全 50 件のコメント

[–]Personage1 54ポイント55ポイント  (34子コメント)

The problem with many male spaces currently is that it is for stereotypical men. That is to say, they act to reinforce gender roles. Part of why there is so much pushback against male spaces is that this described basically all of society.

A male space worth having would, almost by definition, refuse to allow reinforcement of gender roles as the fundamental first step. It would draw in analysis of how men are generally socialized, and question the idea that because someone acts a certain way it's automatically good.

For example, there are a lot of sexual desires that fall along gender lines. While this isn't inherently bad, it also shouldn't be taken for granted that this is inherently good either, and the male space would ask where these tendencies come from. The goal would be introspection and analysis of self.

I think these types of spaces are very important.

[–]ThatPersonGu 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

What exactly would that, well, look like?

Tis some beautiful analysis there, I'm being honest here, but how would you structure a group around such concepts? Would you take the typical social justice perspective of policing the language used and controlling the conversation (not saying this is a bad thing)? A book club sort of structure? More forward activism?

[–]Personage1 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I guess I was thinking about like a sub reddit like this one, or a college club or something. Something where you can have a topic of the week or something, while also allowing men the breathing room to just shoot the shit without having to worry about conforming. It would have to be a sort of safe space structure to ensure that men feel free to just be who they are without concern.

But there would also have to be a requirement for decency and self reflection. It's frankly too easy to fall back on the assumption that acting masculine is correct and good and just taking that for granted, and places like r/femradebates show what happens when people can just be shitty to each other.

[–]TacoCatReturns 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

For example, there are a lot of sexual desires that fall along gender lines.

What are you talking about, because I dont think this is an inherently male thing. Women have sexual desires, and find certain things more attractive. Obviously women's preferences aren't monolithic, everybody is different, but if the majority, say 70% likes some specific trait, most people are going to say it's a safe bet to try and imitate that trait.

So as an example, I'm not a very "masculine" person, and I see how I am treated differently for it. It's never anything truly personal, Im not saying people see it as wrong to be a kind of effeminate, submissive man, but it's not a super desirable trait. My first girlfriend in high school would tall me, "you need to think with your dick!" and "think like a man/be a man" and I had no idea what that meant. I still kind of dont--you have vague generalizations of what that means, but how do you act on it? So she eventually got bored/annoyed of me and dumped me, and I kinda took it hard, but it's like, what is "man enough"? A lot of women are not attracted to submissive men, is it toxically masculine to emulate being a "manly man" when you arent, would that make your life better, or something?

I see a lot of articles decrying "toxic masculinity" and saying theyre going to raise the next generation of men to be in touch with their emotions. I kind of dont like those articles because a) I dont think that's really enough and b) I feel like it kind of misses the mark on a lot of issues. Most men are emotional, and in touch with their emotions. But there is still sort of a beast around that--its how you regulate or deal with them, how society treats you for it, stuff like that. There's more to it than just "well now you can defy gender roles!" You could always defy gender roles, you would just be ostracized for it.

Saying the way to deal with "toxic masculinity" is as simple as "teaching men to be 'better'/in touch with their emotions/less toxically masculine" or whatever, is kind of like saying that gender equality is mostly about women's suffrage. It's kind of only touching the surface of a deep and multifaceted issue.

[–]Personage1 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

For example, there are a lot of sexual desires that fall along gender lines. What are you talking about, because I dont think this is an inherently male thing.

So to start, saying there are sexual desires that fall along gender lines is already pretty inherently acknowledging that this is not just men.

To elaborate on my example for sexuality, here is what I would do with that topic.

To start, the discussion would look at what society says is male sexuality. Maybe make a long list. Then I would have everyone reflect on how their own interests line up with that list. Then I would discuss what male sexuality that doesn't conform could look like. The goal is to be self reflective and try to get a picture of ways of being that aren't part of the stereotype and focus on how really any desire can be healthy and fine. We should feel free to be attracted to whatever, regardless of what society tells us. (There are obvious limits to this but I'm not going to talk about that in this reply).

Then I would discuss relationships and gendered expectations. Look at how the people we are interested in may expect us to fit certain roles, and how to navigate that. I know I was lucky growing up to have parents who pointed out sexism to me constantly, and prepared me to move through life deciding how I wanted to deal with it. Some things I note as problematic but not enough for me to really make a big deal of in my life, while others became important enough to be a deal breaker if they came up.

If the conversation was to turn to actual dating advice, then it would delve even more into balancing being your own person with the knowledge of sexism in society, all with the eye towards putting your future happiness ahead of toxic instant gratification. That is to say, if you can find healthy ways to date in high school then awesome, but if not then the focus would be to do the same thing thousands of kids do who don't fit into the standard sex and sexuality spectrum: focus on yourself until you are old enough and then move somewhere where you will find more acceptance.

Because this is the thing about people who cling to gender roles, especially with dating. They are viewed as many things, one if which is immature. It is more understandable to see in high school and college, but past that it is less and less viewed as a good thing, or at the very least people will be more open to questioning it.

[–]PantalonesPantalones 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not OP but I assumed he was referencing strip clubs or breasteraunts.

[–]TacoCatReturns 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure but women are attracted to the same sort of things with regards to men. My mom and even my sister talk about men in the way that you hear men talk about women. Basically "locker room talk".

I get that it's not okay (I try and catch myself if I feel like Im saying something shitty, just because morals) and it's not really a matter of "who did it first/who has it worse" but Ive heard plenty of it. There exists strip clubs for women with rock-hard, chiseled men, and even restaurants with the same premise as Hooters. And to a degree, I think men like being objectified, there are plenty of men who say they want that kind of attention, but that's not here or there with regards to this topic.

Im trying to say this is not necessarily a gendered issue but a human one. There's never going to be just like, one true answer, that I can think of. They're always going to sell sex (and companionship, to losers, whatever).

[–][削除されました]  (25子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]LewsTherinTelamon_ 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think it depends on whether gender roles are something forced or someone's personal choice. A supportive environment for men would encourage a traditionally masculine man to continue being traditionally masculine, and it would encourage someone who doesn't fit into gender roles to be himself without trying to fit in.

    So, a supportive enviroment would need to oppose gender roles as something forced, but would support a person if they choose to fit into traditional gender roles.

    [–]CorenMajere 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I broadly agree with this, but with the caveat that there is a difference between excluding someone from a particular space and discouraging them from trying to "be himself without trying to fit in", at least for spaces which a person isn't forced to participate in. For example, consider this sub's sidebar:

    Members are not required to identify as feminist, but if you disagree with this foundational approach you are welcome not to participate.

    [–]Soltheron 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

    fixing men to fit your ideology

    Wanting to leave gender roles at the door is not some sort of leftist marxist plot to steal your soul. What it does is that it allows us more self-reflection while creating an environment that accepts all forms of men, regardless of how well they fit stereotypes. It is the people who don't conform who are most likely to need the help in the first place.

    You are right that men will often lack support structures in society, but the strict gender roles we're talking about is a huge part of why that is.

    If people didn't already shit on men for showing emotions, and if men didn't accept that as "just biology", it would be a lot easier for them to seek help in the first place and create a demand for something that is already needed.

    [–]CorenMajere 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Wanting to leave gender roles at the door is not some sort of leftist marxist plot to steal your soul.

    What does leftist marxism have to do with my argument? (Or stealing souls for that matter--didn't marxism embrace atheism and reject the notion of a soul?) I'm not arguing that wanting to leave gender roles at the door is bad. I'm arguing that not all men will be comfortable with it and therefore it should be okay for some men's spaces to create an environment that caters to them.

    What it does is that it allows us more self-reflection while creating an environment that accepts all forms of men, regardless of how well they fit stereotypes.

    I disagree. Men's spaces should be focused on creating an environment conducive to helping the men they are trying to help. In some cases, that environment may not be conducive to helping all men and some may very well involve reinforcing gender norms. I think that's okay and perhaps even necessary in some cases.

    It is the people who don't conform who are most likely to need the help in the first place.

    That doesn't mean that those who do conform don't need help, nor that there are fewer of them in absolute terms. More to the point though, some of those who do conform may not be comfortable in spaces designed to support those who don't and vice versa. Mandating that every space cater to everyone is therefore likely to cause some men to not get the help they need.

    [–]Soltheron 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

    it should be okay for some men's spaces to create an environment that caters to them.

    Except what's going to happen then is something akin to missionary work where Men's Rights groups and such will attach ideological strings to the help. We already know this happens through CAFE in Canada.

    In some cases, that environment may not be conducive to helping all men and some may very well involve reinforcing gender norms. I think that's okay and perhaps even necessary in some cases.

    You'd really have to be much more specific to get me to even remotely agree on this, because I don't see how this would be a good idea at all.

    [–]CorenMajere 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Except what's going to happen then is something akin to missionary work where Men's Rights groups and such will attach ideological strings to the help. We already know this happens through CAFE in Canada.

    And what's wrong with that? The OP attached ideological strings to the help as well. In my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with a particular group attaching ideological strings the the help they provide. I take issue when they try to force everyone to adhere to those ideological strings when providing help.

    You'd really have to be much more specific to get me to even remotely agree on this, because I don't see how this would be a good idea at all.

    See this old comment chain for some examples.

    [–]Soltheron 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    That's a false equivalence. Even if we're to consider a safe space for everyone ideological in nature, it's certainly a billion times better than toxic MRA rhetoric being fed to the victims seeking help.

    See this old comment chain for some examples.

    Ok...there's some really silly stuff in here, like this one:

    they don't deserve to be hurt simply because of their misogynistic behavior....I am very specifically talking about men who are making misogynistic rants, and even more specifically, doing so in dedicated forums that women don't have to visit if they choose not to.

    Yeah, they are doing the hurting right there in the first place. Not only are they shitting on women and reinforcing everyone else around them, it's not even healthy venting.

    No way in hell is a place like /r/mensrights or red pill helpful to anyone who goes there.

    [–]CorenMajere 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

    OP said (emphasis mine):

    A male space worth having would, almost by definition, refuse to allow reinforcement of gender roles as the fundamental first step. It would draw in analysis of how men are generally socialized, and question the idea that because someone acts a certain way it's automatically good.

    That is very much not equivalent to saying "a safe space for everyone". It is blatant feminist rhetoric--rhetoric that men apparently have to accept as a first step to getting help. The fact that it happens to be rhetoric that you agree with doesn't change that.

    Yeah, they are doing the hurting right there in the first place. Not only are they shitting on women and reinforcing everyone else around them, it's not even healthy venting.

    So what you are saying is when a man is hurting and is looking for support, the focus should be on preventing him from saying something that may hurt other people's feelings rather than trying to be sympathetic to him and his problems?

    [–]Soltheron [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

    That is very much not equivalent to saying "a safe space for everyone".

    Yes, it is. I'm sorry that's hard for you to grasp. Everyone can fit into a big round hole, but not everyone will fit into a smaller square one.

    So what you are saying is when a man is hurting and is looking for support, the focus should be on preventing him from saying something that may hurt other people's feelings rather than trying to be sympathetic to him and his problems?

    This isn't really that difficult. Surely you wouldn't be ok with someone shooting up a diner and holding hostages just because they're feeling hurt. It can lead to that, yes, but it's not a solution, it's a dead end.

    There are other ways to help than to let someone act like an asshole, which isn't really helping them in the first place.

    [–]CorenMajere [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Yes, it is. I'm sorry that's hard for you to grasp. Everyone can fit into a big round hole, but not everyone will fit into a smaller square one.

    Support groups are a bit more complicated than fitting everyone into a giant round hole. Men already self-censor to an unhealthy degree, so creating an environment they feel comfortable opening up in is critical. I don't think it is possible to create an environment that will work for all men.

    There are other ways to help than to let someone act like an asshole, which isn't really helping them in the first place.

    Then why do we call it "empowering" when women do it?

    [–]Personage1 17ポイント18ポイント  (7子コメント)

    If you conform to male gender roles, everywhere is a male space. All of society protects the status quo.

    What doesn't get supported are men who do not conform. That is what needs help.

    Male spaces need to support men as a primary goal. If you think they should "almost by definition" be fixing men to fit your ideology rather than supporting them, then I really have to question your motives.

    The issue is that they need to support all men, not just men who conform to society. My "idealogy" is that there is no correct way to be a man, and if someone tries to suggest there is then that person is being toxic.

    [–]CorenMajere 25ポイント26ポイント  (6子コメント)

    If you conform to male gender roles, everywhere is a male space. All of society protects the status quo.

    Men's greatest advantage in society--agency--is also their greatest weakness. Men are disproportionately rewarded for their successes, but are also disproportionately punished for their failings. People typically don't need support when they are already succeeding...

    And even if you disagree with that assessment, I'd hope you'd at least consider that it is disingenuous to expect men to support social changes that make the default less of a "male space" while they are simultaneously being told that they don't need male spaces because "everywhere" is.

    The issue is that they need to support all men, not just men who conform to society.

    I disagree. The issue is that all men need spaces where they can get support. Not all male spaces need to support all men.

    [–]Personage1 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I frankly don't think you understand my point, but also find it difficult to believe that it's because what I wrote was super cryptic or something.

    Lets try another route. Could you explain what distinctions I am making between different types of male spaces?

    [–]CorenMajere 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

    When I'm saying "male space", I'm specifically referring to spaces where men can go to get support of some kind when they need it--I'll elaborate further below. If you are using the term more generally to refer to any space where men are advantaged in some way, then we're probably talking past each other. If this is the case, then I apologize, as I'd agree with your assessment that everywhere is a male space by that definition.

    I believe the idea that "everywhere" is a space that supports men is a view that can only be held if one ignores the survivorship bias implicit in the male gender role--that is, the male gender role encourages men to hide and silently suffer through any problems they may have, and thus men who need support--even men who conform to society's view of what it is to be a man--are often unable to find it.

    [–]Personage1 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I'm specifically referring to spaces where men can go to get support of some kind when they need it-

    But this is inherently anti-masculine according to society.

    And you are sort of right; "everywhere" is a male space because to be male is to not need help, not have emotional problems.

    Whereas the male space I want is one where men are free to not conform to these ideals of masculinity.

    [–]CorenMajere 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    But this is inherently anti-masculine according to society.

    Not if the support they are getting is indirect. For example, drinking and profanity are common (but not necessarily always healthy) ways for men to cope with problems and society doesn't typically view them as anti-masculine behavior. A more healthy example would be sportsmanship.

    to be male is to not need help

    I think it's a bit more nuanced than this. It's generally okay or even considered laudable for men to fail or need help, as long as they don't complain or ask for help because of it.

    [–]Personage1 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Look, at this point it seems like you just want me to be wrong about something. Sure, I didn't write yet another multi paragraph response outlying all the nuances of what I was talking about.

    Your acknowledge that there is a way for men to act "masculine" and seem to accept that this is generally viewed as good by society while being constricting. Despite all of your responses seeming to be intended to disagree with me, that's basically what I said originally.

    [–]Dewey_Darl[M] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You make some good points here, but you're putting words in Personage1's mouth a bit. Refusing to allow reinforcement of gender roles is a far cry from "fixing men". The end of the comment is a bit unnecessarily personal as well.

    [–]CorenMajere 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't think that was my intention. Does my edit help?

    [–]Black_Orchid13 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The "space" initially described seems like it would be more harmful than helpful to men, in my opinion. Like you said, it would be for your stereotypical men. The comments about men being emasculated and "feminism going further than intended" are just some major red flags. It seems to me it would be a hell of a red pill space that tons of men wouldn't even be comfortable in.

    [–]deathcompanychaplain 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

    "Masculinity denies us the capacity for emotion and vulnerability by insisting that any expression of it must be accompanied by shows of strength and power. It rejects fragility in favour of might, and dismisses vulnerability as weakness."

    What nonsense. Me and my friends thrive in male dominated environments (in sports, the gym and our local warhammer club) and masculinity isn't harmful here at all, we're competitive and failures are met with playful teasing but ultimately worked through collectively.

    [–]0vinq0 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, I'm not sure if this author mistakenly chose his words poorly or if he really believes that "masculinity itself harms [men]". Either way, the way he worded it is really unacceptable... This is why we need to be so careful in how we hold these conversations. It sounds like he's one of the many who doesn't understand the distinction of toxic masculinity, and then went the opposite way of the typical response and embraced the horribly insulting idea that masculine traits are inherently harmful at every level.

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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      [–]thatgeekinit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Maybe I want to eat red meat, drink beer and watch NFL Red Zone without social pressure even entering into it.

      [–]unclefisty 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Honestly? I don't even know.

      [–]TheJonesSays 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

      The YMCA.

      Get it?

      [–]derivative_of_life 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Young man! There's no need to feel down, I said
      Young man! Pick yourself off the ground, I said
      Young man! Cause you're in a new town
      There's no need to be unhappy

      [–]Bahamutisa 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I feel like I'm not quite understanding what this article is getting at. On the one hand it says that "Many 'men only' spaces right now tend to reinforce unhealthy and/or regressive social norms, and negatively contribute to what our culture views as the masculine ideal", but then also turns around and says "But we shouldn't try to get rid of those, because the men might Do The Bad Thing". So if men aren't joining men's spaces that don't reinforce toxic ideals and norms but we shouldn't denounce the groups that do reinforce them, then what exactly are we supposed to be doing to lessen the influence of those communities? After rereading the article, I feel like there's still something that I'm missing.

      [–]Anonymissellaneous 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think his point is that we shouldn't ridicule or attack them. We should do a better job of explaining why these types of clubs aren't great without mocking the people trying to start them.

      [–]thatgeekinit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I don't think the author had much of a point because he is barely out of college and a freelance writer who probably sits in coffee shops all day and doesn't understand yet how men gradually lose friendships over time and basically end up with no social life outside of their marriage.

      [–]thatgeekinit 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well fraternal organizations do exist. I'm not talking about drunken fraternity parties, but things like Masons/Elks and their various religiously/ethnicity/profession affiliated counterparts.

      Also many religious organizations have men-only events/groups.

      The problem with a lot of them is that as membership shrank they became drinking clubs for old men but I know some people my age in Masons and in religious men's clubs.

      [–]LewsTherinTelamon_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I don't really agree with the article. I don't think gendered spaces are a good idea, but I don't think the example from the article is bad, since it's not for men in general, but for a specific kind of personality (being traditionally masculine) so to me it seems more like a club for like-minded people. What I think is worse are spaces that are solely defined by gender (as in "everyone welcome, as long as you're male/female"), since it perpetuates an unnecessary gender divide, and is much more likely to unfairly exclude people. In the case of a "manly man" group, the only people excluded from it are people who wouldn't be interested in joining anyway.

      [–]Talexandria 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think the basic idea is good as long as males are working on things that help them become better people. Of course, working on those things ought to be more productive if ladies aren't present.