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Check your fucking privilege (self.Anarchism)

nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist が 投稿 - announcement

This thread is a fucking travesty.

White people complaining that they don't like being made uncomfortable for their whiteness is a fucking farce. How do you think actually marginalized people feel every day of their lives?

Wanting to attract more fash-sympathetic (!!) white men to anarchism at the expense of women, people of color and LGBT people is utterly offensive. These brocialists want marginalized people to suffer in silence while white 'comrades' spout bigotry just so we can appeal to a broader audience. Fuck that.

Being poor is no excuse for being a piece of shit.

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[–]Stirned/ fake anarchist 102ポイント103ポイント  (50子コメント)

I didn't see any anarchists in that thread complaining that they don't like being made uncomfortable for their whiteness. What was being discussed was how pathetic the anarchist propaganda game has been in attracting poor white people, people with a historical interest in anarchism who are now going fash because their only exposure to the left is neoliberal identity politics. Fash-sympathetic white people (there's a lot of poor white women in this group as well) are exactly the kind of people you should be trying to attract to anarchism, not fucking liberals/conservatives who will ride out the status-quo until it totally collapses. This absolutely does not require abandoning antiracism and feminism. In practice this means being more accommodating (for a time) of newcomers who show interest in anarchism but may hold onto atavistic belief systems.

If your goal is anarchist revolution on a large scale, you will never accomplish anything if you require all participants be ideologically pure.

[–]emma-_______- oppressor of cis people 42ポイント43ポイント  (16子コメント)

Anarchist propaganda isn't particularly bad at attracting poor white people. The latest poll shows this sub is 80% white and 75% men. If anything, we have trouble attracting people who aren't white or male.

The problem isn't attracting white people, it's attracting people in general. It's very difficult overcoming all the capitalist propaganda in our society. People spend hours each day watching television, and a third of that time is spend selling them a message of consumerism. There's 24 hour news channels saying that the only options are two variations of capitalism. Older generations have been subjected to decades of anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War, and they've passed on much of that propaganda to the younger generations.

When capitalism starts failing and people go looking for answers, they're going up against all that. They can overcome a lifetime of propaganda telling them how great capitalism is, and look into socialism, anarchism, and communism. Or they can just make a scapegoat of minorities and foreigners, and blame all their problems on them instead, allowing them to maintain their capitalist ideology.

The first people being attracted to fascism are the ones with the strongest capitalist indoctrination, and the ones with the most bigotry. They also feel like they've already found the answer to their problems, so they're not looking for another one. They're usually the hardest people to convince to become anarchists. You're better off not trying to accommodate them. Instead be more accommodating to the majority of the proletariat (those who aren't white men) by keeping out bigots.

[–]mypersonnalreader 19ポイント20ポイント  (8子コメント)

The latest poll shows this sub is 80% white and 75% men

This has more to do with the demographics of reddit than anarchism, really.

[–]FreddyBananas 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I wouldn't be surprised if that were disproportionately less white and male when compared to reddit as a whole tbh

[–]JoeFalchetto 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Reddit is about 50/50 on gender and 70% white (pretty much in line with the demographics of the countries who use it the most).

[–]SJW_as_FUCKhang fascist scum 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

i have a hard time believing this, where are you getting these numbers?

edit: I looked it up, here are some numbers http://www.journalism.org/2016/02/25/reddit-news-users-more-likely-to-be-male-young-and-digital-in-their-news-preferences/

about 70% white and 67% male

[–]poorpeopleRtheworst 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Got a source for this claim?

[–]JoeFalchetto 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here 53/47 for men/women.

Cannot find on race, I remember reading it somewhere. Might be wrong.

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    [–]viva1831 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Anarchist propaganda isn't particularly bad at attracting poor white people. The latest poll shows this sub is 80% white and 75% men.

    And how many of them are poor and can't get out of it? I think THAT was the point....

    [–]zuwe 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Anarchist propaganda isn't particularly bad at attracting poor white people.

    I gotta laugh at this. Most working class white people I know hate the shit out of leftists. Most of the people on this sub are, I'm guessing, college educated/middle class types. Most anarchists I've met in my life aren't exactly the salt of the earth.

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      [–]cyanoside 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

      if people don't understand that one person's liberation is inseparable from everyone else liberation then I don't know what to say. If one person is targeted for a piece of there identity, then that means anyone can be targeted for any piece of their identity and thus no one is really safe when that kid of ideology rules.

      It's not about who gets liberated first, it's about being liberated together.

      [–]id-entity 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Id-entity says: liberation FROM rigid identities can be very liberating.

      [–]circle-a-throwaway 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Suffering is not a zero-sum game. Intersectionality is important, and while some commie bros do over play the importance of poverty, I think big chunks of folks who are into identity politics also underplay it.

      [–]Trololler 22ポイント23ポイント  (10子コメント)

      The fact that this keeps having to be said...this sub is making me want to rage quit.

      INTERSECTIONALITY!!! Poor white people are subject to the discrimination of poverty (aka "white trash") but not the racism that a well to do black person does. By the same token a rich black guy has the advantage of being both rich and a man, and if he gets pulled over he would have more power to fight the law than a poor white person. yeah, his wealth goes a long way to mitigate the racism he faces (since money=power) but he is still a black man.

      Nobody ever tells a poor white person that they are privileged, we simply say that being white is an advantage. Not quite as much as wealth, power, or being male, but still an advantage none the less. When poor white people say they are just as oppressed as the poor black people, I can't let that go unchallenged, especially considering the implications. The nature of the world we live in (at least in the US) gives white males an advantage.

      [–]tetrapyloctomy 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I agree. The quantification of suffering in these posts is strong, and absurd. It's like no one ever actually stops to think that maybe these categories aren't so neatly defined as they seem.

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        [–]Investigate--311 38ポイント39ポイント  (10子コメント)

        Hmm, I think this gentleman would be quite surprised to learn that the majority of the working class is women and people of color.

        [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

        That's a very good point. Women and minorities make far less money than white men.

        [–]id-entity 14ポイント15ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Toilet cleaner, doing honest and beneficial work, gets far less purchasing power than a bankster who creates more debt with couple keystrokes.

        [–]Drunk_King_Robert 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Bankers may as well be bourgeoisie

        [–]Vozrozhdeniye 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        What does that even mean?

        [–]Drunk_King_Robert 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        When I talk about the working class, I do not mean bankers. They are the equivalent of a cancer.

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            [–]wQP5qtqHqHYXZ6Vha9BE 24ポイント25ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I think the point is more complex than you're making it out to be. Let's call "opposing oppression" A and we'll call "opposing identity-based discrimination" B. If genuine anarchists are AB and manarchists are A, then liberal identity politics is B.

            The post is not a recommendation to switch from B to A. It's an admission that B is already out in the public and has been fighting a losing battle for several years.

            [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I think what the OP is saying is 'let's be nicer to fascists'. It's really not that complex.

            Have you ever wondered why fascism is rising? It's because it's a fundamentally reactionary, anti-left movement. And do you wonder why the anti-left movement is growing? Because we aren't doing enough to acknowledge the problems of the very unprivileged white, straight males. Nationalists say "I see your problem, I will help!" So then they support them, and all they see are leftists talking about bashing their skulls against the concrete. They get pushed further right.

            Summarized: White men become fascists. Leftists talk about bashing in their skulls for being fascists. They get even more fascist... Oh no!!

            [–]tetrapyloctomy 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Sure, take the most uncharitable possible interpretation because you like being hostile. Or just read what he's actually saying:

            White men who feel disempowered eventually come to a choice, and they choose what makes them feel empowered. Fascism makes them feel empowered, but only anarchism will make them really empowered. Anarchism should communicate that better, because too many people are making the wrong choice.

            [–]hipstergarrus 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

            I think too many people here underestimate the challenge of convincing fascists to become anarchists, even poor whites. Most of them are so deep in ideology that it would take a massive effort to pull them out. Most poor, "fascist-sympathetic" whites live in communities that support and feed into those ideas. I once spoke with a transwoman who claimed she was willing to live in the closet for the rest of her life and risk genocide against herself and other queer people if it meant securing a white nationalist state. That is a belief born from a lot of different places. You can't just tell poor whites that anarchism also addresses their oppression and expect that to even begin to start them on a path towards anarchism.

            For what it's worth I don't think we should give up on poor white people. But such a drastic shift from fascism to anarchism requires a lot of effort from both parties involved and it will rarely happen quickly. We should not be sacrificing the liberation and well-being of minorities for shady notions of “pragmatism” and “mass appeal.”

            [–]arjun1967 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

            On a related note, let's not make the mistake of assuming that poor and working class whites are some kind of monolithic bloc. I.e. if you look at recent data from the US primaries, Trump voters were largely more economically well off than the average white voter. Or check out this recent polemic in Guardian about how the liberal media has painted a false generalization of Trump voters as largely stemming from the white working class.

            In reality, it seems that modern US fascism is rooted in the middle class, among older and wealthier white people who live in isolated and racially homogeneous communities.

            [–]hipstergarrus 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

            True. I think I was perhaps too sweeping in my generalizations of working-class white people. I think a demographic's history has just as much influence on their political beliefs as their class. Poor whites in Alabama have been inundated with racist ideology for generations. That way of thinking takes a very long time to die off, as older members of a community pass their beliefs on to the younger generation. Whereas a poor white person living in Queens or the Bronx is much more likely to feel solidarity with working-class minorities. (Not saying racism is dead in the north, just less openly hostile.)

            I have seen the statistics before about Trump being favored by the wealthy and middle class and I don't dispute them. It doesn't change the fact that there is a significant number of working class people who support him as well. The scapegoating of "the other" is potent propaganda, especially in homogenous regions. This is why I can support more sympathetic approaches to fascists of the working class, but not if it dismisses social hierarchies to gain more support against capitalism and the state.

            In the linked thread and this one there have been suggestions that as long as we focus on class oppression, other oppressive social systems will fall away. I don't buy that. In my opinion, the way to engage indoctrinated white people, is to focus more on intersectionality. Convincing people that oppression is complex and affects different people and demographics in different ways is a big step in building healthy solidarity. Overly simplistic models of oppression either disenfranchise those who don't fit nicely into a category, or are too general and fail to properly identify the source of the oppression.

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              [–]zuwe 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I think people in general tend to believe things that they can see and experience rather than abstract ideas. White nationalism, from a certain perspective rooted in our cultural history, makes perfect sense to a lot of poor white people. The state already exists, they see it working, and they've been convinced they know where the problem with it is. White supremacy is a lot of things, abstract it isn't. In fact it's the simplest thing on Earth for most people to understand.

              That's where the left fails, and it's one reason America's white working class has taken a turn for the fascistic. Because the left does two things: it ridicules and it theorizes. Rarely does it speak to people on their own level or create something positive that people can see and take part in themselves.

              That doesn't mean the left needs to start accommodating racism, but it does need to make an effort to understand it and realize where it's coming from.

              [–]Adamwesterman 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Hi, i don't want toi sound like a complete dunce here, but what is meant by "checking privilege" exactly? Sorry, i am familiar with the anarchist world view as put forth by the anarchist FAQ, and a few older texts, (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin etc) but i'm unfamiliar with this expression. Can someone please enlighten me?

              [–]mellowcrake 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It's a term used to encourage people to think about how belonging to certain privileged groups within society might benefit them in ways that they wouldn't normally consider. It's obvious to most people here how belonging to the upper class can give people advantages in life over those born in poverty, which is class privilege. But there is also privilege to be had by being white, male, straight, free of mental illness and other disabilities, etc. "Check your privilege" is basically a reminder to people to reflect on ways their belonging to these dominant groups might give them an advantage over others whose particular kind of struggle they might not be aware of.

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                [–]ThumblesteenTaking the 'mean' out of 'means of production.' 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I think it's important to remember that rhetoric and opinion rarely correlate 100%. Learning to speak the language of the common people whose interests we defend, might require some compromises.

                Not to mention that, technically speaking, telling someone to "check their privilege" has to be founded in some level of prejudice. I'm Romani, but I look white, so when people ask me to "check my privilege", that's kind of racist. They look at my skin colour and make assumptions about me. Assumptions that usually further undermines my ethnic identity, which has already been crushed by centuries of slavery, bigotry and holocausts.

                [–]id-entity 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

                Listening carefully, I hear that your basic argument goes like this: "I'm feeling miserable, and therefore I want to make others feel miserable too", based on exclusive racial, sexual etc. top down cultural categories.

                As far as we recognize that society is primarily an emotional space, I don't see spreading feeling miserable, nurturing victimhood etc. as a winning tactic for anarchist agit prop. Let the liberals own that.

                [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                You're not listening carefully enough.

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                  [–]Katzenscheisse 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  This is not about about accomondating fascists its about better propaganda. Do you start of with "lets kill cops" when you explaain to someone anarchism or "we love freedom and want to create a free society". On the same end you dont start of explaining to a poor white worker that hes priveleged you start by telling him that anarchism will free him from soul destroying work and hopeless poverty. Thats all.

                  You may disagree with the scale of the problem but many here are just so hostile to any criticism that they misread everything.

                  [–]narbgarbler 24ポイント25ポイント  (21子コメント)

                  Re-read the thread you flaming arsehole. It's about pillocks like you driving poor white men towards fascism, not appealing to fascist sentiments.

                  [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  It's about pillocks like you driving poor white men towards fascism, not appealing to fascist sentiments.

                  Except that that very premise is baseless and was not persuasively argued in thread, just a lazy assumption that people went along with because of their own biases.

                  Anarchists are NOT turning white cis dudes into fascists (in the states at least, I can't comment internationally) we are far, FAR too insignificant to have that sort of power.

                  [–]complete_pleb 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  Anarchists are NOT turning white cis dudes into fascists

                  "Privilege theory" is an exclusively anarchist construction? Have you told all the liberals on SRS of this? I think they might be surprised.

                  [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  Whatever, it's not like privilege theory is turning cis white dudes into fascists either.

                  It's a concerted effort by fascists turning cis white dudes into fascists.

                  [–]complete_pleb 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  Okay, if "Privilege theory" is not driving "cis white dudes" into the arms of the far-right, can you offer an alternate explanation as to why fash, in their own little hidey hole, are saying it is and that they are desperate to see "Privilege theory" further perpetuated?

                  [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  wut?

                  The funny part is all the bros characterizing privilege theory as a bunch of evil minorities pointing and laughing at a white homeless guy on the street.... when in fact most of it is pretty fucking reasonable, and the scenario I mentioned is a caricature that never actually happens.

                  [–]Hyalinemembrane 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Damnit... it definitely isn't privilege theory that's driving the rise of fascism. It's the liberal political game.

                  Also I feel like this argument is pointless. We can call out white people who really are privileged and try to empathize with those who aren't.

                  Privelege theory isn't the problem.

                  [–]FreddyBananas 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Why in the world would you turn to people as dumb and uninsightful as internet fascists for the psychological motivations of fascists?

                  [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  So I guess your downvotes suggest r/@ thinks anarchists are responsible for fascism.

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                    [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

                    Except it's not. It's specifically said by OP that they want to bring existing fascists to anarchism.

                    Have you ever wondered why fascism is rising? It's because it's a fundamentally reactionary, anti-left movement. And do you wonder why the anti-left movement is growing? Because we aren't doing enough to acknowledge the problems of the very unprivileged white, straight males. Nationalists say "I see your problem, I will help!" So then they support them, and all they see are leftists talking about bashing their skulls against the concrete. They get pushed further right.

                    [–]id-entity 17ポイント18ポイント  (9子コメント)

                    Ideological work means exactly that. Convincing people that anti-authoritarian anarchy is better for all of us than authoritarian fascism.

                    [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    ...By coddling them and not pointing out their bigotries?

                    [–]id-entity 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    By studying and understanding the basics of human psychological mechanisms. And then, acting and feeling accordingly.

                    The study starts from introspective observation of one's own emotional states and how they interact with larger contexts.

                    [–]SirSquishybottom 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    No. That takes work and effort. Just dehumanize and ostracize them until they kill themselves.

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                      [–]anansi73 18ポイント19ポイント  (22子コメント)

                      It's funny that all of the people here making the argument that we need to make anarchism more attractive to white people by being more accommodating to their backwards-ass views don't make the argument that we need to make anarchism more attractive to POC by accommodating them by making our spaces less oppressive for them. You are all racist. Point blank. Period. You choose to accommodate white people at the expense of POC and you cloak it in bullshit arguments about having a "broad appeal." Choosing white racists over POC is not giving anarchism a broad appeal. It is quite literally narrowing the appeal of anarchism to only white people.

                      [–]currentTissues 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

                      Yes! This is exactly my sentiment too. Anarchist scenes are rarely inclusionary as they favor white western culture. From the punk rock music to the cliched clothing to the discriminatory attitude. As an immigrant in my 30s, it's been difficult to fit in to many anarchist groups. I've been told "you don't look like an anarchist" so many times. What exactly is an anarchist supposed to look like? I've also heard several observations about my age.

                      Anarchism already panders to mostly young white American men. Coming from outside of this group, it's incredibly obvious and discouraging.

                      [–]DragQueen_Eclipse 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      "you don't look like an anarchist" so many times. What exactly is an anarchist supposed to look like? I've also heard several observations about my age.

                      This 100%!

                      As an Effeminate Male Bodied-Gay-BiGendered Mixed-Race person, I do not get taken seriously

                      [–]AserwarthAnarcho-TRANShumanist 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      Also I do not get taken seriously as a women, add being a trans women, when I talk about politics. I know this because when people read me as a white man they would listen but now that they don't they, talk over me. It is so fucking frustrating.

                      [–]DragQueen_Eclipse 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Yaaas! I can empathize and sympathize with you!

                      How about your family? cause my family doesn't

                      [–]AserwarthAnarcho-TRANShumanist 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Doesn't approve? My mom is okay with it but she has memory problems and does not gender my correctly and then gets mad if I correct her too much. My dad thinks I am an abomination even if he doesn't say it out right he gives me that hollow I still love you but... sort of thing.

                      [–]DragQueen_Eclipse 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Sadly I (and many others) know this situation personally

                      [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      It really depends on the group. I've never really looked like an anarchist either. I like punk music, but I never dressed the part or got into the scene. And now that I'm in my 30's as well, there definitely are groups I don't feel at home in, especially at first. And a lot of groups are indeed predominantly young white guys. Other groups aren't though. Like, the radical mental health group I was in was predominantly women and had a lot of ethnic diversity, and the prison abolition groups are really diverse as well.

                      So, just chiming in to say I relate with your frustration, but that I've been lucky enough to find some groups that break that paradigm.

                      [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                      [removed]

                        [–]currentTissues 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        It's actually disturbing how many hegemony apologists there are in this sub.

                        [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I think you meant to click r/reactionary

                        [–]anansi73 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Fuck you.

                        [–]841067 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

                        You are all racist. Point blank. Period. You choose to accommodate white people at the expense of POC and you cloak it in bullshit arguments about having a "broad appeal." Choosing white racists over POC is not giving anarchism a broad appeal. It is quite literally narrowing the appeal of anarchism to only white people.

                        Fucking exactly. This fucking sub is flooded with racist scum judging by the vote counts/comments in this thread.

                        [–]anansi73 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                        And the thing is, on the outwardly conservative subs, the users will generally own up to their racism/race realism/whatever. Here, the cowards try to cloak it in theory and obfuscation. When called out for racist shit they claim that they are being misunderstood and that the situation is "complex." It's all bullshit.

                        [–]Faolinbeankilljoy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Thank youuuuuu

                        [–]tetrapyloctomy -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        Maybe we genuinely don't understand? I genuinely don't understand why more white men in anarchism means a net loss for POC and women. I'd be happy to be educated, but the rage here is difficult to navigate. Is it a zero-sum game? How? I certainly don't want more crypto fascists in anarchist groups, but isn't the point that our appeal to poor white men should preclude their fascist impulses, since the appearance of power in fascism is actually bullshit?

                        [–]AserwarthAnarcho-TRANShumanist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        First off I am a trans women (not a person of color), and I take your opening statement at face value and assume you do not get it. Basically it is not a zero sum game. It is actually the opposite. The mantra you should take from this discussion. Is don't be shit, and accept when you accidentally be shit and people call you out on it.

                        The problem with being accommodating to "white, cis, het, men" isn't that they are white, cis, het, or men. It is that society at large grants them privileges and some of them (more like a lot of them) cannot look past that and see that it is harder for those that do not have those privileges. That even in the same shit situation that they will be better off even if it still shit just less shit.

                        Now in regards to anarchist spaces, if there are more white, cis, het, men if they were to come to this space and not recognize what societal privileges they have they may make this space into the same power dynamic as the society at large. That is it really.

                        [–]841067 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Couldn't agree with your analysis more. 💖

                        [–]obeibikittenz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Yep! Also sad to see POC internalizing the racism and buying into the "make it more attractive to racist white people" mentality. I think white-passing/lightskinned/part-white POC can easily fall into this trap [speaking as lightskinned/whitepassing latinx whose mother doesnt have the luxury of passing, Ive noticed this tendency in the latinx community sadly]

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                          [–]alsdm1 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Ignoring privilege is folly; however it seems the onus should be on the left to make it clear to this cishet white man in poverty that fascism isn't the answer. It's not that we need to stop discussing privilege, we need to reeducate this type of person to understand that siding with the fash in this instance is harmful to them on the basis of class. That doesn't mean we ignore white privilege. We should never ignore white privilege. It is the job of those of us on the left, though, to frame the discussion better without ignoring the fact that white privilege is a huge factor in class structure today.

                          [–]Iagos_Shadow 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          Downvoted that thread and was really disappointed where I was reading it. Anarchism seeks to abolish ALL forms of hierarchy. Privilege is on the list alongside capitalism and patriarchy. We're going to destroy ALL of it. Don't ever forget that.

                          [–]tupadre97 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          anarchy is against all forms of hierarchy but we dont claim to be able to decide which form of hierarchy is more important to be eliminated first. different forms of hierarchy are more important to get rid of for certain ppl than others. but you brocialists seem to think that class hierarchy is the most important and that everyone else should just fall in line to whatever you're doing before they solve their own problems. that's not real anarchy thats vanguardism.

                          [–]Drunk_King_Robert 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          I said to never forget that multiple times.

                          [–]12HectaresOfAcidbecause otherwise they'd change really frequently 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          you may as well have forgot it. I mean, you're trying to attract people who only care, at best, about class and want to ignore all other attitudes.

                          [–]HermanissoxxxLabels won't hold me down. 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          No, attract people who are still unaware of everyday oppression experienced by the marginalized.

                          For example, 'cis-white-scum' -Joe the plumber, has been told his whole life to, "pick yourself up by the bootstraps, work hard and you'll be a success because you live in the best country in the world." He's been told that blacks are lazy and violent, that's why they're poor and if they'd only work as hard as he does, they'd fix their problems. Joe never really had a chance to develop his critical thinking skills. From an early age, he was disciplined into obeying and shamed into conforming. Most kids experience a very rigid socialization. He has not experienced your struggles and has been misinformed that those problems are self-inflicted. He can't help but to think, "I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing and I'm still getting fucked. These people think I have it good? Fuck them."

                          Finding common ground with them is probably the only way to win sympathy and open them up to intersectionality. The only thing you have in common with them is species and class. And the lines have been blurred so badly by propaganda, we have a black president, gay military, female CEOs and trans-television shows. There's this image that we're past racism, sexism, etc. Even marginalized people are under this impression.

                          Look at it this way, Joe the plumber stands to gain by helping us. Obama, Oprah, Beyoncé and Ellen stand to lose their privilege and power, yet they're the ones pushing IP. Seems like IP won't jeopardize their power.

                          [–]obeibikittenz 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          STOP

                          USING

                          ADDITIVE

                          MODELS

                          OF

                          OPPRESSION

                          ACTUALLY READ UP ON INTERSECTIONALITY AND ITS FOUNDING FEMInIST THEORISTS YALL. NO ONE IS SAYING WORKING CLASS WHITE MEN ARE """PRIVELEGED"""

                          [–]zzuum 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Wanting to attract more fash-sympathetic (!!) white men to anarchism

                          That is actually a good point. The reason that they are drawn to that in the first place is because they are willing to accept such a shitty idea. Not sure if we want to associate with them. However, exposing them to anarchism will at least leave them with the idea for down the road when they maybe change. Maybe.

                          [–]tetrapyloctomy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Ideology isn't predestined though. These people are making (bad) choices, and we could try to intervene before that happens.

                          [–]buttmunchnbutterflys 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          (edit: I made a mistake, u/nowaydaddioh is not a mod on r/Anarchism. I am not actually banned.)

                          This is not a good use of your mod privilege (speaking of it). I agree that the thread and some of the most upvoted comments are frustrating, but don't sticky post your retort just because you can.

                          [–]Misiame 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Ah man, all the white male anarchist tears downvoting all over the thread and upvoting liberals. So salty!

                          [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I know, it's so funny that someone stickied this. Otherwise it would have been buried with downvotes instantly.

                          [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 9ポイント10ポイント  (13子コメント)

                          Reddit "anarchists" are the worst, reddit marxists look better in comparison, lol.

                          EDIT: LOL@The reports:

                          user reports:

                          1: tankie

                          Nope, I'm an anarchist, I just think reddit anarchists suck at making functioning subreddits due to reasons such as 1) We have hangups when it comes to any sort of hierarchy, so view mods as an inherently invalid institution, but more importantly 2) We're not willing to call out shitty people having shitty "debates" which shouldn't even be debated, too willing to "hear out" shitty people's thoughts, and treat all ideas as equal when they are NOT equal.

                          Both of these factors put together in a toxic environment like Reddit makes /r/@ weak in the face of the constant reddit bro onslaught, and makes it nothing like IRL anarchist communities, which tend to be fairly awesome.

                          1: You're the fucking worst. Seriously demod yourself.

                          Nah

                          [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

                          yeah, the response to that thread on r/shitliberalssay was so different than here.

                          [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 9ポイント10ポイント  (11子コメント)

                          Yeah... modding lsc compared to here is like night and day, I'm now convinced /r/@ is a joke and the only reason I still care about it is to prevent it from becoming a total brocialist shithole.

                          reddit anarchists are so hung up about hierarchy on reddit that they enable the worst kind of brocialists to derail their shit, they even have a special sub called metanarchism where marginalized folks are routinely made to justify their feelings and get gaslit, meanwhile places like LSC enforce something above and beyond the AOP without issue (did you know we mod words like "crazy"?), and that sub has WAY more invasions from/r/all than this place.

                          EDIT: LOL@the reports:

                          user reports:

                          1: sexist

                          1: waaaa the brocialists are coming to get me. get a life loser

                          [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          I'm really glad you're not still in met@ to see the racist shitshow that just unfolded there.

                          I think it's time for me to start frequenting LSC.

                          [–]Faolinbeankilljoy 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          I wish there was an /r/AnarchismWithoutLiberals :(

                          [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I really wish you were a mod here. We need less fence-sitters trying to appease the anlib sect.

                          [–]841067 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          You're not the only one, don't worry.

                          [–]Jeep-Eepanti-technophile 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I been meaning to spin off a replacement for r/soc from LSC; I might do one for the anarchists while I'm at it.

                          [–]Trololler 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I'm now convinced /r/@ is a joke and the only reason I still care about it is to prevent it from becoming a total brocialist shithole.

                          This is kinda my feeling right now. I love r/@ but I just end up getting angry when I delve into the comments too much. It probably has do with the fact that THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ANARCHISM! I don't want to come to THIS sub expecting to see ignorant shit, but for my own mental health I may have to.

                          [–]anansi73 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          LSC? maybe I should migrate.

                          [–]FreddyBananas 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Tbh tankies are just a different flavor of the same bullshit. Do they got the rape apologist trots over at lsc too?

                          [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I don't think so, but yeah /r/socialism is also pretty shitty, probably moreso than /r/@.

                          [–]LiberaAnarkiisma| individualist | atheist | feminist | free software/culture 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Why are you being downvoted?

                          [–]milkyphonemes 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          The Thread isn't talking about attracting fash-sympathetic people, it's talking about attracting people on the precipice.

                          "some poor bloke working night shift, living in abject poverty ... already suffering from capitalism's alienation"

                          He also isn't saying that intersectionality in itself is invalid - he is only saying that if anarchism wants to have any hope of succeeding as a political system, that the emphasis must be on class struggle as opposed to racial / gender / sexuality struggle, on which we can educate and enlighten people who are sympathetic to our cause.

                          No one is saying White privilege isn't a thing - but i equally don't think we should ostracise people just because they don't know about intersectionality and feel that they are suffering too - not everyone is educated about these issues and we should be open and gentle in educating people on the topic - not aggressive or vindictive (save that for the actual fascists...)

                          Just because one group is suffering more than another, it doesn't invalidate the suffering of the first.

                          """who are you to complain about your statist government when there are kids starving in africa ?? ? """

                          not everyone is perfectly knowledgable on the things we anarchists care about, if we want to turn people around to our cause - we have to be welcoming, not confrontational (unless truly necessary)

                          [–]Drunk_King_Robert 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Yes, as a bi man, my main goal was indeed to bring in people hostile to the LGBT community. You caught me, it's because I secretly hate myself.

                          [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

                          [removed]

                            [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall[M] 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Oh stfu.

                            Comment removed for biphobia

                            [–]HeloRising 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Brocialists/manarchists rising.

                            [–]anansi73 8ポイント9ポイント  (9子コメント)

                            Anyone ever notice how the biggest detractors of privilege and intersectionality theory are cis-straight, white men? Hmm . . .

                            [–]FreddyBananas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            I don't even think that's true.

                            Unless you're talking about class reductionist types

                            [–]Drunk_King_Robert 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            I'm not straight tho

                            [–]Daftmarzotrannypunk.com/TSPX/detransition.html 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            mostly, but not true.

                            transsexual woman here

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                              [–]Commujism 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

                              I think there should be a distinction between Tumblr politics and anarchism.

                              Racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism, ect, ect, ect, all exist, but not in the universalist ways liberals tend to explain them. Some have proposed intersectionality theory as an amendment to the problems that arise with this universalism, but this is not totally adequate either as it just replaces one representative reality with many (in the same inadequate way the plural authoritarianism of democracy has replaced the singular authoritarianism of the monarchy).

                              We must begin to understand being oppressed as a distinct, individualized experience, rather than a monolithic one.

                              [–]mypersonnalreader 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              Tumblr politics

                              How is this a thing? There are all kinds of people on Tumblr: from hardcore communists to neo-nazis.

                              Only neo-reactionnaries think "Tumblerinas" are a thing.

                              [–]FreddyBananas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              I think Tumblr can be meaningfully generalized, same as reddit. It has a certain style that it favors, and it privileges those with lots of social capital.

                              Of course there are some cool people on it tho.

                              [–]12HectaresOfAcidbecause otherwise they'd change really frequently 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Only neo-reactionnaries think "Tumblerinas" are a thing.

                              exactly.

                              [–]FreddyBananas 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              Could you elaborate?

                              [–]Commujism -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              Im saying that while class/identity-based organizing can be useful in creating coalitions of exploited individuals, when that class/identity begins to take on a representative/managerial function, it becomes authoritarian.

                              For example, when someone claims to speak on behalf of the "trans community" or "women" or "the workers of the world" or "people of color", they are in fact engaging in the same type of subjugating politics as the career politician who claims to represent "the people". The desires of those individuals who make up an oppressed group are always too conflicting to be consolidated neatly into a single essence.

                              [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              We must begin to understand being oppressed as a distinct, individualized experience, rather than a monolithic one.

                              Well said. Mass scaled solutions or understandings are always lazy and unproductive for individuals.

                              [–]id-entity 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              Why is Tumblr so closely associated with the cartoon SJW meme?

                              [–]whwhwhwhatoy 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              It's related to the general rise of online alt-right which started a few years back, when a bunch of "X In Actions" subs spread across reddit. They were mostly dedicated to ridiculing feminists, transgender people, and other social justice advocates (cuz fuck people trying to make a positive change against discrimination, you know) and one of the ways they accomplished this was by nitpicking out-of-context posts made on obscure Tumblr blogs and taking jokes popular at the time like "kill all white/cis people" and "male tears" way too serioulsy. Since then, "go back to Tumblr, sjw" was kind of a coup de grace any time the white, male, middle class reddit demographic had their bigotry challenged and the idea of Tumblr as a hive of evil, misandrist SJWs stuck.

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                                [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 8ポイント9ポイント  (52子コメント)

                                Hey y'all

                                Isn't it funny how folks in this thread are denouncing intersectional privilege theory as "liberal identity politics", or "universalist ways liberals tend to...", or generally trying to paint the concept with a liberal colored brush?

                                When in-fact, probably way more self-identifying liberals would reject intersectional privilege theory than your average rad-left person. You might even call rejecting intersectional privilege theory a liberal trait!

                                :-O :-O :-O !!!!

                                Like damn, wouldn't the world be a better place if liberals actually did embrace intersectional privilege theory? (which includes class, you willfully ignorant manarchist/brocialist scum). But in reality they don't actually give a fuck about marginalized people, lol.... and they certainly don't give a fuck about poor white guys or have any decent analysis of class!

                                Meanwhile, folks with marginalized identities who subscribe to intersectionality are treated like we practically get off on talking down to poor white dudes... as if "white dudes" in general don't marginalize poor & homeless white dudes themselves!

                                Gotta tell'ya most people I see talking shit about homeless guys or telling poor people to "get a job" are white guys, sorry if the truth hurts.

                                Oh how tortured are our words and labels!

                                EDIT: Removed an ableist word

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 3ポイント4ポイント  (46子コメント)

                                "you stupids"

                                So, it is ok to call people we disagree with "stupid" around here now, or is it just ok for you and people you like to do it? Just asking so I know for future reference.

                                [–]FreddyBananas 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                I've always thought lists of ableist words were silly, but you've done a lot of radical mental health stuff.

                                So is this you being petty or do you think this genuinely causes harm? What is the criteria for determining an ableist word?

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                Well, I sure wouldn't use the word at a radical mental health meeting, that's for sure.

                                Personally I'm not bothered by ableist language myself (though I respect those who are and try to take them into account when posting in spaces like this), I'm just bothered by Enkara's hypocrisy.

                                [–]vikingsquad 0ポイント1ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                You have to break out your abacus and factor up your points from the oppression olympics. I, for example, am a cis queer guy so I don't know that my queerness racks me up enough good boy points to be able to call people "stupid," which is, as you rightly point out, an ableist slur.

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean -1ポイント0ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                Yeah, I just don't understand how most of the mod team and such a large number of users in the sub are totally fine with (or at least silent about) the hypocrisy and inability by some mods to handle dissent.

                                It is pathetic really.

                                [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                Dissent could mean a lot of things. Can you be more specific? What dissent exactly?

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                Let's do it multiple choice. You give me four definitions of dissent and I'll choose one. Oh, give me an "e) none of the above" too though please.

                                [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                I'm not asking for definitions; I'm asking for examples of dissent that our mods are unable to tolerate.

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                The posts in particular from tonight that I have in mind have already been removed and the user banned, otherwise I'd link to them.

                                Not taking the time to do screenshots since you and I are obviously never going to be on the same page for anything ever, so it would be a waste of time.

                                Now stop being annoying and disagreeing with me or the new and improved EnkaraHamJam will have to ban you for being annoying./s

                                [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                If the banned person is who I think it is; they're just a Maoist troll that followed me to this thread from r/shitliberalssay. They don't post here.

                                [–]WhoWouldHaveThunk1 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                Folks against identity and privilege politics (like, legitimately, not the dumb dumbs in this thread).

                                Nuance is another one.

                                Disagreeing with the mod process can get you banned.

                                The list goes on.

                                [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                not the dumb dumbs in this thread

                                MOTHERFUCKER! ONLY ENKARA CAN TALK LIKE THAT!!!!

                                [–]WhoWouldHaveThunk1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                BATHE IN A BATH OF ACID YOU SCUMFUCK WHITE STRAIGHT CIS MALE LIIIBBBEERRRRAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!111

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                                    [–]complete_pleb 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Have you looked at the Italian origin of the word "travesty"?

                                    [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                    Saying 'a lot of people are being stupid' isn't the same as singling out a particular user and calling them stupid.

                                    [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    I've found conversing with that person to be completely fruitless, you may do as you wish, though.

                                    [–]hamjam5Nietzschean 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Is that the party line on this? Cool, I'll keep that in mind.

                                    Don't complain when I act in accordance with the example that has been set and accepted.

                                    I'm learning a lot today about how this sub works. You can call a group of people on a thread that you disagree with stupid, you can encourage suicide, you can tell people that their skulls should get cracked, you can ban people for being "annoying" without transparency, you can undo bans that other mods do without telling anyone or being accountable for the act.

                                    Honestly, I think yall have been right about me. I have been stickling to the rules and standards the community has agreed upon way too much. I think it will be a lot more fun to follow the example of the more established mods that I have been critical of.

                                    edit: want to make sure I save your words for posterity just so I can be sure to have the protocol down pat:

                                    Saying 'a lot of people are being stupid' isn't the same as singling out a particular user and calling them stupid.

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                                          [–]fartingxfarts 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          I think straight up rejection of "privilege theory" doesn't make a lot of sense tbh cuz anarchism is supposed to be about understanding and exposing social hierarchies reinforcing capitalism and that means "privilege" is gonna inevitably be something you confront and fight, whether or not you choose to use the word. "Privilege" may be misused and abused by some liberals but that doesn't mean issues of race, gender and sexual orientation are trivial things to be ignored in favor of class reductionism. As anti-capitalists it's important to address and expose these hierarchies without losing sight of the fact that the struggle is ultimately of the working class, against capitalism. It's a problem to not make that connection at all. & imo talking about privilege can be useful enough for getting some people to "wake up" to the inherent inequality and exploitation that keeps the wheels of capitalism turning.

                                          [–]ellenokBiologial Sex Abolitionist 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                          Capitalism is failing and cis white men are going to flood the left (like they're flooding the right) pushing every non-economic issue aside because it doesn't concern them.

                                          [–]akhotsharks454 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          I think it's a mistake to put it so simply. Nazi Germany started with a failing economic system.

                                          [–]ellenokBiologial Sex Abolitionist 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          I didn't say we are going to win against the right, just that more people will be pushed to either side.

                                          [–]generic_username420 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          Why do you speak about cis white men like they're scum?

                                          [–]ellenokBiologial Sex Abolitionist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          #cisphobia
                                          #heterophobia
                                          #racismagainstwhites
                                          #misandry

                                          [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          lol, do I need to say it?

                                          [–]luckylucyp[M] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          'Demonizing' straight people is totally fine. Fuck off whoever reported this.

                                          [–]-Enkara-Brocialists to the wall -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Bingo!

                                          [–]841067 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Thank you for this post. 💖

                                          [–]redemma1968 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          Jesus, so u/nowaydaddioh is a mod here and can make announcements? They suck. They constantly attack people and make juvenile, over the top comments and accusations. Incessant more-radical-than-thou posturing bullshit. Seems about par for the course for this sub, tho

                                          [–]currentTissues 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                          By accepting people without a true understanding of privilege into anarchist circles (which means validating their opinions) you're bastardizing those circles. People don't turn to fash because they're angry about identity-based issues - they turn to fash because that's the ideology that appeals most to them when confronted with identity-based issues. So how far do you water down anarchy to keep them around? Should we be required to step on eggshells around poor white males to avoid turning potential-fash into full-fash?

                                          [–]id-entity 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                          Sceneism: turning exclusive privilege into exclusive anarchist circles.

                                          I'd love to be the dogmatically orthodox pig in the Animal Farm too, where do I apply?

                                          [–]currentTissues 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                          You think concepts of identity = dogma?

                                          Anarchy would actually become more inclusionary if it wasn't so tied to the punk rock genre. So many people have told me "you don't look like an anarchist" because I don't dress a certain way or listen to a certain type of music, and because I'm over 30. That is sceneism. Expecting people to at least have a basic understanding of anarchist principles isn't scene.

                                          [–]id-entity 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          That's a good question, and now that you ask, id-entity answers that yes, concepts of identity = dogma.

                                          E.g. Law of Identity, foundation of Western Logic, is conceptual dogma that fucks up clear thinking.

                                          [–]vikingsquad 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          See this is what I don't understand about the entrenchment of identity politics. If we're professing a revolutionary politics that seeks to overturn the State, capitalism, and the cultural underpinnings by which subjectivity is produced--- how then can supporters of identity politics hope to maintain the identities produced by capitalism/liberal democracy after the fall of capitalism/liberal democracy.

                                          Maintaining those identities after destroying their mechanisms of production is wanting to have your cake and eat it too, or to throw out the bath-water but save the baby.

                                          I know this final caveat plays into the testimonial aspect of identity politics, but I wrote that as a queer dude so I feel that by the logic of identity politics my queerness gives me the right to say those things. That's how it works, right?

                                          Anyways, I'm glad to see that you've been sensible throughout this thread.

                                          [–]12HectaresOfAcidbecause otherwise they'd change really frequently 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          identity politics

                                          how exactly is identity politics being defined here?

                                          how then can supporters of identity politics hope to maintain the identities produced by capitalism/liberal democracy after the fall of capitalism/liberal democracy.

                                          a. they are semi-independent of capitalism
                                          b. they must be actively destroyed along with capitalism; they won't just disappear afterwards
                                          c. analysing the hierarchy generated by these identities helps combat those hierarchies.

                                          [–]Faolinbeankilljoy 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          how then can supporters of identity politics hope to maintain the identities produced by capitalism/liberal democracy after the fall of capitalism/liberal democracy.

                                          Racism and sexism and other isms aren't going to disappear after capitalism. They were here before it and they will be here after it. Our identities are going to be maintained the same way they always have; by everyone else designating us as other.

                                          [–]WhoWouldHaveThunk1 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          Because nazism just appealed to the majority of germany, definetly not more complicated than that.

                                          [–]currentTissues 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Nazism was introduced by force for the most part.

                                          If you concede to fascists, they don't end up joining you, you end up joining them. You can boil it down to that.

                                          [–]noisewitch 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          I basically disagree with every single one of you at least 30%. I fear I'm not made for groups, movements, or communities.

                                          [–]TheDevil_TheLovers 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          If your concern is to attract more poor white people towards anarchism you can, I dunno, start by actually doing something to help them. Help them unionize, start survival programs, educate them, Idk, whatever is needed in your community. Even then, most white people aren't poor and most minorities aren't anarchist. The reason we have trouble recruiting ANYONE is because of state, capitalist, even Marxist propaganda against us and our absolutely pathetic presence on the US political grid. It isn't our language that turns people off it's our inability to show any kind of tangible solution (in their opinion). To them we are simply too idealistic. We have to organize & actually be seen as a viable alternative to capitalism in order for a mass movement to happen anytime soon.

                                          Also, if you'd rather side with fascist sympathisers than other anarchists what the fuck are you even doing here.

                                          [–]egosphilos 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          I think OP made some good points in that thread, you can't be too hostile to racist or sexist people etc. They just think "This ain't no ideology for me." Then move on. You have to be more gentle, gradually moving people away from their beliefs. You can't blame them for indoctrination. It isn't at the expense of minorities if we take a more practical approach toward bigotry. Seriously, we need to be more inviting to normal people (in a political sense).

                                          Also:

                                          brocialism

                                          [–]fartingxfarts 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          Seriously, we need to be more inviting to normal people (in a political sense).

                                          The thing is, talking about privilege and not sweeping it under the rug, as many liberals do, IS how to you get through to "normal people."

                                          As an immigrant woman of color, I understood & was against systemic racism and sexism before I really understood capitalism, and it was a natural progression from there to becoming anti-capitalist. It was easy cuz the racism and sexism was the connection, it was all right in front of my face. Who do you think was most influential to me in terms of learning about socialism/anarchism? Other women of color. Talking about all the issues that affect us.

                                          One approach doesn't have to be all approaches, but there are some of us out here talking to people in our communities in ways that are consistent with the reality they live with every day. It's not trivial.

                                          About your main point, though, I get what you're saying but I disagree as you're just making it way less welcoming and more hostile for women, poc and lgbtq. If you let the bigots in you're just pushing everybody else out.

                                          Edit: I also get the point of the OP-- it's true that the white working class shouldn't be left out, I'm just responding mostly to "normal people"

                                          [–]anansi73 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          I'm just responding mostly to "normal people"

                                          Too many of these folks read "normal people" as "white people."

                                          [–]fartingxfarts 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Yep. But that's the sort of thinking that needs to die.

                                          [–]egosphilos 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Good point there. I think we need to reach out to both white males and more privileged people and also more oppressed people like yourself.

                                          [–]XavierSylvanpost-work sounds cool 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          Being poor is no excuse for being a piece of shit.

                                          I don't know... it kind of is, since being poor has a lot to do with being poorly educated, and being poorly educated can make people much more susceptible to reactionary propaganda.

                                          It's a tough issue: when so many parts of their living situation are conspiring to make them reactionary, how do we instill class consciousness?

                                          [–]noisewitch 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          people here only recognize the deterministic nature of the universe when its convenient.

                                          [–]tupadre97 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          lol that "libertarian" brocialists even think they're real anarchists

                                          [–]vikingsquad 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          Revolutionary politics should be a mix of overthrowing capitalism and what often gets called "identity politics." Brocialists favor the former over the latter. It seems that several people in this thread, OP included, favor tipping the needle on the scale to ID politics over economics.

                                          We should be calling people in when possible, and calling people out when necessary. Whatever people show up are the right people, and by using this academic gatekeeping to shout down someone who might be amenable to anarchism is not going to help.

                                          [–]locustwings 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                          Why is this stickied?

                                          [–]currentTissues 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          As an example of how many people in this sub are WMRAs and have no understanding of anarchism.

                                          [–]Misiame 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Because there are a shit ton of racists on this subreddit that need calling out

                                          [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          For the lulz.

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                                            [–]TheWorldTreeWithers▶ /r/Communalists -1ポイント0ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                            Privilege theory is basically a liberal constellation of ideas that look at the particulars of society rather than the whole. And yes, identity politics are often quite regressive and driving people away from the left. Here's a good article, a bit marxist, but good nonetheless:

                                            What’s wrong with privilege theory?

                                            [–]nowaydaddiohPost-Civ Anti-Carnist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                            Define identity politics in this context.

                                            [–]Anarkat| antifa | fuck the police -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            You did an excellent job at weeding out all the anarcho-liberals and fake anarchists. Thanks for making this thread.

                                            [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                                            [removed]

                                              [–]gooberdoobersⒶ☭ 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              "Intersectionality is inconsistent, segregates and creates a self fulfilling victim prophecy, via authoritarianism"

                                              i dont think you know what intersectionality is, like at all. the basic principle of intersectionality is universal solidarity with all struggles and analysis of how they overlap. youre confusing liberal co-optation of struggles and rhetoric with actual intersectionality. where is this authoritarianism you speak of? youve gotta back up these claims. i really don't think you know what youre talking about when you say intersectionality

                                              "We are tribal and divisive by nature" "creates a self fulfilling victim prophecy, via authoritarianism" "Sad to see it indoctrinating many subcultures" youre using a lot of right wing rhetoric here

                                              "Labeling all people down lines of skin color and gender is arbitrary and racist/sexist at the core."

                                              intersectionality agrees with you here. it just acknowledges that because the powers that be create and enforce these divides people are oppressed arbitrarily and oppressed groups are created out of these arbitrary labels and distinctions. like the solution is not just to forget that people are oppressed along these lines and pretend bad shit doesnt happen because of it youve gotta show people that these divides are manufactured and enforced through capitalism and social conditioning.

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