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Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?
62 points by tigertheory 6 hours ago | hide | past | web | 102 comments | favorite
I have an MBA from a top 3 school and have a high-paying job as a PM at a top 3 tech company. But I don't feel like I am building tangible skills as a PM, it is more about project management and coordinating. I think about the future and get excited about technology and the types of things you can build and contribute to if you know how to code (e.g. block chain, deep learning, etc.). I have a feeling tremendous opportunity will be available over the next 10 years to software developers while other disciplines such as management become less and less important. Am I crazy to make this career switch?





Yes you are. I'm a PM and researched this decision myself a few months back. Most of the "well regarded" bootcamps teach basic front skills (HTML/CSS/JS). You're going to struggle to get a job in any of the the exciting technologies you've listed with this skillset. It's also not widely talked about, but I get the sense that there's a bit of negative signal associated with these boot camps a la ITT/University of Phoenix. I'm not saying this is justified, but I do believe the association is there.

I think your general premise (that management is becoming less relevant) is true, but you're approaching the problem incorrectly.

If I had your goalset, I would cram hard on EdX, OpenCourseware, etc. You need a good first principles education starting with Algorithms, Data structures, etc. I'd also start to learn how to do SWE interviews, which are a whole other skill set.

One last note: even if you do all of the above, the best way to ensure you're working with cool technologies is to start your own company. I work for a major SF tech company, and our ML team is two orders of magnitude smaller than our monetization team. At the end of the day, companies exist to make money and a lot of the stuff you've highlighted is currently speculative/nascent. There's just not going to be many jobs until these technologies prove their financial value.


Yes very crazy. I have a anecdotal survey of all coders I know: most of whom all graduated from only median Tier-2 US & News Report Ranked Nat'l Universities (>15) and whom have on average, earn only median Fortune Magazine's Best Jobs annual ranked salaries as Application Developer, and only very few employed by Forbes' Most Admired Companies list or who are on the Mattermark's Top 100 Startup Index.

Most don't feel like they're building lasting career skills, as agism persists in the industry and most people work on web applications to satisfy enterprise project business specification and project managers. During lunch, I hear conversations about the future of technology and the type of technology that we can work on if we only quit to start or work for a cool start up (e.g., Tesla, SpaceX). The consensus is that there is a tremendous opportunity for these emerging technology area's while other disciplines such as closing JIRA tickets will become marginalized. So I'd advise you to stay away from the enterprise coding bootcamps and only apply for the specialized tech bootcamp that emphasizes on these emerging technologies. The few that come to the mind are, creating new cryptocurrency payment models (for Paypal), writing self-driving cars hardware/software (for Tesla) and harnessing deep/learning AI (for Google DeepMind).


If you're interested in working with cool tech like blockchain and AI, but are tired of startup culture, a good option might be one of the "Digital Innovation Lab" organizations that more traditional companies are putting together. I just started working for one, and it's pretty great - I have stability, sane hours, solid compensation, and a healthy culture, but I also get to work with a bunch of really smart people on cool technologies.

> such as closing JIRA tickets

I'm not a big fan of JIRA myself, but even cool startups need to use an issue tracker?


No, cool startups don't have any code issues, so there's nothing to track.

>> # Elixir + Phoenix is the future -- Python/Ruby/Java are too mainstream for us

>> vi main.ex

>> # No tests needed thanks to BEAM ;)

>> git add -A

>> # No need for descriptive commit messages; we spend our time on the important stuff ;)

>> git commit -m 'New commit'

>> # Rockstars push straight to production

>> git push origin master

Am I doing this right?? /s


Don't forget to git push --force to resolve conflicts!

As an elixir dev the "no test needed" hurt. As someone that had to deal with explaining why VCS is important it burns.

But elixir does not have main file so it is ok :p


> Yes very crazy.

I conditionally disagree.

If the OP chose to do this, they should fully commit to it as if there is no other way if they want to succeed.

But, if the OP thinks they are crazy (and they definitely have doubts if they posted this here), they should indeed immediately take responsibility to hire a replacement and start interviewing elsewhere, hopefully in such a way that it will limit CV damage.


I don't think this is entirely accurate. Yes, enterprise coding can be really boring and mundane, but just as often it can be interesting and challenging and involve new technologies. As an entry level programmer, sure, you'll do Jira tickets and HTML fixes, but once you get just a touch of seniority, depending on the organization, you can get some neat opportunities.

Lots of enterprise coders are tasked with evaluating new technology, working on greenfields experiments, like building a Hadoop cluster or starting out an OpenStack test deployment. Other times, there are extremely specialized jobs in enterprises. I have some friends who write Erlang in enterprises, and they go home at 5, don't find the work too stressful, and have plenty of interesting problems to solve.

Yes, there's a lot of great tech to play with out there. You can do that on your own time as much as you can do that at an enterprise. Yeah, startups might be more inclined to work with this stuff, but they're also just as inclined to make a big tech mistake and end up 1 year down the wrong road.

Finally, I am not a fan of bootcamps to learn to code. I think they're fine to get you started, but I doubt you can actually make a real career out of just a boot camp. You'll need experience and a lot more real-world time to learn how things work when you're developing software with a dozen other people at the same time. It's a lot more complicated than just knowing how to write functions and use git.

Everyone I know who did a coding bootcamp and got a job, got a job doing the absolute most basic stuff imaginable: bug reports, bug fixes, testing, etc. There's a lot of stuff you won't learn at the bootcamp that needs to be done in an enterprise: compliance and governance work, requirements gathering, documentation development, CI/CD concerns, how to build and tweak a delivery pipeline, deployment stuff, provisioning stuff. There's a ton to learn in enterprise software development, and learning how to whip out a program in Ruby or JavaScript won't adequately prepare you. It may get your foot in the door, but expect another 2 years of working there before you'll be truly ready for a promotion or better job.

And, yes, ageism is a thing, but the absolute best programmers in the world tend to be over 50. They may not know JavaScript, but they can write an entire OS in assembly, and they tend to understand the hardware/software stack down to the bit. Old coders are absolutely incredible and wise. Anyone who is ageist in the valley against coders is really fucking themselves over.

I think the best bet for you is to do the coding boot camp, then go back to being a PM. Knowing how to actually write software is probably the most valuable skill a software dev PM can have: it'll make it a lot easier to understand why everything takes so damn long. It'll also make you much more appealing to a Google or a Facebook.


I'm going to disagree with the bootcamp grads don't do interesting work. My company employees a couple bootcamp grads including myself. All of them work on what are considered the most critical teams in our company. I work on search, which has some of the best engineers in our company. I will be working on elastic search, building our first angular 2 app, and I might even get a little exposure to machine learning / nlp.

I also extremely disagree with the do a bootcamp and then go back to a pm. You will have wasted a lot of money and will definitely not absorb much. We have bootcamp grads who have done that and they forget everything they learned. You need at least a year of professional experience to really get any meaningful knowledge. Not recommended.


Yes, you're crazy. Keep your high paying job. Learn computer science on the side.

The really interesting stuff usually requires deeper knowledge and skills. For problems worth solving, 15 years experience as a CRUD developer is no better than 15 years experience as a project manager. Making this career change won't necessarily help you gain the skills you want.


This is what I was going to say as well. Don't jump into "boot camp", start taking night classes at your local community college (or if you have flexible hours) day classes. Even MOOC/online classes during the evenings will be a path to adding coding skills to your resume.

Finding problems and learning how to solve them with a tool you want to learn is a pretty powerful method (IMHO).

A coding bootcamp is fine, but it won't get you much closer to doing block chain or deep learning work.

The analogy is you wouldn't necessarily take the Olive Garden line cook training class if you wanted to be a French chef. Sure, it won't hurt to learn how to use a knife and it might be a decent Step 0, but it won't get you much of the way towards your goal.

You should really consider a more in-depth CS education, whether that's through a traditional university or something like a Coursera / Udacity nano degree in your areas of interest.

As a practical matter, it might be better to stay employed while you pursue that. But that's up to you. Plan on spending some significant time learning (1-2 years at least) before you can do what you want, not just a few weeks.

You're very smart to consider getting into something like deep learning. The opportunities will be good over the next 10 years like you said - but only for those who are really good at it. It's a very technical field that requires lots of continuing learning. The competition for the best jobs is high. Don't get into coding unless you are very excited about it and willing to invest in learning it for the rest of your life.

If you are excited about coding and willing to put years of learning into it, go for it! But otherwise you could take the impressive skills you already have and find a way to reinvent yourself and apply them in the deep learning industry without becoming the actual coder yourself.


My uninformed opinion on bootcamps here is that they are probably a good way to learn about finishing a project (something which CS is poor at). Deep learning or blockchains are cool, but if you can't finish something then you aren't going to make something cool (even just cool to you), and without that it's hard to keep going with self-learning.

You're not crazy but your math is wrong.

Calculate the opportunity cost of doing this in dollars. That cost is REAL.

People seem to think opportunity cost is an abstract concept. It isn't. Your retirement and your personal situation will be less $Oppurtunity cost.

Other false assumptions I see in your thinking:

1. Underestimating the difference in competition in engineering versus PM

2. Large error in the number of years of low beginner status in programming

3. Your personality as a PM puts you at a disadvantage when trying to get technical buy in from other engineers

Investigate other paths:

1. Study on the side.

(If you can't do this for 6 months, you won't be able to sustain it full time either.)

2. After Work 1-on-1 face to face engineering coaching

Use the money you make now to have a full time tutor who sits right next to you (I.e. they only have 1 student and thats you and you sit side by side and code) after work. I think this is a much cheaper and much more effective way to learn that isn't available even at bootcamps. You keep your optionality but you also learn more/faster than at a bootcamp.

(Ping me - I'll do it for $150/hour. :)


As someone who has had several 'crazy' career moves over the years, it may well be crazy to do it, and yet still be the right thing to do for you. I think the best way to do this would be to keep working, but to study part-time with Udacity. Continuing to work in a good tech company gives you a big advantage in that your "professional network" (aka "people you know") contains a lot of smart developers, a small number of whom may have made similar career moves. It would be worth asking around in person or on your internal work chat groups etc to see if anyone has experience with Udacity courses, then meet up for a coffee and a chat. Don't say you want to change jobs, just start by saying you want to understand better what developers do, and that's why you want to learn to code. That makes you a more valuable PM, while at the same time you are building the skills that would let you make a career change.

As you learn more, you should keep in touch with those devs, and you can ask them for feedback on the projects you work on (clearly, the onus is on you to not abuse their time, but most people like to help someone who is hardworking, enthusiastic and respectful). Then, by the time you've developed your skills to the point you could take an entry level developer position, you will also have a bunch of developers in the company who know you, know how hard you've been working, and will often be willing to pass on knowledge of openings, and put in a good word for you in the hiring process. Also, don't ignore the possibility of joining a startup once you have sufficient technical skills, a growing startup is exactly the kind of place that would greatly benefit from someone who understands team and project management and can deliver good code. They will hire you for the technical skills, not the PM skills, but that doesn't take away their value. Email me if you'd like to discuss further, and best of luck!


Quitting your job isn't the problem. It's takes courage to do what you do. The problem is coding boot camps. They promise things they can't deliver. As a programmer I can tell you all the things you learn in those three months can be learn from any beginner textbook you download from amazon. $50 versus $10,000.

Some of the problems I deal with in programming can take months of thinking to solve and any course that says yo can become a professional programmer in three months is a joke. What happens when you stumble a problem that doesn't have a ready made answer for you or you encounter a bug take days to discover.

If you want to become a professional programmer, just start coding. You don't need certificates to tell you who you are. Programmer is an occupation based mostly on meritocracy, It's a well known understanding in the industry that the best programmers are self taught.

Start by learning some text books and doing side projects. Try and get a job from there. It will take you 4-5 years of hard work to get to the level you mentioned. And note. There are many bad programmers out there that stop learning after 6 months and just accumulate time. Don't fall into that trap. Learning is hard but the personal reward is great.


If you want to become a dev via this route, right now that is a risky move and a long road to real expertise that would carry you through an economic downturn where very junior people are let go. If it is your passion to be a dev, maybe, but expect it to be difficult. Maybe just consider going back to a proper university for that CS degree you probably should have gotten to begin with?

If you want to become a much better PM and have the tools to start building apps on your own, then yes DO IT! Right now the economy is great, if in 3mo you are back on the job market saying "I'm an awesome PM and I did a coding bootcamp to increase my understanding of the products I manage so I can be an even better collaborator" you will just have increased your value significantly. Probably you could just go back to your old job with a promotion.


I am on a similar path, if with a much lower opportunity cost. I am 37 years old, one failed startup as a founder, a few marketing roles on other modest startups and some years as social project manager on the resume.

I decided to quit my last job and study full time to become a developer. Not through a bootcamp, but through cheap or free resources online. I chose freecodecamp.com to go for now.

I did an Ask HN too and I did not receive much support either from the HN crowd. I don't know if people here think being a developer is not a good career path, or they are tired of wannabes and impostors, or they consider a developer career is just for a few selected ones; but I was expecting much more support here for people wanting to learn to code.

My answer to your question: I think you should go for it. Just consider very carefully if a bootcamp is the best way. But if you have the cash reserve to use, I think might be a good first step. After that, keep searching for knowledge in other places. And follow with laser focus the exact field that you consider interesting.

If in one year you regret this decision, it is not too late to reverse the career change and go back with your great resume as a PM, with more added value by your experience learning to code. Go for it, it is not a path of no return and it will be a valuable experience either way.


> I did not receive much support either from the HN crowd

I think there's a reason for that, and you touched on some of them. There's undoubtedly an ageism to the tech industry, and being an older junior developer is likely to be a huge uphill climb.

There's also skepticism around the coding bootcamp industry for the same reason that there's skepticism around University of Phoenix: The certification isn't really useful or impressive, and the kind of person who benefits highly from a program like that would likely learn just as much through self-study at a severely reduced cost (or free).

Compounding that, there's a glut right now of alternative software development education. It's hard to imagine a future where being a software developer isn't significantly less prestigious in the future, except for software development in highly specialized areas (e.g. machine learning).

Not that prestige is so important, but the reasons for the loss of that prestige will likely cause salaries to plummet significantly. It's entirely possible (and some would say likely) that most web development will become analogous to traditional trade professions like plumbers in the future, with:

* Significantly less initial investment: There's no standard or certification for being a web developer)

* Significantly larger pool of competition: Your web developer doesn't need to physically be located near you, unlike your plumber.

If you're fine with all of these things, then that's great! Be a software developer. Just be aware that it's likely to experience significant changes in the coming decades, not many of which are likely to be beneficial. You might very well do better for yourself and your family to actually just become a plumber instead.


I don't know if it makes sense for the OP, but I'll stick up for coding bootcamps as a general concept. I don't agree that most people can just self-study in the same time period and get as effective an education, and I do think that the credential is important.

A friend of mine just did a bootcamp -- from a stalled career as a lab technician in which she was making something around $60k/year (in the Bay Area) -- and sure enough, three months later she got a job at $110k coding the consumer website for a bank.

Now. Is that the quintessential job that everyone on HN longs for? CLEARLY NOT. But is it pretty impressive to jump your salary up two really solid tiers in three months and at least be in a place where you might see another $50k/year over the next 5-10 years? From where she was? Hell yes.

Some people who are amazing autodidacts don't need a bootcamp for the skills, and lots of people who aren't amazing autodidacts could get the skills in other ways (but slower, and almost certainly cheaper). The credentialism is going to be a problem, though -- Google isn't going to hire a bootcamp grad, but they also almost certainly won't hire an autodidact. A big boring enterprisey place apparently will hire a bootcamp grad, and almost certainly wouldn't hire an autodidact. Startups, well, who knows, but they're a crap-shoot.


> I'll stick up for coding bootcamps as a general concept

Sure, and similarly there isn't anything inherently wrong with for-profit universities: You can certainly find people who excelled in an environment like DeVry and don't regret their decision to attend.

Over time one can expect that the "cream will rise to the top" and good bootcamps will have a certain reputation associated with them. Similar to for-profit universities. Still, I hope it goes without saying that many of the same concerns about for-profit universities also apply to coding bootcamps.

> I do think that the credential is important.

Why? What does the credential prove in this case?

> sure enough, three months later she got a job at $110k coding the consumer website for a bank.

That's great! I'm happy for her. Still, I hope that sentence gives you (and her) some pause for concern.

If three months is enough time to train someone for a $110k job, I would suggest that job is unlikely to remain paying $110k in the foreseeable future. It's hard to think of other professions that pay so well for so little investment. The supply can (and will) increase precipitously to match the demand, and salaries will drop precipitously.

For a recent example, see the recent glut of law students and freshly-minted lawyers making a pittance. There are quite a few parallels between that scenario and the current one facing software developers, except that law school is even more of an investment than coding bootcamps.

> at least be in a place where you might see another $50k/year over the next 5-10 years

That's my point though: I don't think that's likely. Maybe over 5, but it seems unlikely that 10 years from now she'll be making $160k. I'm suggesting that those kinds of salaries will be reserved for people working in specialized fields, not people doing basic web development.

For a more realistic future salary, I'd say look at developer salaries in places like Canada, or much of western Europe (where $60k/year a year is probably much more realistic than $110k).

> Google isn't going to hire a bootcamp grad, but they also almost certainly won't hire an autodidact

Google absolutely hires autodidacts. I know a few of them. Clichés about "non-Stanford students need not apply" aside, Google just hires smart people. Smart people don't always have degrees or certificates.


Well, if you're not sure, then do it over the weekends and at night. Are the hours at work enough that you won't have time in the evenings to work on this other skill?

Is this something where you could first try some of the online courses (Udacity, EdX, Khan Academy, etc) to see if you're actually interested and also able enough to do the job well?

Also, while I worked as a Software Engineer, I was not really doing much in the actual job and felt I was stagnating and falling behind. Most of the advancement in ability came during my free time where I'd try to learn new things, dive into new interests, create software I actually wanted, etc.

Eventually, work hours resulted in less and less time to do things on my own, and the crap at work got more and more irrelevant, tedious, and stupid. Also, management was all about trying to rid you of any competitive edge or anything else that makes you worth anything (or that brings you happiness), so in addition to all that was in place, it was known/realized they were going around each day looking for more ways to ensure every path would lead to a dead end.

It wasn't long before I wanted to quit and before I realized the only way to make it work would be to create my own company (or maybe become a freelancer/consultant).


I think doing it on the side is less feasible because (1) work takes up too much time for me to make meaningful progress in say 6 months, it will be very slow progress (2) I find that the best coding bootcamps also help in getting you a software engineering job which I think will be a lot harder just studying on your own

Bootcamps are for people who need employment quickly. Since you are employed, you can take evening and weekend programming classes to see if you like it before taking the plunge.

This is the best comment so far. Bootcamps make sense if you have spare time and spare money and want to ramp up very very quickly, but they don't provide anything you can't learn on your own. This is doubly so if you are already working in tech and interact with working programmers who can help sanity check what you're doing and help you along in your studies.

I understand how having some social structure helps one learn, but I've often seen this misapprehension from PMs and MBAs that you either "know code" or you don't, and if one can just cross this chasm then all of a sudden you can be the one building things and realize your own vision. But in reality you won't be a good coder unless you have the tenacity to keep learning continuously over years and decades. Self-learning is not only free, but it's a good litmus test for this tenacity, and there's a huge amount of resources out there that make it trivially easy to get started.


You can do it, but it will most likely be very difficult. Learning how to write software well is quite hard. On a fundamental level, we still don't know exactly how some people write much better software than others -- there are no perfectly objective measuring sticks to compare two pieces of code.

Boot camps are like dipping your toe in the water. Most people are not qualified after only a few months of learning. It might take a year or longer to become skilled enough to get hired . A small number of very talented and lucky folks can get there in 6 months with no prior experience.

Before quitting, it seems important to validate the assumption that you will actually like programming and have some success in it. Try building a few toy/example applications on the nights and weekend for a month or two.

That being said, after much consideration, if you want to do it and feel strongly it is the right path for you, go for it. I personally love writing software. It feels like magic sometimes -- you type some words into a file, and very cool things happen :)


Yes, you are. The best opportunities are in cross-field expertise, so keep working as a PM, but learn coding and other software development disciplines in parallel. Don't underestimate the management contribution to the quality of the code and to the final result: through building the right process, through the deep understanding of development team needs, weaknesses and strengths you may influence the resulting product much more than one of the coders. Everyone can code or learn to code - it is much harder both to possess the coding skills and manage people at the same time.

> e.g. block chain, deep learning, etc.

Most bootcamps that I'm aware of are for training web developers, with a few going into mobile app development. That will give you some basic coding skill but is probably not going to get you very far in the direction you want to go.

You'd most likely be better off seeking an online CS degree.


>> e.g. block chain, deep learning, etc.

> Most bootcamps that I'm aware of are for training web developers, with a few going into mobile app development.

Yeah, I'd actually be pretty interested in a bootcamp that teaches deep learning. AFAIK that doesn't exist, but it should (?)


I don't think there's enough time to teach. My machine learning class at Berkeley only felt like we were getting our feet wet.

Looking some more, the closest I can find are some "Data Science" bootcamps (like Insight and DataIncubator). But they require PhDs.

So yeah, maybe the only way it could work is if you already know it. They just give you a refresher and find you a job.


As someone who runs a startup,here are some personal observations.

I would say, a PM has to understand the user needs, and drive the product. The former has got two parts 1. Understanding the user needs which the user can articulate 2. Understanding the user needs which the users cannot articulate.

I have had the opportunity to work with some of the best coders. Though I greatly admired their intellectual capability, I was not a big fan of their ability to think from customer's shoes. I have figured out that "Common sense is not so common". Now, having an MBA does not guarantee common sense, but if you think that, you can communicate effectively with your users, understand their needs, empathise with them, and can comfortably put yourself in their shoes, your are definitely adding value as a PM on Point No 1

Understanding the user needs which the users cannot articulate - This is where innovation begins. Now, if you are a PM without the ability to code, you may be at a slight disadvantage here. The ability to code, or perhaps the understanding of the fundamentals, would help you to structure your thoughts. It gives you a clear picture on what is possible and what is not possible at the present, from where, you can start to innovate.

To me, Quitting the job appears certainly crazy.


Generally, PM does not need to understand user needs and drive product. It's a job for other people (product management, ux/cx analysts etc). The PMs primary function is to facilitate communication in the extended team, so that it will achieve the desired goals in given time, and this means his focus is internal, not external.

I believe PM in the context of the original post was referring to product management, not project management

Thanks, I had to grep "PM" on the whole page to make sense of this discussion. For me "PM" was either "private message" or "prime minister"…

Oh, right, thanks. Misunderstood it.

First of all, "crazy" is a good thing if you're trying to make a difference. Think about that for a moment. It's not that obvious. When I realized this, I felt extremely liberated.

Anyway, one good way to do this may be to:

1. Take a hiatus. You may either tell your employer that you want to learn coding, or you may decide not to. Either way it's fine. Even if you tell your employer, if they are really top 3 tech company, they will understand and even encourage it. You can spin it as "I want to be a better PM and want to understand coding."

2. Learn coding

3. While you're learning, you may feel the urge to really jump in and become a professional programmer. Then be so.

4. If no spark comes during your time at those bootcamps, come back to work and continue. But even in this case, the world will be a completely different place for you than now.

Don't worry about people telling you that's crazy. Crazy is good.


I'd think the answer would depend on which of the top 3 tech companies you work for: Apple, Samsung, or Foxconn.

Edit: Let me try a more helpful response (though I did intend to make a point there). You seem very focused on what you have: a good salary, a top 3 education, a job at a top 3 company. Things you expect should make you happy, basically, but you aren't, and this is confusing, and it's always scary to give it up if you haven't figured out why those things don't make you happy. But IMO, if that interpretation is correct, it's more important to attempt to find things that do make you happy rather than dwell too much on why the things you have, which are often equated with success in our culture, are not doing it.


I'll trade my front end dev job for yours.

Do whatever the fuck you want. It's your life and your career. Opinions are divided here as voters in the USA so no one will help you make a decision in this better than yourself. :)

Sounds like we are of similar backgrounds. I was a well paid PM, I've worked at a top tech company, and I had strategy consulting experience before that.

I quit my job went into a bootcamp and have been a software developer for a year plus. I've been pretty happy with the decision. My reasons were completely different though and were more about understanding what I was good at and passionate about.

I think I can help. Ask me anything.


Thanks super helpful. Had a couple of followups: (1) Which boot camp did you attend if you don't mind me asking and in what city? (2) How you find the job interview process? (3) What kind of work are you doing now? (4) Do you feel that today you could learn anything you wanted to learn for example deep learning if you put in time or do you feel webdev is extent of what you can do? (5) What do you enjoy most about it? (6) Enjoy least? (7) What was different than you expected going in? (8) Where do you see yourself going in the future as a software engineer? -- Thanks a ton for your help.

1) app academy San Francisco 2) it was challenging you get rejected a lot, you get tons of homework projects, and you end up having to practice skills that are useless for your job. I am dreading when I have to do the next job hunt (a lot of engineers hate the process). On the plus side most companies will want to interview you because of your background. 3) I am doing full stack web dev. Started mostly on the front end moving more towards the back. I just got moved to a search team. 4) Mostly not. I feel capable of doing web dev, mobile, and possibly embedded stuff. I do see myself able to get into machine learning within 4 years but that's because of my stem and math background. It is true though that by being a web dev many large companies will let you work on a team with machine learning guys so you can hustle your way in. Just don't think a bootcamp will give you the knowledge. 5) I like building things. I don't care that most of the things I build are crud apps, I have so much pride in being able to see something I built in the real world. 6) I feel lost and dumb a lot of the times. I realize now this feeling will never go away as an engineer - it's a part of the job. 7) I don't enjoy programming as much over the weekends. Before being an engineer I used to work on small coding projects on the weekend and loved it. Now that's it's my job I look forward to doing other stuff. It's kinda like how some NBA players probably don't want to play basketball in the offseason even if they love basketball. 8) I plan to move past web dev and go into something like computer vision or embedded systems. This will take several years but I think I can do it because I have a strong math background.

FYI I agree with many of the commenters that your reasons for doing a bootcamp seem a bit misguided. I did one because I'm genuinely excited by building things. I feel like I could be building boring crud apps for the next 5 years and I'd still be happy. If you don't feel that I would reconsider.


I would suggest that rather than a "coding bootcamp" you take courses from your local community college, state college, or similar (do you have something like Harvard Extension School?) in actual computer science and software engineering.

But yes, by all means, if your goal is to learn to write software yourself, go ahead and get that extra education.

Coding bootcamps produce people who are conversant in the hot technology of the week, but if they were weak on fundamentals going in they're still probably going to be weak on fundamentals coming out. If you want to be a leader in the field, and not in the rank and file, you need strong fundamentals.


Companies have this ridiculous idea that you have to either be a PM or a developer but you can't be both. Virtually everybody in an organization except developers wants to reinforce the view that developers are just dumb coders who's only purpose is to implement the whims of everyone else in the company as fast as possible. Every PM thinks they would be successful if only they had more devs to boss around. Becoming a developer is not going to be like you think.

Even as a former PM, PM's at your company will try to exert power over you if you are a dev. They will be backed up by executive management, board members, investors, the media who all have an interest in maintaining this outdated view of the programmer who takes the specifications and simply types in the code. Why not fire PM's and just hire PM's that code? PM's don't like that, executives (who don't code) don't like that, even the janitor doesn't like that. Nobody likes that except for devs and devs have no power in companies because of self reinforcing old school ideas about job roles.


"Companies"? The model you are describing is dying a speedy death IMHO. The only PMs left where I work are quite technical and do manage to join the dots between projects economics, office-politics, and engineering. Needing a PM is an indication that either something is very new, or is going very wrong. May I advise you to look for employment somewhere not going down the drain?

This is like a construction foreman deciding to take a step down and become a construction worker because he's insecure about not getting his hands dirty building. It's a bad career move.

>It's a bad career move. //

But might be a good life move!?


If my PM was interested in improving coding skills and went through a code bootcamp I think at the very least it would foster some mutual respect and understanding. Also in my limited experience using ML and deep learning frameworks the tools aren't about knowing how to code, they're more about "turning the right knobs" to achieve desired results. That said I think if you find the right code bootcamp it will teach you how to use the tools you're interested in. And yes you're crazy. But it helps to be crazy to do this kind of work.

No, not crazy, people change careers all the time. My suggestion would be to go over your reasons with someone like a counselor to determine if they are true for you or not. What I mean is, you said some things that are made up meanings. If you're cool with what you made up, then no worries, it's just something to look at, that you may be convincing yourself that "if I do this, then I'll finally feel fulfilled." (Not sure if this is true for you)

Like "I don't feel like I am building tangible skills as a PM, it is more about project management and coordinating." Perhaps you are learning many tangible skills (just not ones you prefer). Also, "I have a feeling tremendous opportunity will be available over the next 10 years to software developers while other disciplines such as management become less and less important." That could be true, but maybe it won't be.

My 2 cents


I'm surprised you dismiss serious skills like "project management" and "coordinating" like if anyone could do it at all, not to speak of doing it at a top 3 tech company (we're talking Google, Facebook, Apple level).

They either come very natural to you, hence why you think they're easy, or you're not good at your job and oblivious about it or you have a very junior position and someone else makes the difficult decissions.

Either way, I would love to be a PM with an interesting product, not to mention being in a top 3 tech company. The money must be really good and the feeling of fully conceiving and creating a product has no equal. Coding it is fine and feels good too, but steering the ship is where it's at.


I think about the future and get excited about technology and the types of things you can build and contribute to if you know how to code (e.g. block chain, deep learning, etc.)

You will learn none of these things at a coding bootcamp. If you are really interested in going deeper, check out Georgia Tech OMSCS - you can do it while you are holding your current job (employer may even pay for it for you if yr lucky) and more importantly the courses are relevant to what you state actually interests you about future of tech. http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/current-courses

I have a feeling tremendous opportunity will be available over the next 10 years to software developers while other disciplines such as management become less and less important.

I disagree, solid managers and leaders will always be important. Perhaps you are focusing on the negative, rote aspects of yr job too much?


As a hiring manager who has interviewed many many bootcamp grads and supervised a couple, I don't think they're are worth it. They're vastly overpromising what skill level you will be at when you graduate and how easily you will be able to find a job.

Because they are trying to compress a lot into a short period of time, and because they are trying to keep it interesting and give students early wins, they seem to not spend nearly enough time on the basics, and jump straight in to using frameworks that do everything for you, the end result being that a bootcamp grad can quickly whip up an ok looking app that has basically no functionality but as soon as you ask them to do something complicated, they get stuck. Sure, that's not true of all grads, but I'd argue that the ones who come out of a bootcamp with serious skills are the passionate ones who would've done just as well or better on their own, so at best they wasted a bunch of money.

You are much better off going the self taught route to start off, maybe take community college classes on the side. If dabbling like that doesn't inspire you and give you the fuel you need to learn what you need to know on your own then software engineering may not be the ideal career for you anyway, what you know is a small part of the job, what you can figure out and learn are also huge factors.


You're not crazy per se but have you ever written any code? Try to get your feet wet do something like a weekend project type deal to see if you have it in you :)

Nope. But you should make sure you actually enjoy coding. I did the switch like you (from running a small startup to doing a bootcamp and becoming a developer).

Several of the people in my cohort didn't become a developers though, as they didn't seem to have the proper motivation to put in the necessary work (at least not to manage it in a 3-5 month period).

You can read about my experience going from non-technical to technical here: https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/from-non-technical-to-...


Why quit your current gig? Can you find a bootcamp that you can complete over a "vacation"? If not, consider a program that you can acomplish evenings and weekends.

Unless you feel your PM role is a complete dead end, build on your experience instead of trading it away.

Edit, adding: A PM who understands software development, or a developer who understands project management, is a good set of skills to have.


Yes, this is pretty insane. No one of merit will hire you on the basis of a coding boot camp. It's a good idea on the basis of skill set enhancement (you'll know more about how your charges think+work) but as a career change, utterly completely insane.

Most technical careers are competitive and short.


Your are crazy. I taught myself rails part time using Lynda.com. I'm a sales and marketing manager, but love tech and wanted to build stuff.

The skills you pick up learning to code will be tremendous for managing others to build what you need.

Coding is hard to do well and takes years to get really good at it, and you will likely need to start at the bottom of the food chain to get the right coaching and support. I'd recommending learning enough code to be dangerous but get experts to help you do the hard stuff.

That said if this choice is about happiness, then go with your heart. Money shouldn't factor into that decision, it will come over time.


No, you're not crazy. But if you desire to learn how to code and you're surrounded by top talent coders, why should you go for a (possibly mediocre) coding bootcamp?

Maybe do the bootcamp to get started, but keep your job and the opportunity it gives you to meet other great developers and learn from them.

My recommendation is: 1. learn the basics however you prefer, 2. study open source code, 3. build something medium-size that you can use, either home or work. If you're very good & lucky this may be your next gig. If not, you'll be a PM with coding skills, which usually is a pleasure to work with from a dev perspective.


NOT crazy at all. Actually this is a very good idea. Being able to code makes you a much better PM and help you gain respect of engineers. It will also will help you become a better tech entrepreneur or exec if you ever choose to be.

Having some kind of hard technical skill very important. It help you tackle harder problems that arises in the future. For example let say AI becomes increasingly important. Since you know some code, you ability to lead in this a new technical field will be better than someone with no technical ability.

FYI i'm a coder and founder of a software company. Most of my time is spend on PM now.


>Being able to code makes you a much better PM //

People aren't saying he's crazy to learn coding (though he's going to need some solid actual CS for deep learning / blockchain stuff I'd imagine); they're saying he's crazy to ditch his job and switch to a boot camp.

I took a >50% pay cut and switched to a field I had no experience in. It was absolutely crazy and high risk; it was a lifestyle move though rather than a career move as such.

Also, does he want to be "a better PM", or does he [think he] want[s] to be a software engineer (or similar), it seems like the latter to me?


I agree with your projection for the future and that PMs in general develop only limited skills for building products or contributing at the ground floor, but I would not get into programming unless you feel like you're wired for it, because you may invest years only to become mediocre, and can even grow to hate it.

Why not contribute by launching a startup as CEO? If a Harvard MBA with deep pockets and PM experience reached out about her startup idea, that is a beer or coffee I would take seriously. In other words it sounds like you have the background to attract a talented programmer cofounder.


Well I made the transition you talk of. Although I didn't have to go to coding bootcamp. I was a developer before I went to business school and became a PM. While I found the job of a PM interesting, I loved coding, and always kept my skills current. So when the time came, I quit to do my own startup, where I play the role of the CTO (initially the only programmer.) It's a wonderful feeling. I haven't really given up my PM function. I'm very much in charge of the product. So try this route. You may find it works better for you.

Well, you've got a lot of answers here already.

I've worked in startups and the game industry as a programmer, designer, producer (probably more like your version of PM), and kind of as a PM (which, in gaming, is probably like some percentage of your job now, but not all of it).

It's definitely true that having worked as a designer and programmer was INCREDIBLY helpful in making me a better producer. The ability to communicate with people you manage or need to make decisions for at a passable level of their domain knowledge will be very fruitful and will help you command their respect. You'll make better decisions too, of course.

Feel free to email me if you want to know more. (That goes for anyone here, I'm always happy to give advice.)


Yes and no. My question is, what do you want to achieve by going through a boot camp? Using the certification as a pivot for career change? Having an short period of time where you can focus and intensely study the subject? I think it's important to consider what specifically about the boot camp route is important to you, because there are a lot of other ways to be proficient in coding.

Tutorials on various common "patterns" (RoR web apps, iOS apps etc.) are of good quality and easily available these days. As a PM in big tech, you can try to find little ways to contribute into the product's code base, which will teach you both programming and engineering practices. In my experience (disclaimer: was a PM), engineers are delighted when PMs show interest in code, and at least a few would be excited to hand hold you through the process of setting up your dev box, building the product etc. It's not a bad way to get better while making hand and fist full of money.

That said, like any other craft and practice, programming is layered and specializes. It takes 5-10 years to be "good", and it takes equals amount of time to be good in a specialization (say machine learning for example). Even for a good ol' engineer to move from building web apps to building machine learning systems, the barriers are still non-trivial. Furthermore, consider that a career in software engineering is perhaps more akin to spending 20% of your time building somewhat sexy* new thing, and 80% of your time doing boring boiler plate work, trying to pull your hair out digging through other people's APIs and code, and wondering why the build and CI system is so broken. If that's what you want to do, then go for it.

* most likely it's just a boring CRUD app using somewhat unfashionable technology.


>engineers are delighted when PMs show interest in code

In particular, if you want to go for sink or swim, switch to a technical PM role in your dev platform (like the Dart, STL, app model, or cpp teams). You'll be forced to learn more about how developers work and what goes into a language. Can highly recommend it.


I think it's definitely okay. Though part of me thinks you should have kept your job as a PM. You could have approached the engineering team at your company and learned a bit about the process to see if it was something you would like to do for a career. And possibly you could have learned some programming skills at home and maybe built some side projects with your coworkers (to get your foot in the door in regard to getting a job as a programmer while still having your job as a PM). After all, you do want to code for a living, right? You ought to think about how you want to use your time. On the other hand, if you have the money, I say why not. I hope you chose something you are excited about though (things like back-end, front-end, or mobile engineering, etc).

Otherwise, it's quite odd. It seems you ought to be in my spot and I ought to be in yours. I plan to pursue a career as a product manager after I graduate (hopefully join a rotational product management program). I am currently studying computer science at a University of California. I have yet to have my first internship though but I plan to attend Recurse Center (https://www.recurse.com/) this upcoming summer to work on some iOS projects (I am more interested in mobile than say back-end or front-end engineering). And while I have good grasp of a few programming languages and tools, I do not think I would like to code for a living. It's fun building things and the future of software is indeed bright. I just find the aspect of programming on a daily basis will result in burning out, personally. Plus even when I do a gig as a product manager, I will still would like to develop mobile applications (particularly iOS).

Above all, there's nothing wrong with changing your mind and learning more. Plus you have an MBA and now you are going to have some coding skills. You are golden. So long as you are excited about what you are pursing, and not let that excitement fade.


The only crazy part is thinking you need to choose between the two options. Job descriptions can be flexible. Keep your job, learn to code, and work for someone who lets you do both.

Thanks for the responses guys. A few more points of clarification. PM means product manager. Top 3 tech think Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple. In terms of my motivation I think today we are where the internet was in 1994-95, at the cusp of the next big technology wave. I think technologies like deep learning and AI more broadly will fundamentally change every single industry and the next big tech companies will be created during this period. Not knowing how to code I think places me at a big disadvantage when it comes to the software jobs that will open up and at a disadvantage if I want to take a stab at starting a company using these technologies. It is a risky bet for sure, but if I think long-term I have a feeling learning to code and being immersed in engineering by working as a software engineer will be a very smart move. But I could be completely wrong lol :)

I can certainly understand wanting to make this transition. One thing to bear in mind, though, is that corporate programming jobs can end up having a lot of focus on process and highly-structured modes of collaboration that make it a very different experience from coding on your own. As a tech PM, you're probably more aware of this than people coming from some other backgrounds, but still something to watch out for, especially if you're tempted because you enjoy hobby coding.

I personally think you are better off trying to learn this on your own. It seems like you have the enthusiasm. It sounds like you're also unhappy with where you work. You could try changing jobs to something where you have lots of free time (good/work life balance, no commute) and work on learning to code. Coding boot camps are very web development focused.

Keep your job and fund a company on the side hiring people to do the hands-on stuff your dreaming about. The software industry is full of challenges and tech so it's endless and extremely diverse. You could spend the rest of your life on deep learning or whatever discipline. Today your just another drone PM, if you want to make a difference build a company, don't be another drone techy dude.

Crazy, yes. But is it the right kind of crazy to drive your success? There are no rewards without risk. Bottom line, if you can sustain yourself through your proposed experiment, then why not? But I would preface that with some soul searching. Are the things driving you away from being a PM generic in nature and likely to follow you? If so, it probably means the remedy to your woes is working on yourself.

Management will only become more important in the future. As technology gets more complex, it will take greater numbers of people to create and maintain it.

And truthfully, most companies today are really bad at management, particularly related to technology.

Learning to code is a great idea but I would think of it as supplementary to your management work.

You're right about all these amazing technologies that are being developed, but truthfully, the stuff you learn in a bootcamp is not going to put you in a position to do much in those fields. It might be a small step in that direction, but you would need to go way beyond it. Advancements are coming from folks with deep knowledge of math, algorithms, systems engineering, etc.


Quitting a job might lead to something nice, but my understanding is that programming and computer science is overestimated. It's very interesting to learn how things work, but really doing something meaningful with it is mostly very very hard and one has lack of time or not intended all and thus you end up writing things you would never use yourself.

You're almost certainly crazy from a financial perspective. You're unlikely to catch up, salary-wise, and will hit the ageism wall a lot faster as a developer.

But hey, we all get a little crazy when it comes to the things we love. Just be aware that a bootcamp is just the first of a great many steps before you can contribute to something you'd consider the 'future' and not 'move the button 10 pixels to the right'.


There's a self-paced in-depth program I can highly recommend that might allow you to do/explore this in a moderate way - that is, without quitting. I'd be happy to chat about it. My email is in my profile.

By PM do you mean product or project manager? If you're a project manager can you move over to the product side? That way you'll be able to leverage your MBA by learning a new set of skills. These will include SQL and data analysis, whatever field your product serves, and I even knew a couple of product managers who would occasionally sling code, write copy or design mockups when the project deadline was slipping. I feel that coding is going to be a dead end career field in 10-20 years, because everyone will simply do it as part of their job. Better to work on those soft skills, rather than just a pure technical skill.

> I have a feeling tremendous opportunity will be available over the next 10 years to software developers while other disciplines such as management become less and less important.

We're in a period when everyone is "learning to code". This means the potential pool of developers (ignoring their actual talent levels) is growing.

Someone has to check whether the stuff people are making is following whet needs to be created. Someone has to be able to manage the teams of people making these things.

I'd suggest your premise is the wrong way round.


Learning coding takes five years—at least. Do you really want to invest this time?

Like several other commenters have said, a better approach would be to learn coding on your own time. (Choose a language—any language will do, learn the basic from a introductory book and codecademy.com, then work on small weekend projects)


You're not crazy, but temper your job and income expectations. (though you may get hired because of your PM experience, to do PM) Most bootcampers when they come out are ready to be an intern and start learning. Your life will be much different than your used to, but if you're in it for the long term, that's not a problem.

As for learning to code because of things like the blockchain, etc, keep in mind that bootcamps teach you to build web apps, not that level of programming.


Quite possibly, but consult professional help if necessary.

You really don't need a boot camp to learn coding. I would stay at your job and learn on the side.

Read Cal Newport on career capital. Do you have enough of it?

What future role do you see yourself playing in the industry? Well paid geek, founder, investor, researcher ?

Learn everything you are excited about on the side. No need to take risks courses and general info is available everywhere, you are smart, you can learn everything on your own.

You are crazy from a careers perspective, but do whatever makes you happy.

What is driving you to seek this change? What do you want to be doing 3 years from now?

What's so bad about crazy? Do what makes you happy OP, what else is there?

just hire a mentor 1 on 1 dont throw away a good job to become a front end dev or mobile app dev its madness

Yes, you are crazy. The reason we don't seem to have systematic leapfrog jumps in that technology is not for lack of good programmers.

Usually, the people who do that stuff have the additional skill of programming to apply more advanced ideas. It is a tool to leverage existing knowledge.

You can start right away with HMM, MFC, pattern recognition, classifiers, neural networks, and make them work but this is really not enough.

I had two professors as supervisors, one in Energetics and the other in Signal Processing (usually you have a Doctor supervisor). I was told the problem: figure out a way to do multiphase flow pattern recognition from void fraction only (measured with electrical capacitance tomography not to disturb the flow). I was left unsupervised in an ocean of knowledge and I drowned. I dropped the ball.

I'm not doubting how smart you are but the chances you are a genius are as slim as the Gaussian tail that goes with it.

You have a good job. Heck, you have a job. You can gain these skills on the side and use them to leverage your domain expertise.

You're probably where you are because you have good self control, it might be time to exert it to tame your impulse.


Try taking a class in udemy. See if you can get that much first before quitting. Speaking from experience.

what is a PM? you're the prime minister?

Nah, PM stands for Project Manager, the person who coordinates & manages a project to make sure it happens on time and on budget.

It's also used to mean product manager. OP should've spelled this out to get better answers.

A PM is what companies used to call a business analyst. These days companies inflate titles so everybody has manager in their title.

Project, Product or Programme Manager most likely.

Honestly, this is the first way I read it as well.

Product Manager



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