上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 252

[–]PaxCecilia 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

the post stays up so the "inclusion/safety" argument can remain.

In all fairness the top reply is the opposite side of the argument as OP. Both points of view are there for someone to read and reflect on. I don't think it's fair to say (edit: imply?) that locking the topic reflects bias from the moderators.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's true, that top post IS an opposing view. Maybe that's why it was locked.

But the problem is the sequence of events we've seen in other subs. We've seen it start this way, and end with anyone who disagrees being banned. That's happened in almost every sub this has come up in that I've been a part of.

I don't want /r/boardgames to become that.

Nor do I want /r/boardgames to become a sub where we're arguing about this all the time.

I think pushing politics in this sub should be off-limits.

[–]PaxCecilia 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

But the problem is the sequence of events we've seen in other subs. We've seen it start this way, and end with anyone who disagrees being banned. That's happened in almost every sub this has come up in that I've been a part of.

Perhaps it's just a difference of interests, but this isn't a pattern in my experience. I've never seen this happen before (inclusion topic leading to very charged arguments and topic lock). I can't relate to this sentiment at all, so when you say:

That's true, that top post IS an opposing view. Maybe that's why it was locked.

it seems like an extremely unfair assumption to put on the moderators.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not assuming. Assuming would be to say "That's why it's locked."

I'm just not shutting down the possibility. This is precisely why I asked them to address this personally.

That being said, /u/Epsilon_balls already replied to me and said he will say something later.

[–]luquaum 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You've not seen many mod posts then on boardgames.

[–]PaxCecilia 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That may well be a fair statement. Admittedly I don't browse /r/boardgames as often as I browse the dedicated subreddits for games I play.

[–]discojedi2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't want /r/boardgames to become that.

Nor do I want /r/boardgames to become a sub where we're arguing about this all the time.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the world does not bend to what you want. :)

[–]tdhsmith 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

For the record I also want to chime in that I think the mods made the right choice. I think the thread devolved from what its OP was hoping for and no one was gaining anything out of it. Deleting it outright would have been more of censorship issue, though I'm not completely against the mods electing to delete things when they feel necessary.

I don't really wish to rehash the argument itself other than to say there is still a lingering toxicity and general ugly "redditness" to /r/boardgames, an I'm very happy my own slice of the real-world board game community doesn't seem to express those same hangups and biases.

[–]lianodel 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

For what it's worth, I agree. It seemed like people were taking extreme positions, and when that happens, people with moderate opinions get treated as though they were on the extremes, too. Basically, it all turns angry very quickly.

The OP also referenced the recent election, and while it wasn't directly addressed, it kind of opens the floodgates for politics in /r/boardgames, and hoo boy, I don't want that.

I honestly haven't noticed that much toxicity in /r/boardgames, but that doesn't mean it's not there. I'm just happy that, when it happens, it's usually a minority opinions that sinks to the bottom. I also assume that the mods are just doing their job (and since the thread was locked but not deleted, and explicitly linked to this as a place to still discuss it if we wish, I appreciate their transparency).

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

I am open to pointing out toxicity where it exists. We're just coming out of an election, after all.

I must say, though, when it is phrased like this: "there is still a lingering toxicity and general ugly "redditness" to /r/boardgames, an I'm very happy my own slice of the real-world board game community doesn't seem to express those same hangups and biases." I just can't avoid getting a whiff of self-righteous and moralizing judgement. Which is itself toxic.

Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps there is a better way to phrase it. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that you and your group of people are better than or superior to reddit, or that there aren't other perfectly normal and rational groups of people out there who would be as off-put by your group as you are by reddit.

[–]flyliceplick 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that you and your group of people are better than or superior to reddit

That wouldn't be saying a great deal. I'm sure you remember /r/coontown, for instance.

[–]discojedi2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's got to be some kind of logical fallacy, right? To claim you are superior to a group of people and indentifying the worst samples of that group as proof of your claim?

That would be like me claiming I am the smartest, most attractive, and most capable human being on the planet, and then coming over to your house and pointing at you eating your own feces in your living room and going "see!? told you!"

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

r/coontown is not reddit. It's disingenuous to present the worst elements of a very large and diverse group as its mean.

[–]flyliceplick 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought you weren't too keen on diverse groups?

[–]tdhsmith 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is a little self-righteousness there for certain, and I'm sure there is a better way to put it.

I do mean to imply my community is superior to reddit, but I don't mean it in any sense that is worth congratulation. Reddit is an internet community, and the medium itself brings out different kinds of social interactions than an in-person community. If my local board game community were online and anonymous, it's very likely our interactions would be different.

I'm sure there are folks out there who would be off-put by my community. I don't know why I would object to that. Now do I think they have an strong ethical backing to their off-puttedness? I'd have to hear their arguments before I believe that.

(Though for the record, my dig at "redditness" overstates my emotions in the matter. It's a service I continue to use daily, after all.)

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, all that's fine. But it's not consistent to criticize toxic while being toxic.

You could be more obviously toxic, to be sure, by being crass for example. But being self-righteous without cursing or being aggressive is still toxic.

[–]Minus-Celsius 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that you and your group of people are better than or superior to reddit

I have no idea why you are reading "self-righteous and moralizing judgment" into preferring friends to strangers on the internet.

[–]eviljelloman 26ポイント27ポイント  (58子コメント)

Remember these discussions any time you spout off about how welcoming and inclusive /r/Boardgames is. It's not. The fact that posts simply asking people to be kind to one another constantly attract vitriolic bullshit is why I rarely post there anymore.

The community is becoming more and more toxic, while patting itself on the back about how great it is. It's hypocritical bullshit.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 21ポイント22ポイント  (25子コメント)

EDIT: I want to preface my reply with a link: This is another comment /u/eviljelloman sent me. I just want it to be absolutely clear that there are a lot of people who complain about toxicity that engage in extremely toxic behavior, often in the same breath.

If you haven't encountered a lot of this, you may tend to take what they say for granted because they're advocating for something good on the surface. You might be confused by people who react strongly to them - but keep in mind that a lot of people have encountered a lot of people like this. What seems like an overreaction may be reasonable and proportional to someone who has seen a lot of this and can notice the red flags.


This is why we can't have this discussion. You define anyone who disagrees with you as vitriolic and toxic by definition. You're refusing to entertain the possibility that someone can justifiably disagree with you.

If you can't talk about this without demonizing people who disagree with you, please don't bring it to r/boardgames.

[–]RadicalDog 13ポイント14ポイント  (10子コメント)

I call comment chains like this pretty vitriolic: https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/5c0mmw/a_call_for_inclusion_safety_and_looking_out_for/d9ss0rd/

As soon as someone says they agree and are imagining their daughter growing up, there's a snarky reply implying he's using her. Not a coolheaded discussion or even a particularly clever criticism; just vitriol one layer deep.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

That kind of stuff comes up everywhere. People who agree with OP's sentiment behave the same way. If we talk about this enough I will have plenty of examples to show you., and you will have plenty more to show me.

I'm not into pretending only people on one side are toxic.

Yes, people on both sides will be toxic which is why we shouldn't be having this discussion at all in r/boardgames.

[–]autovonbismarck 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

which is why we shouldn't be having this discussion at all in r/boardgames.

If the actions of gamers and the design of boardgames makes large sections of the population feel uncomfortable, attacked or ignored, /r/boardgames is exactly the place to be having that discussion!

[–]uhhhclem 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

In the abstract, sure. But not on Reddit. Reddit's not a place to have adult conversations about controversial issues.

[–]eviljelloman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reddit is not the place to have adult conversations period. Which is fine - but then the /r/boardsgames holier than thou talk gets old.

[–]RadicalDog 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

You define anyone who disagrees with you as vitriolic and toxic by definition.

This was what I was replying to. /u/eviljelloman said there was vitriolic bullshit, you said he was saying that only because he disagreed, and I pointed some out so that you can see it's a real thing. I'm not going to get into a he-said-she-said about which side was worse on the post, just providing evidence for you.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

For the record, Here you go.

I've already been accused of being on the alt right. Among other things.

BOTH sides.

[–]RadicalDog 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

You keep trying to say I said it was one side. I didn't. I'm not even sure it was what eviljelloman was saying.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry, I didn't mean to reply to you. I apologize. I'll move that.

OH, sorry. I thought you were /u/eviljelloman in your posts above. That explains it. Sorry for the miscommunication.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

You specifically defined one side as "simply asking people to be kind to one another" and then said the toxicity is all on one side. Don't pretend that that's not harmful and disingenuous. This discussion has happened outside of that thread many times and we know exactly how people act.

I agree with you that people are toxic. I disagree with you in that I don't deny that people are toxic on both sides.

[–]ambierona/r/boardgames 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, people on both sides will be toxic

I haven't had time to look through the thread yet, but I assume this is the reason it was locked.

[–]eviljelloman 8ポイント9ポイント  (13子コメント)

In response to your edit - anyone can look at your post history. All you do is go from one community to the next spouting off about political topics. You don't contribute to discussions about anything except pushing back against leftist points of view. That is literally trolling. You bitch about politics in /r/Boardgames but almost never actually talk about boardgames. Pointing that out is not toxic. Your false equivalence is.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

I have an intellectual interest in ethically complex and controversial subjects. I don't accuse people of racism (like you did to me), or sexism, or any other bigotry or moral failing. I don't call people names. I engage in conversations that are inherently difficult, and raise opinions that people find offensive not because they find them offensive, but because people tend to suppress ideas that offend them, regardless of their quality.

The entire point of this thread is that I don't want to do that here.

[–]sigma83 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

I have an intellectual interest in ethically complex and controversial subjects

Whereas some of us have to actually live with the results of racism and sexism on a daily basis. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use our lives as fodder for your intellectual stimulation. Thanks.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

This style of dialogue is generally an impediment to mutual understanding and progress. Demanding someone defer to you with an emotional appeal is, essentially, rhetorical blackmail.

Further, though it's ultimately irrelevant: I live with daily racism and sexism myself, so your appeal is ultimately not compelling to me.

[–]NotAChaosGod 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

The dreaded racism against white people and sexism against men do not count.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not all non-white-men agree with you. Most of them, actually, don't.

[–]NotAChaosGod -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Uh huh.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

::shrug:: White men are less than half of people who voted for Trump. Non-white men that voted for Trump outnumber white men that voted for Trump 2:1.

[–]OutlierJoe 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The entire point of this thread is that I don't want to do that here.

But you either seem to be okay with stirring up political discussion when it suits you (You brought it up over an innocuous Kotaku article). And this sort of discussion seems to be your primary /r/boardgames bat signal.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wanted to participate in the discussion as I found that post particularly interesting, but I don't want to give revenue to Gawker or Gawker subsidiaries. I know there are others like me who play games.

So I didn't click, and in lieu of participating, I tried to make it known that some people have this issue. I was hoping that would be the end of it.

When will you guys stop assuming all my motivations are nefarious because I disagree with you and just take it for granted that I have reasonable motivations you're just unaware of?

[–]two__sheds 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think people just have knee-jerk reactions to being told to be nice and inclusive. If you asked me to not take a dump on my neighbour's front porch, I'd be pretty upset. Not because I regularly deface my neighbour's property, but because I would never consider doing it and I'd resent being asked not to as if that were a risk. I think that's where the majority of the vitriol comes from; not the toxic people the request is aimed at, but the people who feel that they're being accused of something horrible.

[–]JimmyDabomb 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Have you considered that not every sign or post is not meant for you? Just because you might not smoke doesn't make "no smoking" signs irrelevant.

I've encountered some measure of sexism from the rpg/boardgame community. Reminding everyone that when we let that fly we make things harder for others would only be unreasonable if it never ever happened.

[–]two__sheds 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

As a female in STEM with a disability, I am extremely familiar with feeling excluded or discriminated against. In the interest of keeping my previous post short, I didn't make my views entirely clear. That's my bad.

I wasn't saying there isn't any toxicity in the community; my aim was to point out that the anger we're seeing might not all be from barely-contained bigot rage. I think a lot of it is from normal, possibly even nice people who have trouble understanding when a post isn't directed at them. Sometimes a gentler, less blanket-y approach is better when dealing with a touchy subject like this. Target people's awareness of the subject without coming across as accusatory.

Good people often don't see negative things that happen. It doesn't make them any less good. I had a friend who couldn't believe that women were discriminated against in STEM until he actually witnessed in person a guy accusing me of getting a job only because I have a vagina. My friend is a fantastic person, but he couldn't fathom that anyone else would possibly not share his views on women in engineering. Now that he's aware, he is an amazing ally. That is what we need!!!

Instead of a blanket statement to all people telling them "DO NOT EXCLUDE WOMEN/MINORITIES/PEOPLE WITH VARYING ABILITY LEVELS", the original OP could try "Exclusion happens sometimes because there are raging dickholes out there. You may not have experienced it or seen it directly. If someone brings it up, or if you do see it happening, be an ally and say/do something."

Polarizing is never good. The last thing we want when trying to make things more inclusive and friendly is to foster an "us vs. them" mentality. It should be "us and you vs. assholes", because let's face it - the assholes aren't going to read a reddit post, realize they're assholes and spontaneously change their behaviour.

[–]autovonbismarck 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Instead of a blanket statement to all people telling them "DO NOT EXCLUDE WOMEN/MINORITIES/PEOPLE WITH VARYING ABILITY LEVELS", the original OP could try "Exclusion happens sometimes because there are raging dickholes out there. You may not have experienced it or seen it directly. If someone brings it up, or if you do see it happening, be an ally and say/do something."

I mean...That's basically what the OP did, no? The list of rules is incredibly vague, and never once mentions what kind of behaviour is "problematic" or what groups we should strive to include.

Which, in itself, is actually pretty impressive.

I think it says a lot about the backlash that people basically projected all of their own "others" onto the rules, and then claimed they were sick of being told how to think.

[–]two__sheds 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They didn't name names when it came to what people need to be included, but by this point I think it's safe to assume that we're not talking about hetero cis-gender white males finding the community "problematic". But yes, you are right. They kept things vague for the most part. I was starting to get jumbled between the original post and the comments I'd read about it.

I do think that there are a few issues with the way the information was presented. Using vague terms like "problematic" leaves people to fill in the blanks. I think that by using that particular language the OP avoided naming any actual problems plaguing the community and subbed in a word that's come to mean "anything that offends anyone", especially on Reddit. Does "problematic" mean blatant racism/sexism/homophobia, or does it extend as far as off-colour jokes or cursing? I get where people wouldn't want an environment that's not offensive to anyone in the slightest enforced on them. So yes, there's going to be some projection; while I don't think that was the OP's intent, the vagueness leads to people feeling shamed for minor "problematic" behaviours while missing the point that OP (and all of us!) has bigger fish to fry.

I also think that the OP went a little wrong in telling readers to demand diversity and inclusion in games. I think it's amazing when you get a game that's not from a standard POV (all my favourite video games are the ones where I can play as a female, especially when I have options when it comes to sexuality and appearance) BUT I think it's unfair to demand that everyone ask for this. It's perfectly okay for a white male to not be interested in a game that's not designed with his POV in mind... where I have a problem is when some assholes get pissy because not every single game is from their POV.

Overall, I get what they were saying, but the whole thing came across as kind of preachy and vaguely blame-y so I can see how others would find it problematic ;).

I would also like to note that I think the premature locking of the thread halted some potentially valuable discourse and caused some additional anger. Looking at this thread, while there are some nutjobs, the majority of the conversation has been thoughtful and productive. I don't think the response was warranted.

[–]discojedi2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You identify as "a disabled female in STEM"?

Why do I get the feeling you're a really shitty, self-centered person?

[–]King_Kars 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I cant seem to figure out if you dont realize what a straw man argument this is, or just don't care. Smoking is something that is commonly acceptable in the public arena to the point that it has to be denoted with signs as unacceptable in certian areas. The same wouldn't apply for topics that are generally unacceptable. If someone suddenly began posting "no child abuse" or "no sexual harassment" (something not commonly accepted) the inferance is it's a rampant problem. Based on you justification I should be able to post a "stop domestic violence" thread in board games every week, which would be reasonable according to you unless you believe that domestic violence "never ever happen[s]". Or you know, we could stick to the topic of boardgames in /r/boardgames.

[–]zz_x_zz 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do you think I'm toxic (whatever that means)?

I'm asking because it's so tiring talking in these broad, outrageous general terms. Let's talk about individuals. Tell me exactly the part about myself that you think is wrong and what I should do to change it. If I'm free of guilt, use somebody as an example.

I check the sub everyday and the overwhelming majority of what I see is people asking for, and receiving, advice on what boardgames to buy. I just looked and couldn't find anything that I would call "toxic". I wish I had stats to back that opinion up, but I'm curious if you disagree that this is what the sub mostly is about.

[–]autovonbismarck -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the part of you is toxic is your shameful masturbatory habits. having thoroughly investigated your post history, your predilections are disgusting, and I pray to my lord and saviour jesus christ that your mother never finds out.

[–]saikron 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

I disagree that his post was "simply asking people to be kind to one another".

I mean, section one, bullet one is that I should "educate myself". We're already making the presumptions that 1) gamers are wrong 2) because they aren't educated.

[–]Speedupslowdown 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's not presumptuous.

The implicit statement is: "If you haven't looked into it, you should really research the social effects of gaming and how they can have negative consequences on certain groups."

It's not saying that gamers are wrong about anything, but it is suggesting that maybe some of them need to educate themselves if they want to improve relations in the board game community. It's kind of a first step towards understanding the situation, not an insult to gamers.

[–]saikron 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Educate yourselves. Make an effort to think about and research social issues in gaming. Don’t dismiss it as undesirable “politics”.

Where do you get the qualifier, "if you haven't looked into it" from that? I don't see where it's implied at all. What if I have looked into it and I still disagree with later bullet points? Do I need to educate myself harder?

It's kind of a first step towards understanding the situation, not an insult to gamers.

See "1) gamers are wrong". Even if we agree that there is a "situation", then you are presuming that education is how a person gets on either side or moves from one side to another.

[–]Speedupslowdown 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

The point isn't that if you educate yourself you will automatically start to change your mind about it, but rather that education is the baseline for dealing with this situation.

And yes, there is a situation. By placing the word in quotes you belittle it and seem to suggest that it doesn't exist. For many people, being harassed because of their gender, race, or other aspect of their identity is a reality. Maybe you're lucky enough to not have to deal with it. Maybe you aren't. Either way, if you educate yourself about the reality that others have to experience you will have the correct level of empathy to engage the conversation about it.

[–]saikron 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And yes, there is a situation. By placing the word in quotes you belittle it and seem to suggest that it doesn't exist.

The situation I thought we were discussing was that the boardgaming community isn't diverse enough, because that's what the point of the OP and the list he reposted is. I disagree with that and the post like 6 different ways (including that it even is a problem, like you inferred), and I don't believe there is any information that I'm missing that would change my mind.

I'm hoping you didn't think I'm just unaware that people are harassed based on their identity. If we were going to have a discussion without assumptions like these, I'm pretty sure we'd make a bunch of posts before finally coming to the conclusion that there are one or a few underlying axioms that we disagree on or even just disagree about the relative importance of each. There's not going to be any big reveal of secret knowledge.

[–]discojedi2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And yes, there is a situation. By placing the word in quotes you belittle it and seem to suggest that it doesn't exist. For many people, being harassed because of their gender, race, or other aspect of their identity is a reality.

Holy shit! Talk about spouting rhetoric and always moving the goal posts...

The person you're replying to made the claim that "there is no *** Big Situation*** in the board game community regarding inclusion". And you somehow read this as "Sexism and racism doesn't exist in this world"?

Please, please don't act like an idiot in an effort to emotionally appeal to people. It is dishonest, /u/Speedupslowdown

Either way, if you educate yourself about the reality that others have to experience you will have the correct level of empathy to engage the conversation about it.

Here we go with that word "education" again. Why are you so adamant in your belief that, if I don't agree with you, I haven't "educated myself" sufficiently yet? Are you saying the only reason any person would ever agree with you is if they are uneducated? The is the most self-centered thing I have ever heard.

[–]Binary101010 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yet another attempt to discuss social issues was promptly shouted down by others, and then locked by the mods, and this seems to be a pattern.

At this point I've come to the conclusion that I fundamentally disagree with the mods on their policies to the extent that I'm better off unsubscribing and finding somewhere else to discuss boardgames.

[–]wallace321 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It didn't say "be nice to each other" or it would have said, "be nice to each other". "Be nice to each other" doesn't need to be said. This was bullshit gender politics / PC policing and people who aren't the .01% of the population that is actually the problem don't like being treated like they don't know how to be nice to people or being expected to bend over backwards and censor their thoughts and words to protect the feelings of the hyper sensitive and emotionally damaged.

[–]Carighan 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

"Simply asking people to be nice to each other". Right. I have a feeling it is people actually believing this which causes these prejudice ladden posts.

[–]Speedupslowdown 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Since when is trying to have empathy for others equal to prejudice?

[–]Carighan 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Again, very same mistake. "Trying to have empathy" is a positive thing. The post which was locked this meta post is about is not doing that, however. Or well I suppose it is also doing that, though that's not always a requirement. It's the same with "simply asking people to be nice to each other", actually that one is already worse because it implies the person you address isn't already nice <-- therein lies the core of the issue, really.

A somewhat fitting comparison is that if you want to work on the conditions of the poor, a politician holding talks in front of a rich audience about how much money the city spends on it isn't helpful at all. The social worker paid with that money who actually walks out into the streets and picks up people, that's helping.

In other words, don't preach to a huge subreddit in a way which implies (or gives the impression that) all of them need to work on it - the by-far lion share doesn't, and you're just antagonizing them. Take it to where it helps, as a reply under excluding statements, into gaming groups where work can be done, ETC.

[–]Speedupslowdown 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it's antagonizing anyone to say, "there are things that we as a community can do better, and here's how we can start." It's very positive. If people feel like they're being antagonized because someone is telling them we can be a better community, they are taking it way too personally.

[–]two__sheds 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

YES! This is exactly the point I've been trying to get across to others and I'm failing miserably at it. Very well put.

[–]overthemountain 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I do find it amusing that you and so many others supporting this classify it as "having empathy for others" while you continually fail to have empathy for the people you are arguing with. How can you argue to be inclusive on one hand while trying to shut people down on the other?

It's especially weird because the "opposition" is not directly opposing the idea, but the place and manner that it was presented. That's what you should be trying to discuss.

[–]Speedupslowdown 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am trying to find instances of original post "shutting people down." Could you point it out for me so I can better understand?

My argument is that /r/boardgames is the place to have this conversation, because we are talking about the way toxic attitudes affect the hobby. It is an aspect of being in the hobby that shouldn't be swept away. People post about tangential things like how to make foamcore inserts and 3d printing, which aren't directly related to boardgames, but we rightfully tolerate those posts because they are relevant to people in the hobby. If I don't want to 3d print my own minis, I don't have to get involved in the conversation. But if I do want to get involved in it, I should learn about it somewhat and try to have a respectful conversation about it.

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

This whole thread is growing quickly and it's getting harder to find some of them. This is a top level comment that I think is terrible. This is another thread that I think went poorly.

The biggest issue for me is that we don't seem capable of having a civil discussion on this topic. I'm not sure if that's because of how it is presented or the topic itself is just too toxic at this point. Every time it's broached it turns ugly fast.

It's not something I've ever dealt with personally (and I am a minority) or witnessed elsewhere, but I'm not so naive to think it isn't a problem somewhere. Not everything bothers me - some things I find egregious and some innocuous and everyone will have a different spectrum in that regard. I'd love to be able to discuss it more but it doesn't seem like something we (as a sub) can do with cool heads.

So what do we do? If every time the subject comes up it turns into a bloodbath, at what point do we just have to table the discussion for some nebulous future time? No one likes the idea of "ignoring" the problem but we certainly aren't solving it with what we're doing, either.

[–]yubhb2 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Posts in r/boardgames that aren't talking about board games is why I stopped posting there.

[–]autovonbismarck 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there's a vitriol filled thread populated by SJWs like, almost every day.

oh wait, no there isn't...

[–]CityWithoutMen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. We are pretty great.

[–]NostalgiaZombie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, that post was not kind and simply asking to be kind.

People aren't rejecting it to be mean and hateful.

They are rejecting coercion.

[–]ASnugglyBear/r/boardgames mod 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

  1. A "removed because it got locked" rule creates the ability for anyone who understand gaming systems to arbitrarily get posts removed by starting fires there. Don't expect that.

  2. A "timing locks and removals after both sides spoke" for an arbitrary amount of sides doesn't seem vaguely usable as a moderation standard.

  3. "Never remove or lock anything" sounds like a recipe for a loud, tire-fire like free-for-all that really betrays the "85% softer than normal reddit" brand of /r/boardgames that is vociferously loved by many.

  4. We are going to be painted as milquetoast, reactionary, feckless or censors no matter what choices we make here. What's that old line about compromises being good when that everyone is somewhat unhappy.

  5. Publicly shaming people in a group rarely helps to get anyone chiller, or less likely to cause problems. The mod team has been trumpeted as the savior of the sub in a /r/metaboardgames post (since deleted) after I moderated a random fistfight, then condemned by the same person (who then sent a "so long and thanks for all the fish" message) when I said "No, we shouldn't ban KIA posters out of hand". Y'all give me whiplash yo. There is such a thing as people experienced existing in a mix of environments and dealing with people stirring shit while letting a lot of stuff go. We're not looking to be your parents, but we are looking to run something that doesn't scare people off out of hand. We're not looking to join your intellectual in-groups, or let your groups run wild over the sub. We are tone policing and making a safe space at once. Deal with it.

  6. We pretty loudly state how to exist here in the rules. Trolling has always been moderated out of places. So if being angry and uncivil is against the rules, and moderating actions trying to make people angry and uncivil is happening, it sounds like to me we're doing our job, and making /r/boardgames about board games.

  7. We do ban people, but we rarely ban them immediately, we do tell people who to improve, or where they're causing problems, and it almost never is "stop feeling like they're going too far" it's "damn dude, please say something else than 'Fuck Wil Wheaton', like you know, about playing games". All the moderation staff and a couple /r/metaboardgames posters have gotten these personalized to them messages about conflicts. That's not censorship, that's conflict resolution. If you've not worked in a place what has that, I'm sorry if the first encounter of it is unpleasant, but all large organizations and clubs do have to do that.

  8. We are more likely to moderate and eventually ban someone who almost every time we see them is involved in acrimonious, negative, controversial stuff as opposed to someone mostly instead talking about miniature painting, the superiority of worker placement and the role of voting to win in the context of war games, then occasionally going off the rails. 99% of people moderated we don't talk to more than 1-2 times a year. We are more likely to moderate the person who seems to only be picking fights. That is because they are constantly being acrimonious, negative, and uncivil, or trolling people, and literally without context, many comments then fit the bill for removal. Not because of their politics. The OP of that particular sub gets moderated as well. Long patters of nothing but being a pill do indicate intent, or functional intent, and do end up counting against you. No one has been getting a pass, and we've done a good job of not reactively taking sides and assuming bad intent, and giving people a chance to prove to us they can or cannot handle the public responsibility of publishing commentary and posts in /r/boardgames. That pace is infuriatingly quick for the person who eventually works themselves out of the sub, and infuriatingly slow for people who constantly fight with them. We definitely do have success stories from this approach.

  9. Moderation is done by moderators, selected by past moderators, because the people appear to have judgement related to context in discussion and other skills needed by the moderation team. If you think the rules for moderation are simple...well, lets say "pain is the game" when you are a moderator. Every nasty thing said here that gets removed we see. Many borderline things we don't remove or do and waffle on, we see, and we struggle with. We have a private subreddit where we go "how do we deal with this, why the can't those two be reasonable about this" so much. We check in with each other, we disagree, and we even sometimes moderate publicly things we think personally we shouldn't be moderating that way. We can't publicly express the nuance because then all of a sudden random sub that disagrees with the exact call gets an link to it and shit hits the fan. Yay. I'd love to be tons more transparent than we are, but reddit is not conducive to that. The takes are hot, low effort, and the tolerance is low.

  10. Locked threads happen primarily because they're a ever burning pile of anger that's off topic to boardgames, or just way too angry. We then look at causes, and address them when possible with people, as we do with report heavy threads devolving into yelling. All the while, the mass of most /r/boardgames folks go "whew, that stopped". When we do address things, many people (again of both sides of the culture wars) go "okay, I can't do that thing I do elsewhere on reddit here." and stop. Others go "how dare you! I will leave then if that's how this gin joint is run". Again, of both sides.

  11. As to the perceived "sides imbalance": If there were conservative folks who put out polished video game reviews and occasionally put in an idea from their side of the culture war like SUSD does with out going over a line that would be one thing. That doesn't appear to exist, or get submitted here, or upvoted if submitted. I know a ton of church going, wonderful folks from my life here in the South who talk like adults about this stuff who'd be wonderful reviewers, but most of them do not do so. Nor do I see anyone making the case "I like this stuff", "This stuff is part of my sexuality", "I like the history of this being treated like it happened and has historically been portrayed" in third party content. People making the third party content who do state these things, often do it reacting to the people they dislike criticizing it rather than issuing a positive, coherent standalone product. One of the allegedly "unbalanced" video series in particular does have a family connection to someone who is directly tied to the aforementioned cultural disputes that isn't really tied to board gaming, which seems to be a reason people focus on them more than the actual video gaming videos (which I think personally think are overproduced and rely on a pretty face and good comedic timing). I've been panned for liking Meeple Like Us...because it basically is the answer to <insert complex social situation in a WSIG> including the "gaming with people who are bothered by brown meeples" occasion. I have also literally gotten anger from the staff of MLU for not moderating the other way. The amount of errant tribalism here is astounding and sometimes frustrating.

  12. I personally dislike basically every video series that doesn't 1> correctly teach me how to play a game without commentary kept till the end and 2> play a game in front of me and 3> allow me to quickly watch it at high speed. I dislike several of the video people you do. Yet, it's my job, and good for the sub, to remove the personal attacks around that. This includes TableTop, SUSD, and more. I literally said angry things about them before the explicit/detailed civility rule was around, and less angry things after it was. But I said it a very small amount of times, and didn't follow around every video trying to get an asterisk. That's called not being tiresome, and called being civil. You do not have to respond to everything every time. You do not need to revisit every discussion every time. I live in the south, have friends and gaming pals of every stripe and persuasion, and I have professionally played traffic cop and more while managing people in a professional setting. I assure you, things are being managed, just because /r/boardgames don't look like the exact standard of cookie cutter past attempts to do something, don't think we're not working. Just because of the format we can't loudly show you how they're working, they are. We're stopping the culture war here decently well, and we're not doing it but hopping on the preferred format of any one side.

  13. If anyone reads this finds yourself saying "why don't I stir up some stuff", I beg of you to find more stimulation in your life, perhaps from a cup of coffee, or a trip to the doctors to gets some meds or talk, or playing a wonderful board game with friends. Properly treating under-stimulation and concentration abnormalities is life changing. I speak from family and personal experience with people diagnosed with minor but real illnesses (physical or mental) that were cratering quality of life and causing them to be more argumentative. Internet trolling may be cheap, but the ability to go about your day creating and being happy is far more fulfilling.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

I generally agree with all this.

Perhaps I missed it, but the thrust of this is considering the possibility that politics posts should be treated like car posts - moderated out. I don't see you really addressing that there. Some things are not allowed here, so why shouldn't divisive politics be one of them if they're causing significant disruption.


Also, I take issue with this following, though it's a side-issue:

As to the perceived "sides imbalance": If there were conservative folks who put out polished video game reviews and occasionally put in an idea from their side of the culture war like SUSD does with out going over a line that would be one thing. That doesn't appear to exist, or get submitted here, or upvoted if submitted.

The opposing position isn't some conflicting ideology, it's no ideology. I'm actually pretty liberal on most issues, this isn't a liberal/conservative thing; it's a progressive/non-progressive thing. For someone to make a video criticizing the political gender approach, there needs to be a critical mass of videos advocating for the political gender approach.

This doesn't change the fact, of course, that there are no (or few) popular critical videos yet.

That being said, if someone is near Chicago and knows how to make a good video and is willing to let the other side be heard, I'm happy to do it.

[–]ASnugglyBear/r/boardgames mod 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd love to send you a book that is only so so, but has the most wonderful discussion on the human brain and how we classify information. Throughout childhood and young adulthood we build up neural nets in our brain called attractors. As these build up, they harden, and we "see the world in those dimensions", literally firing off concepts when things match them. BTW, the book isn't about any of the below, it just had that one attractor section.

Both sides of this see things in terms of their attractors. It's why propaganda culture, and ideology works.

You have an attractor in your brain that sees "red". I share that. Most (but not all) of the people here do too.

You have an attractor in your brain that sees "politics" here, I have one that sees "Stuff that people on the conservative dimension in the social sphere see as politics that would be kept out of discussions that are for everyone", and I have one that says "Stuff that people on the progressive dimension of the social sphere sees as 'finally recognizing how much popular culture craps on them'", that for some god awful department of shitty names called privilege.

It takes a bit of mental effort to let both fire, but people can learn to do this, it's called mindfulness. The building up of a set of mutually contradictory attractors that do let a brain settle on a simple conclusion is called nuance, you, and many people, have this in some areas of their lives, but everyone takes shortcuts here, because you can't function if everything is like that. Constant intellectual discomfort is.....uncomfortable.

However, as this is one of my roles, I do keep both of those there in my mind. It's one of the benefits of being around a lot of very different people, you get to understand them and import their viewpoints into your brain.

politics posts

it's no ideology

The first of these two statements is something your mind has as an attractor. It feels like change, possibly unwanted change from people who are often dicks as you see change and feel at least intellectual discomfort from fiddling with those other ideas and ways of seeing.

The second is you stating "My brain does not see the ideology". You literally just said "I don't have an attractor for that". The fact you don't recognize "no ideology" as "what's pretty standard for an american of my age, as made by books, movies and propaganda", but there is an attractor in your brain too for this stuff. It's just not well labeled to you. You're not mindful of what it represents.

I believe you, and I believe you that the presence of these ideas causes intellectual discomfort.

Lets talk about a somewhat moderate person the "other side" (not someone who conducts war about it on twitter about it, someone moderate):

We do moderate political speech, "vote for X", "here is a board game about Trump", etc. This probably isn't obvious, as it's been moderated away.

They see what you see as "politics posts" as shit that's always gone on to them which has put them in a one down position from you for decades/centuries/for all time, not politics. Some do take political action around it, but that's not the primary goal. They are publicly saying "I don't like this stuff" or "can we find something better/more elaborate" but they are fundamentally having a different pattern match go off. They have been silent in the past about it because there was not a reasonable space to say negative things without retribution.

They see "it's no ideology" as "that person doesn't see how this shits been hurtful to me". They do see an explicit ideology in modern culture. They start throwing out terms like heteronormativity, privilege and white supremacy, as those are the names, to them, of that "no ideology". It's their attractors. And then tribalism comes out where people start retreating to their nice, uncomplicated in-groups because who needs all this intellectual discomfort and "hey did they just call me a racist by implication?" comes up to people

It's all about the different attractors. You both literally see the world in different ways, and of course you like your way. But that doesn't mean we should just fold into one or the other.

Remember how I said the benefits of being around a lot of different people is that you get to understand them and import their viewpoints into your brain? Be around these people, hear their viewpoints, understand how their brain works, and understand their quiet, unsaid attractors as well. Then for the love of god, use that power for good, understanding how everyone is individually pained.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I actually did a lot of cognitive psychology in undergrad, I have a reasonable handle on this stuff.

I don't see these things as "politics posts." I see them as people trying to force their idea of a caring and permissive society on me when I know that their idea completely neglects my needs and the needs of people like me even while it misleadingly purports to represent them, while simultaneously recognizing that my idea of a caring and permissive society doesn't necessarily conform to what they perceive their needs to be either and wishing they would just carve out their little chunk and like they expect me to do, and like I have done, instead of trying to make to general, organic, laissez-faire culture conform to their idea of what a caring society should be like.

And I recognize that you see it differently. But holy shit I wish people who see it like you would add the second part of the way I see it onto how you see it.

Remember how I said the benefits of being around a lot of different people is that you get to understand them and import their viewpoints into your brain? Be around these people, hear their viewpoints, understand how their brain works, and understand their quiet, unsaid attractors as well.

I have already done all that and come to a different conclusion than you. There is no objective correct answer here, and even if there was, the question is impossibly complex and none of us will stumble upon the correct answer via any means but pure chance. Please don't assume that because you have come up with an answer that it is correct, or that it won't hurt people in ways you don't expect.

So do you see now how these "diversity" posts cause exactly the harm to a group of people that the people who are posting them profess to be trying to avoid? They're simply picking one group to care for over another, and that hurts.

[–]ASnugglyBear/r/boardgames mod 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

So do you see now how these "diversity" posts cause exactly the harm to a group of people that the people who are posting them profess to be trying to avoid

Only from intellectual discomfort. Not from abuse. Not from a threat about unchangeable aspects of yourself.

As I mention above, the goal is to "smoosh all y'all" together.

You'd even say, that intellectual discomfort on both sides is a goal. Because it's a sign you're next to one another, smashed together, all uncomfortable together, and you may find a wonderful synthesis in the dialectic.

I strongly suggest to people who feel that they're harmed by this sort of thing to go talk about other parts of games. Not this part of games. They're wonderfully intellectually calming to many of us.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only from intellectual discomfort. Not from abuse. Not from a threat about unchangeable aspects of yourself.

That's not very sensitive.

It's also also wrong on all three counts. People who advocate for this kind of diversity have abused me physically and emotionally due to unchangeable aspects of myself.

You shouldn't assume things about me, and perhaps you should check your privilege.

[–]ASnugglyBear/r/boardgames mod 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

People who advocate for this kind of diversity have abused me physically

In /r/boardgames? We need reports of that if happening to moderate it. Apologies about your abuse.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I wasn't referring to r/boardgames specifically.

But, now that you mention it, I have been called a racist several times in this thread.

[–]flyliceplick 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The opposing position isn't some conflicting ideology, it's no ideology. I'm actually pretty liberal on most issues, this isn't a liberal/conservative thing; it's a progressive/non-progressive thing. For someone to make a video criticizing the political gender approach, there needs to be a critical mass of videos advocating for the political gender approach.

This is the most disingenuous thing I've read all day. The alt right does not contribute any meaningful criticism or commentary on board games. This is for a number of reasons, but I won't say what I think is the real answer and simply point out that in order to do so, one has to be hard-working, well-read, constructive, and capable of serious thought about a subject in order to contribute actual criticism.

"Hurr durr not enough SJW's to spark our anger." isn't going to convince anyone. Nor is "We don't produce media pushing our POV because we don't have one to push."

Part of the problem with why this is so asinine is that the person saying it assumes everyone else is stupid enough to fall for it. You are not some sort of wily conversational fox. You're a guy falling down some stairs with an armful of plates.

That being said, if someone is near Chicago and knows how to make a good video and is willing to let the other side be heard, I'm happy to do it.

I cannot fucking wait.

[–]faintpremonition 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I haven't chimed in a while, but here's my two cents.

I trust the mod community to lock a thread when the argument turns unhealthy, even if I have strong opinions on the topic of the thread.

I didn't read the comments of that thread, which just goes to show that I trust the mods on things like this. If it looked ugly, it doesn't need to be allowed to fester.

[–]bionicbadger 16ポイント17ポイント  (30子コメント)

If you want to discuss boardgames on /r/boardgames then thats great. If you want to discuss how people are shitty to each other, don't do it there. Its not just while playing games that people are shitty to each other, its all the time. Boardgames are an escape from the real world for many people, and bringing in the problems of the outside world and pushing causes is annoying. I'm glad the thread was locked. We don't need nonboardgame discussions in that subreddit.

[–]autovonbismarck 11ポイント12ポイント  (29子コメント)

If you want to discuss how people are shitty to each other, don't do it there. Its not just while playing games that people are shitty to each other, its all the time.

When I read your comment, what I hear is "Because of how I look and the way I speak and present myself, people usually aren't shitty to me while I'm playing boardgames. And i don't want to hear about how people are sometimes shitty to you when you're playing boardgames because of the way you look."

I'd really appreciate it if you took a couple of minutes to think about how it would feel if you were routinely made to feel uncomfortable or excluded in boardgaming stores, conventions or groups.

Then think about how you would feel if somebody politely entreated the rest of the community to respect those feelings, but everybody plugged their ears and chanted "boardgaming is where I go to escape from real shit, so I don't want to hear about it".

[–]bionicbadger 10ポイント11ポイント  (28子コメント)

If you are routinely made to feel uncomfortable or excluded in boardgaming stores, conventions or groups. then I'll wager its not just those situations you are made to feel uncomfortable in. I'd wager that you feel that way in many other situations too. I'm saying that if you want to discuss this stuff, then it should be in some political or society group, not a boardgame discussion group.

And yes, I do play and read about boardgames as an escape and don't want to read about how people are shitty. I can go on any news site and read that stuff, I don't need it thrust in my face everywhere I turn. I'm aware that people suck. Thank you. Can I just have a place where boardgames are discussed? This subreddit is more meta, you can discuss those kinds of things here.

[–]ScaperDeage 9ポイント10ポイント  (15子コメント)

If you are routinely made to feel uncomfortable or excluded in boardgaming stores, conventions or groups. then I'll wager its not just those situations you are made to feel uncomfortable in.

This is likely very true for many people. What is also likely very true is that that these people also want to, like you, play board games to escape from people being shitty. Then they find people in the hobby who are acting shitty. But maybe unlike other aspects in their life, they see that there are also good and kind people in the hobby so they feel brave enough to talk about how they've been treated shitty and how they'd like to see things get better because they believe there is an inherent goodness in the community as a whole.

Maybe it is not an issue for you, but this topic does matter a great deal to others. Yes it is an issue that is wrapped up in society problems that stretch far beyond board game groups, but those problems are not going to be solved on a wide scale. They are going to be solved a little at a time by small groups of people making a difference in their little slice of life.

All anyone who has been on the receiving end of shitty experiences just wants is to have others listen to what they have to say. Instead they so often get attacked for doing so. There has been more than a few occasions I, as a women, wanted to say something and didn't because I didn't want to put up with down votes and negative blow-back. It has happened before to me and it is tiring and discouraging.

I love this hobby. I love playing games. I love talking about games. I know lots of great people from all walks of life who also share this love and are awesome and friendly and do not do shitty things. But I know not everyone is so lucky and it just saddens me to see when someone says they have had bad things happen to them or that we should try harder to promote a friendly gaming environment, they often get attacked for it. And this is why I think we need to talk about this topic every so often. It promotes awareness. If you or anyone else does not want to think about and discuss the matter, then just ignore such threads as you would any others that are not about a topic of personal interest.

[–]overthemountain 3ポイント4ポイント  (14子コメント)

The point is, this isn't a problem that exists exclusively within the board gaming community. It's also not a problem that the board gaming community can solve for the world.

We may as well start posting about climate change and how, if we don't make some changes soon, we won't be able to play board games as half the planet will be underwater, displacing millions.

Is that true? Yes. Is it a problem? Yes. Is it something that is particularly relevant to /r/boardgames? Not really.

I can understand that the topic is important to you. But I would ask - is it important specifically and solely within the context of board games? I think you have some good points, but I imagine this topic could be justified using that same rationale in any subreddit. That's the problem for me - it's far too broad of a topic.

[–]CRUSADERBEAR 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not the person you're replying to but I really wanted to reply here because the general argument you're using is so reductive.

Tabletop gaming is a pretty niche audience. A post about political issues specifically in reference to how they appear within board games is not going to gain traction in a different sub. It's entirely relevant to /r/boardgames because it's discussing how these outside problems affect board gaming, and what we, as people who play (or create) board games, can do to improve the situation.

To make a probably poor analogy, it would be like insisting that no one discuss asmodee's recent mergers because it belongs in /r/business or something like that.

What's most baffling to me though is that even if you want to escape politics, it's not like anyone is obliged to read or engage with threads like the one that was linked, or read comment threads within other threads that deal with politics. Skim over it or collapse the comment thread and move on – it's that easy. Not doing so, and being so vocal about this just comes across as trying to shut down the debate for those who do care.

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I guess the problem I have is that all of these threads end up the same way. This isn't the first one like this. People are often not even arguing he same thing. One side is arguing that the subject doesn't really belong in the sub and the other side acts as if it's an attack on the subject itself.

I'm actually not opposed to having the discussion or trying to escape anything, but I've seen it careen in to a ditch so many times that we have to think about how we want to address it. If every post about Asmodee's business practices got ugly fast I'd want to reconsider their validity in the sub as well.

I knew as soon as I saw the post that it was going to be a total shitshow in the comments. When it becomes that obvious, we need to find some way to address it.

I know I'm kind of hitting some different points with this reply, but I think you understand where I'm coming from a little better.

[–]CRUSADERBEAR 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It seems like you agree with me that /r/boardgames is the right place to discuss this then? Because not talking about it isn't a solution, I feel like we can only improve the tone of the discussion by being more vocal ourselves rather than allowing the most extreme or intolerant opinions to dominate the discussion.

[–]overthemountain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I personally wouldn't mind the discussion, however, it doesn't seem like the sub can handle it. The topic has come up a few times this past year and every time it seems to turn in to a huge mess. At what point do we acknowledge that it is doing more harm than good? What you're describing sounds less like a conversation and more like a shouting match.

Perhaps there is a better way to present the idea that will go over better, but so far, all we have are a trail of locked threads and a lot of angry people.

[–]ScaperDeage 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't know how it is not relevant to board games at all. It affects game groups and the places we play at and who we play with. Board gaming is a very social activity so social issues will be more relevant and talked than something like climate change. Maybe if we played games with hurricanes that would be different, but we play games with people.

Yeah, sure, a bunch of board gamers cannot change the world when it comes to this problem, but we can figure out ways to do it in our community. Hell, we have been. Publishers have listened and some of them are even known and loved for being super awesome at promoting diversity in a very respectful way. We'd have never gotten where we are now if we didn't talk about this social issue. I'd also like to think if someone learns to more open and respectful within their little community they will also be more open respectful in the rest of their life. Spread the love and whatnot.

[–]overthemountain 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm not saying that "it is not relevant to board games at all". It certainly is relevant but not exclusively so. If segregation still existed in the US then segregation in board game stores and gaming groups would be relevant, but I'm not sure if that's a problem for board gamers to tackle directly. It's part of a larger political issue.

[–]ScaperDeage 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Just because something is not exclusively relevant doesn't mean we should just ignore it. As I said, people who deal with the sexist and racist shit all day also want to play games and have fun and forget how messed up the world is. If we can do something to make the hobby and community a welcoming place for more people, what is so bad about trying to do so?

[–]overthemountain 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The real question is whether or not these posts are actually solving anything. They currently seem to be doing more harm than good. I believe the intention is good but the end result is always a disaster.

No one likes the idea of ignoring these kids of problems, but we obviously need to find a better way to address it. What we're doing now isn't working.

[–]ScaperDeage 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That might be somewhat true, but we're also not going to find any solutions by not attempting to talk about them. I'd really like to see a thread that is purely just people talking about the incidents they've faced in the hobby and what kinds of things make them uncomfortable. Now I also expect many of the people who are just posting about their experiences will get trolled and/or dismissed, which then often devolves into angry bullshit. Which to me is the most depressing part of this reoccurring situation on our subreddit.

But if enough people choose to tell jerks who come in and try and start shit to just to discredit the validity of people's experiences to "stop being assholes" that would be a good start. It might not make them go away completely, but it will show those who are having the vitriol thrown at them that the community doesn't accept assholes. And that can mean a huge deal to those who are feeling ostracized in the community because of their race or gender.

[–]Inoko 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think your point of view is quite interesting and good. I'd agree -discussion climate change in a baordgame subreddit seems really weird. Perhaps if it was in the context of a new company popping up that would help control climate change by shipping boardgames or producing boardgames or something in a new way it might make sense.

I also think you're right that discussions about people being shitty to other boardgamers and how to be inclusive as boardgamers aren't going to solve the problem on a worldwide scale. I would also say that I think you're missing the point people are making - they don't think it will fix the world. They're trying to help boardgames be more approachable for people who kinda get dumped on everywhere. It's understandable that you don't want that in what is effectively your escape from reality, but I think the disconnect here is that these people don't HAVE an escape from reality because of it. They're trying to create one in a small area of their life that has some generally awesome people.

I think there's a fundamental disagreement on "is this particularly relevant to /r/boardgames" (and boardgaming culture at large) between yourself and these people. To you it's a large social issue and work should start at the top or in political/societal/cultural discussion spaces and filter down and to them the opposite is true - create change in microcultures and move upwards.

Personally I'm not sure which way works best (I'd probably say "both") and I also understand that it sucks to basically walk in to your favourite space and find a sign up that says "Don't be a dick," and it's like "Hey, I'm not and I haven't been, why's the sign there, that's kinda treating me like I'm a dick and all I wanna do is relax here."

[–]overthemountain 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Personally seeing people talk about inclusiveness doesn't really bother me. I'm trying to use some empathy to understand where other people are coming from, though.

What does bother is me is when people make these counter arguments and the "inclusivity" people get all bent out of shape about it and treat the opposition like degenerates. It's like they pretend to want a discussion but really they just want to lecture everyone.

The arguments are generally not even about inclusiveness, but about the appropriateness of the topic for the sub. This post was meant to discuss that further, but even then it's mostly full of name calling and straw man arguments rather than trying to address the topic.

[–]Inoko 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, that's a thing that can happen. I did touch on appropriateness for the sub and why people would disagree with you that it's not (I.E.: your argument that it's better discussed in a larger political/social/cultural context) and as I've given my thoughts time to get into an order... I think that having the discussion in smaller cultures is probably actually the fastest way to enact a global change. That said, there are probably a lot of people on the side of achieving that change who throw temper tantrums when others don't listen to them quickly. I'd say it's understandable (they're trying to make things more inclusive, have empathy, etc.) but I'd also say it's understandable that a lot of people feel attacked when the discussion comes up (I'm already including people / this is driving people away / etc.). Ultimately at some point some people are going to lose out and have a negative experience.

Thus, personally, I think it's appropriate to kindly remind people that [X] has a legacy (or even current state) of being exclusive for unfair (and possibly invisible) reasons in places where [X] discussion happens. You disagree and feel that should happen in another broader concept (although please correct me if I'm wrong). Ultimately I don't agree with you, because I don't think that larger context actually happens (or actually will happen) without the smaller context happening first. I doubt a discussion on the internet will change either of our minds, though - Agreed on that?

[–]autovonbismarck 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

What I'm saying is that if you read a gently worded appeal to think about the feeling of others, and how your words and actions affect them... And your first reaction is "no, fuck those people! this is my happy place!"

Maybe you're part of the problem?

[–]bionicbadger 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

I try not to be shitty to others. I play games to escape. I read about games to have fun and relax, and not have causes thrown in my face. If I'm a problem because I want to read about boardgames and not women's rights on a boardgame forum, where do you suggest I go to read and discuss about boardgames only?

[–]JimmyDabomb 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Look, here's a legitimate complaint. Some people often boast that one team or player is raping others. Sometimes they even use it as a threat. This usually isn't malicious and it's not meant to be taken literally. However, for some, especially those who have been traumatized, it's incredibly difficult to hear, in the same way that talking about killing someone's mother would be hard to hear if someone's family member had been harmed.

The problem comes that anytime this is mentioned, rather than being respectful, people choose to be assholes, and will defend their right to say these things and often mock the person making the request.

How can you politely convey that sometimes you can hurt someone's feelings, even if you don't mean to?

[–]bionicbadger 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sigh. I just want to stay on topic and read about games. I don't want to read about how someone feels because of their gender because its not relevant to board games. Its a different issue. There are a million other places to discuss gender issues. Your comment about a team or player "raping" others happens in pro and amateur sports, video games, kids playing in the playground, etc. Its not a boardgame thing, its more a societal problem.

And if I hurt your feelings because I say I want to stay on topic, I can only shake my head.

[–]JimmyDabomb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why did I say you hurt my feelings?

Also what's wrong with having hurt feelings? Feelings are normal.

Also, when and where would you like to hear this discussion? Because it really doesn't work if people say "hey, when you do this, it can have unintended consequences." if the only place where they can say it is places where no one has to listen.

[–]autovonbismarck 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

I actually don't have any suggestions... but boy, I hope you go somewhere else.

[–]commander_raker 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Social justice playbook.

Step 1: we want build an "inclusive" "diverse" community.

Step 2: if you don't agree with my opinions then get out.

[–]autovonbismarck 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I thought the whole point of this post was that we shouldn't have to acknowledge other peoples feelings or listen to their problems? I don't feel like listing to this dude's whining, so I'd like him to leave.

Sounds like me and him are on the same page!

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well then you missed the point. That was the point of the original post that was locked. The point of THIS post was to discuss whether those kinds of posts belong in /r/boardgames or not.

[–]bionicbadger 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, I'll go back to /r/boardgames where boardgames are the topic.

[–]zz_x_zz 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have a rather permissive attitude towards internet moderation. I think the job of a mod should be to remove content that is not relevant to the forum. That's it. Obviously this forum disagrees with me, but the question I have is - do posts like these have anything to do with boardgames? Personally, I'm not sure, but if they do then they should be left up and open to debate. If they do not then remove them immediately just as if somebody made a post about their cat.

From an entertainment standpoint, I must admit that I do look forward to these types of posts. 90% of the sub is a very dull and repetitive shopping guide. It's post after post about what game should I get for my girlfriend (Patchwork), what's a good conflict game for people who hate conflict (Kemet), who's a good reviewer to help me buy more games (Rahdo), and, LOL, does anybody else here have Acquisition Disorder (Yes). I actually enjoy these debates because at least people put some energy into them. It's fun.

On the topic of inclusion - I find it hard to wrap my mind around what exactly is being discussed. I used to think the word related to interpersonal dynamics - being warm, inviting, kind, understanding. I like to believe that I strive towards these qualities. I've played games with all sorts of people and would never deny anybody the opportunity to game if they want to game.

It seems the word has a much different, political usage that, like identity politics, I struggle to understand. I'll risk the irony of going off topic in a post about what is and is not relevant, but identity politics has had an absolutely disastrous effect on literature and poetry. We've never recovered and we never will. Fighting against it is a tiring, hopeless battle, so I maintain of policy of detachment for my own sanity.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I disagree with some of that, but agree with most of it. Either way, I respect the way you look at it. commiserate with you about the effect of identity politics on literature, and agree that fighting it is tiresome and boring. I would like to see more varied posts as well. I just think there should be a few exceptions.

An analogy:

The free market works because humans are bad at planning markets. Really bad at it. But a totally free market is shitty, because things like slavery happen. A market should be regulated from laissez-faire-up, not deregulated from planned-back.

Moderation is similar. A light touch is key. I just think very contentious political topics like this should be a rarity at most. This is one of those few things where precise moderation can add a lot. Identity politics can harm board games, too.

[–]flyliceplick 13ポイント14ポイント  (25子コメント)

/u/ReverseSolipsist is not a boardgamer. He's taking generic alt right arguments and applying them to board games. He's a good shit stirrer. That is it.

[–]PaxCecilia 15ポイント16ポイント  (15子コメント)

Not sure if you're just trying to stir the pot but this is definitely an unfair statement. He's been around /r/boardgames for a while.

Or is that meant as more of a No True Scotsman jab?

edit: eh, I guess you can look through his comment history for yourself. I can only really find posts in these sorts of topics :\ I recognized the username but I guess not from a positive association. In fact I'm tempted to delete this comment. I understand people can lurk subreddits (I definitely lurk in most subs I frequent) but the only contributions I can find are posts exactly about political topics. uh thanks for the gold though I'm a bit confused as to why...

[–]Ryanwins 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

I didn't give you the gold, but looking back at your statement, checking the evidence, re-evaluating your point and then coming back and letting everyone know you have changed your opinion based on the facts at hand is exactly the sort of person the world needs more of.

It's ok to have an opinion. It's ok to have a contradictory opinion, but make sure to check your facts and if your facts are wrong then allow your self to be wrong. far too many people don't know how to be wrong.

[–]flyliceplick 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. No need to delete. :-)

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, I don't care about the original guy, but since you seem to be willing to give people of the benefit of the doubt, I don't mind talking to you.

I'm at work now. How would you feel if I showed you that I have a recently kickstarted boardgame with me right now, at my desk? Would that matter to you?

Or is the fact that I'm mostly intellectually interested in ethically controversial subjects just what turns you off?

[–]PaxCecilia 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

It would certainly make a lot more sense. It would be fairly fucking lame to go through all of this effort if you had absolutely no stake in the argument (i.e. if you don't give a fuck about the /r/boardgames community but just want to argue about social acceptance issues). Some might find it hard to believe that you actually do care about the quality and scope of community discussion if your post history within /r/boardgames doesn't show that you use /r/boardgames to discuss board games.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I just sent you a PM, since I don't really want to post a photo of my office.

I would appreciate it if you confirmed here that I am, indeed, enough of a board gamer to have a kickstarted board game with me at work.

The thing is, I don't talk in r/boardgames a lot. I'm mostly a lurker in every sub, except for controversial ethical issues I have an interest in. That's why that's all you see in my comments. I would really, really love to be able to continue to lurk in r/boardgames without gender issues popping up. I like it here. This is where I escape (also r/rocketleague).

If gender issues are highly relevant to a subject, I'm glad to see them discussed. They do, though, get injected in a ton of shit where they don't belong. I think this is one of those cases.

[–]JimmyDabomb 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the other person's point wasn't that you were a boardgamer, but that you don't spend much time on /r/boardgames talking about boardgaming. Thus your stake in this conversation is lower.

[–]PaxCecilia 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can confirm: jealous of playing Xia at work.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you kind sir or madam.

[–]eviljelloman 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

This is the exactly the point I have argued. Others elsewhere have said "banning one side is not the solution" but I argue that it is, when one side is made up of deplorable people. OP is an alt right troll and it's shameful that /r/boardgames has given him a voice. This is not the free press - the community has every right to censor out shitty people.

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What makes this person "shitty"? The fact that they don't agree with you? You have to love the irony of the people acting like the champions of inclusivity calling for a ban on people they don't agree with.

You can comb my comment history if you'd like. You'll probably find that I'm a fairly strong liberal so it won't be as easy to dismiss me as some "alt right troll".

The point you're missing is that this isn't an argument against inclusion, it's an argument about /r/boardgames being the right place to have that discussion. I don't know if you are unwilling or unable to see that.

[–]PaxCecilia 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's also a discussion on whether mods are censoring opinions they do not agree with. If nothing else, his history shows that they don't :P

[–]overthemountain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's fine to explore the possibility, and even reasonable considering that some mods (not here) have done that in the past. Nothing wrong with asking the question when it's relevant as long as you can accept a reasonable response.

[–]RadicalDog 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've disagreed with /u/ReverseSolipsist a lot today. But I think you're tarnishing him unfairly, and in the process giving him 'ammunition'. Prove people wrong with incisive arguments, don't slur them, or we all lose.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

You see how many more upvotes he gets for saying what he does? He's advocating for censoring people who disagree with them and calling them racists, above and beyond doing this while saying he opposes toxicity. And people who agree with you are loving it.

This is authoritarianism disguised as inclusivity. This is precisely why a lot of us object to it. We see what's going on. This kind of behavior is much too prevalent among "diversity" advocates; you guys need to start ejecting your own bad actors, rather than giving them advice.

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This feels like it's kind of bordering on witch hunting.

[–]Zozur 8ポイント9ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yelling at each other over comments doesn't advance the discussion or change anything, it just makes people angry and divides a community.

Diversity and inclusion is a cultural issue and something that we need to figure out, but r/boardgames isn't the appropriate place for that discussion.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

I agree.

But /r/boardgames would need to handle that appropriately. In that case these "diversity" threads shouldn't come up at all. So far that isn't how this is going.

I would be in favor of a blanked "diversity" politics ban. Maybe all politics, I don't know. But definitely "diversity" politics.

[–]RadicalDog 13ポイント14ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm going to categorically disagree with a ban on a specific political stance such as "diversity politics". (Let's be honest, it's not like many people are making posts to say that we shouldn't focus on diverse characters etc, so this is a single-stance ban). I don't particularly agree with banning politics at large, since what do you do when a game like Secret Hitler or Twilight Struggle promotes that kind of discussion?

I don't think the original post should be locked, but I don't think /r/boardgames needs to be a safe space away from challenging topics that you don't agree with.

[–]Zozur 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Removing the thread outright would just lead to outrage and more drama.

Locking the thread but leaving it as is allows the idea to spread and people to discuss it on their own terms in a more appropriate time and place.

It's one of those cases where there isn't really a good option for mods.

[–]RadicalDog 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

I have no interest in getting involved in the specific discussion, but on principle I want to see it left open. I basically get the flip side; the mods usually deal with spam and some quibbles, and moderating extended political discussion is a whole different beast.

I'm not even sure if anyone will change their mind. People talking online are very stubborn. I still think the discussion should be unlocked, but with the acknowledgement that it will be more work than it's worth for the mods.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't want /r/boardgames to become r/boardGamerGate. So I don't want any discussion on this.

But, on principle, I agree with you. I would like all discussion to remain open. I just think, in this case, that this discussion should happen somewhere else.

[–]RadicalDog 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't want /r/boardgames to become r/boardGamerGate. So I don't want any discussion on this.

Classic slippery slope, there. The mods don't want to deal with a nasty comment thread, but leave it up with both sides intact. Gamergate's mod issue was that posts were getting removed outright to paint one side only*. So these are not equivalent.

*(Which was then used as a lightning rod to fuel tons of sexism and lose any moral high ground. Let's hope that doesn't happen here either.)

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

True. And that's why the slippery slope is apt.

That's why this thread exists. I want to ensure that what happened in /r/gaming doesn't happen here. So I'm pointing out the slope, I'm pointing out that it is indeed slippery, and I'm trying to prevent us from stepping onto it.

[–]RadicalDog 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay. So you don't want mods to start censoring one side. That's easy to agree with; personally I don't think it happened here, either.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think that what happened. I'm saying that, in the past when this has happened, it looked precisely like this in the beginning.

As I said, I want to head this off at the pass. I saw this coming for a while. The next step is the crucial one. The next step needs to be the correct one, or we will step onto that slippery slope.

[–]luquaum 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The mods opened that post in the first place. It was started by a mod. This is not the first time the mods have opened a safe space post.

[–]saikron 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes we should be allowed to discuss this, but I think the post itself and many of the comments indicate that discussion is not what they want to do. OP wants to tell other people what they're doing is wrong and that they should do things some other, obviously correct (/s) way of doing them.

Reddit commenters in general also don't want to discuss topics other than OP's mom. Starting things off with a critical post is just raising alarm bells for trolls and sensitive people.

I think if that OP wanted a discussion it would have been framed more along the lines of "This is what my group does and this is why we think this is the right thing to do." This makes it less critical and more self-reflective and removes the assumption that those bullet points are simply correct.

[–]TheSpriteFox 2ポイント3ポイント  (28子コメント)

Wow, forgive my ignorance, but this has precedent?

[–]sciencewarrior 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

I remember there were some heated "inclusion vs. freedom of speech" discussions around the slaves in Five Tribes when the game was launched released, and again when Days of Wonder decided to replace them with fakirs.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (20子コメント)

In gaming specifically, r/gaming did it with this issue exactly. Of course, there is more to it, and it's not perfectly analogous, but then nothing is.

It eventually caused the subs /r/gamerghazi and /r/kotakuinaction to spawn (/r/kotakuinaction spawned in response to /r/gaming censorship, /r/gamerghazi spawned as a response to r/kotakuinaction). Just go there and see if that's what you want /r/boardgames to be like.

[–]TheSpriteFox 1ポイント2ポイント  (19子コメント)

That's awful.

Is your read on this that it's a problem with moderator culture, or something else?

Because I've already seen what looks like some fairly aggressive comment removal and it confuses me.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (18子コメント)

What happened is that mods modded out one side. Anyone who disagreed with the diversity platform was censored, while everyone who agreed was allowed to advance the idea.

It started with locking and removing entire comment threads, just like this. That's why I'm worried. I want to head this off at the pass.

People on both sides are toxic. A ton of people on the "diversity" side believe they have the moral high-ground and treat people who disagree with them as moral degenerates, and accusations of sexism abound. People who disagree with that position become indignant, and a bunch of them behave like fucking children, as people do when they're accused of doing something taboo (sexism, of course).

I wish we could have this conversation here, but I just don't think we can. I think it will ruin the sub.

[–]uhhhclem 6ポイント7ポイント  (17子コメント)

People who actually oppose diversity are moral degenerates, which complicates the matter.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (15子コメント)

One can reasonably oppose diversity; for example, firing only white people in a layoff round because they are disproportionately represented. I believe the vast majority people who are accused of "opposing diversity" really just opposed "forced" or "engineered" diversity to the exclusion of other valuable things, like liberty, justice, and fairness.

We can never have a reasonable conversation if you make the blanket statement that people who disagree with you are immoral by definition.

[–]uhhhclem 3ポイント4ポイント  (14子コメント)

That's not opposing diversity, that's opposing injustice. (It's also opposing fiction.)

And of course you can have a conversation with people who are immoral. For instance, I talk with people who think my belief systems are immoral all the time. It may be a contentious conversation, but it is not inevitably unproductive.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, that's opposing injustice, but it's FRAMED as opposing diversity.

And yes, of course you can have a literal conversation. I mean you are very unlikely to have a productive one.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

Also, here is an example of opposing pure diversity:

Say, for some reason, I have no black friends. I have enough friends right now, but I meet a black person I get along with. It occurs to me that I should befriend him for the sake of diversity - then I decide, no, I oppose diversity simply for diversity's sake. I don't know why, but it feels wrong to befriend someone so that I can have a more diverse group of friends as an end.

I think that's perfectly reasonable. So it is okay to oppose diversity as an end, rather that a means, in at least some situations.

[–]OutlierJoe 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is an example of someone being a bad person.

Maybe instead of trying to view your friends as a quota of diversity, you view them as people. If that black person is someone you get along with, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN BRINGING RACE AS A CONSIDERATION YOU PIECE OF... AGH:HEWGTIOUFO: R YUIOQ#OUIQ

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

We don't control what thoughts arise.

This actually happened to me once for a specific reason. A conservative gay person told me that progressives don't really support gay people if they aren't progressives. If that's true it bothers me, but since I'm not gay I can't really know that, and I know better than to trust one person.

So later that week I met a gay dude and asked him about it. He was cool, and it occurred to me that if I made friends with him I'd have a gay friend, which would be useful, but would also just be good because my friends would be more diverse. Then I though, "No, that's shitty."

Which is, you know, human. So why are you all-capsing about it?

[–]uhhhclem 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

And what makes you think that this is a distinction that is even worth making? Hint: you're intellectualizing a problem that doesn't affect you directly.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You said

People who actually oppose diversity are moral degenerates

It shows that you're wrong. You can't just say, "if you think this, then you are a moral degenerate" for high-level things like this. But people keep treating them as if you can.

[–]linguotgr 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Recently Marvel fired all of their male writers for Jessica Jones to 'diversify', so it's hardly fiction.

[–]luquaum 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's opposing diversity and then there's discrimination against a major group. Both are not okay imo.

[–]potatohNO 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

what the fuck was this thread all about. the fact it wasn't removed immediately makes me want to unsub.

the whole tone of the OP was really condescending, and jumping on some bullshit political bandwagon that doesn't even exist in freaking board games. it's board games. groups of people get together to have fun. trying to push this fake agenda is creating an issue where there wasn't one

this post made me so fucking angry. infact, fuck it, i'm unsubbing from /r/boardgames

[–]uhhhclem 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

Look, it's clear that the moderators of r/boardgames have chosen the Special Olympics as their model.

And really, given how much anger boils up from the heart of entitlement every time someone mentions that people are actually suffering, who can blame them? Reddit's a bastion of wounded white male privilege, and these are guys who don't want to hear any of that shit. They've got enough problems with girls putting them in the friend zone and this story they heard about that one guy who some girl falsely accused of rape or something.

These guys have a lifetime of not getting past the first post. But they know how to throw tantrums. That's one thing they're good at.

Well, how do you keep tantrums from spoiling everyone's fun? It's simple: Everybody gets a hug at the end.

If that's not something you can tolerate, go play elsewhere.

[–]Carighan 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Your post actually perfectly exemplifies why people dislike these posts.

Do you realize what you do as part of that post?

[–]uhhhclem 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, I'm completely unaware of the fact that I'm saying things that some people might find unpleasant. I'm sure that if I knew that the contemptible people I'm talking about were unhappy being described as such I'd be horrified.

[–]Carighan -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

So what about all the other people you describe as such, which are probably the giant majority? And who, you know, really don't get why they're being lumped into the same basket?

I'm just saying, they might react negatively to being antagonized. Possibly. Maybe.

[–]Ryanwins 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If i were not poor I would give you gold.

[–]Trikk 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

As you said, this has happened to countless other subcultures before and their methods are well-known by now. Just remain vigilant and get your posts in before the lock so that both sides of the argument are as visible as possible; let people decide which side is right by reading and reflecting. I think people showed up with reasonable counterarguments to the OP despite claims likes:

Some of these comments make me sad.

or

[...] the fact that people are hellbent on finding ways (sometimes partially logical, often not) to disagree [...]

They are trying to convince people to not bother finding out what both sides have to say, but it's failing.

[–]RadicalDog 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

their methods

Perpetuating an us-vs-them situation is the wrong approach if you want dialogue.

[–]Trikk 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Again, this is not a case of someone trying to establish a consensus. This is people who jump everywhere from metal music to atheism in order to lecture a specific demographic about what evil bigots they are. They can tolerate us as part of the subculture, but not anywhere near leadership or prominent roles.

The particular strand we are dealing with now originated with Occupy Wall Street, where some people introduced "the progressive stack" in order to shut up the most active and driven members of the movement. Seeing the collapse of such a powerful and important grassroots movement due to "diversity" and "anti-bigotry" woke me and many others up the danger of this ideology and the necessity of fighting it.

Now, many people are ignorant of the backstory so to them it seems kinda obvious to root for inclusiveness. They don't know what battles have been fought, what agenda they are pushing for or what the stakes are. This is politicized to the core and supporting a movement that wants to remove - not simply add other - elements to the hobby is highly misguided if you actually want true diversity.

[–]luquaum 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not a dialog that was wanted by them though was it? The mods basically opened a post and then locked it once it got to the front page.

[–]spotH3D 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

I found the original post tiresome, preachy, and insulting.

It is not a subject I'll ever have an interest in on r/boardgames, I don't like identity politics, PCness, etc.

Having said that, I see no reason it can't exist, but if that sort of stuff drives up vitrol in the sub, then it is harmful.

I don't go to r/boardgames to read about the importance of diversity and being PC.

I would hope they keep the politics crap out of r/boardgames, I don't want to read it whether I agree with it or not. Strident ideologues are the worst and we should not be encouraging them.

[–]Carighan 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

The insulting part was actually worse because it makes someone reading it feel like they're part of a problem.

As if we should all feel bad now and go and fix it. No wonder people react negatively to it. The lion share will be perfectly happy and fair gamers who couldn't give a rat's ass about (for example) who made their games and what gender, skin color or sexual orientation they have, hence by not even caring enough to find out being close or as fair as possible.
Yet all the same, they get the speak about how they really ought to do something about it. Despite living the example already. Yeah, I'd feel insulted, too.

[–]uhhhclem 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't like identity politics, PCness, etc.

That's your privilege.

[–]large__father 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's my opinion that both extremes hurt their positions by resorting to toxicity and goading/being goaded by their counterparts. I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here again, the moderates are the ones who have meaningful discussions about these things because they are still open to compromise.

The polarization of both sides of this argument and others are what leads to toxic battlegrounds. If you believe so strongly in your opinion that there is no sway to it then you shouldn't post as it's no longer a discussion but a shouting match. Debates require give and take along with empathy of the other side's point of view and concerns.

It is equally distasteful to hear the left leaning suggest that by not agreeing with the change they desire that you not fit within polite society as it is to hear right leaning people arguing that inclusion and diversity is somehow ruining everything they know and love.

The truth in these arguments is generally found in the middle ground. The middle ground is rarely heard these days because it's constantly shouted over by one side or the other for not being as on their side as they. Reddit among other social networks is particularly bad for creating polarization because the system encourages you to seek out the like minded and Reddit in particular encourages you to vote as one mind for content you enjoy. This echo chambering ramps up vitriol until it explodes, typically in subreddits like /r/boardgames where two people who may not otherwise come in contact have joined bubbles.

Neither extreme helps themselves with the subtle or not so subtle aggressive tones of their posts. I try to discuss things reasonably and if i have let my temper get out of control i apologize. For it to be a conversation you need to keep a level head and try to listen to the other opinion and provide calm and reasonable counter points. It may often start here and then within 3 posts it's name calling.

I think these issues are important to talk about. I talk about them regularly and i would gladly talk about them on /r/boardgames as I've done in the past (i think reasonably). However i will refuse to talk to a person of an extreme opinion. They often show their inability to be reasoned with quite early and i will not spend my time trying to have a conversation with someone trying to proselytize.

[–]Vysetron 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem isn't that the thread was locked. The problem is that it was locked and left up for everyone to read. If it's appropriate for the board, leave it and the comments open. Otherwise nuke it. Doing this halfway has implications on the integrity of the mods.

[–]CityWithoutMen 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would suggest that simply sweeping it under the rug and act like it never happened is way worse. Let people see it, and see why it was locked. An object lesson.

As far as integrity goes, it shows they won't hide anything they think will make them look bad, or create some kind of false image of how the sub really behaves. So, good for them.

[–]Mountainhawk98 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would honestly prefer the inclusion/safety discussion to happen here, and just remove it from the main sub altogether.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is perfectly acceptable to me.

[–]C3Gaming 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. All these threads allow for is angry thought masturbation for people involved. The people who frequent these threads have already taken a side, and are just looking to validate their opinion.

[–]luquaum 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This rings true and makes the mods being the ones posting this all the more important within that context.

[–]just_testing3 4ポイント5ポイント  (17子コメント)

I'm sorry, I am a bit out of the loop here. Why is this topic talked about? I just want to play and enjoy board games.

Is this about women in board gaming? Minorities in board gaming? The original OP didn't clarify it, or I've missed it. Is it not politically correct for me to enjoy a game that a woman might not enjoy? (not sure if I even own any games that would fall into this category)

Sorry for my ignorance, maybe someone can clear it up for me.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

[–]just_testing3 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'm sorry, I visited these subs and glanced over them, but I just saw some election stuff, video gaming stuff, and so on. Nothing board game or directly 'inclusion'-related. I mean, you tell me about the censorship -and I can see the locked thread-, but I don't understand what is censored in the first place. Like, what is the original OP even talking about. Is this a US related issue?

[–]qwints 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

Very short summary - entertainment spaces have been in a culture war for a long time that has heated up over the last five years or so. One aspect of that culture war happened in spaces dedicated to video games. It had long been the consensus that multiplayer online video gaming had a lot of toxic behavior. After a lot of generic calls to behave better, some people started talking about the problem in language connected with a particular sociological model. Other people who were politically opposed to that model heavily criticized them, claiming that the first group was trying to impose their politics on a non-political area. In the ensuing exchanges, people engaged in a lot of bad behavior and several subcultures fragmented in various ways centered on that controversy.

So now, anytime someone in an entertainment space speaks or writes in a way that resembles that controversy, a lot of people are afraid that a similar fight will break out in their community.

Background reading:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wheatons-law
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/anita-sarkeesian
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

[–]just_testing3 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ah, this clears up quite a bit. I know about that toxic behavior in online games and online in general (when someone turns out to be a woman). But isn't that because of the anonymity? Isn't it different when people sit together at the same table to play a board game? There are probably bad people in every group, but is this an issue that gets blown out of proportions?

Sorry for the follow up questions and thanks for your answer!

[–]qwints 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're right that taking away the online and anonymous aspects changes the equation quite a bit, but you can (and do) see similar tensions around conventions and game stores where strangers meet up to play games.

I recently had an experience where one person objected to another person using the word "girl" to refer to an adult female. The speaker was annoyed at this objection. After a contentious discussion, they let it drop. There are different thoughts as to how a convention or store should handle a situation like that, and there haq been an intense debate over if they should adopt policies regarding conduct in general and, if so, what those policies should look like and how they should be enforced.

There was a pretty infamous incident in the tech community that shows how big that type of disagreement can become. A person at a conference overheard a joke that they thought was offensive. Their reaction to that became a very huge incident, after which both the joker and the person who thought the joke was offensive lost their jobs.

[–]just_testing3 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seems there is no upper limit to 'political correctness' and this is an issue that some people love to escalate. I now partially understand why the thread on /r/boardgames got locked. It just seems to invite drama with both sides heating up against each other.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm impressed at how fair your summary is. This issue is not associate with fair assessments.

I take issue with one thing:

It had long been the consensus that multiplayer online video gaming had a lot of toxic behavior. After a lot of generic calls to behave better, some people started talking about the problem in language connected with a particular sociological model.

That leaves out most of the important things. The call to reduce toxic competitive gaming culture was a smaller part of what the people with the "particular sociological model" were advocating for; I would say they wouldn't consider it the most important issue.

But anyway, it's impossible to summarize this in a way that pleases everyone. You got pretty close, though.

[–]qwints 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Thanks. For the most part, I do think the [progressive/feminist/"SJW"] people thought their proposals were designed to and would fix things that everyone would acknowledge were problems. I agree that many people disagreed with that assessment. It's basically impossible to discuss specific examples, because the whole debate is settled by how you frame the discussion.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think they believed their proposals appropriately addressed things everyone would acknowledge were problems as well. I think the issues arose when people had legitimate grievances with their methods and/or assertions, and the [progressive/feminist/"SJW"] people generally refused to entertain that disagreement, instead opting to insist that everyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Even before the refusal to acknowledge dissent of their ideas there were childish and unreasonable responses to it, but that's to be expected in any sufficiently large group of people (especially one containing so many literal children). The thing that really prevents honest discussion is the refusal to believe that you may be wrong about some things, or that you should modify your ideas.

But this is kind-of off-topic. I'm just spitballing about the ultimate cause with you because I'm nervous the same thing is about to happen here.

[–]qwints 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

No worries, it's an interesting discussion.

Obviously "legitimate grievances" and "refused to entertain" settles the debate. A ton of people in the discourse would probably describe their "side" as having legitimate grievances that the other side "refused to entertain." I think it's fundamentally reasonable to talk about social norms in public spaces and to have disagreements about what those norms should be and how they should be enforced. I also think that online communities have been awful at having those discussions..

I agree you're right to be nervous - the locked thread's OP was clearly drawing from one side of the culture war ("problematic" "unsafe" and "inclusive" leap out). Many of the comments came from the other (if you don't like it don't but it, focus on the games, stop telling people what to think). On the other hand, the BGG forums have frequently threatened to break out into culture war, but never quite seem to have a meltdown and the con is running strong.

[–]cybelechild 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the replies go against OP. I think locking a thread is much better than deleting it - of course only after both sides have had a say. There should be a discussion of course - it shouldnt be different than any other thread.

[–]Quigsy 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't we just call a spade a spade, recognize this as being a fearful reaction to Trump being elected and move on?

[–]PelicanCan 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I have not seen a better summary of the situation than the mod one at the top of the post:

Specifically, people don't disagree that people should not be shitty to each other, but the argument is going to split into two groups:

  • We should actively foster an inclusive environment in our hobby.

  • Market forces will do that automatically, and stop telling people what they can/can't create.

The anger of these two groups is feeding off of each other in a wholly unproductive manner.

I don't mind posts about how specific people have managed to be more inclusive, but I really don't want to see the culture wars come to /r/boardgames

[–]Speedupslowdown 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

But don't you see how saying "I don't want to see the culture wars on this subreddit" is just another way of saying you want to ignore the problems that some people in the community have?

If we can't talk about it, we can't fix it.

[–]overthemountain 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

But we don't seem to be fixing anything, just making lots of people mad. Every time someone posts something like this it goes the exact same way. I'm really not sure what it was supposed to accomplish. These preachy overarching grand posts have always done more harm then good.

[–]Speedupslowdown 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think just talking about it should make someone mad. People get mad because they internalize these arguments and resort to name calling. As soon as it gets personal and accusatory it's all downhill from there.

Honestly, the more dialogue the better, but it has to be civil if you want to get anywhere. If you think you might be getting sassed at or insulted, just give people the benefit of the doubt. This is the internet, where it's hard to read tone in the walls of text we spit back and forth at each other. And if someone is actually directly insulting you they're not worth having a conversation with.

[–]overthemountain 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

People get upset for the combination of content and context. They aren't upset about the content, they are upset about the content in the context of a place designed to talk about board games. To some degree it reminds me of a stranger walking up and telling me to smile. I hate that. I know they're trying to be nice, but it's really annoying.

I don't know how relevant the topic is to the board gaming community or to /r/boardgames in particular. I don't think the two are demographically identical, though. That also plays a part. I haven't noticed any rampant discrimination in the sub, so the admonishment feels a bit like preaching to the choir.

If this entire post has been an example, though, I would argue that the "be nice" crowd is the one with the biggest problem in regards to being civil. If you don't want to have these charged discussions in /r/boardgames you're labeled a troll or hateful. Do people want a discussion or a lecture, because you need more than one side for a discussion.

[–]Speedupslowdown 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think the post was necessarily meant to admonish people in the sub, but it is a place of visibility for boardgamers who might not have thought much about it, so I think it's helpful. Most discrimination on /r/boardgames I've seen gets downvoted to hell. I think the problem is that the post was being received by people as a judgment when it was really more of a timely public service announcement.

EDIT: I have to go to class, but thanks for the civil discussion.

[–]RoffeDH 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I get an eerie feeling of GamerGate 2.0 (or is it 0.5, board games being the older version of the two mediums).

It starts off like this, and soon you'll get blog posts, videos and the few media outlets that actually cater to board games saying "Gamers don't have to be your audience, gamers are dead".

In my gaming group we have a very diverse mix of people, we have the apoliticals (three or so of them as far as I can tell), the anarcho capitalist, the libertarian night watcher state, the left leaning liberal (hey, that's me) and the straight up commie.

The fact that one of these people might be bi/trans (suspicions from my part, nothing confirmed, nor do I care), one of us is Asian and has a disability has 0 to do with anything. Our age differences also span about 15 - 20 years. When have you EVER heard of such a diverse set of people ever coming together and enjoying each others company? Only gaming can do that.

And I bet the same is true in your gaming group.

[–]ReverseSolipsist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much.

Joss Whedon is already here, they're ready to go. I so do not want this to happen.

[–]NostalgiaZombie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have played games for 2 decades in a lot of different places, and you know who usually gets it the worst, the ugly people, the poor people, the people that are little to out there or low down even for the geeks.

The only proper advice is to treat everyone the same, don't harass them or patronize them. Don't mock them for not fitting in, but don't awkwardly over extend with free dice and gear. If you wouldn't do it to or for a person you aren't sexually oriented towards, don't do it to or for someone you are oriented towards.

Everything else is noise and unhealthy. Anecdotal, but I bet we can all atest we tend to have higher percentages of people that are used to being mistreated or carry low self esteem. It's great when they fit in, but people in that situation also develop unhealthy and manipulative coping mechanisms. They will cite grievances and emotionally manipulate to get the type of attention they feel they need.

Don't play into that. Nip it in the butt. It is unhealthy and wrong. Weak or bad off people aren't automatically right, they can be just as shitty as everyone else, only to add to it, they likely aren't well adjusted.