Ask Dr. NerdLove: Is It The Red Pill or Nothing?

November 4, 2016 by Dr. NerdLove 132 Comments

Hi there Doc! I’ve been reading your blog for some time but really could use some personal advice.

So, I’m 22 years old and horrible with women. A couple of years ago I stumbled upon the PUA/Redpill/Seduction community and it has caused me to become horribly depressed. What I read on the Internet tells me, that the kind of relationship I would like to have does not exist.

I want a girlfriend/wife, who wants me because of who I am and not because of the person I “act to be”. I’m not an alpha. I respect women and want a girlfriend who respect me as well. The internet tells me all these things. I shouldn’t make her my priority, I shouldn’t give her too much attention, I shouldn’t make her “feel secure” and “be ready to walk out at any minute”. I don’t want that. I want a girlfriend who is also my best friend. If she is wearing a gorgeous dress, I want to tell her how beautiful she looks in it. I want to tell her I love her. I want to tell her how much she means to me.

According to the internet, thats “so beta”. After reading PUA/Dating advice blogs, I’m horribly depressed about the “fact” that I will never have the kind of relationship I want. I want a stable, long lasting relationship but that seems almost impossible to have nowadays. At some point I want to be able to say: “This is it. This is a woman I can imagine spending my life with. I’m done dating.”. Now, I don’t believe that there is THE ONE I need to find. I’m sure there are millions of possible partners that I could be happy with. But I want only one of them and be happy for a long time. I don’t care about sex all that much and spending time together talking, cuddling, doing stuff together is way more important to me.

If you’ve got some advice for me, please help me! I beg you to help me. My counselor doesn’t really seem to understand where I’m coming from, but maybe you do.

Beta Testing

Beta, dude. It’s ok. You’re dealing with what’s known as a false dichotomy – the idea that you have only two options. In this case, you’re being told that you can take the Red Pill or… you can die alone and unloved. I’m here to tell you: that’s bullshit. That’s seven different kinds of bullshit from cholera-infected bulls.

We’ll leave aside things like my site and just stick to some basic stuff here: people’ve been loving, dating and mating for the length of human history; long before Ross Jeffries started his Speed Seduction website, before Mystery put on his hat and long before folks like Heartist and RooshV went around telling people that the best way to get laid is through emotional abuse and date rape. You can toss a rock at random and hit five couples who are loving and affectionate, who cuddle and talk and are generally disgustingly sweet to one another. And then you’ll have to apologize for hitting them with a rock, but hey, one thing at a time.

The issue you’re having is that you’re reading a lot of crap. You’ve got folks selling you shit and telling you it’s ice cream over and over again, whether it’s subreddits or PUA blogs or whatever and seeing the same things over and over again. A lot of it sounds similar to many of the messages that guys’ve been drowning in for decades. And to be fair: much of it is written in a compelling fashion; pretty much everybody out there’s using a lot of the same sales techniques to get you to feel like they are the Way and The Light.¹ It’s not really surprising that it’s leading you to feel like this is the only way, especially if you keep seeing the same bullshit repeated from several different sources. Repeat something often enough and it starts to sink in.

The thing is: the fact that lots of people are saying something doesn’t necessarily make it true. You can fall down enough rabbit holes that’ll be happy to tell you that the Earth is flat, that trees don’t actually exist, that chemtrails alter our minds and that the Illuminati is behind Beyonce. Read enough of them for long enough and you’re likely to think that they may have a point too. But if you step away for, oh, five minutes, long enough to get a beer from the fridge, you’ll realize how pants-on-head-insane it all is.

The best thing you can do right now? Quit reading those sites and blogs. Take a long, brain-clearing vacation from dating advice sites – mine too, if you really feel the need. Go out, hang out with your friends, catch a matinee of Doctor Strange (seriously, it’s pretty good), enjoy some fresh air and just exist for a bit. Don’t think about dating or debunked pseudoscientific ideas about alpha/beta behavior for… a weekend at least. Maybe a long weekend. Watch how much your mood changes when you’re not constantly submerging yourself in this.

Afterwards? Well, I hope you come back here at least, because I like to think my dating philosophy lines up more with yours. Check out my books; I worked pretty hard to make them a more positive read for folks instead of telling them that the key to getting laid is manipulation. Maybe check out the NerdLounge; there’s a pretty cool and positive community there too. Maybe check back in here so we know how you’re doing.

And quit reading PUA and RedPill blogs. They’re just not healthy for you.

Good luck.

Hi Doc,

I recently moved to a new city in a new country, where I don’t have a great command of the language. I’ve taken some language classes to help me get by as well as meet some people. They have been a success on both fronts. I also met a girl. We hung out a couple of times, both in a group and one on one. We get along well, have similar interests and I was infatuated, so I figured I needed to ask her out. It was honestly a big step, as I’m generally the type of person who prefers to silently pine for someone. However, putting aside my fears of awkwardness (my mantra was “if you don’t treat it like a big deal, then they won’t treat it like a big deal.”, thanks by the way), I asked her out. She said no. I didn’t treat it like a big deal. She didn’t treat it like a big deal. She said, “I’m not ready for a relationship right now, however, would you like to get that drink as friends”. I said “Sure, why don’t we invite some of our mutual friends”. It was a surprisingly good (and not awkward) night, we all went out, had a few drinks as if nothing happened.

Fast forward a month or so, and it’s as if nothing happened. We’re still hanging out, sometimes one on one, and I’m back to silently pining. I can’t move on. I know I can’t ask her again, I’m not about to be the guy who pesters someone to date them. I also don’t want to be hanging around in the hope she changes her mind, as tempting as that seems right now. Back home I think I know what I would do, I’d cut back. I’d stop seeing them as much until I’d found someone else to pine for. The only issue here, in this new country, I’m fairly friend-poor at the moment. It would mean reducing my group of friends by about a 1/5th. Not to mention the person with whom I get on best in this whole goddammed city.

So what am I to do? Doctor, I think I might be coming down with oneitis, do I remove the source of infection or let it simmer knowing it will pass?

Thanks,

Lost in Translation

The best way to avoid getting Oneitis is to start seeing more people. If you’re spending all your time around your crush – even as you insist you’re cool with being friends – then you’re not really giving yourself a chance to get over her and realize that there’re other folks out there. The more options you present yourself with, the easier it is to realize that while this one person is very nice, there’re plenty of other people out there who’re just as nice… or possibly even more so.

Now, in your case, you’re dealing with an artificially limited population. Since you don’t speak the language well yet, you’ve been sticking mostly to the folks in the same boat as you – expats, workers from the home country, etc. While that’s totally understandable – it’s remarkable how much even just a familiar accent can be a relief when you’re dealing with culture shock – it means that you’re seeing the same folks over and over again.

So what do you do?

Branch out a little. I can almost guarantee you that if you start poking around online, you’ll find meet-ups and webforums for other fellow travelers; get to know them. You might also want to hop on Tinder or Bumble or other location-based dating apps and send up a flare for folks – locals and otherwise – who might be interested in dating a visitor to their fair country. Not only will this give you an excuse to practice your language skills, but it’ll remind you of just how many awesome women are out there who are looking for relationships and also dig what you have to offer.

Good luck.

Hey Doc,

I have been following your website for years and it helped me a lot. I’m not writing about relationship but about self motivation. I am currently attending one of the best art school in the country under some of the best teachers. Recently I have been unhappy with my work and felt even worse after a brutalizing class critic. The next day the same teacher, who is a renowned artist and often helps kick start her students career, posted on her facebook and instagram how amazing her other students are. This was seen by hundred of people. I love what I’m doing and don’t ever want to give up on my art career but I’m stuck in a “you’re useless and you’ll never make it” loop which is effecting my work quality. Please help me, what can I do to believe in myself and get out of my own head.

Wrapped in a Burrito of Self Loathing

Hoo boy, I’ve been there, WBSL.

Back when I was trying to be a comic artist, I didn’t do so well with some (many) of my professors in the art department. I was an illustrator surrounded by fine artists; worse, I was a comic artist. And this was in the 90s, before comics caught on with the mainstream. One teacher told me that she would rather see me cut my fingers off with tin-snips than call myself an artist.

(I told her she wouldn’t know good art if it bit her on the ass and sang ten rounds of “‘enry the ‘eighth” to the tune of “I’m good art”. The look on her face made the practice worth it. Not coincidentally, I became an english major the next day.)

You are going to have to deal with a lot of discouragement as an artist. Much of it will be self-inflicted; you’re going to look at other people and think “holy shit, I’m never going to be as good as them.” Other times, you’re going to look at your own art and think “what the fuck was I thinking? How could I ever have believed this was worth bringing to light at all?”

After I graduated from college and got settled into my groove, I started hanging around with the local artist community and holy hopping sheep shit, almost everyone was way better than me. And when I started working on A Scanner Darkly… well fuck me sideways but I was surrounded by people who kicked my artistic ass up one side and down the other. And let me tell you: this group included folks who’ve gone on to be rockstar artists at Marvel, DC, Bioware and a host of other success stories. Believe me: you would recognize some of the names. As hard as it was to look at their art and not feel like I was the world’s biggest fraud, I learned to let them inspire me. There was nothing quite like looking at some of my friends work and thinking “well shit, I need to kick my stuff up a notch” and trying to learn everything I could from their examples.

And then there’s the criticism. If you’re going to be a creative of any type and put your work in front of others, you have to be ready for criticism. No matter how good you are or aren’t, folks are going to have opinions. And sometimes hearing those opinions can be brutal. Sometimes it will make you want to dig yourself a nice deep hole, jump in and pull the hole in after you.

But you can survive that criticism. Start by asking yourself: how much of it is valid? Are they talking shit because they think ragging on someone’s work is a way of showing how cool you are? Or do they have some legitimate advice, however inartfully given? I remember doing a portfolio critique with Jim Valentino of Image Comics that left me feeling lower than a snake’s ass in a drainage ditch; he ripped my art a series of new assholes, one after the other. But as much as it stung to hear… dude was right. I had a lot of growing to do as an artist, and I was nowhere near ready. Once I could take my ego out of it and my reflexive “fuck you, you don’t know what you’re talking about”, I could see what he was saying. And as much as it sucked… I needed to take his advice, dig in and work my cute little ass off.

So now that you’ve had some distance from that brutal critique, take some time. Assess it. See how much is useful. Take some of it to heart and experiment. Go back and rework some of the fundamentals.

Meanwhile, talk to your teacher. There’s nothing wrong with asking for a little assistance; it’s a hell of a lot more productive than hoping that they’ll take notice of you and give you a boost. Tell them that you’re having a hard time with some of your work, that you really admire their work² and could use some direction or advice. Even if it’s just some exercises you should try to stretch your creative muscles, any assistance they could give you would be greatly appreciated.

But in general, the biggest key to any artistic endeavour is persistence. Art is about practice and growth and time. Push yourself. Test your limits. Do things you’re scared of. Watch how it changes your art and forces you to grow as a creator. You may not make a living as an artist – most artists don’t, especially in this day and age. Hell, some of the greatest artists in history – Van Gough, most notably – were failures in their time. But if you love art? Let that love move you and inspire you and push you through these shitty moments. Even if you’re just creating for yourself, let that love flow through you and it’ll bring you through some of the hardest times.

Good luck.

We’ll pause to acknowledge the irony here. [↩]
A little ass kissing never hurt. Just a little. [↩]

Marie

The issue you’re having is that you’re reading a lot of crap.

^ Yes, this. All that redpill/alpha/whatever bullshit is not how people should act.

Hiddenturtle

LW 1 – there are absolutely other ways to have relationships/date. In fact, most people don’t do dating the Red Pill way, because it’s demeaning and eventually unsatisfying. And all that snuggling, being best friends, talking stuff – that’s what makes up a lot of relationships (and, well, all of mine). That’s pretty much my current relationship to a T. It’s not antagonistic. And he certainly isn’t an “alpha” (because that is bs) or any kind of ladies man.
- H. Savinien
  
  Oh geez yes. Step one: treat other human beings kindly and with humor appropriate to their personality. Step two: remember that women are also human beings and apply step one.
- Wraith
  
  There’s Red Pill for Relationships, where you can snuggle and the rest. But at the same time if you’re the man you have to be dominant *all the time* (by “holding frame”, passing her “shit tests”, etc), never display any weakness, and yet do it so subtly she’s scarcely aware of it. Even if this were valid, it sounds pretty hard and a lot of work to be honest.
  - Imogen
    
    Seriously. I wish more of these people would ask themselves whether they actually want to live like that, even if it gets them what they think they want.
    - Mike
      
      I second that. It’s as though these fellows are living in an alternative reality. They fail to see that they are creating a fake, idealized version of themselves and are trying to live as that ”person” instead of as themselves. It would require a LOT of acting and lies and pretenses to keep all that up for any length of time. Sure, guys who do this MIGHT get laid more than they were (for a while, anyway) but what happens when one night stands and quick flings aren’t enough anymore? By this time the guy probably has not a friggin’ clue who he is anymore! And what woman in her right mind would want a guy who does not know who he is?
      That’s the real joke of the whole red pill/PUA thing, to me, anyway.
  - H. Savinien
    
    And these dudes say women play mind games? No. That sounds boring and exhausting.
    - Hiddenturtle
      
      Right? Like this is pretty extreme game playing. And not the fun kind of games.
    - BJWise
      
      Not to defend or excuse them, but that’s kind of their point. They think women play mind games, so they’re going to play mind games right back, never realizing they’re the ones firing the first shot.
      - “M”
        
        “Not to defend or excuse them, but …”
        
        Yeah, that’s … kind of what you’re doing.
        
        You don’t have to mansplain their tactics; there isn’t a reader here who doesn’t know how they “work” (and I put that manipulative slimeballing they do in quotes deliberately).
        
        :-/
      - BJWise
        
        Uh, no, it’s not. Nothing I said defended or excused them. And nothing I said was mansplaining. Take some reading comprehension classes.
      - “M”
        
        LOL.
        
        You’re … not terribly familiar with that thing called “irony”, are you?
        
        You might want to invest in a couple of reading comp classes yourself there, doood.
        
        (And get a dictionary. :-))
      - Reboot
        
        I dunno. Your last sentence was pretty mansplainy. After all, do you really think H. Savinien or any of the other women do not know why the PUA crowd does what it does? Especially since women are more likely to experience these men’s mind games first hand?
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        “Take some reading comprehension classes.”
        
        Yeah, I went back and read posts in order (yippie, mod page!) and you kicked off the nasty comments with this line.
        
        You don’t get to be surprised when people don’t react well to this sort of comment.
        
        And there’s no one that reacts well to “Not to defend them, but…”, because it’s right up there with “I’m not a racist, but…” in terms of phrases that aren’t going to go over well, and it does sound kind of mansplainy when you reply to a woman’s comment about Red Pill beliefs with “They do it because they think it works”.
        
        I mean…of course they think it works, I don’t think anyone would disagree.
        
        I don’t want to see this escalate, so just take a deep breath and realize that sometimes certain phrases don’t go over well, especially in emotionally charged discussions, and don’t start fights with stuff like the “reading comprehension class” remark.
      - Hiddenturtle
        
        Here’s the thing, though. These same guys are the ones who moan and groan about women playing mind games and how awful they are for it. So, women are awful for supposedly doing X, and their response is then to do X first, but when they do it, it’s somehow not awful. This is super logicky.
    - Mike
      
      While I don’t disagree that certain women play mind games, I seriously question the common sense of a man that is aware that this is happening, continues to engage that particular woman, ends up getting manipulated or used in one way or another, and then lashes out at women in general for a situation that he participated willingly in creating.
      It’s one thing when someone takes advantage of someone who is vulnerable in some way, but it is quite another when someone is perfectly aware that they are being ”messed with” pretty much from the beginning, yet they continue to engage that person anyway.
      It’s almost as though these men really just want to ”get even” with women for every perceived slight they have ever experienced.
      * I also think women playing mind games like these sorry saps describe is quite uncommon in most instances. Far more often, I believe personally that the so-called mind game consists of a guy pursuing a women who does not want to be intimate with him, consistently failing to read the situation, continuing to pursue her, ultimately failing miserably, and then being angry and bitter toward that woman and every other woman on the planet.
  - Hiddenturtle
    
    That…sounds both exhausting and horribly manipulative.
    - Wraith
      
      According to practitioners it gets easier the more you do it, until you are doing it reflexively.
      
      But according to RP theory this isn’t really manipulative, its necessary to avoid your relationship imploding. Women are driven to constantly test for signs of weakness and vulnerability in their men, and constantly driven to “shit test” him to try and provoke signs of weakness.
      
      If they detect too much weakness, they will grow disgusted with their male partner and terminate the relationship. The woman isn’t even aware she’s doing this – its all subconscious. But even if she were aware, she couldn’t resist doing it. Its some kind of bio-evolutionary genetic programming, or something.
      
      I’m not saying this is true, or I believe it, but this is what many Redpill practitioners do believe.
      - Reboot
        
        I have a feeling that their definition of “shit test” is a woman wanting to do something the MRA/Redpill type does not want to do or does not want her to do. Things like asking them to clean up after themselves or picking up something from the store or going to a movie she wants to see or her hanging out alone with her friends….you know, normal human behavior
      - Marty Farley
        
        But I thought women were desperate to “lock it down” and trap men into relationships through rings and babies? Aren’t women supposed to be the ones who are somehow programmed to need others for support and protection? *Won’t someone tell me how I’m supposed to act, all these contradictions are confusing my lady-brain?!*
  - Mike
    
    That means it’s all just an act, it’s fake, and if someone does it for long enough, they may not even know who they really are anymore.
    I feel the same way about people who think of themselves as ”badasses.” it’s a ridiculous sham that will inevitably come to a crash-stop when someone comes along that (general you) can’t dominate or intimidate. What then?
Static Variable

I like reading your site, but I also like reading redpill/pua just for comparison. I find that between opposites, I can usually find a middle ground that is a good fit for me, and in the end isn’t that what really matters? Finding what works for you?
- Antigone10
  
  Well, there’s also being ethical. From what I can tell, redpill is a lot of skeezy, emotionally manipulative if not down right abusive behavior.
  - Static Variable
    
    It is good to know about it, in order to recognize it and prevent it from happening. I had no idea what negging is, and at least now I can recognize if someone does it and take appropriate response.
    - PintsizeBro
      
      “Negging” is what a person who doesn’t know how to have a normal conversation sees when what’s actually happening is a bit of playful teasing.
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        Eh…except the Red Pill takes the concept of playful teasing and wraps it in a lot of misogyny and toxic theories about women to make it “negging”.
        
        “Negging” is no longer playful teasing but directed attacks on a person’s emotional well being designed to provoke a response from them and get them talking to you as well as damaging their self-esteem so the PUA can get further in their defenses.
        
        Which…again, it the problem with Red Pill stuff, even the rather benign stuff is wrapped up in toxic thought and directed towards the goal of breaking down another person’s emotional defenses.
      - PintsizeBro
        
        Well, my core point wasn’t “Red pill has good things to offer” so much as “Anything good that comes from red pill can be found elsewhere sans toxic crap.” =P
        
        I think the initial motivation comes from a fundamental misunderstanding (often willful) of how people interact. They see teasing and decide that means that emotional manipulation of someone vulnerable is a good idea.
        
        And emotionally healthy woman might not respond like the great xkcd comic on the topic (https://xkcd.com/1027/ for anyone who hasn’t seen it), but she’s likely to be put off rather than pulled in.
      - Marty Farley
        
        I *think* I’ve gotten negged once or twice, but frankly, it’s so hard to distinguish negging from just run-of-the-mills jerks I run into sometimes (mooing at me in a bar; negging or jerk? Who knows?)
        
        Even if my feelings aren’t particularly hurt by a comment, initial comments spread with negativity just make me assume the guy doesn’t like me, and I try to get away from him as quickly as possible. Maybe I’m a weird case, since negging is supposed to be used on extremely beautiful women to “take them down a peg” and “make them earn your approval,” but I have to think even attractive women will assume a negative comments about their looks means *the guy doesn’t like their looks*, and thus to not waste his time trying to convince him.
        
        I mean, I’ve been called ugly a LOT, and my response has NEVER been “Oh yeah, well, let me show you how you’re wrong and I’m actually really hot!” Why would a beautiful woman respond that way??
      - PintsizeBro
        
        My operating rule for all socializing remains “people who like you will act like they like you” and it’s never steered me wrong.
      - Mike
        
        Damned right.
      - Reboot
        
        I am pretty sure a man tried to neg a friend of mine a few weeks ago when we were out for post work drinks. He said, “I bet you are too stuck up to talk to the average guy in a bar”. She said, “You’d win that bet” and turned back to her conversation. Either a neg or a really stupid way to start a conversation. I am still not sure
      - Maril
        
        I think someone tried negging me once but I just kinda gave him an annoyed ‘wtf?’ look and walked away. I can’t imagine who that might actually work on 0-o I can have fun teasing people, but that’s people I already know so we both know it’s just in jest and they can (and do) do it right back to me. If a stranger came up to me and said something like ‘you’re pretty attractive despite your *insert trait I’m slightly self conscious about here* I’d just be insulted and leave. Why would I ever do anything else? Why would ANYONE ever do anything else (save something like slapping him or throwing a drink in his face)?
      - Wraith
        
        I think early PUAs watched some couple engaging in playful flirting and they made a list of all the elements of the exchange. Or perhaps they just watched a lot of romantic comedies…
        
        Anyhow so they noticed that sometimes the man will very mildly and playfully put the woman down. They took this out of context and worked out some nonsense reason for it. In truth it’s just a very minor, optional element of successful flirting which is just there to break up the flow of the banter. Both the man and woman know its not serious – its supposed to be lighthearted and playful. Of course PUAs just don’t get this.
    - Hiddenturtle
      
      Oh, it’s definitely good to know about that kind of stuff. I read WeHuntedtheMammoth precisely because I want to know what kind of awful stuff is out there. I read what your OP as you reading both this site and the redpill/pua and taking them equally seriously.
- ThatHat
  
  I dunno, that feels a bit like the rhetorical fallacy of assuming that the best point between any two sides is the middle ground, which is certainly not always the case.
  
  I mean, finding what works for you is good, so if it works, that’s good I guess. But I struggle to think of anything redpill related that’s not inherently foul.
  - PintsizeBro
    
    It’s not that Redpill is completely devoid of good advice. It’s just that, like you saw in my post below, any good advice that comes out of Redpill is not unique to Redpill.
    - Jimmy Two-Hammers
      
      Did you head about the massive lump of butter they found in an Irish bog recently? Perfectly preserved. Scientists said that, you know, except for the fact it was covered in bog gunk you could probably eat it and not get sick.
      
      And that’s the problem with Red Pill. The good advice is essentially bog butter. You have to wade into a bog and get dirty in order to find it, and then you have to scrape off all the bog that’s been stuck to it, and then maybe under that you’ll find some decent butter.
      
      The other problem is that it’s great…if you want butter. If you wanted a different kind of dairy product you’re SoL.
      
      Which is to say that Red Pill really only deals with one sort of sexuality and one sort of masculinity, and it’s going to be hard to get the bog stench off.
      - PintsizeBro
        
        I did read about that butter! Fascinating stuff.
        
        Redpill operates kind of like a cult. Cults are great at offering generic advice wrapped in a packaging specific to their message to lure in people who might be susceptible. By the time the really sick shit comes out, you’re already invested.
        
        Now in my case, I observe from a distance because I think it’s important to know your enemy. Since I’m not invested, it’s easier for me to see what’s going on.
        
        The funniest thing of all was when I decided to go and lurk on a “Red pill women” community. I couldn’t get over it – the things the women in the community with the same name say they want are totally different from the things that the red pill guys think women want.
      - Enail
        
        Wow, really? That’s interesting! Do you have a sense overall what were the big differences?
      - PintsizeBro
        
        Well, both communities are based on the premise, “Women want men who act like men.” The guys took that to mean, “Women want men who act like sexist stereotypes,” while the women’s community tended to skew more towards “Women want men who act like adults.”
        
        Now, some of the women did express a desire for “alpha” personality types. But it seemed to me as a reader as similar to the appeal of 50 Shades of Grey, etc. All of the women who identified their ages were in their early 20’s, so some of that may just be an issue of inexperience and not really knowing where fantasy ends and reality begins.
      - Imogen
        
        I can see how a person who was attracted to a particular high masculine aesthetic would come to that. I’m a card-carrying member of the Have Dated Guys I Probably Wouldn’t Be Friends With Club. If it seems like the only way to tap into things one does find attractive, I can imagine (and remember) justifying things that one finds unpleasant, but hasn’t realized are actually harmful.
      - Enail
        
        Is it weird that this kind of made Red Pill sound more appealing, not less? <_< Bog butter is fucking cool!
  - Static Variable
    
    How would you know something is foul unless you examined it for yourself though, which kind of requires you to read and evaluate it for yourself?
    - Jimmy Two-Hammers
      
      Having examined it for myself…Red Pill is pretty toxic, and only really deals with one sort of masculinity, and one set of femininity as seen through the eyes of men.
      
      PintSized makes the point that negging is just flirting…but it’s not, the philosophy around negging is really hard to separate from the fact that RP’ers believe it works because of very negative views on the intelligence and emotional fragility of women and the entire point isn’t playful banter or flirting but manipulation.
      
      The entire philosophy is wrapped in and shot through with highly toxic and misgynistic attitudes towards women and misandry towards other men, especially men who don’t conform to impossibly standards as put forward by the philosophy.
    - ThatHat
      
      I mean, I don’t really have to go read the KKK manifesto for myself to know that they’re foul, y’know?
      - Caliseivy
        
        Kinda feel like enough redpill-ers come through here on the regular to explain their beliefs that we all pretty much know it.
      - Marty Farley
        
        It IS kinda fun, though, to quote back Red Pill philosophy at the RP guys who attempt to argue in feminist spaces about it… Like the idea that a woman has actually read up on this stuff is mind-blowing to them, as if their corner of the Internet is unavailable to anyone without a penis.
    - BasFishing
      
      It beats more generic dating advice only in the department that it has life overhaul aspects in the categories of diet/exercise/life planning/mood management tacked onto it (half of which is fad shite and pop psychology, but oh well), but you can got those elsewhere and without the sort of durrr Mannerbünd philosophy that pervades every piece.
    - Mike
      
      Do you seriously need to read ”Mein Kampf” to know that Adolph Hitler’s entire philosophy and world view were murderous and vile?
PintsizeBro

LW1: You’re gonna get a lot of responses here in the comments, because your question is a common one that’s been answered before, but as you can see those answers haven’t permeated the greater internet.

Take a look at all these Red Pill guys you admire. Are any of them in the happy relationship that you want? No, they’re not. They’re angry and lonely and circle jerking on the internet about how women only like alphas so they’re going to learn to be alpha. Even the self-appointed gurus who claim they can teach guys like you to be alpha aren’t in relationships. They might claim that they don’t want to be in relationships because they’re too busy banging lots of chicks, but if they were happy, why would they be so angry all the time?

If you see what happens when guys who are already in relationships discover Red Pill, most of the time those relationships implode. The guys throw everything that made them a good boyfriend or husband out the window.

The reason Red Pill seems to work to a guy like you is simple: the first bits of advice they give you do work. But that’s because the first bits of advice they give are so generic that you could get them anywhere (including here!). Those are things like work out and eat better, learn how to dress yourself, act confident even if you’re not, and the big one, actually ask women out.

Red Pill appeals not because it offers anything special or unique but because the packaging validates guys who feel angry and resentful that they’re single and want someone to blame, so they blame women.
- Johnny Silverhand
  
  I’ll take that a step farther, are any of the “alphas” writing these articles really high status or dominant or whatever on any scale that matters? They’ve substituted “getting laid” for any other measure of success in life. As business owners, they’re the low end of successful. RooshV lives in his grandma’s basement or something. As citizens or members of the community, they contribute nothing. In terms of having the power to shape the world in the direction that they want it to go, they’d probably be more successful not saying anything. Guys like Trump and Breitbart love them because they’ve created a ready made audience for hateful bullshit that people with real influence can hijack. Their ‘alpha’-ness extends exactly as far as their mailing list. You can do better and be better than that.
  - PintsizeBro
    
    Yeah, even if “alpha” were a real thing, the guys claiming to be alpha just… aren’t. They’re angry assholes living with relatives and circle jerking on the internet about how much they hate women.
    - Johnny Silverhand
      
      Yeah, I’m doing them the favor of using their own definitions for the comparison here.
      - PintsizeBro
        
        I can’t think of much that’s more damning than pointing out that even by their own skewed, narrow definition of success… they’re still failures.
      - myrandomnickname
        
        I was just thinking that I class reading redpill/PUA material in the same category as reading stuff written by ardent Trump supporters – it can be useful to figure out how they think to avoid them, but more than about 30 seconds of material and I’m ready to rage punch something or someone.
      - Mike
        
        Material like that is for people who don’t like to think about what they are saying/doing. Apparently they associate that kind of analysis with being ”intellectual” or ”faggy” or some other pejorative.
        The whole ”alpha” concept is piss-poor science when it comes to the animal kingdom (wolves and primates and other stuff apparently do not exist in simple binary states either) and it is even more piss-poor yet when it is applied to human social dynamics.
        There are some very confident people walking around out there. People who carry themselves with assurance, who speak calmly and clearly, who can slow down and think when under stress, who inspire others, etc. None of this denotes ”alpha” status of any kind. Even the most confident person can find himself/herself in an embarrassing/awkward/uncomfortable/frightening situation and have a very hard time adjusting to it. That’s how life works and people like James Bond, who can remain cool as icewater and make quips while explosions and gunfire are going off all around him, do not exist in the real world.
        I have never met an ”alpha” male or female. Sure, I’ve met some pretty darned confident people who don’t tend to back down from responsibility, who carry themselves well, and who tend to respond productively to stressful situations, in fact, I tend to be one of these people (most of the time, anyway).
        But I am no ”alpha” and nor is any real person I know.
  - Jimmy Two-Hammers
    
    Most of them aren’t even getting laid.
    
    Even the successful ones tend to eventually burn out and have breakdowns or dip further into the crazy well. Plus a lot of them tend to stop listening to any outside views and start exclusively getting their information from Red Pill sources, which are already connected to the alt-right, or they start picking fights with the Blue Pill community (which…honestly, they seem just as dumb) and start slap-fighting in the Purple Pill Reddit.
    - Enail
      
      Wait, there’s a Blue Pill and Purple Pill??? I’d have thought Blue Pill would just mean anti-Red Pill but it sounds like it’s something else?!
      - Johnny Silverhand
        
        It’s a whole merry lantern corps of pill poppers!
        Green Pill Corps forever!
      - Dr. NerdLove
        
        “In Brightest ‘chans
        In Darkest web…”
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        And, of course, there’s the Black Pill.
        
        DNL will back me up on this…I’m totally not making it up.
      - Johnny Silverhand
        
        Is that like the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement?
      - Dr. NerdLove
        
        The dude running the Black Pill site is… kind of a special secret squirrel all of his own. https://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/
      - Caliseivy
        
        I see the title, and it tells me I probably don’t want to jump down that rabbit hole…
      - Johnny Silverhand
        
        OH man, that’s. . .it’s just. . .I got nothin’. My whacknut-o-meter doesn’t go that high.
      - H. Savinien
        
        What the fuck.
      - Marty Farley
        
        “The biggest such threat to the advancement of the MRM has been what I call The Paleo-Game Cult, an intersection of the paleo diet, conspiracy theory, Roissysphere game, and several other things.”
        
        There is so much whackadoo in that link, but holy cow, this is GOLD. The guy thinks *Paleo* is somehow a threat to MRA. I just… what. What.
      - Johnny Silverhand
        
        You can see it all here on my wall where I’ve clearly marked out all the connections with colored yarn between newspaper clippings!
      - Reboot
        
        I thought I had seen it all….. apparently not. Hot damn
      - “M”
        
        I know, right??
        I’m looking at “Omega Virgin Revolt” in the link and I’m like
        
        “Nah. Don’t need to. Don’t need to know anything more about that than I already do.”
      - BasFishing
        
        Iron Pill is best pill because it’s just a never-updating altright superhero comic hosted on Tumblr of all places: http://theironpill.tumblr.com/
      - H. Savinien
        
        *jazzhands* Neopagan racism!
      - BasFishing
        
        The brilliant part is that it just randomly mixes it with Deus Vult imagery for some reason.
      - H. Savinien
        
        😐 Great.
      - Imogen
        
        Ah yes, the “Christianity was just not white enough” crowd.
      - H. Savinien
        
        It was founded by a BROWN JEW, guys!
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        Oh, seriously, the Christian Identity movement, which itself grew out of British Israelism is really just…amazing. They have a whole belief system based around the “dual seedline” theory that manages to mix even greater misogyny into their already racist stew.
        
        It’s a real melting pot of crazy that basically says that the tribes of Israel are all Europeans and that the Jews are descended from Cain who is the result of Eve being seduced by the serpent in the garden. Which essentially places Jews as non-humans, and the other “races” make out even worse under their myths.
      - Imogen
        
        O_O
      - H. Savinien
        
        *gag*
      - Marty Farley
        
        http://i.giphy.com/Rt23MIHkCJwdy.gif
      - Imogen
        
        You joke, but it’s a real argument I’ve read people make.
      - H. Savinien
        
        I know. :/
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        The Christian Identity movement is huge within the US and especially among the alt-right and white power movements.
        
        I’m never sure how much of the Norse imagery appropriation is serious and how much is self-aware since I’ve seen people preach Christian Identity gospel while proclaiming that they’re descended from vikings but mostly it boils down to; “Keep the bloodlines pure! I’m going to go jerk off to hentai and cuddle with my waifu body pillow, hail Odin!”
      - H. Savinien
        
        The non-white-supremacist pagans keep lists of sites and things to avoid. Some of the runic imagery has become pretty badly tainted. :/
      - “M”
        
        I need that shot of Idris Elba as Heimdall.
        
        Where’d I put that …??
      - ThatHat
        
        One of my best friends IRL is pagan and pretty heavily involved in the community. She’s said there is a heck of a lot of racism over in the Norse camps. (It’s kind of fun learning about all the drama in the different paganism cultures from her. Loooootttta TERFs…)
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        [MOD] Don’t link out to shit like that please.
      - H. Savinien
        
        Somebody needs to make a chart and shorthand note on what color means what, like for the Lantern Corps.
      - Imogen
        
        I thought the blue pill was just a parody of the red pill, but maybe there’s more to it than that.
  - Ash
    
    Most of the guys dispensing red pill info are older, 40+ and this is the way they are dealing with their failure in their own love lives. There’s only one of them I believe that is married, and I am convinced he has his way with other women when he wants to. Poor wife.
Abigail

LW 3- I feel you so much. I’m doing NaNoWriMo right now, and I’m struggling already. Everyone else seems to have their novel together and their strategies set. It doesn’t help that I’ve lost a lot of my confidence in my writing since the first time I did NaNo. It helps me to know that others are going through the same thing I’m going through and we’re pushing through our doubts and blocks together. Good luck!
- H. Savinien
  
  Frick, NaNo is *hard*. My partner’s trying it for like…the third time? I think. (And is struggling despite the prep because they’re having bad brain days.) I don’t even try it, just use the month to work on some much shorter fanfic holiday gift exchanges, so I’m super impressed that you’re challenging yourself like that.
  - Marty Farley
    
    Fanfic gift exchanges?! Can I be part of your Christmas list? 😀
    - H. Savinien
      
      Well it’s too late for signups for most of them now, but depending on your fandoms, there are a T O N. You make a request ranging from general prompt to detailed description of your likes and dislikes, a second list detailing what you can write, and get matched up (through some sort of wizardry). So you write one and get one, and also get to read everybody else’s. Or do art. I don’t do art, but have received it a couple times. This year, I’m doing one for Good Omens and one for Tolkien fandom (specifically dwarves, yay!).
      
      Though, honestly, depending on your desired fandoms, I *could* probably write you a thing, as I’m going to run out of fic to write before I run out of month if I keep up the pace I’m going. What kinda things do you like?
- Imogen
  
  I’ve had NaNoWriMo planning on my to do list for months and now it’s November 4th and I haven’t written a damn thing. If I don’t have something written by the end of this weekend, I’m calling it off. Not the project, but definitely the illusion that I’m dong nano.
  - “M”
    
    With all the election mishegoss, it had completely slipped my mind it was even happening.
    
    Hasn’t stopped me from crying over my photography, tho …
- Marty Farley
  
  If it helps, I am also doing NaNoWriMo, and I’ve written exactly 500 words. My strategy is just to do my best and attempt to survive. That’s always the flip side of comparison; there are people doing worse than you, as well. 🙂
ThatHat

LW3: Tell you the same thing I heard over and over again from professors and professionals–a brutal critique is one of the best things you can get. Because it means they see potential. No one brutally critiques a kindergartner’s artwork. Or heck, I remember at least one guy in my class who…he just wasn’t good. He’d somehow been at the school for four years without ever really learning to “see” what he was drawing. … No one really gave him very harsh critique. From the way he was drawing (and the way he kept drawing, after years in school), we all kind of knew it would be useless and maybe even a little mean. So we’d sort of say, “Hm, well, maybe the flow would work better if this character were here…” But nothing harsh. Nothing brutal.

I’ve had class critiques and portfolio reviews from professionals that left me shaking and wanting to Explain Everything. But I know those were good–they meant that people took the time to look at my work and give it honest critique, which they wouldn’t’ve bothered to do if they thought I was hopeless.

Brutal critique is a gift. It’s a hard gift to take. But it means that they think you can apply that critique and be even better.

Seconding DNL’s suggestion of talking to your professor. One of my biggest regrets is not forming more of a personal rapport with my college professors (I have with some of them, but I could have done better). Not every professor is going to be your Friend And Special Mentor, but it can’t hurt to make the effort.
- shinobi42
  
  Yes this. If someone is only ever nice about your work, that means they don’t see the ways in which you could be doing better.
- BJWise
  
  Unless the content of the critique is, “You’ll never amount to anything and you should quit right now.” That’s no help at all.
  - ThatHat
    
    I mean, sometimes…sometimes it can be?
    
    I still feel guilty about that one guy. Like, would it have saved him a lot of time and money if some professor had actually sat him down and said: look, I really don’t think you’re cut out for this?
    
    I mean, “you’ll never amount to anything” isn’t critique. But “maybe this isn’t for you; you have difficulty applying critique; you don’t seem to be improving, have you tried something else,”–that can be something people need to hear sometimes.
The Mikey

LW1, the red pill/MGTOW is a joke, a sad sad joke that caught on like break dancing. But hey, at least break dancing is entertaining and requires physical skill and might actually get a guy laid.

…Versus droning on and on about how much women suck or whatever sexist bullshit they spew.

Not saying you do this, LW1, but you sound like a man after my own heart as well. 😛 I’m in a similar boat, but I’ve been reading DNL and spoken to enough women to know that Red Pill/Alpha/whatever is a load of bullshit. It’ll definitely help you understand things from a woman’s perspective if you read/watch/listen to stuff written by women or even speaking to them on a normal level. Now, that won’t land you a nice girlfriend, believe me, but you’ll get a better idea of who they are as people. And that helps.

Disclaimer: I’m still struggling myself, bro.

LW3, OOH OOH! I’m an artist tooooo! 😀

And man… no truer words have ever been spoken. Honestly, we will always be our own worst critics. My advice on the whole art thing? Always ask “How can I make this better?” or at least keep that in mind when you “finish” a piece — art is never finished, only abandoned.

But look, no matter what, there will ALWAYS be someone better. However, there will only ever be one of YOU. So instead of trying to be like Anthony Jones or Sparth or Phil Hale, be you. You may certainly borrow ideas and styles from other artists and make them your own, but that’s what makes YOU unique. Not only that, but look at your old work versus the new stuff you’re doing now and you’re gonna laugh. Why? Because you’ll be blown away by how much better you are now. That and you’ll also have people that’ll look up to *you* as well and ask you questions about art and what you did to make this effect or whatever. That’s part of the fun of being an artist. ;D

In the end, embrace the suck and even verbalize “How can I make this better?” Because a good teacher will tear your work a new asshole and follow up with ideas on how to improve.

Good luck, man. Fellow artists unite! 😀

EDIT: Oh yes, definitely speak to your professor and ask what you can do better!
- Imogen
  
  even speaking to them on a normal level. Now, that won’t land you a nice girlfriend,
  
  It may not be sufficient, but it’s an excellent first step 🙂
Imogen

LiT: Could you distance yourself from her without actually “breaking up?” E.g. only hanging out in groups and actively avoiding one on one time? I don’t know if this is a) helpful or b) what you’re already doing, but I’ve found it easier to avoid pining over people I have to see if I don’t spend the end of every night talking with them and re-noticing how great we are together. Friendly but distant is a good place to be.
Dan Brodribb

First of all, LW1, I think you’re allowed to want what you want. It’s okay to want to be loved for who you are. I think that’s what most of us want. And the good news is, it’s out there.

If it’s something you decide you really want, when you’re ready, I hope you’ll take active steps to find that. For me, it meant (and still means) being willing to make changes in the way I think, behave, or present myself and not all of those changes are easy or comfortable to make.

For me though, they have (and continue to be) worth it.

Personally, I found a lot out of PUA stuff helpful when I started out. After a while it stopped being helpful.

I don’t think anybody *has* to go that route–people have been figuring this stuff out long before these guys came on the scene–but if you want to stick your toe in that water and see how it works for you,my off-the-top-of-my-head advice would be:

1-Know your own values and stick to them
2- Be willing to try things that don’t feel comfortable. How much you try is much more rewarding long-term than how much you read.
3- Pay attention to your experience over PUA ideology–in other words, recognize what things are and aren’t working for you values or results-wise
4 – Be open to changing your mind–about what you believe about yourself, but also what you believe about women, what PUAs are like, other people in your life, etc.
5 – Have a strong non-PUA presence in your life (my experience in PUA-land was we tended to ‘amplify each other’s crazy’ when we gathered in numbers or were exposed only to each other for extended periods of time) to keep yourself grounded
6 – Expect a lot of emotional highs and lows, maybe more than you’ve experienced before on both ends if you don’t have a lot of dating experience.
7 – Do your best not to be a jerk to people, women obviously, but also other guys, people who don’t get what you’re doing or why it’s important to you, etc.
8 – Recognize when it’s time to walk away.
9 – Try and have fun and enjoy the process of learning something you haven’t done before over any specific results

That last one is important. Especially on the internet, between Red Pill-ers and Social Justice, we tend to focus on problems which tends to paint a grim picture of dating and gender differences.

But there really is a lot of joy to be had, both in the journey itself, and in dating, sex, and relationships in general. Regardless of how things work out, people are generally pretty great, if you give them and yourself a chance.

Good luck.
shinobi42

For LW3 I wanted to link this amazing article from Ira Glass about Creativity and Taste and how we develop as creative people: https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/02/22/ira-glass-on-the-secret-of-success/
PintsizeBro

1. That’s awesome
2. I have the exact same problem
- TinyTeacup
  
  The worst part is when I have world, characters, AND an actual story to tell, because then it’s like “Oh shit! I know exactly what I want to do with this! I don’t know how to deal with that! I don’t think I can pull this off!”
  
  For example, I have this story idea that involves a world where people can change other living things, including other people, just by touching them. The dominant philosophy is that altering other people is deeply immoral and wrong, but some people think that’s wrong and they should be able to change people to save their life or help them, and others think it should go further and they should be able to change themselves to be the people they really are. And I know what I want to do with this world, I’m just scared that I wouldn’t be able to pull it off, so I continue to build characters and build the world and develop the various groups and read about plastic surgery, other body modification, transitioning, and so forth, because if I ever took a stab at actually writing it I’d like to do it without accidentally being an asshole.
  
  On the plus side, thinking about this world has led me to think a lot about what I think it means to be true to yourself, how who we’re born as affects who we are and who we become, and what the balance is between realizing how you on the outside affects you on the inside while you on the inside affects you on the outside. I don’t want this story to be preachy, and I want to leave room for others to draw their own conclusions, but it’s kinda a heavy subject and I don’t think it’s a story I can tackle right now.
  - H. Savinien
    
    You might try it in bits? Like, write a short story from the POV of a specific person in that world? Just a little character study or day-in-the-life.
    - TinyTeacup
      
      That’s my approach so far, along with the building out the outline I have.
  - PintsizeBro
    
    Oh, yeah. I’ve got a character who’s been bouncing around in my head since 2008 and I’ve got quite a lot of notes compiles on her at this point. I have a general sense of where I want her story to go, but I don’t know how to get there. That story is substantially different from yours, but similarly it deals with some heavy stuff and I want to be sensitive about it.
Imogen

WBSL: Do you have other teachers with whom you could pursue a closer relationship and/or get more help? There is never only one gatekeeper to artistic success, and you don’t necessarily need to keep banging your head on the wall of this one teacher who gives brutal critiques if their style doesn’t work for you.
Ash

Beta guy sounds pretty much perfect. He’s the guy I’d be interested in, (if I weren’t already attached). The relationship he wants is the kind of relationship I have and have had for 9 years.

To him, I’d say that the pua and red pill stuff he’s reading is for an audience that doesn’t really include him. All that alpha male, robotic, macho man baloney only works long enough with women to get them laid with easy, naive, and probably drunk women. That’s all these guys are looking for and that’s all they are going to get when they act the way they do. No woman in her right mind would tolerate the behavior that they encourage for longer than that.

This guy is young and I’d assume only has a few non-serious girlfriends in his past. It takes time and patience but if he keeps his eye open and doesn’t overdose on the red pill nonsense, he can eventually get the woman and relationship he’s looking for.
- Imogen
  
  …to get them laid with easy, naive, and probably drunk women.
  
  There was a way to criticize red pill without being quite so negative about the people it’s used on.
  - Ash
    
    You’re right. It’s just that it does irk me though that any women are giving these guys any positive attention at all. I was once in their place and it’s really not that hard to see when a guy is trying to play you or use you in some way he shouldn’t be. Most men like these red pill guys are loaded with red flags and it seems like young women are either clueless or just don’t care. I just wish women would wise up and stop being so vulnerable.Don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame them, but the only way these guys are going to stop acting the way they do is if women stop going home with them.
    - Jimmy Two-Hammers
      
      ” I just wish women would wise up and stop being so vulnerable.”
      
      I think that’s part of the issue; RP trains men to target vulnerable women. Whether they’re emotionally vulnerable or compromised by drink or drugs, and then to specifically target those vulnerabilities in ways like gaslighting and testing the relationship (if it gets that far) in order to get what they want.
      
      It doesn’t help that those vulnerablilities are often instilled by society from a young age, and RP (and many men in general) know to target those areas for leverage.
      - “M”
        
        “I just wish women would wise up and stop being so vulnerable.”
        
        Oh, please.
        
        I just wish that men who are real busy telling us women what to do would stop and think about what they call us and how they treat us when we’re NOT vulnerable.
      - BJWise
        
        You do know he was quoting the person he was replying to, don’t you? And I think the commenter in question is a woman. This is the second time in like two minutes you’ve jumped down someone’s throat out of your failure to comprehend words.
      - “M”
        
        Not only do I know it, but it’s equally clear that YOU couldn’t figure it out.
        
        (It is, BTW, one of the reasons I put it in quotes.)
        
        And I don’t recall your even having been invited to this particular conversation, so there’s no reason whatsoever for you to come barging in, let alone try to address someone you don’t even know – and be completely wrong to boot.
        
        LOL.
        
        Now, kindly butt out.
      - Jimmy Two-Hammers
        
        She had upvoted me and shifted to a different, but related, topic in a way that added to what I said. It wasn’t directed at me and I could tell that because she wasn’t directing the comment at me but talking about certain men in general.
        
        “You do know he was quoting the person he was replying to, don’t you? ”
        
        If you want clarity on something, your first comment would have been fine without calling someone out with an insult.
        
        I can actually understand the confusion, but you could have stopped right there.
        
        “This is the second time in like two minutes you’ve jumped down someone’s throat out of your failure to comprehend words.”
        
        I mean, besides the fact that M comprehended my words fine and you misunderstood her (which isn’t a sin) this is just you looking for a fight, and you’re looking for a fight because the first person was you.
      - ThatHat
        
        Not to mention when we *aren’t* vulnerable, that opens us up to a whole ‘nother set of insults. And sometimes danger (“cold” women need to be thawed/broken, y’know.)
    - H. Savinien
      
      People who are manipulated and maneuvered into social corners where it’s safer to go along with someone than object and maybe get hurt are not the ones who are at fault in this situation.
      - Ash
        
        I agree, they aren’t at fault, but how do we avoid this situation from occurring?
      - Johnny Silverhand
        
        Honest answer – slowly, generationally, by reducing the number of predators. In the short term, by being vigilant and keeping an eye out for people who are likely to be targeted and people likely to be doing the targeting.
        In a group of a few hundred people, there will be someone who’s vulnerable. Maybe she had too much to drink. Maybe she just got out of an abusive relationship. Maybe she just doesn’t have her guard up. Predatory people are good at two things: flying under the radar and spotting vulnerable people.
        So keep an eye on your friends. Listen to them when they talk about how someone in your social circle is manipulative or abusive. Be ready to step in when the need arises.
      - Ash
        
        Good advice. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
      - Wraith
        
        You’re saying PUA techniques are all essentially rape? They only work through coercion and the threat of violence? I don’t think any PUA techniques are like this. The very worst come close unfortunately, but there are many schools covering a whole range of approaches. What they do have in common is a disdain for women and an obsession with casual sex. And that most of them don’t really work.
      - ThatHat
        
        I think a good chunk of the PUA techniques lean heavily on coercion. Badgering someone until they say “yes.” And some of them, whether they lead to sex or not, are straight up sexual assault.
    - BJWise
      
      I don’t know that they’d stop if it stopped working. They’ve bought into a worldview that horrible misogynist bullshit is what women respond to. OTOH, they get that idea at least partly from seeing women go home with the guys who are naturally alpha male douchebags.
Maril

LW1 – If you just want a shitty relationship where your partner is constantly feeling like crap about herself and terrified you’re going to leave her, sure, use the redpill ‘advice’. Advice that seems specifically designed to make a woman be with you only because she believes she can’t do any better rather than actually wanting to be with you. That’s totally ‘alpha’ <_< I mean, completely changing who you are to conform with a set definition of masculine is totally the same as being confident and genuinely awesome/appealing. Being comfortable enough in who you are to not think your partner will run screaming the second she doesn't think she's worthless is soooo pathetic. [Please note the heavy sarcasm]

If you want a relationship built on mutual respect and affection, just put yourself out there. Be vulnerable. Be affectionate. Show you care in little ways like remembering her favourite drink, or making time for her even if all you can do is squeeze in a few quick texts. Build a foundation of love and trust and a relationship that's MUTUALLY beneficial where *both* of you can become better, happier people for being in it. Relationships like that do still exist. Just, go do things you enjoy, meet other people who enjoy them to. Try something new. Make new friends. Even if you don't find someone for a while at least you can have fun trying 🙂 Plus it helps you embrace who you are and who you want to be rather than enforcing that you should be someone else. My god how boring would the world be if everyone had to conform to such strict rules as to who they could be…
Devbless

Sort of off topic but still relevant to LW 1.

How often do you see yourselves getting negatively affected by the things you read/watch?

I’ve always been adamant of reading, I’m an incredibly curious person and I ultimately believe knowledge is power, even the knowledge of how NOT to do things.
But lately I find myself struggling with it, for instance, I’ve always liked a bit of down music, say, The XX, but lately I’m feeling so down that these things kind of pull me further.
Or philosophical books, I just started reading Zen and The art of motorcycle maintenance, which as a student of philosophy is bloody brilliant, but at the same time it makes me question my own mental health.

So how do you guys feel about that one?
- Mike
  
  It certainly lends credence to the notion of not believing everything you hear/read.
KitKat

LW1, in addition to the smart things people have already said, please be aware that Red Pill (the toxic shit aside) carries heavy survivor bias, they like every human being alive have a deeply subjective analysis of what variables were at play in an encounter AND, and this is the most important bit: When you base your appeal on [whatever “alpha” means on 5th november 2016], you will attract people to whom those traits matter and also get sorted out by people who look at what you’re putting out and go “not for me”.

You might just end up scaring off the people you actually want to connect with. Don’t fall for it.

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