14
15

The Men Feminists Left Behind (nytimes.com)

wanderer512 が 投稿

全 84 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト (提案されたアイデア)
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]wanderer512[S] 18ポイント19ポイント  (60子コメント)

Over the past few months I've found the commentaries on the gender-politics and demographic aspects of the US election really fascinating. This opinion piece makes the by-now well-discussed argument that a lot of the resentment and anger from the Trump side is a sign of declining power of the traditional white-male position in society -- basically, zero-sum anti-feminist thinking fueled by economic problems.

It's encouraging to me that a number of people are now recognizing that there is a real problem for the men, from a feminist point of view -- that this isn't just patriarchy and misogyny oppressing women -- even as I found myself wishing the author wouldn't blame men too much, or solely, for these gender roles and constraints. She recognizes both the "old dinosaur" archetype, the man who sees more egalitarian society as a threat, but also the potential base of both men and women who would embrace more open male gender roles:

Every feminist I know will tell you that men bring much more to the table than physical strength or a paycheck, and that we would love a world in which men were free to be resilient and tender, ambitious and nurturing, expressive and emotional.

[...]

I suspect for a lot of men, a more equal America -- one with fewer cultural rules about how a man should be, and more avenues to identity and respect -- would be a pretty great America to live in.

And her call to action is that men would organize a parallel movement to feminism and work to embrace these new values.

My only quibbles are (i) I wish there were more discussion of the generational gap: how much are we just complaining about Boomer-generation men, and how much is already better among, say, millenials, vs. how much of this is universal; and (ii) I wish that there were some recognition, however small, that gender roles are often imposed on men by others (thus a simple admonishment that "men must change" is not as helpful as a call for everyone to embrace new roles, and in fact it can feel very victim-blamey to men who are already pushing the boundaries of old gender roles).

A lot of this is old-hat for /r/menslib, I think, but IMHO the context w.r.t. the election in particular makes this a relevant and worthy discussion...

[–]pm-me-weird-stuff 50ポイント51ポイント  (57子コメント)

I wish that there were some recognition, however small, that gender roles are often imposed on men by others

It's frustrating how difficult it is to get some feminists to accept that a great many women outside of college campuses and liberal enclaves like San Francisco have not gotten the memo regarding "we would love a world in which men were free to be resilient and tender, ambitious and nurturing, expressive and emotional".

There are still MANY places in America and the rest of the developed world where it would be romantic suicide for a young man to behave as if the women in his peer group agreed with that quote.

[–]Sithrak 19ポイント20ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yeah, the system has been upheld by both genders. But I doubt many feminists have no experience with anti-feminist/pro-patriarchal women. Hard to be that isolated, really.

For feminists, it must be even more infuriating, seeing how stubbornly those they want to liberate reject it.

[–]smallworries1 31ポイント32ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's really not anti-feminist women. The average woman. Check out fetlife or any kink network or subreddit, it's 90% female submissives. studies after studies prove that women prefer men who are dominant for casual relationships. If so, why would I, a regular dude, decide to stay single just so that I can further feminism when I can wear the masculine masc and have sex?

When the number tilts in favor of normal men, we'll be honest and tender. Today, nope.

It really is that simple.

[–]AloysiusC 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is really the problem. Asking men to be more passive is like asking race car drivers to slow down.

[–]thefoolsjourney 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

like asking race car drivers to slow down

If they can't do that, they're remarkably terrible drivers.

[–]AgentMullWork 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And slowing down would make them horrible racing drivers

[–]Sithrak 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

If so, why would I, a regular dude, decide to stay single just so that I can further feminism when I can wear the masculine masc and have sex?

When the number tilts in favor of normal men, we'll be honest and tender. Today, nope.

Ah, but it is not binary. Just like female feminists do not have to only ever wear asexual jumpsuits and can indulge in relatively harmless aspects of femininity, so can men find their balance. A male can project strength and assertiveness without being a disrespectful dick. A fine line, yeah, but that's exactly what men should have been debating for the last one hundred years of feminism instead of hoping it all just goes away.

[–]unclefisty 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The average woman. Check out fetlife or any kink network or subreddit, it's 90% female submissives.

You're assuming that large amounts of average women frequent these places and that there is no self selection bias happening.

[–]smallworries1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think you sort of missed rest of my comment. I can link to the studies.

But to your comment my question would be why are so few women dominant?

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]afternoonofthefaun 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Can confirm, it's frustrating as hell. I guess centuries of brain-washing have been effective.

    [–]RockyRaccoon5000 23ポイント24ポイント  (43子コメント)

    It seems like a big barrier for male acceptance of feminism. It feels like there's an assumption that women can't be sexist against men or that there isn't enough of it to justify paying any attention to it. It's frustrating.

    [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (41子コメント)

    I think the problem is that when educated people talk about sexism, they mean it in a sociological sense (i.e. prejudice + power), not pure prejudice. By that definition, women can't be sexist.

    Women can be prejudiced and enforce traditional gender roles, but I'm not so sure that they have the power in that relationship to make a difference. Men are still mostly mocked by their peers for being "sensitive", not by women.

    [–]LewsTherinTelamon_ 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I think the problem is that when educated people talk about sexism, they mean it in a sociological sense (i.e. prejudice + power), not pure prejudice. By that definition, women can't be sexist.

    Actually, they can be sexist by that definition. Women can have a lot of power too. I think even in generally patriarchal societies like Saudi Arabia there are women (in the royal family, for example) who have power over a lot of men.

    [–]wishthane -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Women who have a lot of power are not powerful because of sexism, but in spite of it. They might enforce sexism though, but even then I can pretty much guarantee you that they have less power than the men to do that.

    [–]Nostalgia_bang 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I disagree a woman's power in enforcing gender role lies within the perception that if the man weakens - he will lose status within his own family.

    And this is only in the families without a dominant matriarchal figure - in those families the/a women have/has total control of almost every aspect of life.

    [–]PinguCannotLose 12ポイント13ポイント  (12子コメント)

    How do you mean women do not have power right now in the U.S.? I have experienced many advantages and privileges from being a woman in our current society.

    [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Women have less power. That doesn't mean that women have no power at all or that some women (individually) don't have more power than some men.

    The advantages you have experienced are most likely a result of benevolent sexism - so although they might benefit you, they are probably the result of thinking that violates your agency. For example, women being given lighter sentences for horrible things is usually because we consider them incapable of doing horrible things (which is unjust for women!), and so when a woman does do something horrible it's usually met with some disbelief.

    [–]TheEhSteve 19ポイント20ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Can you please explain to me how you view the difference between benevolent sexism and privilege?

    Because it's really starting to grate on me when such clear cut cases of societal advantages like institutional and systemic bias in favor of women in the legal execution of the law of the land due to automatic and deep rooted favorable perceptions of character is somehow in any way a negative towards women.

    If we're playing the "But it comes with xyz baggage" game, you could call just about any advantage men get "benevolent sexism" as well, and both terms become indistinct from eachother and meaningless.

    [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

    This has been asked on AskFeminists before, so I'll refer you to this thread in addition to offering my own response.

    It's really about looking at the root systems and causes. It's a negative to women because it comes from sexism - the flip side is that because of that removal of agency, women are also not trusted with power and their decisions are not valued or respected as much. It's all part of the same thing.

    It's actually pretty hard to say the same thing about a lot of the advantages that men have, because they're really just things that everyone should have and they don't really have that flip side.

    [–]TheEhSteve 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

    It's actually pretty hard to say the same thing about a lot of the advantages that men have, because they're really just things that everyone should have and they don't really have that flip side.

    How can you say that in a conversation revolving around the downside of male hyperagency on a subreddit talking about the downsides of being a man?

    There's no downside? How about double standards in the face of equal protection? That sounds like a downside as serious as a heart attack to me. I'd trade pats on the back for being a successful dudebro for dodging jail time any day of the week.

    I can't invest the emotional energy and time to seriously argue this right now, but I strongly suggest you think hard about your reasoning to kneejerk minimize incredibly consequential and unfair legal double standards that horrify people when it happens along racial lines but apparently don't count when it victimizes men.

    It astounds me that people in this subreddit unironically wonder why feminism has a catastrophic credibility problem with marginalized men when these ridiculous hiccups occur on feminist subreddits dedicated to male issues when it comes to calling privilege privilege.

    [–]wishthane -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here. Yes, patriarchy is terribly harmful to men who don't conform to it, and men shouldn't conform to it. That's the whole point of this subreddit.

    That is not mutually exclusive with men overall being privileged vs women overall. And intersectionality is important as well.

    [–]RockyRaccoon5000 15ポイント16ポイント  (17子コメント)

    I don't want to get into the semantics of it but I think women do have the power to have a significant effect on male acceptance of traditional gender roles. I'm not saying it has as big an impact as what men often do to themselves but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.

    [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Yeah, you are correct, but the important part is that it's all part of patriarchy - which oppresses women and keeps men toxic. Both men and women can and do do things that support patriarchy, but patriarchy can not be destroyed without men.

    [–]TNBK 13ポイント14ポイント  (9子コメント)

    which oppresses women and keeps men toxic

    You notice how when women perptuate the patriarchy and create negative consequences for men, it's because they're oppressed, but when men do the same thing it's because they're toxic (or worse the oppressor?)

    Yeah, this is the root of a lot of anger at mainstream feminism.

    [–]wishthane 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Do you not agree that patriarchy is mostly the fault of men? Because I think that's what this really comes down to. Ending patriarchy requires changing the behavior of men - women alone changing their behavior does not end patriarchy unless men respond to that by doing so, but if men change their behavior then women will change also because of patriarchy.

    It's also important to consider the difference between individuals and "men" and "women" as groups, because we're talking about statistically significant trends in society here, and individual relationships are pretty much guaranteed to not perfectly line up with those trends - you would expect that if there is a normal distribution, most will represent those trends mostly, some will represent those trends somewhat, and a few will represent those trends barely at all.

    I understand that a lot of us are uncomfortable with the idea that we are complicit in something that we have more power to change, but that's just the way things are. We shouldn't feel bad about it, we should just try to change it.

    [–]TNBK 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Do you not agree that patriarchy is mostly the fault of men?

    No, I don't. Because that's hugely stupid for a number of reasons. It undermines the agency of women while giving hyperagency to men, again. It implies that there are some people who are guilty, and some people who are innocent just by the circumstances of their birth. Sexism is not a conspiracy that men are complicit in. And it isn't going to end when we find the original conspirators and hold them accountable.

    Sexism ends when the ideas that lead to it "men are a like this and women are like this" no longer find a home. And that home can just as easily be a man as it can be a woman, and the way they reflect those attitudes back into society is just as harmful if they're a woman as they are a man. Which is why acting like every woman comes out of the womb a natural ally and every man a relucatant ally at best is a dumb, dumb idea.

    [–]wishthane [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    It's not really about birth, though, it's about how we socialize people. There's nothing inherently bad about men or women, obviously, these things are purely problems with our own society, and it's easy to conceive of a society where these things are not a problem not through any particular effort, but because they just never turned out that way.

    Because of that, yeah, it's way easier for us as men to be complicit than it is for women. That has nothing to do with our inherent maleness or anything, but the way we've been brought up in society and the way other people treat us, and the differences between that and what women experience.

    [–]flimflam_machine 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

    The issue with the article is (as u/TNBK alludes to) that women have changed as the result of a gradual shift in societal attitudes, whereas men are just told "change!" The belief that every man (or even the average) man is somehow complicit in patriarchy gives rise to the belief that men somehow have the unique ability simply remould themselves into whatever pro-social form they (or others) desire.

    [–]wishthane -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Yes, I definitely agree with that sentiment, although the average man is complicit in patriarchy, but that doesn't mean it's easy for us to change it. But yes, I'll definitely agree that there are tons of articles out there that don't really do anything terribly constructive in that regard, but maybe that's not the point. There are also other articles out there that do offer pretty good advice to men about how they can help demolish the patriarchy. Hell, what we're doing right now in here is part of that. Just talking about it with other men is a big deal.

    [–]TacoCatReturns 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

    patriarchy can not be destroyed without men.

    How so? I would imagine it can only be destroyed without men.

    [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Do you mean if men literally stopped existing? I mean, I guess that might help, but even then it might not necessarily destroy patriarchy.

    Patriarchy is kind of a way of seeing the world that puts men (as a group) in power over women by considering them to be powerful / have more agency / be more correct etc. In a patriarchal society, it's mostly (or only) men who occupy positions of power, and so even if all women were to rebel against that idea, the burden is mostly on men to change it.

    If all men ceased to exist in a patriarchal society, it's entirely possible that the women would just decry the loss of leadership and continue to enforce patriarchy in the absence of men. It is also entirely possible that the women would be less likely to respect the authority of women in that society.

    But if men support destroying the patriarchy, then because of patriarchy, it is far more likely that destroying the patriarchy will become acceptable and therefore happen.

    [–]flimflam_machine 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    In a patriarchal society, it's mostly (or only) men who occupy positions of power, and so even if all women were to rebel against that idea, the burden is mostly on men to change it.

    Could you expand on this please. Why is it the burden of all men to change a system that puts only a tiny percentage of those men into power?

    [–]wishthane 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    We have more power as men than you might realize. Ten thousand men all working hard to convince other people is much more effective than a few policies that aren't well-supported. People care about what they see on TV but they care even more about the examples set by their friends. And people (both men and women) due to patriarchy also tend to give us credit that they wouldn't necessarily give women.

    "Positions of power" are a lot more broad than just politics. Many of us have influence over the way things work at our workplace, and many of us are husbands and boyfriends and because of patriarchy, that is also a position of power.

    [–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

      All I can say is keep looking around and you'll find the answer. Traditional masculinity includes toxic masculinity which is part of the reason men commit so much more crime. Men (as a whole) are raised to be violent in many different subtle ways. The other part is benevolent sexism - women are not considered capable of committing horrible crimes and that's bad for everyone, including women.

      Keep lurking. I'm sure you'll find the answers to your questions here.

      [–]AloysiusC 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Both men and women are innately averse to violence. Humans in general, even most if not all other species avoid violence. Just look at the inverse relationship between power/status and violence. Specifically men are less violent the more power they have. If they were innately violent, it would be the other way round.

      Violence is the language of the helpless.

      [–]Dewey_Darl 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Specifically men are less violent the more power they have.

      Is this documented? I'm honestly just wondering. It does make intuitive sens, and it's an interesting phenomenon if true.

      [–]AloysiusC 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well that poverty and crime come together is well documented. The correlation is also self-perpetuating.

      The reason it makes intuitive sense is because you've almost certainly seen the pattern: Walking through a poor area vs sitting around the table of a blue chip company conference table.

      When you have power, you have many ways to get what you need. Hell if you offer enough money, people would probably let you beat them up just for cash. If violence was some innate tendency, we'd see a big market for such services and even that wouldn't completely satisfy the condition since it avoids the risk involved.

      What really drives violence is helplessness, fear and desperation.

      [–]wishthane 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Specifically men are less violent the more power they have.

      Violence isn't just about murder although there are many powerful men who kill people, but also about rape, and verbal abuse, and emotional abuse. So that's not really true at all. I'd argue that powerful men who are violent are much better at covering up their violence (because of their power), but that just as many do violent things.

      [–]lurker093287h 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

      In response to this bit from the article

      Men haven’t gained nearly as much flexibility. The world has changed around them, but many have stayed stuck in the past. While women have steadily made their way into traditionally male domains, men have not crossed the other way. Men do more at home than they used to, but women still do much more — on an average day, 67 percent of men do some housework compared with 85 percent of women. Male identity remains tied up in dominance and earning potential, and when those things flag, it seems men either give up or get angry.

      I find this a super un empathetic version of this bit from a book I came across a while ago

      [Kathryn] "Edin's research in low-income communities shows, for instance, that most working women whose partner stayed home to watch the kids--while very happy with the quality of child care their children's father provided--were dissatisfied with the relationship overall. 'These relationships were often filled with conflict,' Edin told me. Even today, she says, men's identities are far more defined by their work than women's, and both men and women become extremely uncomfortable when men's work goes away (Peck, p.128, my emphasis).

      The op bit is phrased in an intelligent way so as to sort of blame men for not straying from traditional roles when I am not so sure that guys are driving this. There is another article I remember from a more middle class perspective, about rich women and their troubles with 'dating down' the income scale.

      The discomfort over who pays for what seems to be not really about money, plain and simple. Instead, it is suggestive of the complex psychology of what many of these women expect from their dates (for him to be a traditional breadwinner) and what they think they should expect (Oh, I just want him to be a nice guy)...a survey of college women to see if, upon graduation, they would prefer to settle down with a high school teacher who has short workdays, summers off and spare energy to help raise children, or with a surgeon who earns eight times as much but works brutal hours. Three-quarters of the women said they would choose the teacher...Talk about the subject with women a bit older — those who have been out of college long enough to be more hardened — and what you hear is ambivalence, if not downright hostility, about the income disparity.

      I think that one of the reasons that professional feminists haven't addressed this (apart from in a hand wavy way) is that maybe the interests of (various) women, and the need to have a sort of 'nationalist' collective identity and/or an enemy to unite often contradict the cause of gender equality.

      [–]ThatPersonGu 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'll disagree with you on the generational gap. The Y generation (and likely the Z gen to follow) is more liberal, but imo still express those same basic masculine pushes, just in different forms.

      Looking at Reddit for a second, we already see this. It's the archetype of the "lazy genius", who is naturally talented (showing worth) but lacks effort or determination (stoic and unfeeling). I'd argue that this archetype is in large part why boys struggle in school compared against girls.

      It's video game culture, the need for dominance, the need to shout higher. Reals > Feels culture, the need to be superior, "cuck", sex and porn, how 4chan self deprecation memes differ from Tumblr self deprecation memes, etc etc.

      These things do not change on their own.

      [–]Arimer 25ポイント26ポイント  (23子コメント)

      The point of the article is that men need to take their own actions and start their own movement to improve their lives. Yet anything said in the interest of men is instantly taken as hating feminism. And in some cases you have feminists actively working against men such as NOW and the family court system.

      It's easy to tell men to stand up for themselves when feminism has reached the point of being unquestionable.

      Beyond that i do agree that men could do a much better job of looking out for us. Unfortunately we're going to have to fight through the tainted identify we've been laid with in MRA's.

      [–]CurbstompAvocados 21ポイント22ポイント  (4子コメント)

      This is why most of the time that the phrase "Feminism helps men" is said is when feminist want to stop men from making their own movement.

      I have tried multiple times to talk to feminist IRL about mens issues, but they mostly get brushed aside or i get told that it seems like i'm "trying to derail the movement"

      [–]afternoonofthefaun 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

      This hasn't been my experience at all. In fact, I think I found this subreddit because it was recommended by some feminists.

      The intention isn't to stop men from making their own movement, the intention is to get more men to accept and not demonize feminism, as so many do. (men AND women!)

      So when we say that, what we're trying to say it "This isn't a female power movement. This is a gender equality movement that will benefit everyone". Although it is somewhat sad that to be taken seriously as a movement we have to say things like that. I guess any movement that doesn't directly benefit men is taken less seriously than one that does.

      But anyway, it's the truth. Feminism is working against gender roles that hurt both men and women.

      [–]wanderer512[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Likewise, my experience IRL with feminist-leaning people (women and men) is that everyone is very reasonable about these sorts of issues. Possibly this data has a "people who already know me" bias, i.e., they're assuming good faith, but nevertheless good experiences.

      In contrast, my experience watching debates unfold online has been that in any good-faith discussion of a men's issue, there is almost always someone who jumps in to say "but women have it worse". Even if, in the best case, it's just a trolling lunatic fringe of the movement, it does have a chilling effect on the discussion. It's an especially insidious virus because it plays on the male gender role of protector / stiff-upper-lip -- who are we to complain, and why aren't we worrying more about protecting women?

      And then I think when these men-should-shut-up-women-have-it-worse points come up, they set up a mental framing of men vs. women, and they're seen as lobbying for "team women", so they create the impression of a women's movement fighting against a men's movement, even if the real core and serious leaders of actual feminism don't frame it that way. So it's a perception/marketing issue.

      [–]pinglespingle 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Wow, imagine if you gave the people who call themselves MRAs that much slack?

      [–]wanderer512[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I mean, I try to cut slack to both sides. I think the average MRA is actually pretty reasonable insofar as he/she sticks to egalitarianism and avoids bitter ad-hominems. Even then I get angry when I think about injustices against men too and the dismissal in the cultural mainstream is doubly frustrating, so I do understand where the bitterness comes from. But I choose not to interpret the bitter fringe as the core message on either side... we don't get anywhere if we do that.

      [–]MiklaneTrane 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

      Yet anything said in the interest of men is instantly taken as hating feminism.

      I strongly disagree. For context, I'm in a very pro-feminist environment, being on a liberal New England college campus, and one particularly recognized for activism at that. I would say 70 to 90% of people on this campus identify as feminists. Yet I've never had problems or felt attacked when I discuss men's issues. It probably helps that I recognize that many of the problems men face are in fact a result of a patriarchal/misogynistic society, but regardless, the notion that feminists across the board brush off men's issues as 'hating feminism' is just false.

      [–]smallworries1 25ポイント26ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Usually in such discussions the problem men face are often blamed on men and the expectation is on men to initiate the change. However they call for social change when an issue affect women.

      [–]MiklaneTrane 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

      That's not my experience at all. Blame only ever falls on the overarching forces of society that none of us control but all of us contribute to. So many of the discussions I have end with some variation of "Well, this whole issue is FUBAR and there's no easy solution. The only thing we can do is try, individually, to be better people."

      [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

          [removed]

            [–]pinglespingle 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Sounds like table stakes are admitting you're part of the problem because of the way you were born. I wouldn't accept that, personally.

            [–]MiklaneTrane 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Where are you getting that? Societal rules and norms are constructions, they've got nothing to do with the way I was born.

            [–]swaggeroon 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I'm not the person you're replying to, but I think I understand what they're saying.

            I understand it's not what's meant when these terms are used (at least academically), but, when someone says feminism is good and patriarchy is bad, I hear women and good and men are bad.

            It's not true, and it's usually not what the speaker means, but it's what I hear and what drives my emotional response. I always need to calm down before adding to the discussion, and even then I feel very much on edge.

            So, what I'm saying is that the inherently gendered language of feminism, which often associates negativity with maleness, makes feminist discourse uncomfortable and sometimes downright triggering for a lot of men. It is simply not a safe space for me.

            That said, I want to emphasize that I agree with a lot of feminist principles. It's just that a lot of feminist rhetoric makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable in my own skin.

            [–]locslovinglady 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            That's very interesting! I couldn't have imagined how that would make men uncomfortable in their own skin, although I should have known since, no matter what anyone says to differ, the words we use have an impact. Could you, even if in a personal message to not derail this thread, tell me more about the language that sets you off? I would very much like to know how to sound different when addressing men I care about when it comes to these issues. I feel a strong connection when the language around it, so I may not eliminate it entirely, but it is important to be able to make who I am talking to more comfortable with these emotionally charged issues.

            [–]flimflam_machine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            My two penn'orth on this: I find that thinking and talking about double standards is useful because (to me) it conveys less of a requirement of there being an oppressor and more of the possibility of there being a widespread asymmetry in how the most people deal with men and women.

            Ozy's law ("It is impossible to form a stereotype about either of the two primary genders without simultaneously forming a concurrent and complementary stereotype about the other.") is an interesting take on this.

            I've also found the "mission statement" of Holistic Feminism to be quite inspirational in this regard because it acknowledges the need to address a problem from multiple viewpoints.

            [–]Sithrak 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Yet anything said in the interest of men is instantly taken as hating feminism.

            That's because there is plenty of rabid male anti-feminism out there. So far there just haven't been that much reasonable men-oriented thinking and what there is tends to drown in the sea of hate.

            [–]BBOY6814 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

            it's understandable, but still not ok

            [–]Sithrak 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Yeah, it's all fucked up and pretty horrible. But I don't think blaming any "side" makes any sense. It is all a bunch of extremists of all colorations going at each others' throats.

            Sadly, it is not equivalent - somewhere behind the phalanx of misguided extremists, there are actual feminist intellectuals who look at gender in a complex manner. On our "side", there is still mostly the horde.

            [–]newbreed2016 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Sadly, it is not equivalent - somewhere behind the phalanx of misguided extremists, there are actual feminist intellectuals who look at gender in a complex manner. On our "side", there is still mostly the horde.

            I would love to see any feminist thinker who discusses what part women take in gendered expectations on men in particular a discussion that goes beyond a one-sentence acknowledgement that patriarchy forces women to behave the way they do.

            [–]ridemooses 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I've always understood feminism to stand for a larger movement for equality for all people. I don't know exactly where feminism is today but I hope it can move in a direction where we help all groups achieve equality and a mutual understanding of our similarities and differences. We all share this world why not help others make their lives better in turn more than likely making our own lives better?