全 140 件のコメント

[–]sarduchi 91ポイント92ポイント  (8子コメント)

I prefer my bigots out and proud, so I know who not to have a beer with.

[–]heisdeadjim_au 25ポイント26ポイント  (5子コメント)

This. Banning holocaust denial makes them "issue martyrs". As in "Oh look I must be telling the truth as they're bannine me!"

I'd prefer hatred and bigotry gets aired so we can find out who the hatemongers are and excoriorate them.

[–]victory_zero 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

Problem is, even more ppl will start thinking "so, since we can freely push this agenda, it must mean that it's legitimate". Also, ultra right wings will gain momentum and "validation", and once they do, they'll start spewing more shit.

So, in the end, I'd rather have this banned.

Also, example. Russia, a loooot of Russians (still Soviets at heart, really) praise Stalin, deny the attrocities of communism, whitewash Russian/Soviet history - simply because Russia has no laws against that. Effectively, Russians are working hard to falsify the history. E.g. Stalin was hard, but effective - not paranoid, bloodthirsty maniac bent on killing his own people. War was brutal and the millions that died were German caualties - not the victims of holodomor, the gulags, secret police. Katyn was the job of Germans - not us, the good revolutionists.

tl;dr - unfortunately, history has to be protected in such ways sometimes

[–]heisdeadjim_au 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Valid point. The thing is it works the same way, in the negative of that.

[–]victory_zero 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It does, unfortunately. Part of the problem is that freedom of speech is the same thing is free market. It just doesn't exist. It is influenced and regulated by ppl in power, ppl with money.

Look at Poland (yeah, my homeland) - with right wing in power, the state TV news is a pile of steaming crap, to the point where even the right-winger can't watch without nausea. Lies, propaganda, hand-picked "news" - bullshit all around. It's not Russia-level bad, but they're working hard on getting there.

[–]heisdeadjim_au 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hope you don't mind if I say I'm genuinely sorry?

I'm Australian and I live in political luxury. I honour your strength.

[–]victory_zero 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks. It does suck, especially that Poland has really improved (socially and economically) in the last dozen (or perhaps 20?) years. We still have a long way to go, we still struggle in lots of areas, but at least the direction was right. Unfortunately, our political class (class? really?) is shit, our democracy is immature and a lot of people are just fucking plain stupid. But we'll pull through :)

[–]House_Badger 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Silly to imprison someone for his thoughts.

[–]tobiderfisch 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

You won't get prosecuted for thinking this but rather for spouting it out in public. There is a large difference between those two.

[–]stainslemountaintops 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doing the nazi salute is also illegal in Germany and Austria. So don't do it, even if you're just "trying to be funny", it can actually have severe consequences.

[–]tobiderfisch 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

What people in this thread fail to realize is that it is not illegal to believe this sort of crap but to spread it in public. In Germany, for example, people decided to limit free speech to protect minorities and stop the spread of Nazism and hate speech. Holocaust denial is also included by this.

I understand that many people believe that free speech is a basic human right and limiting it can be very easily abused. I totally agree with that. However, considering this region's history and what is currently happening in the US with the recent election, I believe this is a very appropriate and necessary law. There is a very big difference between having a Nazi flag in your bedroom and waving it around in public.

[–]preemptivebanana 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's foolish to deny that the Holocaust occurred but I don't think it should be illegal, unless, of course, that doing somehow causes others severe harm.

[–]tobiderfisch 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

The thing that many people fail to realize is that it's illegal to spread these things in public, not to believe them. There is a large difference between denying the Holocaust and spouting that crap in public.

[–]OyVeyzMeir [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Illegal to teach that the holocaust never happened and to publicly disseminate that assertion as fact to be precise. Even discussion isn't illegal.

[–]Rhaegarion 29ポイント30ポイント  (7子コメント)

ITT: Americans who's country has never been ravaged by war telling Europeans what laws they should have. Does US arrogance have any limits?

[–]saltyholty 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's absurd.

We're a couple of generations removed from widespread Nazism and fascism that controlled the majority of Europe. Where do they think all the Nationalists went? They didn't all move to South America.

[–]Turd_City_Auto_Group [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Doesn't matter one single bit. The fact you cannot say something (apart from a physical threat) is a JOKE. And I'm not American. The fact anyone cannot shout from the rooftops "the Hall of Cost never happened" is ridiculous.

[–]LaLongueCarabine 46ポイント47ポイント  (14子コメント)

Seems strangely totalitarian

[–]critfist 30ポイント31ポイント  (8子コメント)

Considering the history of the area it seems more than appropriate.

[–]Turd_City_Auto_Group [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So, where do you draw the line? To ban statements that are not actual threats is utterly ridiculous. What a joke. I hate Nazis and neo-Nazis, too. Doesn't mean I should be prevented from saying exactly what I think.

[–]Plugawy_Nedznik -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's like a shoe, for a horse

[–]GarrusAtreides 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Karl Popper wrote about something called the "paradox of tolerance" that seems pretty relevant here:

The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

He does have a point. Weimar Germany tried being tolerant with the Nazis, and that ended with the Nazi seizure of power and the end of tolerance for anyone and everyone.

[–]OyVeyzMeir [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He does have a point. Weimar Germany tried being tolerant with the Nazis, and that ended with the Nazi seizure of power and the end of tolerance for anyone and everyone.

...So pretty much many US universities at this point.

[–]Dr_McKay 14ポイント15ポイント  (7子コメント)

Just let the deniers be out in public about it so their "evidence" can be debunked. Forcing it underground doesn't do any good.

[–]critfist 44ポイント45ポイント  (4子コメント)

Except as we've seen countless time you could tell a lie in public, have people say it's a lie and still have scores of people believe it.

[–]Liv4LttlSerialKillrs 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Insert obligatory anti-Trump post here.

[–]thenormalaccount -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah exactly people heard anti-Trump posts over and over and they started believing them...

[–]Spudtron98 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And much like the holocaust, there is actual, verifiable proof of Donald’s horseshit, right out of his mouth.

[–]Formshifter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No thanks, let's keep them shamed and quiet

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are enough people in this world who will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter the truth and no matter the evidence. See: Climate change denial; vaccinations causing autism; anti-GMO woo; Soviet apologia etc.

If not for the massive taboo against anything to do with Nazism (in the liberal West), I could easily see people buying into Holocaust denial.

[–]caiaphas8 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

So many Americans whining about free speech without thinking that maybe holocaust denial laws are a good thing in countries where the nazis existed and committed genocide might be a good idea, and another thing not every country has the same laws and beliefs as America, freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence from your actions

[–]OyVeyzMeir [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

...Or they could be Canadians, Brits, French, etc. Why's it always Americans?

[–]Calber4 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wow, if I ever want to apply for a holocaust I know where to go now.

[–]TLDRonin[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

What does this even mean?

[–]HookedOnPhoenix_ -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can we do the same thing with climate change deniers?

[–]georgia_cracka 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

and there is the slippery slope that we worry about when we start banning any form of speech.

[–]MineDogger 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Too specific. Makes it seem like a racist political agenda or historical revision. Will they prosecute a Holocaust survivor that disputes the numbers? How does such a law get made?

[–]TLDRonin[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you even read anything about this?

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews and other groups in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] Holocaust denial often includes the following claims: that Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, but that it did not include the extermination of Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and/or that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million

[–]n0vast0rm 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for this, as someone who indeed never read anything about this i was afraid not giving a crap might be illegal.

[–]Voyack 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Free speech…

[–]Tbsc_ 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not america... Seriously, America isn't the entire world.

[–]Thedragonking444 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is fucking awful and blatantly anti-free speech. Yeah Holocaust denial is bad and people who don't believe that the Holocaust happened are idiots, but they have the right to believe whatever the fuck they want, no matter how dumb or insensitive.

[–]solzhe 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah Holocaust denial is bad and people who don't believe that the Holocaust happened are idiots, but they have the right to believe whatever the fuck they want, no matter how dumb or insensitive.

Yes, they have the right to believe anything, but not the right to talk publicly about it

[–]Wahngrok 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You even have the right to talk about that you don't believe it. You can also try to argue the facts. What you can't do is just outright deny that it happened.

[–]DoelerichHirnfidler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's not true. An Austrian lawyer who defended a Holocaust denier only recently got charged himself because he said that "it is uncertain if gas chambers really existed in KZ <xy> [...]" in one of his defense statements.

[–]Ecclesia_Andune 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems odd to me, if things happened just exactly how you said it did, why do you need to ban discussion/scepticism about it? Literally the only reason we have accurate information on any historical event is by allowing discussion and contrasting ideas/theories on it until various groups come to somewhat of a consensus

When we're banned from discussing something I automatically assume it's because there's something to hide

[–]castizo -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

When I go back to Hungary, I'm going to test this silly law.

[–]myshoescramp 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do it at a police station or court house if you want to really put it to the test, because if you just do it in the streets then people might not care or even know it's illegal and that they should call the cops.

[–]baronmad -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is self defeating, the only thing you do is so that these people hide away, so they arent shown the evidence of the holocaust actually happend. You arent solving the problem you are making it worse.

[–]Turd_City_Auto_Group -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What a fucking joke.