                                                        [–]Duzcek 39ポイント40ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                                        That's because football teams have a home city and a home crowd with dedicated fans that have been around for over a hundred years. It's also worth noting that their viewership on television dropped dramatically as soon as they fell out of the Bundesliga meaning a loss in sponsorship dealings, a loss in television revenue and a loss in viewer outreach.

                                                                                        [–]lPinky 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                        Well I think if Riot would start promoting the CS like LCS it would get more viewers. Atm CS feels like sunday league.

                                                                                        [–]Duzcek 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                        Riot used to have Challenger series directly after LCS and it was doing great, the numbers were like 80-100k but then they changed that all in S5 and S6 and viewership droppped significantly to like 20k for the matches that they would even broadcast. I would so much prefer them going back to the way they used to do it.

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                                                                                            [–]Canarmane 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                            The Challenger series is woefully under-resourced compared to the LCS. Unlike in places like European football, where relegation doesn't have as large an impact on visibility and this revenue, relegation in League was basically death.

                                                                                            As a result, there were only ever two outcomes once owners complained: franchising, or a dramatic systemic overhauling the Challenger series.

                                                                                            [–]rcanhestroDefinitely Not Thresh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                            hell, Juventus got relegated because of calciocaos, lost all the key players, and yet it recovered.

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                                                                                              [–]foldman 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                              I agree 100% with op and I would most likely only watch worlds if they franchise EU teams, which are the one I follow regularly.

                                                                                              [–]_teslaTrooper 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              EU is guaranteed not franchised until 2019 or something, watch monte's video about the team owners letter. I don't think EU LCS will ever become franchised tbh.

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                                                                                                [–]pm_me_with__nudes 32ポイント33ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                                Owners want more money and dont want to risk losing it, they dont give a shit about the competition.

                                                                                                [–]Aoaelos 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                Good for them. And good for us viewers to protest against that since it affects us negatively.

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                                                                                                  [–]JohnTheGenius43 22ポイント23ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                                  Give NA franchising, let EU keep relegations. Problem solved.

                                                                                                  [–]Ngjeoooo 23ポイント24ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                                  Im from NA and i dont want franchising

                                                                                                  [–]iamk1ng 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                  I'm from NA and I want franchising. We've had relegation for 3+ seasons now and we're still seeing the same shitty bottom 4 teams rotate in and out between CS and LCS. Thankfully I don't support any of those teams but I'd be much happier if everything was locked down and teams were allowed room to grow and flourish.

                                                                                                  [–]LeotheYordle[DerpyGeth] (NA) 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                  The thing with relegation that I've never really liked is that it forces LCS teams to grab established names even if they aren't very good just because you know that they can somewhat hang with the mid/upper teams.

                                                                                                  Because let's be honest here, would KiwiKid have stayed in the LCS for half as long as he did if there was franchising? Would he have been given a spot in NRG? Hell no, he'd have been gone far before then in favor of a support you can help develop into a good player.

                                                                                                  [–]TheRandomNPC 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                  And it's not like teams are doing that much better. EF went like 1-17 and still managed to stay in. A C9 team in challenger made it in off the back of veteran players. Without relegations we might see bottom team improve instead of give up half way and just do whatever they can to not get relegated. Also, we won't see any more challenger teams get boosted by ex-LCS players that can make so easy money off it. Now challenger can just be a place for teams to try and grow talent and look at up and coming players.

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                                                                                                      [–]Azelya 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                      Whether you think relegations and/or franchising in general are yay or nay is something you can certainly discuss but here's something that, at the end of the day, many a people seem to be forgetting. The single most important thing for any sport, be it electronic or "traditional" is the viewers. Not the teams as a whole or the team owners, the people running the league (if different from owners), not any other corporate people or commentators and no, not even the players.

                                                                                                      No viewers = no interest = no sponsors = no income = no career

                                                                                                      [–]deemerritt 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      Yea and i highly doubt all the peopel bitching sat through and watched all the bottom tier teams face each other every week this season anyway.

                                                                                                      [–]theelementalflow 23ポイント24ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                                                                      Shitpost and unpopular opinion, but I don't think viewers will die because of this. League will become a more stable environment for team owners allowing them to grow their brand and in turn grow more fans. League can become more competitive with this change and from a business point of view, they can grow the game with sponsorships more willing to invest because of the stability of lol's esports.

                                                                                                      [–]Terafys 28ポイント29ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                      Bye!

                                                                                                      [–]ShiroQ 59ポイント60ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                                      this is such a joke and the most ignorant post i have ever seen. Franchising is key to have NA succeed as a region. Besides the TOP 4 the region is a complete joke. There isnt enough money or stability for the teams without major backing to succeed. You spend 1 million to get into LCS hire the players and after that if you fail you lose your money and you say fuck this shit i wont try anymore. There isnt enough stability. TSM and CLG are the only two teams in NA that have been there from the start and they have never been relegated. and guess what they are the most well known 2 teams in the region with C9 maybe competing for the CLG spot in terms of popularity. Other teams last 1-2 years max and at first sight of failure they disband. Why? Because it costs too much to run a team and if you fail you have to spend a long time earning almost next no to money to get back into LCS with the thought that you might get relegated again. Franchising takes the pressure of teams financially because they will be getting at least riot salary to pay the players. on challenger series you do not get that.

                                                                                                      Sure relegation's is more exciting but is it really? i mean as a TSM fan i dont really care if Echo Fox gets relegated because if they do another team will appear and most likely do shit and get relegated.

                                                                                                      People do not realise that there is not enough stability in the teams and fan bases to support teams that get relegated. In real life if a team like Manchester United would get relegated they have a huge backing from their city even if non local fans abandon them. While in League of legends the only teams that would get support in relegation situation are TSM, C9 and CLG and even then a huge amount of fans would jump on the next big team. Franchising allows for a bigger fan base because year in and out you will see Echo Fox being up there and many people will start liking smaller teams because they are constantly there. Teams that do not do well in LCS have almost no fans because every year they get disbanded. Thats why smaller team fans actually are fans of certain players and follow them from team to team instead of following a team

                                                                                                      TDLR there is not enough money and stability to have relegations if NA or EU wants to be a succesfull region. Korea doesnt have to worry about money because they have billion dollar companies backing them so they can just focus on playing and improving while NA and EU have to focus how to make money too. and also its really hardd for teams to get fans bases because after a year or so they disband.

                                                                                                      [–]iuhoosierkyle[IUHoosierKyle] (NA) 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                      As an EF fan, I was terrified they were going to be relegated, and would have to find another team to follow. I think franchising is the best way to go because it allows viewers to follow a particular team year in and year out. Otherwise, you are stuck following one of the big 3 or 4 teams in NA because you can't guarantee that any of the other teams will be around come next year, and nobody is going to be a fan of a team that only played for 10 weeks.

                                                                                                      [–]rcanhestroDefinitely Not Thresh 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                      korea has relegations, and it's working pretty well for them.

                                                                                                      NA needs it's players to try their best. not just "accept their results and try better next year". if a team in Korea is relegated, you can bet a new set of players are hungry enough to take their chance.

                                                                                                      [–]Cupcakeboss 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                      KR has sponsors because they actually have a well developed esports scene with people wiling to invest.

                                                                                                      [–]LeotheYordle[DerpyGeth] (NA) 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      Yeah, seriously. It's not like the infrastructure for the LoL scene sprouted up just because Korea is good. Most of the teams were already established SC2 organizations.

                                                                                                      [–]DaPhoToss 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                      Yet the 2nd best team in the world doesn't have a sponsor and no backing from Kespa or any other e-sports organization.

                                                                                                      [–]Bootsnpots[🍰] 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                      I wish I could upvote this more. People that are against franchising are extremely ignorant to business and fail to see how more money and security = better competition.

                                                                                                      edit: now that I think about it... It is EU primetime and all of those "blokes" love their relegation systems.

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                                                                                                        [–]Noobity 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                        And im done watching until "franchising" becomes a thing.

                                                                                                        [–]Ambushh 33ポイント34ポイント  (55子コメント)

                                                                                                        I'm confused how franchising = meaningless matches.

                                                                                                        Do you not watch professional sports?

                                                                                                        I understand a lot of the arguments against franchising but this is a pretty shit one. If there is a permanent grouping of teams then the overall value of the matches skyrockets because the best players will be guaranteed to be on those teams. Rather than the current system where you could have a great player that gets relegated and is now in challenger.

                                                                                                        In fact what you're proposing makes even less sense.

                                                                                                        I dont want to watch a league where the only thing that matters is the top 1-4 teams

                                                                                                        That is the current system right now....

                                                                                                        In this relegation format the best talent will not join the newest team with the highest chance of relegation. There is no security in it and they are much better off praying for a sub spot on the big 4 teams than going to the competition. This reinforces what you're referring to where only the top 1-4 teams matter and this is what has been going on for almost every season of LCS.

                                                                                                        Whereas in a franchise system, every single team has a chance of getting the best players because there is no fear of the player getting fucked over. The overriding criteria to join a team then is player skill, which is a much healthier system than the current one. Players can still be cut for not performing well, there is more competition for the players because you're actually going to get valuable people competing for the spots on every team.

                                                                                                        Team infrastructure will also grow, practice facilities and regiments will get better because they can invest more into increasing the skill level of their players and coaching staff. This exponentially increases the growth of not just different regions and their ability to compete with one another but also increases the growth of the LCS as a whole. It becomes a better investment for advertisers, players, coaches, teams and viewers and I guarantee you it will happen.

                                                                                                        tl;dr - Franchising is the pivotal growth point in most sports, it will exponentially increase competition, infrastructure, salaries, advertising, viewer value and the game as a whole. Just because reddit is circlejerking one way doesn't mean you should blindly agree.

                                                                                                        [–]Virtymlol 35ポイント36ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                                                                        Franchising is the pivotal growth point in AMERICAN SPORTS. The experience is entirely different in Europe where Relegation system is the norm.

                                                                                                        [–]GoAraJjangex-Najin Refugee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                        So franchise NA, don't franchise EU, and let's watch where the investments and good players go.

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                                                                                                          [–]HaeCho 15ポイント16ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                          Youve missed his point. You are talking about where the best talent goes.

                                                                                                          He wants engaging games at the end of season. He enjoys Relegation games as they are tense as fuck.

                                                                                                          viewer value

                                                                                                          Viewers decide viewer value, not owners. Good luck telling EU fans that viewer value is increased with no relegation (they can what they want)

                                                                                                          [–]Ro24 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                          I don't understand the arguments that franchising = less competition. Franchising in American sports leads to more parity than in any of the EU football leagues I looked at. Since 1992 there has been 6 different winners of the Premier League in England. In that same time frame 14 different NFL teams have won the Super Bowl. In La Liga 5 different teams have won since '92. In the NBA 10 different teams have won the Finals

                                                                                                          I'm not saying franchising is right or wrong for league, but saying that franchising leads to less competition is just wrong.

                                                                                                          [–]rags55 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                          I think most people are saying that with a relegation system, there is more at stake than who wins the championship, there is competition at the lower end of the league simply to remain IN said league, and so there's more interesting story lines due to that kind of competition.

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                                                                                                            [–]Beanxtown 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                            Do you not watch professional sports?

                                                                                                            LOL clearly you don't because only NA sports have franchising. Nice one.

                                                                                                            [–]Xiss 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                            It's basicly only NA that has some sort of franchising. Most EU sports do not.

                                                                                                            [–]Sivolde 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                            I guess you are just talking about professional sports in the US and have never watched a sport outside of it. EU doesn't have franchising, our football league is huge and without any of the problems you are stating.

                                                                                                            [–]FiftySentos 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                            Really?

                                                                                                            Because in the same time frame of 1992 to now, the NFL had more than doubled the amount of teams winning the championship than the Premier League.

                                                                                                            Franchised leagues have a more diverse group of winners than the relegation leagues. So the "kills competition" bullshit is straight up disproven. If anything, relegation leagues just encourages more top heavy leagues due to the inherent inequality toward smaller, younger teams. Meanwhile, every team in a franchised league have a much more even playing field, which transitions to the amount of different teams winning every year.

                                                                                                            Btw, 4 out of the top 5 highest grossing sports leagues are franchised.

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                                                                                                                [–]lololbuddi 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                The whole community attitude towards this has had such a sense of entitlement it's disgusting. Guess what this sub is nowhere CLOSE to being the majority of the people that watch LCS. If some people think viewership will really be affected because some people on reddit don't like it then they're deluded because the average viewer won't care. Also I bet that even the people that are saying "hurr durr no relegation no competitive integrity" will end up watching anyway.

                                                                                                                Made the same comment in an earlier thread. Downvote me all you vote but come back to me if viewership is affected by franchising. This is again a knee jerk reaction/circlejerk by people on this sub who think they are way more important than they actually are.

                                                                                                                [–]PyromiteLOL 16ポイント17ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                                                Reason's why I hate NA sports: We have teams like the Browns, 76ers, etc. that constantly tank just so they have better chances at getting the next best rookie and every year they pick some dud. Seeing the same crappy teams every year is annoying and Id rather not have LCS teams troll the last few games of the year because "they don't matter."

                                                                                                                [–]ProWresBlog2 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                Reason's why I hate NA sports: We have teams like the Browns, 76ers, etc. that constantly tank just so they have better chances at getting the next best rookie and every year they pick some dud. Seeing the same crappy teams every year is annoying and Id rather not have LCS teams troll the last few games of the year because "they don't matter."

                                                                                                                You are wrong here.

                                                                                                                The NE Patriots ring a bell? They were awful throughout the 80's. Now? One of the most stable organizations

                                                                                                                The Warriors? Bad for most of their existence. Now the most popular team in the League along with another organization that was bad for a long time - The Cavaliers.

                                                                                                                The Clippers? One of the most worthless teams for their majority of their run. Now? They are doing better than the Lakers.

                                                                                                                And you have a short memory with the 76ers. Have you forgotten their title in the 80's and the Iverson era?

                                                                                                                [–]kitchenmaniac111 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                That's a problem with the draft system.

                                                                                                                [–]omgsiriuslyzombiIGN Majick ZoMbi 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                                                I've been a Cubs fan for 27 years and you havent the slightest clue what joy I've experienced. Its not like the Browns and 76ers arent trying, they just dont have the right chemistry yet. After a Lifetime of a heavy sigh and decloration of "Next Year" by myself, my father, and my brother, all 3 of us are finally rocking World Series Championship apparel with our team's logo on it. It resulted in the 7th largest gathering of people in history when they finally did it. Just because a team has it rough for a long time doesnt mean they dont deserve to play.

                                                                                                                [–]kwerkor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                The Browns aren't tanking. They are having a ton of injury problems right now, and they actually were looking pretty good at the beginning of the season despite losing very close games. The Browns were in a position to make the playoffs a few years ago with a 7-5 record in week 13 before their QB got injured.

                                                                                                                Being bad is part of franchised sports. The 49ers were terrible after Steve Young. The Raiders were bad for about 14 years post Rich Gannon. The Browns actually used to be decent, back in the 90's. Franchised leagues just move talent around instead of players.

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                                                                                                                  [–]bacon88er 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                  If i'm going to be completely honest, if you are going to stop watching the LCS because of something like relegations is removed, you might as well stop watching now. All of these fans getting butthurt talking about stopping watching LCS could literally do that and it would barely dent the viewership numbers. It was nice knowing you friend, but you will not be missed very much.

                                                                                                                  [–]versaknight 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                                  This is the best way to protest imo. If viewer numbers drop significantly (thats a big IF) but if they do, then riot has to take action

                                                                                                                  [–]Salohacin 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                                  I'll probably still watch it but I'll never have the same hype for new teams again. Splyce, G2, UoL... I'll miss not seeing new teams. It's gunna be stale and you'll have teams that really don't belong in the LCS.

                                                                                                                  [–]serujiow 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                  The rosters will still change if the teams suck the only difference is that the team name will be the same.

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                                                                                                                    [–]MartinChatskiGold III NA 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    I first started watching League in season 4 promotion series. I saw Complexity get promoted and I was their fan for as long as they lasted (rip :(). I also remember watching Aphromoo pull out all those supports I had never seen before; Alistar, Janna... he made so many plays that the casters hyped up and kept CLG in LCS. I can never forget that experience because it's how I BEGAN watching LCS.

                                                                                                                    [–]n0cks 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Does the elimination of relegations mean that no new teams can enter the LCS unless a team already inside willingly drop out?

                                                                                                                    [–]jack1133222 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    St arxidia mas

                                                                                                                    [–]NightmarishPT[NightmarishPT] (EU-W) 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                    What about get:

                                                                                                                    • Division 1 and Division 2
                                                                                                                    • Together both divisions have 30 or 40 teams that are always the same
                                                                                                                    • Teams get promoted and relegated between them

                                                                                                                    Everyone gets what they want?

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    To be honest as an European I find it silly that teams don't get relegated (just like in NBA) but I can also understand that as a new sport its hard for teams to stay competitive if they get relegated, since the funding is low and only comes from Riot.

                                                                                                                    [–]FreEeSM 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    • S6 for me was a large drop off. I used to watch every game in every region. EU hasnt been the same since Joe and Dman left, I tried to watch a few games but comparing those games to LCK I can honestly say it was like watching teams that are 5 steps behind the Koreans.

                                                                                                                    • NA I do like the people on the teams so I watched all the games for the teams I do like CLG, C9, IMT, rest I couldn't be bothered about 50% down from S5. Even the LCK this year was totally fucked up by the piggy back broadcasts and the lower team games were boring or just unwatchable for me comparing them to the top teams.

                                                                                                                    • The only thing that made games that had lower tier teams involved in them toward the end of the season was the idea they were fighting for the right to stay in the league. If this is removed then more teams go on the list of teams I will not care about or watch.

                                                                                                                    [–]huzbinpharten 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    In the end, there are pro's and con's to both systems. I don't personally feel that franchising would in anyway hurt my viewer experience but that is me.

                                                                                                                    [–]muricaCARRY 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Look, having a franchise-like system will actually increase the general level of competition in the LCS. Right now, smaller orgs have to be fearful each split of losing their spot in the LCS and having their team be an enormous sunk cost. With more security, they are able to spend more money on players and player support to give their team the best chance to succeed. I mean basically all major sports except soccer follow a franchise model. This will get rid of new teams which display shady behavior and provide a more secure environment for players and owners alike.

                                                                                                                    [–]Threshticles 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    ITT: People who have zero understanding of business economics and opportunity cost.

                                                                                                                    [–]MinusCap 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    bye bye

                                                                                                                    [–]kiroks 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                                    I love the fact that you believe that lcs team owners are making massive profits. Unless the team is popular, they barely break even or in some cases operate at a loss.

                                                                                                                    [–]BR0prahWinfrey 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    i, for one, am really excited for potential franchising!!!

                                                                                                                    [–]SaltySeahorses 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Welcome to the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc.

                                                                                                                    [–]soadmankevin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    I watch NFL and it is great. Same teams, different storyline. Now shut the fuck up already, jfc you whiny kids.

                                                                                                                    [–]fuck_na_crowds 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    the way you type is just so fucking cringe

                                                                                                                    [–]kujo242 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    This subreddit is so melodramatic

                                                                                                                    [–]Perais 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Bye

                                                                                                                    [–]ThatsSoAnnoying 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                    ITT Empty Threats

                                                                                                                    Just like people who say "If this character dies in my favorite show, I'll never watch again!" or "If this developer keeps putting this unwanted DRM in their games, I'll never buy another one!" or "If this wrestler doesn't win at the PPV, I'm never watching WWE again!"

                                                                                                                    Just a bunch of BS. You won't quit. You'll be back.

                                                                                                                    [–]pecual 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Great post, i agree to everything. If no relegation go through in 2018 as Monte said that most likely will, season 7 will be the last season of true competition in LCS.

                                                                                                                    [–]DaWaffleSmuggler 16ポイント17ポイント  (60子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Literally every sport in NA is franchised. Our culture is different here, sports are insanely popular in NA and franchising LoL is only going to help the sport. All of this talk about fair competition is pretty unwarranted. Nobody is going to own and LCS and not try to compete to the best of their ability. Doesn't make sense.

                                                                                                                    [–]HaeCho 36ポイント37ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                                    and LCS and not try to compete to the best of their ability

                                                                                                                    Im suire players do.

                                                                                                                    However, in franchising, an end of season 8th vs 9th has literally no importance for me as a viewer. Currently it does.

                                                                                                                    sports are insanely popular in NA

                                                                                                                    As opposed to outside of NA, where sports arent popular

                                                                                                                    LCS and not try to compete to the best of their ability

                                                                                                                    Im sure they willl. However, games between 8th-10th are now pointless. As a viewer, I dont care, it means nothing.

                                                                                                                    [–]Menanzil 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Isn't the franchise of NA teams based on citys?

                                                                                                                    [–]Sivolde 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                                    95% of the sports in EU are not franchised. Out culture is different here, sports are insanely popular in EU and franchising LoL is only going to harm the sport. All of this talk about fair competition is pretty warranted.

                                                                                                                    [–]JerryYorkshire 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Is there even one popular franchised sport here in Europe?

                                                                                                                    [–]Sivolde 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Popular, no, but sports like american football are franchised though. The bundes league (German league, no idea how to write it) actually quit franchising around 1950-1960.

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                                                                                                                      [–]Ngjeoooo 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                                      It has nothing to do with culture rofl, sports are popular in NA because watching franchised leagues is the only thing you can do if you want to watch teams from your region.

                                                                                                                      Franchising wasnt done by making a referendum where the majority said that it prefers franchising. It was literally forced down people's throats. For example i hate franchising but i watch NBA because i cant really do anything else if i want to watch high level play of my favourite sport.

                                                                                                                      And what happens in sports doesnt necessarily needs to happen in Esports.

                                                                                                                      [–]Raogrimm 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                      It was literally forced down people's throats.

                                                                                                                      lol

                                                                                                                      Franchising wasnt done by making a referendum where the majority said that it prefers franchising.

                                                                                                                      You don't need a referendum. People vote with their wallets and the 4 major sports hear the billions of dollars they are making loud and clear. They could change to a relegation system but why would they when what they use already works so well.

                                                                                                                      For example i hate franchising but i watch NBA because i cant really do anything else if i want to watch high level play of my favourite sport.

                                                                                                                      This is BS. Get League Pass and watch the Spurs, Warriors, Cavs or something. There is 30 teams in the NBA. There are good match-ups every week to keep people interested.

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                                                                                                                          [–]Mr_FidoriBRING ME THE BOOTY 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                                          I dont want to watch a league where the only thing that matters is the top 1-4 teams.

                                                                                                                          This is exactly how it is now.

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