全 28 件のコメント

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 13ポイント14ポイント  (8子コメント)

This is why I lumped them together. The problem is these audit studies (say, comparing resumes that are the same except for the race of the applicant). They cannot tell us how easily the applicant can dodge discrimination. Sure, marginalized groups may be less likely to get interviews and jobs, but if they can still find those non-discriminatory jobs, they won’t have a discriminatory gap.

Is this what they're really trying to measure? I thought they were identifying the ATE of gender on likelihood on call backs and not making a claim about general equilibrium outcomes.

To use an extreme example, I may have 100 job offers, 99 will give me a discriminator gap and 1 does not. I will not actually suffer from discrimination.*

Yes but this would raise search costs which would then have an effect on equilibrium wages right?


I'm mostly nitpicking. It's a great post.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

Is this what they're really trying to measure? I thought they were identifying the ATE of gender on likelihood on call backs and not making a claim about general equilibrium outcomes.

Right. I think however, sometimes these studies are used on here like they are general equilibrium outcomes. I have no beef with doing audit studies. I just think we need to be clear as to what the identify.

Yes but this would raise search costs which would then have an effect on equilibrium wages right?

I think any of this "market prevents discrimination" stuff is rather reliant on there being no search costs. Maybe we can add a whole bunch of other frictions and get them to cancel with but I'm skeptical. I wanted to avoid search just because I think that jumping from discrimination + search frictions is a lot.

Also note how we're using realism of modeling assumptions here to attack this line of thought. We're not really making a reduced form attack here. There is nothing wrong with this, but it's something that this board doesn't really do.

I'm mostly nitpicking. It's a great post.

Thanks

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think audit studies are good to demonstrate that there exist discrimination and that this isn't merely the result of women having different preferences. Once you establish this you can move onto trying to recover an actual estimate of the GWG where these GE effects are more important. A lot of the reddit debates seem stuck at the first stage.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah definitely. My point there is once that you get audit studies, the question goes from "does discrimination exist?" to "how much does it matter?". I think it's not crazy to expect /r/badeconomics to move beyond this point. Out in the wild, we need to focus on establishing that discrimination is real.

Furthermore, redditors who claim market competition will eliminate discrimination are rarely conscience of the assumptions they are making. I personally think that any structural model with labor search is rather lacking if you are going to treat the model as "literally real" as they often do.

I think it's fair to guess my personal views about these wage gaps, since so many R1s I've written have been about them.

[–]HarlanStone16 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

So, this is old, I do not have a pdf (I have it as a book chapter), I have no idea of whether anyone has updated it or if it is really relevant anymore but...

at the time it was a good econometric attempt to control for a lot of stuff (including wage gaps caused by self selection of lower paying work) that could cause non-discriminatory wage gaps. It had a relatively well constructed measure of how much discrimination mattered.

I'm sure no one will read this, it takes me forever to remember to dig out old stuff if I think it is relevant.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Ah. Yes!

This looks interesting because you get very good quality controls. Actual college institution seems pretty good. Unfortunately, this isn't an exogenous (e.g. college institution isn't assigned at random, so we have self selection issues). This might work as a potential lower bound for the wage gap though.

For example, if a college institution admitted students in a sexism manner (say favoring boys) it needs to be included in the discriminatory gap. Of course, the college might discriminate in less explicit ways. Furthermore, if your end wages are less, you have less incentive to get these credentials.

[–]HarlanStone16 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I always found it interesting, because the result show that, for example, Asian heritage individuals actually experienced a wage gap, but that it was covered up by their selection of high paying degrees and jobs.

I would guess that, though discrimination might blind people to this fact, the wage gap between high school and college is large enough to overcome the wage gap caused by discrimination most time. But then again if you are a marginal college entrant, maybe that's not the case when you consider various opportunity costs.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I always found it interesting, because the result show that, for example, Asian heritage individuals actually experienced a wage gap, but that it was covered up by their selection of high paying degrees and jobs.

I actually only recently learned this! I had heard ancedotally about it, but didn't know it played out in the data.

I would guess that, though discrimination might blind people to this fact, the wage gap between high school and college is large enough to overcome the wage gap caused by discrimination most time. But then again if you are a marginal college entrant, maybe that's not the case when you consider various opportunity costs.

This might be true in a purely descriptive sense, but we need to remember that education isn't an exogenous variable. Returns on education are affected by discrimination as well. Also, doing this will hide and discrimination/unfairness/whatever you want to call it that occurs when people build human capital.

[–]HarlanStone16 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It definitely did play out in this older data. The other unexpected result (i.e. most other groupings were what narrative discussion suggests) was that Hispanic heritage men did basically as well as European heritage men, but their degree selections were biased towards lower pay.

On the second point, very true that the presence of even marginal discrimination can play out in a multiplier type way (anecdotally) along people's career arc from human capital attainment through retirement.

[–]0729370220937022Real economies have curves 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can tell this is a great post because it is about the GWG and there isn't a social justice slapfight in the comments.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks. I tried to be balanced by attacking an argument from both sides and not be divisive at all.

[–]besttrousers 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really nice RIs. Shame it's not getting more comments (I think it's because everyone is just nodding and thinking "Yep, this all checks out.").

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like this analysis a lot.

It's not really that hard, as it requires an understanding of basic econometrics and maybe intermediate micro (average vs. marginal). Plus understanding taste for discrimination. I wouldn't say any of that is "hard." However, you really have to understand and tie these together to get it.

[–]TychoTiberiusTexas Toast 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanke Mr. Monke.

This is amazing.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks.

I think this is my best R1.

[–]poltroon_pomegranate 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

To use an extreme example, I may have 100 job offers, 99 will give me a discriminator gap and 1 does not. I will not actually suffer from discrimination.*

*I don’t find this plausible. More accurately, I’d worry audit studies might overstate discrimination, by not factoring in marginalized groups ability to dodge discrimination.

This is interesting and I think to a certain extent true about wage discrimination.

However I think there is an additional challenge in determining if an offer has a discriminator gap. It is harder to gauge discrimination if you are looking at the whole market and not the firm itself. You may get an offer that seems nondiscriminatory based on your position and the market average for your position but compared to others in the firm the offer was discriminatory.

Basically I think it might be very hard to dodge discrimination becasue it may be difficult to determine if discrimination is taking place.


By discrimination I assume you mean specifically wage discrimination. In a general discrimination standpoint the existence of discriminatory firms have other effects.

In your example of discrimination dodging you had 99 discriminatory offers and one nondiscriminatory one (This is as you said an extreme example). If you assume that you can differentiate the two types of offers you are still given a more limited selection than a person who wouldn't receive discriminatory offers. The money you may gain from taking the nondiscriminatory might not be the deciding factor in your choice. If all positions you applied for where the same, the firms where the same and the locations where the same this might not be a problem but in reality things are more complicated.


Great post definitely thought provoking.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is interesting and I think to a certain extent true about wage discrimination.

However I think there is an additional challenge in determining if an offer has a discriminator gap. It is harder to gauge discrimination if you are looking at the whole market and not the firm itself. You may get an offer that seems nondiscriminatory based on your position and the market average for your position but compared to others in the firm the offer was discriminatory.

I certainly agree that labor market models without search frictions are not realistic. Milton Friedman thinks this isn't a problem, but I don't agree.

In your example of discrimination dodging you had 99 discriminatory offers and one nondiscriminatory one (This is as you said an extreme example). If you assume that you can differentiate the two types of offers you are still given a more limited selection than a person who wouldn't receive discriminatory offers. The money you may gain from taking the nondiscriminatory might not be the deciding factor in your choice. If all positions you applied for where the same, the firms where the same and the locations where the same this might not be a problem but in reality things are more complicated.

My example is absolutely reliant on a perfectly competitive labor market. Which again, isn't realistic. A more realistic question in my view isn't, do minority groups dodge discrimination, but how much do they dodge discrimination.

Avoiding things like subsidizing employer provided health insurance (which could increase search frictions, as people are hesitant to change healthcare insurers) could allow more discrimination, for instance.

[–]besttrousers 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Milton Friedman thinks this isn't a problem, but I don't agree.

I think it's important to note that this should be in the past tense. I'm not sure what Friedman would think now. Certainly the median economist views' on the labor market have changed substantially over the last few decades.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think it's important to note that this should be in the past tense. I'm not sure what Friedman would think now. Certainly the median economist views' on the labor market have changed substantially over the last few decades.

I was more going off of Milton Friedman's "realistic assumptions don't matter, predictive accuracy matters"

Of course, I think lots of things in the labor market are hard to square with perfect competition. So that's problematic even for poeple with his view.

Another reason, is I'm trying to avoid taking an overly political stance by declaring the GWG the result of dynamic monopsony. Better to underplay your hand then overplay it.

[–]besttrousers 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was more going off of Milton Friedman's "realistic assumptions don't matter, predictive accuracy matters"

Certainly! But I think that there's been demonstrations that models with search frictions have been able to make better predictions about labor markets. In addition to the well known CK and DLR minimum wage studies, I think Dube's RD paper is compelling http://ftp.iza.org/dp9149.pdf

We analyze how quits responded to arbitrary differences in own and peer wages using an unusual feature of a pay raise at a large U.S. retailer. The firm’s use of discrete pay steps created discontinuities in raises, where workers earning within 1 cent of each other received new wages that differed by 10 cents. First, we estimate a regression discontinuity (RD) model based on own wages; we find large causal effects of wages on quits, with quit elasticities less than -10. Next, we address whether the overall quit response reflects the impact of comparisons to market wages or to the wages of in-store peers. Here we use a multidimensional RD design that includes both a sharp RD in the own wage and a fuzzy RD in the average peer wage. We find that the large quit response mostly reflects relative-pay concerns and not market comparisons. After accounting for peer effects, quits do not appear to be very sensitive to wages – consistent with the presence of significant search frictions. Finally, we find that the relative-pay effect is nonlinear and driven mainly by workers who are paid less than their peers – suggesting concerns about fairness or disadvantageous inequity.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

However, all is not well for the labor search model. It doesn't do a good job of explaining labor market volatility in a recession, which is perhaps frustrating. It's still an open problem. When your model is worse than standard RBC at explaining labor market volatility (something the standard RBC model was thrashed for), then you are in trouble.

I think labor search as done a much better job at explaining micro labor market trends.

I am unfamiliar with the dube paper and will give it a read.

[–]besttrousers 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ooof, yeah.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It could be a side effect of the fact he's doing TFP shocks + making employment level dynamic (so you're less likely to fire a worker to avoid hiring costs in the future). But yeah, one would hope if search models were "more" realistic, they'd improve an RBC model, ceterius paribus.

[–]Randy_Newman1502Administration saves the nation 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

They [Audit Studies] cannot tell us how easily the applicant can dodge discrimination.

Whenever someone brings this up, the one study that always comes to mind is this mostly because of its unforgettable title.

As Ponderay said, this is really identifying the ATE of race on likelihood on call backs.

However, it does give some idea of what discriminated groups would have to do to avoid discrimination, no?

They have to put out twice the effort/applications to get the same callback rates.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've cited that very study on here. It's one of my favorites. I recall a discussion with you some. =P

I do think the fact that equal opportunity employer acted the same suggests that models where groups find non-discriminators easily aren't realistic. Milton wouldn't care (only predictive accuracy matters!) but I don't agree.

In particular, I think you could combine on the job search (and therefore monopsony), with some other margins and get a large distortionary wage gap. You'd confirm so many leftist priors it would be silly.

However, knowing that search frictions are greater and being able to quantify their effects are different. You'd still need to make some structural assumptions about the labor market, like search frictions for example.

That's not bad, but let's be explicit about them. It also doesn't mean they aren't realistic.

[–]Randy_Newman1502Administration saves the nation 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

equal opportunity employer acted the same suggests that models where groups find non-discriminators easily aren't realistic

I agree. That is an under appreciated point about this study.

However, knowing that search frictions are greater and being able to quantify their effects are different.

Isn't this what this study, and others of this type do? They show that search frictions are greater, and quantify them (half the callback rates). Therefore, we also have a rough idea of "how much harder" Lakisha and Jamal have to work to overcome those frictions than Emily and Greg(send out roughly twice as many applications), , at least in certain markets.

Of course, I am not commenting on the earnings differential aspects at all.

[–]mrregmonkeyAbortions Reduce Crime[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I meant quantifying earnings.

Also even quantifing search frictions is difficult because they only looked at newspaper job postings. This isn't the only source to find jobs to apply to. They mention how social networks are important sources for jobs as well.

I think that audit study is best as an example that discrimination DOES exist, so we can switch the conversation from "does discrimination exist?" to "how much does discrimination matter?"

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