全 99 件のコメント

[–]ecafyelims [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Give Hillary some credit too. She helped keep Dems out of the voting booths.

[–]NCSUGrad2012 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think she deserves more credit than Obama. They ran someone who was under FBI investigation and expected it to go well.

[–]waxbolt [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah, it was stupid of them to believe that the FBI wouldn't insert itself in the political process.

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Honestly it's not clear it was Hillary, as Trump did overperform turnout in PA, OH, FL and NC. It's not clear who could have beaten Trump, though it seems about 60% of the Dems are going to go hard hard leftwing populism to try and take him down.

Some Dems are very concerned about that though as it's tough for leftwing populism to overcome rightwing populism which is far more historically popular.

[–]CoyoteBanned [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Plus they have all the footage of the left wing rioting for the commercials. We started here (anti trump riots) and we ended here... "Morning in America II"

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah it's going to be a horribly tough election to win, and trusting in demographics is a bit silly. Trump still has lots of room to run with black voters and white voters alike.

[–]yep45Constitutionalist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It was really a team effort on their part

[–]theAangstykid [スコア非表示]  (45子コメント)

Do we really have to repeat "thanks Obama!" for the horrific performance of the Democratic party? Obama was running a country, not a political party. We shouldn't conflate his legacy with the massive mistakes of Debbie and Hillary.

There are far more consequential people to blame for how the DNC fucked everything up this election season. Hate obama or not, he is going to leave office with favorable ratings and a reputation as someone who maintained his cool and wit in the face of mountains of bullshit. Lots of people around the world do like him and will miss him when he's gone.

[–]popfreq [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I'm a centrist. The massive mistakes of Hillary for me are the war in Libya, the destabilization of Syria, mismanaging the relationship with Russia and a host of other countries, consistently funding fundamentalist Islamic groups, and undermining secular groups -- leading to the growth of ISIS and a new generation of fundamentalist Islamic militants -- leading to a spate of copy cat / inspired attacks within the US from their followers, and so on.

Obama was directly responsible for all of this. Actually as the person who signed-ff on the decisios, he more responsible for this than Hillary.

[–]Arcola56 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Down-ballot votes are generally a reflection of the efficacy of the party, of which the President generally serves as the figurehead. Regardless of the President's policies, the perception of them has been more negative than positive, and the party's stumbles reflect that.

[–]fastbeemer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The loss is pretty squarely on the shoulders of the DNC, they picked a terrible candidate, and then manipulated a primary victory. I believe history will show that the tremendous loss was a result of the DNC disenfranchising their own voter base. There were something like 10 million less voters in this election, that many voters changes the outcome of nearly every other election on the ticket.

I'm willing to wager that a super majority of the voters who stayed home were Democrat leaning, and were probably Bernie supporters. The third party candidates did more harm to Trump's numbers than Hillary's, Johnson voters were probably right leaning, and Stein was openly railing against Clinton.

While a statement like this might feel good after the victory, Obama will be remembered in history as the first Black president, and Healthcare will probably always carry his name, regardless of its ultimate form. Past that he won't be remembered for anything else policy wise, his executive orders will most likely be widely reversed, and if the Trump presidency goes badly, he might be remembered for not ultimately leading his party.

I also think his response on Kimmel's show about "at least being President", will be forever shown as a premature celebration fail. It's one thing to say you don't believe he would get elected, it's another to shove it in his face and then be wrong. He will regret that moment for the rest of his life, it sullied him and had no upside.

[–]sonofsmog [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The President is the de facto leader of the political party occupying the White House.

[–]polynomialpusher [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yet has little to do with them surprisingly.

[–]sonofsmog [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He sure as hell could have told Pelosi and Reed to go out there and find at least a handful of Republican votes for the affordable care act, but it was so odious that had a hard time even getting all of their own party on board. The only bipartisanship there was that 34 Democrats voted against it.

[–]Carl_MacLaren [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I don't know, I'd say 8 years of consistently poor policy decisions might have a large effect on which party people choose to vote for.

[–]theAangstykid [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

That same argument was made in 2012. People were convinced obama made 4 straight years of poor policy decisions, yet he personally beat Romney harder than Trump beat Hillary.

Like I said, Obama can't assume responsibility when far worse people were actively destroying the democratic party. His 2 terms are up, and people are no longer voting based on him, but on other, far worse people.

[–]CoyoteBanned [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Romney

Romney inexplicably quit fighting and tried to ride it out. That's why he lost. He also shared Obama's key vulnerability in healthcare with Romneycare as an ACA forerunner.

[–]777Sir [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Romney was a mediocre candidate though. He had a lot of the same policy problems Obama had in his own state, and he played softball in every debate. He was also running while the "Bush/Reps ruined the economy" thing was still running strong, before Obamacare ruined everyone's bills, and against the first black president.

Being a part of something historic like that is very appealing. You have to account for that, at least. I doubt the second black president will even come close to pulling the same kind of numbers Obama did in the election after accounting for population growth.

[–]CoyoteBanned [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Obama (and the ACA arguably) was the whole reason it was a Change Election.

[–]CHNLLOS_BIG_BOY [スコア非表示]  (23子コメント)

Obama was awful. Pushed identity bullshit way to hard. For example, sent out a memo to all public schools telling them to punish black and minority students differently because they get more suspensions than whites. "Maybe its because minority students are breaking more rules?" "Nope, your wrong and a racist. Congratulations!"

[–]theAangstykid [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

I'm a centrist, so you can forgive me if I assume your comment was just another exaggerated "thanks Obama!" statement that missed some crucial details.

Also that's a separate issue from what I was critiquing the thread about.

[–]clothar33 [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

"Centrist"
"awful mistakes of Hillary and Debbie"

Pick one.

Hillary was a candidate, she couldn't have made mistakes that would cause liberals to lose across the board like this. The sweeping losses are a proof that people didn't like the whole direction of the left (led by Obama). Not to mention DWS. DWS had zero effect on anything. If you're even mentioning DWS there are very high chances you're a Bernie supporter which means you are as far as it gets from center.

[–]theAangstykid [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I outright disagree with your false dichotomy that someone is no longer a centrist because they observed DWS, alongside Hillary, made some horrible choices that led to the Democratic Party combusting from the inside. There's just no logical connection between the two, not to mention you haven't justified it to any degree.

The simple fact is the republican party eventually (and correctly) supported their populist candidate and that base. They backed the most energetic and outgoing republicans, and they were rewarded. DWS and Hillary decided to stomp out their most energetic and outgoing democrats (yes, the Bernie base) by trying to convince them their candidate sucked. I'm not petty enough to dump this extremely important mistake on Obama. Most of this is on other people within the Democratic Party.

The sweeping losses are a proof that people didn't like the whole direction of the left (led by Obama). Not to mention DWS.

Except Obama beat the 2012 election against Romney harder than Trump beat Hillary. That's after the trite narrative that Obama was 4 straight years of bad decisions. The simple fact is people are no longer voting based on Obama, they're voting based on Hillary - and that changes everything.

[–]MZ603Centrist [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I too am a centrist and I see no hypocrisy here. Mentioning DWS doesn't indicate anything other than the fact that u/theaangstykid was paying attention. We all observed the implosion of the democratic party and it is a well-known fact that she was forced to step down prior to the DNC Convention. It may be a sweeping loss, but keep in mind that the majority of voters chose Clinton, Trump hardly has a mandate.

That being said, liberals begging that the electoral college be used to block Trump is pretty sad. If they were so concerned they should have raised the issue long ago.

[–]schlondark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He has a mandate in that the states bar california clearly wanted him over hillary; this isn't 2000 where the popular and electoral votes were both in question.

[–]clothar33 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I don't agree with your "fact".

Centrist test:

  1. Do you support Sanders?
  2. Do you believe that both center-left (Democrats) and center-right (Republicans) candidates are usually viable presidency candidates?

If you answered yes to the first or no to the second, you are not a centrist.

P.S. You're contradicting yourself. Implosion means failing miserably. Being very close and winning the popular vote is not failing miserably.

[–]bloodygripen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mean you can support sanders if you look at some other options which were available during the election and the clowns who made it to the finals.

[–]Polterghost [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You realize you can support a candidate without agreeing with them on every issue, right?

[–]MZ603Centrist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The down ballot races indicate they failed miserably.

[–]schlondark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If trump failed miserably he wouldn't have retained majorities.

[–]rbt321 [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Hillary was a candidate, she couldn't have made mistakes that would cause liberals to lose across the board like this.

Just so I'm clear, you're also saying that Bush and Republican policies from 2000 through 2008 also contained numerous mistakes; evidence being the 2008 election outcome?

I'm just trying to ensure I understand your logic. I'm not American and have no first-hand experience of American political science.

[–]clothar33 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Yes... If you're happy with someone you don't elect their opponent (or am I missing something?)

[–]rbt321 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Yes... If you're happy with someone you don't elect their opponent (or am I missing something?)

Well, probably not but the presidential party flip often seems to happen at the end of the 2nd term when there is no incumbent. So after 8 years of Politician X I will not vote for anybody X endorses.

With a 2 party system, if the hate for the current politician in power is the issue, why does the outgoing politician endorse someone?

I guess this is my dumb question: would Clinton have received more votes if Obama endorsed Trump?

[–]clothar33 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

  1. I'm not talking about presidency. I'm talking about house and senate.

  2. I didn't say people hate Obama I said they were unhappy with the policies and moving away from the left.

[–]rbt321 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I'm not talking about presidency. I'm talking about house and senate.

That might be but people go out and vote (or not) based largely on their excitement of the most visible candidates; in the USA that's the presidential candidates.

Mid-term election turnout being 50% lower makes it quite clear that applies in the USA too. It feels like the current candidate for president must have some impact on the down-ballot candidates.

[–]clothar33 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Ok then how do you explain that in 10 12 14 the democrats were losing seats badly and the opposite in 08 and 06?

Also if it's all about the candidate and Hillary was the worst candidate in the world then why didn't Democrats lose all seats or at least substantially more seats?

[–]1ndy_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Indeed. If anything, Obama has likely minimized the devastating losses for Democrats as he influenced massive turnouts in 2008 and 2012 (which helps down-ballot candidates). His approval rating has now reached 55% which is pretty decent.

[–]cg2916 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And while I think he's failed in many ways on the leadership front, it is worth remember that Democrats had a massive majority in Congress in 2009. It was bound to go down. It's like when people compare the economy from when Obama took office to now. He came in during a recession, of course things got better, they would've no matter what.

Governorships and state legislatures though? That's absolutely the Democrats' fault. They have done a horrific job on the state level in recent years, and I can't imagine Obama's reputation in many states helping them.

[–]stoffel_bristov [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I am not one of him. I would rather have hillary than obama--- not even close.

[–]yanksb4life [スコア非表示]  (19子コメント)

And the White House.

[–]RavensFan15 [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

And the Supreme Court

[–]dontbedenied [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

And the Iran Deal

[–]A_Knife_for_Phaedrus [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Did Trump say he was getting rid of the Iran Deal?

[–]RavensFan15 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Isn't the Iran Deal the reason his son (Don Jr) said he decided to run in the first place?

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yes, Trump promised to remove the $150B payment from the Iran deal on day one.

It was never ratified by the Senate so it's kind of easy to torpedo it, it's why Iran is so mad right now.

[–]CoyoteBanned [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it's why Iran is so mad right now.

When isn't Iran mad?

[–]TrumpBull [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

That is the official answer. I bet the actual answer is at the white house correspondence dinner a few years ago.

[–]RavensFan15 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I saw that again this past week, and yeah that was pretty brutal. I know it's supposed to be a roast for fun, but I would've been pretty pissed if I was in his seat. That probably legitimately pissed him off, and combined with the way the country is headed in certain aspects, he went for it.

[–]schlondark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It was clearly John Oliver's show or Russel Steinberg's tweet.

[–]lustigjh [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

To be fair, I don't think the left "lost" SCOTUS as much as they failed to take it

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

In the last 100 years, only 3 Presidents have been unseated in one term. Carter, G HW Bush (after 3 terms of GOP rule) and Hoover (Great Depression hitting).

It's extremely unlikely they can take back the presidency in 4 years. This is why the Dems are flipping out so hard, they have to do it or they're screwed big time. 1-3 justices are out in the next 4 years and 1-2 more (or 2-3 more depending on timeline) in the second 4 year period.

Court could easily be 7-2 or 6-3 conservative with 4-5 very young conservative justices.

[–]BoyWhoreWithASword [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Trump might step down after 1 term. He's already old as hell.

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I doubt it honestly but it depends entirely on his health. I mean Bernie is talking about running in 2020 lol and he'd be 78.

[–]schlondark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He seems like the kind of guy to end on a high note

[–]AbideMan [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Even he didn't have the gall to try to get the 22nd Amendment overturned

[–]yanksb4life [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I meant that he wasn't able to secure a "third term" with a Hillary Clinton win.

[–]TubesBestNoob [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

2nd Amendment too if he thought he had a chance

[–]BashAtTheBeach96 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Don't forget the homeowner rate shrinking and the number of Americans on food stamps going up by 11 million.

[–]FarsideSCConservative [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And the number of people in the work force down.

[–]thamayorLibertarian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think this list should also include how he has also been the best gun salesman (and ammo).

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Maybe he was a Republican plant.

[–]SamusTsungRetroGamer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

WOW. And this is MSNBC, of all places, reporting this? I'm stunned.

[–]CuckleberryFinnIV [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Reeeeee! Its a coincidence, this election has nothing to do with Obama and his policies!!!

People wouldnt lie to pollsters in fear of being called racist!!!!

Trump supporters are racist!! Reeeeeeeeeee!!!!

[–]SlamBlue [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

But now Im able to use the women's restroom so suck on that Republicans

[–]dawen_shawpuh [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Best part about this is Liberals are making this a racial thing. How it's an lash out from white people.... it's always the white peoples fault

[–]timmyjj2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Racial politics didn't work last time, but it has to work this time!

[–]nightof96 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

One of the worst presidents America has had

[–]kevinS- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

the democratic party may actually be dissolved in your youth

I DONT WANNA GET OFF MR TRUMPS WILD RIDE

[–]polu85 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

This is a silly post, he's leaving office with one of the highest approval ratings in history.

[–]Jer_061 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

But are the people that poll his approval ratings the same pollsters that told us that Clinton would win the White House?

If this election taught us anything, it should be to take polls with a grain of salt.

[–]clayestes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well some people actually approve of him, not because of his policies or what he has done, just because he talks smooth....

[–]polu85 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Ha good point. I assumed all approval ratings would be considered equal regardless of who's in office. It wouldn't surprise me though, Obama got huge voting numbers, and even Hillary as terrible a candidate as she is won the majority vote and barely lost some of the electoral colleges. I'm not a fan of Obama's policies, but the man is one of the more talented politicians in the last 20 yrs on either side. His legacy will be simple: the first black President of the US.

[–]EightyG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Maybe he could get some wins by Executive Ordering them in the few days he has left? /s

[–]JakersIreland [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Honestly don't think this is on Obama, I'd put it on Clinton and the DNC

[–]Lepew1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Mmm...MMmm...Mmmm Barrack Hussein Obama

[–]NakedAndBehindYou [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Now Republicans need to actually get shit done or in 4 years they will be the ones with massive losses due to disappointed voters.

[–]warkin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The legacy of Barrack "my son would look like Trayvon" Obama will be the culmination and conclusion of the civil rights era. He has shown that multiculturalism doesn't work, and that ethnic allegiance trumps flimsy ideology. He showed up just in time to give us a vision of leftist hegemony, and for that, we can say without irony, thanks Obama.

[–]PM_me_Venn_diagrams [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, if you dont like him, you can feel free to pay back all the welfare you and your family have used.