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Crusader-era hand grenade found in Israel (thevintagenews.com)

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[–]creeschChief Technologist, Fleet Admiral[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (0子コメント)

For those that are wondering why this thread is locked, it is because even after a warning a lot of people still fancy themselves quite the comedian. We'd like to clarify that we don't mind a joke from time to time, but once a stream of identical jokes comes streaming in it rather detracts from discussion of the actual topic.

So in short, the thread is locked because people are too lazy to see if a joke already has been made and can't read sticky comments from mods asking to maybe not make the joke that already has been made a few dozen times.

Thank you.

[–]Joshwright111[S] 464ポイント465ポイント  (4子コメント)

Handed in by a man who worked at a power station in northern Israel, a Greek Fire grenade likely used in naval battles. Looks really cool too.

[–]musedav 168ポイント169ポイント  (3子コメント)

Woah, it's a greek fire grenade? The article says it was filled with naptha, but I had thought we still don't know how the greeks produced it.

[–]digitalwolverine 95ポイント96ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's been a lot of research done on the subject, and Naphtha is the current popular theory for Greek fire (it is a naturally occurring substance in the area). But, it's still just a theory.

[–]moriartyj 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

naphtha is one of the leading theories

[–]multiple_iterations 1230ポイント1231ポイント  (144子コメント)

Hasn't the recipe for Greek fire been lost to the ages? Wouldn't that be a spectacular find?

[–]Truthmobiles 558ポイント559ポイント  (13子コメント)

That was my first thought. Between the discovery of Greek fire or a lazy journalist, I would assume the latter.

[–]Cdnprogressive 454ポイント455ポイント  (29子コメント)

Right? I went in thinking "ancient grenade, cool" and then read "Greek fire" and thought well this can't be what it says it is because the Greek fire sitting inside the grenade is the real find here and any historian would jump right on it if this were true, so I don't know what to think about it.

[–]Fleetwood_Yak 234ポイント235ポイント  (1子コメント)

the grenade is the real find here and any historian would jump right on it

Greater love hath no academic discipline.

[–]DemonicSquid 52ポイント53ポイント  (0子コメント)

Run everyone, take cover, save your PhDs!

[–]StarshipBooper 103ポイント104ポイント  (20子コメント)

Picturing a bunch of historians jumping onto grenades now 😨

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    [–]Widget88 170ポイント171ポイント  (18子コメント)

    I think it's saying that a normal "grenade" WOULD HAVE been filled with Greek fire. I would guess the seal has broken on this one and it's probably just filled with gunk now.

    [–]LovecraftInDC 154ポイント155ポイント  (15子コメント)

    There's still a good chance they could get some evidence of it from what's still in the canister. They've done this with some beer formulas, I know.

    [–]WingedLady 99ポイント100ポイント  (14子コメント)

    Ah yes, the Dogfish Head Ancient Ales. Very good beers.

    [–]scotscott 29ポイント30ポイント  (12子コメント)

    This is a thing?

    [–]FUBAR_Inc 95ポイント96ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Dogfish Head Ancient Ales

    Yes, its actually very interesting. They collaborate with an expert on ancient bevereges and recreate old beers

    [–]theonewhocucks 35ポイント36ポイント  (6子コメント)

    So basically if you want to drink like a proper lad in his majesty's glorious empire, drink dogfish?

    [–]jaysalos 105ポイント106ポイント  (0子コメント)

    More like if you want to drink like a proper lad in Hammurabis empire

    [–]Borthwick 49ポイント50ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Try the Midas Touch, if they still brew it. It's a recovered Greek recipe thats really different.

    [–]WingedLady 46ポイント47ポイント  (1子コメント)

    They still make it. It's got a lot of grape must flavors. Kinda like a very malty wine. Oh, and I think they work with bioarchaeologists to recreate the recipes by analyzing residues in jars. My personal favorite is Etrusca. Ta Henket is also good.

    [–]EllaPB 33ポイント34ポイント  (0子コメント)

    bioarchaeologists

    I think I missed my calling in life

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      [–]hansolo2843 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Yes. Ancient bottles have been found with residue of the beer they held. Modern breweries have been able to recreate the exact recipe to produce an exact replica. More: http://www.totalwine.com/beer-guide/ancient-ales

      http://shop.dogfish.com/ancientales

      [–]TheJollyLlama875 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Not exact, though - a lot of varietals used, for instance, don't exist any more.

      [–]gh0stwheel 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yup!

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          [–]t4p2016 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Could they test for traces of compounds in the grenade or is that not possible?

          [–]SeattleBattles 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I would think that nothing would be left after 1,000 years of exposure to the sea. They also may not have filled them until they were ready to use.

          [–]wrathofoprah 51ポイント52ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Hasn't the recipe for Greek fire been lost to the ages?

          The Knights of St John used it in various forms at the Siege of Malta in 1565.

          They called it "wildfire", and used it in grenade-type bombs and a flame-thrower type projector called a Trump. They had other various gunpowder type weapons (things similar to Chinese fire spears) and conventional cannons, along with some other improvised fire weapons. They used them to devastating effect to literally cook Jannisaries trying to scale the walls.

          [–]JustGens 113ポイント114ポイント  (30子コメント)

          I thought greek fire was just crude oil

          [–]multiple_iterations 261ポイント262ポイント  (19子コメント)

          As I understand it, whatever formula it was, it was like napalm, would burn under water, and burned for an incredibly long time, virtually guaranteeing anything flammable would catch. But I have no sources, and I'd love to hear from someone much better informed.

          [–]Soviet_water 331ポイント332ポイント  (16子コメント)

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNP50Cdkqs

          This is a pretty interesting video about it. This guy tries to recreate the formula based upon our historical knowledge.

          Edit: I wish I had this GPA in college...

          [–]multiple_iterations 134ポイント135ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Dude, A+. Thanks for the link!

          [–]thatClarkguy 109ポイント110ポイント  (5子コメント)

          I only watched it because u/multiple_iterations gave you an A+ I'm glad I did.

          [–]mrsaturdaypants 49ポイント50ポイント  (4子コメント)

          I only watched because u/thatClarkguy gave the shout out to u/multiple-iterations's A+.

          [–]sir_ramen 86ポイント87ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Now I will watch it. It has been peer reviewed, and has been found worthy.

          [–]Strapcityclick 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I give you a B++ for your acknowledgement of said shout outs

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            [–]Thepowersss 49ポイント50ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I watched this because the two people above me said it was A+. can confirm, is A+

            [–]CNoTe820 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I like how he kept saying "nobody has used one of these in anger in over 500 years".

            [–]Soloman212 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

            For my curve I'm normalizing the scores and setting an average grade to 85, and with that this video scores a 98, which on my scale is an A+.

            [–]laxpanther 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Hold my report card, I'm going in.

            Edit, that was an enjoyable 8 minutes with a good payoff at the end.

            [–]StopWhiningScrub 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

            So did you make hands and not watch the video?

            [–]laxpanther 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Most of the eight minutes is spent finding the right video.

            [–]DustyMunk 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm going to watch it later.

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              [–]explosiveschemist 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

              It has been suggested that lime (calcium hydroxide) might have been one component. Once water is introduced, a great deal of heat is generated, possibly enough for autoignition of a hydrocarbon carrier such as naphtha.

              [–]9boi 27ポイント28ポイント  (5子コメント)

              I heard it was like napalm

              [–]grubas 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It was a mixture of a bunch of things. Basically it was like napalm but with a few additions. Napalm can be crudely made by pretty much anyone. There are rumors that they had things that would react with water so it still burned, was intensely hot and other historians say that they used plants or plant matter that either is extinct or that we don't know how to process.

              [–]Arcosim 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Can't be crude oil, crude oil is too thick and dense to be fired at 30+ feet using the cheirosiphon (Greek fire launcher). These were hand pumped and two men were able to operate them.

              [–]adjust_madi 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

              So how did they fire a liquid steadily to a distance of 30f?

              [–]Arcosim 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It was a siphoning mechanism. They pumped air into a compression chamber by hand and then when they had enough compressed air they opened a valve which released the compound pushed by the compressed air bellow it. This guy built a working replica.

              [–]SerMerynTrance 31ポイント32ポイント  (4子コメント)

              I don't get it. If a 13th century weapon was using Greek fire, how do we not have a written record of how to make it?

              [–]AzekZero 98ポイント99ポイント  (1子コメント)

              It was a state secret of Constantinople. The Roman state deliberately obfuscated the technology to keep it out of the hands of their enemies.

              A user on r/askhistorians mentioned no one person had an understanding of the entire manufacturing process as a security measure. If true, this would've made it difficult for a rival state to reconstruct it even right after the demise of the empire.*

              *I went back to the post I was referring to, there's no mention of this. If I read the above tidbit in a different place, I've been unable to find the source.

              [–]Highcalibur10 59ポイント60ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Like an old school Manhattan Project.

              [–]qqgn 61ポイント62ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Due to its military value the recipe was probably closely-guarded; most likely rarely, if ever, committed to paper.

              [–]monsieurpommefrites 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

              how do we not have a written record of how to make it?

              The writing material unfortunately lent itself quite well to combustibility.

              [–]evanbyrne 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The exact recipe will not be known unless they can find a sample which can be dated to the period, but there are plausible hypotheses. I wish people would Google before embarking on this comment train for the bazillionth time. It is not that mysterious guys!

              [–]Constablegarden 127ポイント128ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Behold the holy hand grenade of Antioch

              [–]rockythecocky 37ポイント38ポイント  (21子コメント)

              Its just the recipe that has been lost. We know how to make similar end products, just not how THEY made the product. It would be like losing the Coca-Cola recipe and then finding a bottle of coke. Just because we have the end result doesn't mean we know the Coca-Cola secret recipe.

              [–]Devildude4427 67ポイント68ポイント  (10子コメント)

              Not quite. It would be like losing the Coca Cola recipe, and making something that refreshes us and tastes similar to the notes left behind, but we don't know how our replacement tastes comparatively. We have compounds that act similar to Greek fire, but we don't know what it was actually made of or how it burned. We just have notes on it.

              [–]ilovepumpkin 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Heh, this means if we ever do figure out how to make Greek fire, that we may be left disappointed given what we have today.

              [–]saxophonemississippi 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

              "that refreshes us"

              Haha you sound like an ad

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                [–]Thatlawnguy 37ポイント38ポイント  (9子コメント)

                Guarantee, with a mass spectrometer and time, the formula could be reverse engineered.

                [–]Zuwxiv 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

                You have a glass that's 10% salt and 90% water.

                • Did I add 1 part salt to 9 parts water?

                • Or did I take salt water that was already 5% salt, and add extra salt?

                [–]Thatlawnguy 34ポイント35ポイント  (7子コメント)

                Bad analogy, at the end of the day your example only has 2 ingredients. Who cares where they come from. The 2 ingredients can be determined and the solution could be replicated.

                [–]sidepart 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

                Different example related to music. We have the sheet music, but the composer never wrote down any tempo. ...so how did it really sound?

                [–]Thatlawnguy 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

                A mass spectrometer couldn't tell you that.

                [–]sidepart 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Hell nah, but in the same vein, a mass spectrometer can't tell you how long a cake was baked for. Or that to get the appropriate tenderness of the crumb, you have to combine the wet ingredients first and slowly add the dry ones. The point is that just knowing the ingredients isn't always enough.

                The salt water thing I totally agree wasn't a great analogy. When you just have salt and water...doesn't exactly matter how you got there.

                [–]DaSaw 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Could a mass spectrometer tell you why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

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                    [–]KittyCone 5ポイント6ポイント  (15子コメント)

                    Isn't Napalm basically Greek Fire?

                    [–]SeattleBattles 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Napalm requires gasoline, and while the Byzantines had access to petroleum, there is no evidence they had developed that level of refining.

                    However, it is likely that Greek Fire involved petroleum and it was 'sticky' like napalm so the two are potentially similar.

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                      [–]duty_on_urFace 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I'm sure this had nothing to do with the name of wild fire in GoT

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                        [–]fucktard9901 291ポイント292ポイント  (12子コメント)

                        Why is everything from history always beautifully embossed, even destructible objects like this? Did people just have endless time on their hands?

                        [–]Mickybagabeers 234ポイント235ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        They didn't have things like reddit and youtube to drain the days time like we do now. I bet after a day Crusading they would light a candle and decorate their things.

                        [–]toughguy375 68ポイント69ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Good point. Like the snail-shell canteen from the revenant.

                        [–]castlecrasher2 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Yeah, lots of clay or whatever to house the rare, explodey bits means ornate housing.

                        [–]SuperSamoset 155ポイント156ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Well they certainly didn't have reddit, that's for sure!

                        Also, prolly a little survivor bias going on. "Hey let's use the fancy one only as a last resort."

                        [–]Shimme 70ポイント71ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Like SuperSamoset said, survivorship bias. They used the normal boring ones all the time, but would have taken care of the fancy decorative ones. It's the same reason you see lots of fancy ceremonial armor/weapons but comparitively few ordinary/boring ones survive to this day.

                        [–]ThisIsntGoldWorthy 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        That doesn't look that hard to do, to be quite honest. Once you have a U-shaped wedge, you just wedge it in a bunch of times.

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                          [–]theholylancer 247ポイント248ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          battlefield 1400s here we go boys

                          and somehow there will be automatic crossbows and experimental automatic muskets

                          [–]leftabitcharlie 120ポイント121ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Battlefield 1453: Istanbul not Constantinople

                          [–]Thjoth 29ポイント30ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Well, repeating muskets were a thing. Just not quite that early.

                          [–]TheSuperSeanyo 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          So...Battlefield: French Revolution?

                          Honestly if we're gonna go all the way with this back in time stuff we might as well make it Battlefield: Seven Years' War.

                          [–]Keric 62ポイント63ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Any news as to whether or not liquid is still sealed inside?

                          [–]chavz25 72ポイント73ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          These things aren't that rare... Apparently they are found a lot in the middle East. My archeology prof does a lot of work in Jordan and talked about them a few weeks ago. The most likely hypothesis of what they are grenades/Greek fire, used for shisha, or other decorative pieces.

                          [–]reunitedsune 44ポイント45ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          How did these things ignite? Or did they throw them and try to hit the Greek fire with flaming arrows or something?

                          [–]Zuwxiv 75ポイント76ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          Interestingly, flaming arrows really don't work that well. Anything shot on a bow will quickly extinguish, unless you have a big and heavy fuel source on it. That reduces range.

                          Siege weapons could certainly use flaming projectiles, and while I'm not saying it's never been done, Hollywood certainly loves their flaming arrows more than ancient armies did.

                          Back to the point - a flaming wick would work well. Of course, like most ranged weapons, it's best to employ them en masse. I'm sure some might break open without igniting, and eventually be ignited by other means. But if you could have a wick, that would be ideal. I suppose it never hurts to coat your enemy in something sticky, irritating to the eyes, and flammable.

                          [–]hezdokwow 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Wait a minute, I distincly remember reading Julius Ceaser has archers dip the arrow heads of their bows into a type of mixture in order for them to stay burning as they shot?

                          [–]Zuwxiv 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          There was some cases, yes! You could use a pitch-soaked rag, or things of the sort. It wasn't unknown to ancient armies, it was more the logistics of the issue. Fire arrows needed more equipment, care when firing, made arrows heavier, and reduced range and accuracy.

                          There are a number of Roman sources that reference it, and a quick review suggests that the authors weren't particularly unfamiliar with the strategy. It seems like the use was noteworthy, though. In other words: Rare, but not unknown.

                          It certainly happened in sieges. It's just that most times, allowing archers to fire more quickly at longer range and greater accuracy was more useful than a small fire here or there.

                          [–]willun 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Well there was this at 4:45

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                            [–]Krihible 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Calling that a "crusader-era" hand grenade is somewhat bad. The Crusades occurred over several centuries and while it's not wrong, it is not particularly specific. Was it a grenade from the 1st crusade or the 5th? Military technology changed a lot during this time.

                            [–]colinroberts 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            You can buy these things on the international antiquities market for like 100 - 200 EUR a piece, which is pennies compared to everything else. It's basically just like the shitty roman bronze coin on ebay of the antiquities market.

                            [–]LineChef[🍰] 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            A Molotov what now? Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick..

                            [–]TheLionoftheEast 27ポイント28ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            I'm sorry as Im pretty sure that I'm wrong, but is Antioch part of modern day Israel?

                            (this has nothing to do with Monty python I swear mods don't hurt me)

                            [–]JoeyLock 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            It looks more like a giant ancient Jewish Dreidel.

                            [–]ComradeRoe 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            But Dreidel's aren't round all the way up and down...

                            Looks more someone felt like casting an iron strawberry to me.

                            [–]DiggDejected[M] 633ポイント634ポイント  (86子コメント)

                            Please do not pluck the low-hanging fruit of Monty Python. It is off-topic, and not original.

                            [–]God_Damnit_Nappa 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Looks like you have some maintenance to do then

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                              [–]n0rpie 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Any confirmation that's not on a ad-filled clickbait site?

                              [–]nysom1227 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Fascinating stuff. I could see why a weapon like this would be effective in naval battles during that time period, especially considering the fact all the ships were made of wood. I mean, you throw a few of those at an enemy vessel and it could easily become engulfed in flames.

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