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[–]wordjedi 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

in US and you sign a pre-nup it is very clear cut and prenup trumps all so you can protect all your assets.

Not true. In the US judges can throw them out even if it's a legal prenup.

Unconscionable Terms

The terms of your prenup must not be unconscionable, particularly if your state does not impose a waiting period between the time of the signing and your wedding, or if your spouse waived her right to separate legal counsel – that is, if a lawyer would have told her that what she was agreeing to was blatantly unfair. An unconscionable premarital contract is one that is so grossly one-sided, the judge would have to wonder about the circumstances under which your spouse signed it. For example, if your agreement states that everything you earned or acquired before your wedding is yours, that all property acquired during your marriage is yours, and that your spouse has no right to either spousal support or an equitable division of property, the court will probably void your prenup because its terms are unconscionable.

So call it a "prenuptial suggestion".

Marriage is a serious financial assets contract, that women throw away like a high school romance. And then we have to pay them.

[–]BruceJennerTesticles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So call it a "prenuptial suggestion".

Moreover, in the US, beyond the base assets that the parties bring into the marriage (which can, to a certain extent -- and if CAREFULLY maintained as "separate" assets -- be "walled off" by a prenup)...

The instant any "child" (or multiple children) is added to the picture, everything else in terms of "marital dissolution" gets dumped overboard.

[–]EconomistMagazine 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know you're not American but I only know about America. I used to live in California and did when I first went MGTOW so I'll copy from some notes this summer I originally made just for myself. Look for each of the 6 concepts I mentioned here and see if they apply in your region. If nothing else think of this as a general guide and know YMMV.

TLDR is that you can't. You can't protect yourself. No matter how lock tight you think your logic is no lawyer worth their salt will guarantee you perfect protection. TFM did a great video on this but he has a lot of anecdotes from news articles. I feel it illustrated the point well but its still specific to that case. If you'd rather just read the personal research that I did then see below, I spent several hours gathering this together.

Key concepts here screwing men over are

1) Community Property

2) No Fault Divorce

3) Prenups Must Be Fair

4) You can NEVER get out of paying child support

5) if money ends up changing hands for alimony or child support odds are you will pay MORE than she will.

6) Common Law Marriage - Thankfully this doesn't exist in California but it may well exist in Canada or HK.

GREAT WEBSITES

www.CAdivorce.com

http://www.divorcenet.com/states/california

MY PERSONAL NOTES

The reality of legal principles that actually govern marriages in California.

  • Community Property State – marriage assets are split 50/50. Almost nothing is set aside as personal property, with almost everything being “marriage” and joint assets. The only exceptions to this are gifts, inheritances, and if the prenup specifically mentioned it like maybe certain real property or something. Without a prenup it actually doesn’t matter whose name is on the property; if it was acquired during the marriage its community property. A prenup CAN protect against this. If you have a house as separate property before the marriage, and your spouse significantly contributed to the value of the house, they would have claim to it without a prenup but you can limit that claim WITH one. Interestingly earnings are community property. This can be limited with a prenup but normally your spouse would get half of what you earn and anything that that half buys (thus you can earn your own money and pay off your own house but they “contributed” their community property portion of your earnings towards the house and they can lay claim to it). This seems like one of the most flexible areas of prenup law supported by this direct quote here “A prenup can regulate all aspects of how separate and community property assets and liabilities are treated. In the case of a financially independent couple with their own resources, a prenup can provide that all income, assets and debts acquired or incurred remain separate property. On the other hand, a couple might agree that all property accumulated during the marriage remain community property but that certain property brought into the marriage, such as family businesses or funds, always remains separate. Since each situation is different, a prenup should be carefully tailored to meet the circumstances of each couple.”

  • No Fault Divorce – California, like many other states, is a no fault divorce state. This means that the petitioner of the divorce only cites “irreconcilable differences” and does not have to point to a “fault” in the marriage. This means the divorce can be initiated by anyone for any reason and plays into the community property idea as well. Interestingly enough if you DO want a divorce then there is nothing the other partner can do to stop you, they can only delay the inevitable.

    • No Common Law Marriage – according to the research I’ve read there is no common law marriage in California. This applies even if you live together and present yourself as a married couple as long as you don’t intend on getting married. This is great news but is slightly undermined by a court case from 1976 called Marvin v Marvin discussed below.
    • Stuff - Marvin Claim – this court case says non-marital partners have the right to enforce expressed or implied agreements for support or property sharing in the event of a separation. Such a claim must be brought to court in a civil action. This is sometimes called Palimony and relies on 3 basic principles and some specific issues 1) how long did they live together, 2) did one support the other, 3) did they jointly contribute to buying property. Specific issues cover working for the other or the other’s company, jointly creating things of value, and expressed or implied agreements of shared ownership of property. The expressed or implied warranties, as I’ve learned from legal class, can be very complicated, tricky, and binding indeed.
  • Children Custody Mediation – Evidently many California custody battles are fought via mediation. This seems like a bad deal for me as I’m going to assume I would be the better parent of any potential children and mediation seems like it puts both partners on equal footing more than a court. Maybe I’m wrong since it’s a Community Property state but whatever. This sounds like something that can be taken to court and mediation might only apply during temporary custody fights that take place before a court hearing.

  • Income - Alimony – sometimes called spousal support, is still real and ongoing. California law (Family Code Section 4336(a)) says that where a marriage is "of long duration," the court "retains jurisdiction" indefinitely after the divorce is completed, unless the spouses agree otherwise. That seems scary as fuck. Especially AFTER a divorce why would the state hold jurisdiction over the decisions of the divorce. I guess that’s a way to enforce alimony payments and stuff but whatever. Any marriage over 10 years in length is automatically considered of long duration but marriages of shorter times can be considered as well. What’s fucked up the most is that its indefinite security for the winning party. Commonly courts will award alimony for half the duration of the marriage.

  • Prenups must be fair – This is up for the court to decide during divorce proceedings, not really up to the lawyers and signatories. If a prenuptial agreement is deemed unconscionable then it is invalid. I suppose this is to protect an unsuspecting spouse. Legal resources I’ve read/listened to INSIST that you have independent legal representation, one for each spouse, before signing a prenuptial agreement. Otherwise one spouse could claim ignorance or intoxication or was signing under duress and such claims would invalidate a prenup. One example given in waiving spousal support states that if a complete ban on support was signed, a long term marriage took place, one spouse was significantly wealthier, and such a lack of alimony would leave the other partner destitute the judge “may think twice” about the fairness of that clause and could throw it out. One suggestion to mitigate this is if one spouse is significantly wealthier than the other is to create a modest formula of support based on the income gap and length of the marriage. This would only nip the unfairness in the bud though and not eliminate it, but the ball would be in your court so to speak. If there is a significant difference between what the courts would do with and without the agreement then its likely they will rule on it being fair/unfair. This covers things such as ridiculous provisions as well. A no weight gain clause, frequency of sexual intercourse, and other wild haired ideas will get the prenup thrown out.

    • Other prenup specifics - This extends to oral or written agreements as to the state of the prenup at different times. One woman cited by a news article got her prenup thrown out because she claimed her husband said orally that they would dissolve the prenup once children were born. 3 kids later she divorces, and gets way more control and money than the prenup accounted for. If you get a prenup after the engagement but before the marriage then she can claim coercion. As mentioned earlier without legal representation she can get the prenup thrown out as well.

[–]EconomistMagazine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Continued:

  • Income – Child Support – definitely a thing. The state will pay the wife ahead of time and put the delinquent spouse in arrears. You CANNOT prenup away child support. Divorce.net states some interesting language about child support. “California prenups cannot regulate child custody or child support – these are areas that are left to the court’s authority based on what is in the child’s best interests and, at least in part on the California child support guidelines. Child support is a child’s right, not a parents, so parents cannot contract away a child’s right to support.” This is a great find and makes legal sense and should be easy to remember.

  • More on Child Support – another quote I found interesting. “the court will consider factors such as each parent's income, the number of children, and the percentage of time each parent spends with the children (also called “timeshare”). Courts will generally use a computer program that incorporates these factors to calculate child support.” Interestingly courts will calculate your own disposable income, not actually ask you for yours. They take your gross and minus taxes, union dues, health care premiums, and specific job related expenses. You want to max your 401k? Too bad you jizzed in someone’s cooch. If you try to shirk these duties by becoming unemployed or underemployed then the judge may “impute” income. This means they use the OTHER spouses calculations as 50% of the child’s money and you must pay the other half. This assumes that the court can prove there are jobs available for which the parent is qualified. The specific calculator is actually available online but deviations can be ordered by court. On the plus side if one parent makes an extraordinary amount of money then they may end up paying less than the calculated amount if that would be more than enough to support the child’s needs. However if the child requires specific medical attention that’s expensive the amount demanded by the courts can go up. Also specific low income provisions for one spouse can be made if their disposable income is less than $1000 per month. That shows the sad state that the California economy is in where a disposable income of $12,000 per year is considered poverty. (that’s more than the minimum wage nationally as of a couple years ago).

Some totally BS numbers from this calculator

https://www.cse.ca.gov/ChildSupport/cse/guidelineCalculator#

assuming one parent makes $100k and the other $30k, all other things being zero or equal then the higher earner would pay $668/mo for 50/50 custody of the children unless I’m reading the calculator wrong. There’s instructions available but I didn’t read those. Under the same situation if the lesser parent only had the kid 20% of the time then then the lesser parent pays the HIGHER EARNER $116/mo. If the situation is reversed and the lesser earning parent cares for the kid 80% of the time then they earn an extra $1184/mo. If you just walk away from the kid its an easy $1350/mo. (interestingly if both earn the same and custody is the same the calculator either glitches or is super mean and charges one spouse $63/mo for being “head of household” and getting an extra federal income tax exemption from 1 to 2 versus the other parent). For 2 kids using the same numbers you get $116/mo paid by lesser for 20% custody, $1102 paid by greater for 50/50 custody, $1931 paid by greater if the greater only had 20% custody and $2192 for the greater earner to walk away. That’s a lot, almost a mortgage payment added on every month for one kid and way way more than that if you get a pair of kids. It makes sense too because that’s the anecdotal stories I’ve heard from guys at work. Their worthless wife stole every dime they had.

That’s not a good look at marriage and prenups. Without Legal Paternal Surrender in place, the man is responsible for any kid he has, whether he wanted it or not or he was lied to or manipulated into it. That means even if he was lied to and was told she was on the pill, and that she’d get an abortion, and there was a prenup it could get thrown out and he’d owe her a house payment every month for kids I’m assuming he likely won’t get to see much. If he wants to forget everything about them and live a life that’s normal then he’s out more to walk away. So strange. Why do people feel forced into marriage?

[–]oldredder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

HAHAHa if you got married in a nation which doesn't protect your rights to assets, THEY ARE FUCKED. That's how it is. You're already held hostage.

I have received advice that if you marry in US and you sign a pre-nup it is very clear cut and prenup trumps all so you can protect all your assets.

Billion % wrong. Judges have gladly overturned those prenups time and time again with a complaint from the wife saying she was pressured / coerced into signing.

I have heard one and ONLY ONE tactic to defeat it: have the WOMAN draw up the wording of the prenup. Then if she goes to court saying she was coerced no one will believe she was coerced into WRITING the contract, then wants to invalidate it now. It's more than just signing it.

I have not studied law but the basic idea is that they take 50% and potential alimony and further payments to come.

Then it's time you got a lesson. You can be nailed in court for an income level that isn't even real - fiction 100% - because the judge says so.

[–]BruceJennerTesticles 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hi everyone, I've been reading these reddits for a while now

This seems rather unlikely. Or at least your "reading" has been very superficial.

I also wonder if there is a way to have your cake and eat it too?

Which means you are very naive (and in & due to that naivete, really not "MGTOW").

I have received advice that if you marry in US and you sign a pre-nup it is very clear cut and prenup trumps all so you can protect all your assets.

You were lied to, or at least massively mislead by someone who doesn't now their arse from a hole in the ground.

But hey, who knows -- maybe you WILL figure out a way to "have your cake and eat it too" AND you'll marry a woman who does likewise (like the one this other thread links to).