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[–]Endorsed ContributorMattyAnon 129ポイント130ポイント  (14子コメント)

This is a solid post. I've read most of it before on here, but it does bear repeating.

You can only be OPEN to the possibility of having one.

Too long I tried to make my relationships with women work. This just made them lazy and mean. Never again. It either works or I walk, no more "trying to make things work". And I will never sign a legal document saying "I am financially responsible for you and no matter what you do I'll let you have control over me". Always be prepared to walk away.

Why Do the Services Have to Be Non-Sexual?

Another reason - because if her services are sexual, you are overvaluing sex with her and undervaluing sex with yourself. If you make it a transactional "you get my commitment for your sex" then you are buying sex and she is selling it. If you have the attitude of "sex is something we both share with each other, what else do you do for me?" you are putting your sex as being as valuable as hers. You both enjoy it, so you both do it. And you won't be paying for it in any way (including with commitment).

I had this frame when I was seeing a FWB. She started to list what she wanted me to do, and I told her to list her contribution, starting with me saying "and don't say sex, that's something we both enjoy with each other". It worked out awesomely, she was quite traditional in her roles and we saw each other for years.

Sex should not be exchanged for anything. As soon as you do, you're playing beta game. Sex is a natural prerequisite of an intimate relationship, and will not be paid for.

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet[S] 58ポイント59ポイント  (3子コメント)

Too long I tried to make my relationships with women work. This just made them lazy and mean. Never again. It either works or I walk

Exactly. This is the essence of what I mean when I say

winning a LTR is HER problem, not yours

LTRs are what bitches want. If she wants it, she needs to work for it.

Getting to sex is your job. And if the two of you have had sex, then you've already done it.

If you have the attitude of "sex is something we both share with each other, what else do you do for me?" you are putting your sex as being as valuable as hers.

Precisely. Sex is a mutual benefit. She's getting something out of it at the same time you are.

Newbies take heed: regarding sex in this way will help you take the pussy off the pedestal and put your time and effort up there instead.

[–]reigorius 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Goddamn, this has been a fucking basic error in my whole dating system. Good fucking plus physical attractiveness meant relationship if I liked the girl. And I usually liked the girl because of the awesome sex. Taking that away and then what? Now a girl has to do her part. Makes a whole lot of sense of my inevitable pedestalizing of girls I am intimate with. I never understood why, despite my grasp of TRP theory, I keep putting bitches on the pedestal. But now it makes fucking sense, finally!

This is also a golden guide for transgression towards MRP. A great sub for how to deal with a woman in long term relationship. This is the missing piece really, though it needs a bit of tweaking. Thanks man, I appreciate your time and effort you put into it. I love this sub.

Can I cross-post it on MRP? I'd like to pair it with additional insightful comments from /u/MattyAnon and especially /u/TRPlurker.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMattyAnon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can I cross-post it on MRP?

Sure thing as far as I'm concerned.... married men need all the fucking help they can get :)

[–]BramRhodesDouglas 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit dude this is brilliant. Thank you so much for posting this.

[–][deleted] 47ポイント48ポイント  (7子コメント)

My girlfriend tried playing the "look at all the sex I give you!" card the other day. I told her that when I buy a car, I expect the engine to start. Then I told her to keep the sex, we both know it's much easier for me to find a girl to fuck than for her to find a guy who will fuck her like I do. That changed her tune real fucking quick.

Sex is not something you should ever allow to be held over your head. Nothing will run a girl off faster than displaying a mentality of scarcity. If she wants to hold it hostage, let her. We don't negotiate with terrorists.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

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    [–]tizzy62 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Pretty sure that's not it - might be more along the lines of calling women bitches, infantile - and then plotting how to have sex with these infants.

    [–]Nothing_Gazes_Back 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Perhaps they should stop acting like infantile bitches, then?

    [–]Endorsed ContributorMattyAnon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Awesome frame, great work!

    [–]PoliticalIylncorrect 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sex should not be exchanged for anything. As soon as you do, you're playing beta game. Sex is a natural prerequisite of an intimate relationship, and will not be paid for.

    I made that mistake once.

    It either works or I walk

    This is the rule I follow. No need to waste my precious time on someone that has issues.

    [–]Bud-Bundy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Newbie here and obviously late to the party. But I have to say this absolutely changed my life and I can't thank you enough. I have field reports on field reports of pieces of this working. Wow I can't even explain the change. Incredible stuff.

    [–]michael_wilkins 63ポイント64ポイント  (5子コメント)

    This may seem harsh, and in many respects it is, but think about the times you've been talking to a Girl and you've said a single thing wrong, perhaps a joke wasn't funny. Or you replied to a message too early, a single mistake and you were gone.

    [–]verify_account 30ポイント31ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Good point. Women are even more brutal at times with mistakes. There is no reason you should go soft.

    [–]caesarfecit 36ポイント37ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Women are only brutal with mistakes with guys they're either not interested in or looking to play. A woman that actually is interested in you will be surprisingly patient and cooperative.

    [–]Temptationn 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    talked to a girl for 4 months, wasn't feeling good one day and no one was replying to my text I lost frame when she took to long to reply and flipped on her, she pretty much slowly stopped talking to me after that because I no contacted her for 2 days after losing frame so it was my fault.

    [–]caesarfecit 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The solution to that is simple - call their bluff. If you're interacting with a woman and she's acting like the slightest wrong move on your part will lead to you getting blown out, it's because she's trying to make you insecure, so she keeps the upper hand.

    If you're with a woman and this front actually isn't bullshit, you're not going to get her. Why? Because making a mistake is inevitable, and if a woman's patience with you is that short, is it really worth the effort?

    So even if she doesn't cave after you call her bluff and walk away, then all that means is you've successfully quit while you're still ahead.

    Shady, needy women know that men don't like to admit defeat and quit, so they play games with guys they actually have little to no interest in sleeping with to get the milk without having to buy the cow. And if you play her game, you reduce your slim chance to a non-existent one - and she won't do right by you and tell you to your face.

    [–]look_good 39ポイント40ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I remember reading your original guide when I first found the red pill and wanted to be offended by the harshness of your language.

    Now I find it humorous. Good to see things have changed for me. Solid submission, thanks for contributing.

    [–]thisornothing 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Interesting, I unconciously follow all the rules laid out here, but I still had a bit of a default "I'm offended by the language" reaction to this, but I don't really know why.

    Guess I've got ways to go, but again, I agree with every damn point laid out here.

    [–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet[S] 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I unconciously follow all the rules laid out here, but I still had a bit of a default "I'm offended by the language" reaction to this, but I don't really know why.

    It's like lifting weights. If you haven't used a muscle in a long time, it'll hurt like hell when you start working it out.

    Keep flexing that benevolent misogyny. Eventually it'll stop aching and start moving bitches with ease.

    [–]thisornothing 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh yeah, I've been doing in relative ignorance it for the past two years. Decided I didn't like who I was and set about changing myself, and how I approach relationships and women. The amount of sex I started having has fucking exploded, but I've wobbled a bit recently. Finding Redpill has been great, it's cemented the language of what I've been doing, and given me a renewed sense of how fucking awesome I am. Women are fucking lucky to get near this shit.

    [–]look_good 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Blue pill conditioning wants to stick with you. I've gotten to where I'm able to love women more than I used to while also understanding that bitches ain't shit. I understand them better now and they love me more for it.

    Be wary of getting complacent tho, "don't get high on your own supply" is a good mantra to keep.

    [–]OgSlippyToad 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    "Bitches aint shit but hoes and tricks"

    [–][deleted] 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    For the returning "I love you" bit, nothing ever beats a sly smile and a "I know" every so often. Serves the 2/3 purpose and they love it at the same time. Plus if youre like me, you get to pretend your han solo.

    Whatever the case, completely ignoring her confession of love is a bit too harsh IMO.

    [–]MeltzerDriver 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Another good response is ''Bitch, you should'' (or just you should).

    Stolen from Patrice O'Neal.

    [–]ExamplePrime 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is really solid. Nice work.

    I've learned a lot from TRP in the months I've been on here, seeing what I can apply to my life and seriously thinking about the stuff I initially disagree with. One of the most important changes in my life was doing exactly what the whole focus of this article tells me to do - Realise my time has worth.

    I had someone go on about how I was their best friend and I never agreed because she had never proved her devotion to being a Rank 3. So I gave her the opportunity by inviting her to an event as my plus one. She never came, not even blowing me off politely and went from spending a couple of hours with me a day to a couple a month. She dropped straight to Rank 1 that day, and now to Rank 0.

    It was tough for me to tell her how angry I was, tough for me to reject her pleas for attention after years of always handing out my time for free. But it's been beneficial for me in the long run, and surprise surprise she has moved on already. The hardest part of learning this stuff was realising that girls can get attention from anywhere, and that upsetting a woman isn't some sort of great evil, because they'll just fall back to another with ease.

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

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      [–]Dildo_Saggins 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Shit-tests know no bounds, male friends included. If you are not gaining anything from the relationship (friendship), then there is no reason to continue it.

      [–]1mr_nate_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Just getting around to reading this today.

      I haven't had to shift my mentality so extremely as I did by reading and internalizing this post since around 6 months ago when I was really gaining a more experienced management of TRP methodologies. So for the past several months coming back and reading RP posts has simply been an exercise of ingraining what has already been learned and reinforcing preciously comprehended ideas.

      But THIS post, specifically from "Punishment and Demotion" to the end, really forced me to confront the abundance mentality more directly. This post is fresh, should be read thoroughly by even experienced RP men, and is definitely advanced reading for new RP members.

      Thanks for the refreshing post, it forced me to shift my perspective like I did when first arriving here.

      [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Just want to say, I discovered this sub-reddit way too late. Got divorced and 3 kids, so 18 years of enslavement. 5 years of marriage. I wanted kids and a family and house for kids (having come from poor background).But alas, it did not workout at all. My impression while married was , (on the way my ex acted or behaved) that it is the normal for a woman here(in US) to do, I will suck it up and be a good provider. Which I did. But it came to naught. But it does not matter. My kids are healthy, I learned a most valuable lesson by committing most important mistake in my life. Thanks again. I definitely got validation on what I have been feeling ever since I went through the divorce court.

      [–][deleted] 17ポイント18ポイント  (8子コメント)

      You’ll never say to your bitch “You’re a level 1 plate now!” or “You’re going down a rank for that shit!”

      I'm gonna get a whiteboard and make a chart of where all the bitches stand and hang it on the bedroom door.

      This is a really good post, I do think that permanent demotion is a little...permanent, as I think both you and her can learn from the mistakes you make but there are definitely cases where you can see it's just a part of who she is and she needs to be dropped. That very much depends on the severity of her actions and your understanding of her personality.

      [–]TecoAndJix 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I have a system with my current LTR where I say points out loud. Wrong dressing on the salad you brought me? Minus 10 points. I'll come home to my entire place deep-cleaned and she will be cheesing asking me "how many points this is worth." She knows it's a joke, but it's still a good way to say "hey, you are wrong about this"

      [–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

      I do think that permanent demotion is a little...permanent

      In this model, the behaviours that warrant permanent demotion are carefully selected. They're the kinds of behaviours that indicate poor suitability for long-term investment.

      It's not worth the effort to try and fix a bitch if her issues run so deep that she is unstable, disrespectful, impulsive, or chronically irresponsible as a result of them. It's better to just start fresh with a new girl.

      [–]justadavid 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

      It's not worth the effort to try and fix a bitch if her issues run so deep that she is unstable, disrespectful, impulsive, or chronically irresponsible as a result of them.

      Good post. Q: Since AWALT, why drop her for a new girl that will be, well, AWALT? Circular logic, or throw up hands and say, the hell with this, I have a better time at a library than raking the grass to find a new whinems. I sure know a bunch of whinems, but I don't know many that would be good in an LTR. It's a desert out there. --D

      [–]aDrunkenWhaler 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

      AWALT doesn't mean what you think it means. Read the sidebar.

      [–]justadavid -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      AWALT is All Women Are Like That. I'm pointing out that if that's the case, then the next woman is likely to share those ...charming attributes. (About the first acronym I learned here was AWALT). Thanks, --D

      [–]RedMoonAscendant 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      AWALT means all the underlying motivations are the same among women, not that they'll all act on them the same.

      Unicorns exist. They are merely EXTREMELY RARE and need to be built, not found.

      Because AWALT.

      [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Your whiteboard idea could really inspire some competition. Might work out nicely in your favor.

      [–][deleted] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      One of the best posts I have seen on here. There is some serious wisdom in this. Every word makes sense. I am considering promoting a current girl to level 3. I will be reading this post every day while I consider her promotion. This is serious gold and deserves to be on the sidebar.

      [–]Physio_Tool 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

      This is a solid post and thank you for writing this. The only thing I have to say in addition to what has already been noted by others is that following a 2/3 rule, especially for text can come off as robotic and weird, like your trying to control the interaction. In general its always best to say less then necessary, but over text its too formless to have a rigid rule like that.

      [–]strps 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      In general I think a 'her effort minus 1' approach is the best way to look at this: you are the one to end the text convos by not responding to the inevitable sappy shit, and the last 'i love you' should come from her as well, after as many as you think she needs to get on with her day in a normal human fashion.

      [–]thefirst365days 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I've had good success responding with emoji-only messages. "Hey can I see you this weekend?" Thumbs-up. "I had a good time with you last night." Smiley with sunglasses.

      [–]runningismycrack 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Good post OP. I agree that if a bitch intentionally humiliates you, she's gone because if she doesn't respect you enough as an LTR it will only get worse. Move out and move on, plenty of pussy in the sea.

      [–][削除されました]  (17子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]Cookiest 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

        HSP makes it explicit that there are some things that are not trainable, like if your SO is rotten.

        However there are direct rewards in the system. Your time and relationship is the reward. In response to her behavior she receives more of your time and affection.

        [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]Cookiest 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I totally agree that we should be passing shit tests and correcting when we've failed.

          What I would emphasize (the part I agree with OP) is that some people are not worth your time. Some people are bad people. If your aim is to enter a LTR then you're trying to sift through the chaff and waste. His system helps you identify valuable people and if they have a SERIOUS character flaw you don't waste more of your precious time (sunk cost trap) because you now know they have a major un-fixable problem.

          I don't think shit tests count as a character flaw which is perhaps what you're thinking. Serious character flaws represent themselves in other ways.

          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

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            [–]RedMoonAscendant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Something I've learned from this community is that nothing is really hard-and-fast.

            If something is presented as an absolute, it's meant to mean "almost all the time." This seems to be a normal human mode of communication, so I can't fault it. Just recall, most of the time you're dealing with Machiavellian Males, not Rational Autists (such as myself).

            When I read this guide, I imagine "demote her N levels, and she can never rise above it EVER AGAIN" really means "she can never rise above it ever again unless she puts forth some serious measurable effort that almost no woman would ever put forth"

            [–]dracolius 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

            You've almost got it. The point is abundance mentality. You're not shooting them, just releasing them back into the wild. Which is what happens with an untrainable dog anyway: it becomes more effort to keep them than to let them go.

            On one hand, you're somewhat right in that for most practical purposes, this post's advice will nearly always keep younger men from getting in LTRs. If they follow it and actually end up with a woman at level 3, they've gotten lucky and/or filtered a huge number of girls to find one with above average value.

            On the other hand, nearly all younger men should avoid LTRs anyway. Older men who want to settle down may be willing to make more compromises, but if they adopted the right mentality when they were younger - say, by following this guide - those compromises will be more limited.

            Never forget, barring some serious massive dieoff scenario, there will always be a better bitch out there. Again, abundance mentality. As others have pointed out in this thread, they take exactly the same stance with us (more easily the younger they are), so it's not exactly unfair.

            [–]reigorius 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Solid point. I agree on the part of younger guys not getting into a LTR just yey. But if they happen to do want one or are older, /u/trplurker post refines the original post. Basically instead of permanent demotion, I believe trplurker is trying to advocate something like three strikes and you're out.

            In regards to the dog metaphor we're using, I'd like to add this note: your molding your dog to be a life long companion. So you don't release the dog into the wild after one major error. No, you happen to see potential. Otherwise the dog wouldn't be with you to begin with.

            If the dog is truly untrainable, by YOU, then by all means, let it go. It doesn't want to be trained by you. And the two of you are not the right mix. But if the dog makes a mistake and it actively tries to make up for it and you see change in the unwanted behavior, then the dog stays. It's not exiled after one punishable offense.

            And so you keep doing your part. But after two or three strikes of unforgivable offenses then the dog is out. You have standards, you did your part to your best capabilities. If the dogs behavior doesn't change, then it's time to let the dog go. And it could be you, maybe you're too blue to be topdog. Or the dog has traits that cannot be fixed by you. Whatever the reason might be, one should reflect upon it, alter his approach if needed and move on.

            Now substitute dog for girl if the above doesn't make sense.

            [–]RedMoonAscendant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Hmmm. I really like this "three strikes you're out" thing.

            Like TRPlurker, I had that nagging feeling something was wrong. Just this one change to three-strikes makes it seem perfectly reasonable.

            [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

            [deleted]

              [–]dracolius 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              We should never be dishonest to each other.

              I agree with that statement. OP could have been a bit more direct, not to mention more concise.

              Looking it over again, though, I don't see it as trying to bait and switch much. The title itself contains the phrase "managing your bitches", which to me is a humorous indication that this has very little to do with "if you want a successful LTR"-- something the guide in fact recommends against seeking.

              When I think back on all the ways I've seen younger men undermine the respect others have for them, the post rings true overall.

              Unless you want to live in a bubble, the days when guys could settle down early with "the right girl" are over. As you say, AWALT. It takes time and pain for most of us to develop the strength necessary to hold frame effectively. If a guy is going to do it anyway - as so many will (most noobs won't take the advice, you're right) - those who keep OP's words in mind will be far less likely to end up screwing themselves over.

              In this sub, I'm okay with a bias against LTRs. I fully understand your point that none of us is perfect and that compromises are inevitable, but being extra strict up front is an excellent way to mitigate the amount of disaster that occurs the next time your frame slips.

              [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm glad this is getting upvoted. The basics of this post are spot on and Ive benefitted from the read. However, many of the details are just a little.. Off. For me, what that shows is lack of actual life experience with the matter. He makes a healthy LTR no different than a plate, which defeats the purpose. Whats great about an LTR is that you can let off the gas a bit. Youve proved your fitness time and again to her and you gain leniency. Yes she will still test you forever and always, just as you will always keep her on her toes, but it isn't the same as in the plate stage which he portrays it as.

              It seems like he is probably a master plate spinner that has never actually had a healthy LTR. Which is not a bad thing unless you're writing a post having much to do with LTRs. As I said though, the majority of the post is spot on.

              [–]tallwheel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              No women could actually remain in GF territory for very long

              I'm not so sure. Been with my girl a year and a half, and she's doing pretty well so far. (But then again, she isn't a Western woman, and we don't live in "The West".) If she ever committed a major offense like HSP outlined above she would be permanently demoted just as HSP suggests. This has always been my policy. There are certain things which can never be forgiven and can never be fixed.

              I know it's hard, but you have to maintain an abundance mentality, even in LTR's. That is the whole point. If you are in a relationship with the goal of "making it work" long term, then you are going to eventually run into trouble and lose your grip on the reigns, for the very reason that HSP mentions in his post.

              2) A long-term relationship CANNOT be your end goal. You can only be OPEN to the possibility of having one.

              It may seem sad to all of us hopeless romantics (and pretty much all men are at heart), but this is the correct way to go about it. Do not plan your life around being with the same girl forever. Do not make your happiness dependent on keeping a certain girl around. That's exactly the attitude that is bringing many men to rock bottom psychologically. It's hard, but you have to maintain abundance mentality, even in LTR's. If you're married... well then, as HSP basically said, good fucking luck.

              [–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Here is why this post has some serious issues with it.

              Are you going to say its "problematic" next?

              Firstly, it requires both the male and female to be perfect in order to function, otherwise the man is in a state of perpetual plate spinning.

              This is MGTOW idiocy. The requirement is that one would be enforcing is discipline within his relationship, that the woman should remain in a perpetual state of interest in pleasing her man. This is known to many women as happiness. It may be alien if someone has never considered a mans position in the relationship, let alone experienced such success.

              No women could actually remain in GF territory for very long and no man could maintain a perfect frame 24/7/365.

              More MGTOW idiocy. There are women out there who will continually strive to make the man in the relationship happy. This is often set up by following OPs guide. Also, there is no need to maintain a frame if this is an inherent part of a man in a relationship. Men who cannot follow this guide should not be in relationships.

              Humans are imperfect and make mistakes

              Exhibit A: your comment.

              in this guide punishment is permanent and therefor there is no room for training.

              Wrong for the third time. The poster goes into detail about demoting a girl and potential reasons for doing so.

              If we were to apply this same method to dogs, the result would be shooting the dog the first time it misbehaved. Not a very effective training method right there.

              Demoting a girl does not get rid of her permanently unless she was just a ONS/Plate. If those girls are crossing the mans boundaries then they don't deserve any more of the mans time and attention.

              Because of these facts, combined with HSP being a fairly intelligent and veteran TRP member I have to conclude that this guide's purpose is the exact opposite of it's statement. It's not about managing bitch's for an LTR, but instead keeping the guy from ever committing to an LTR in the first place.

              I'm not going to put what I've concluded about you here.

              A guide for noobs to keep them from ever making the stupid mistake of marriage by preventing them from escalating past FWB. Won't work as noobs never take this kind of advice, but clever work anyway.

              I lied. I'm concluding that you should get out of the basement more often and get some real life experience with LTRs if you meet the requirements: You are at least 25 years old and have slept with at least 25 girls. Otherwise you should be out getting your n-count up. Also, there is very little mention of marriage in the post, there is no level 4 and rightly so.

              I also recommend re-reading the post

              [–]reigorius 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Dude, we are here to discuss things that work, not to pick fights.

              [–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              OP's post works. Re-reading it would work too. Sometimes you've got to be forceful. When it comes to clearing up MGTOW stupidity one should be forceful.

              [–]justadavid -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              If we were to apply this same method to dogs, the result would be shooting the dog the first time it misbehaved.

              Yes. However a woman is just a woman, whereas a dog is your best friend ever, never shafts you, doesn't sleep with other guys/girls, is always happy to see you, and loves just hangin' out with you. P.J. O'Rourke also points out, female dogs have six nipples, which is pretty funny! --D

              p.s. Harry Truman said something about this: "If you want a true friend, in Washington, D.C., get a dog."

              [–]tallwheel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              2) A long-term relationship CANNOT be your end goal. You can only be OPEN to the possibility of having one.

              This. This is the mistake most men make, even those who consider themselves RP. It may seem sad to all of us hopeless romantics (and pretty much all men are at heart), but this is the correct way to go about it. Do not plan your life around being with the same girl forever. Do not make your happiness dependent on keeping a certain girl around. That's exactly the attitude that is bringing many men to rock bottom psychologically. It's hard, but you have to maintain abundance mentality, even in LTR's. If you're married... well then, as HSP basically said, good fucking luck.

              I think it is a reluctance to accept this that is motivating the critics of this post. They need to have their romantic fantasy. Otherwise, life has no meaning to them. Advice: Find another meaning to live. Women are just part of the ride.

              [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So much effort into this post. Really, really appreciate it!!! Cannot say that enough. I am glad we can come together to collaborate.

              [–]YoungRedPiller 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Where does a guy that has never had a girlfriend and still doesn't despite 6 months of continuous lifting and self improvement fit in? There's only a certain point to which SMV can be maxed out, what to do?

              [–]jopher 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              if you think you've maxed out your SMV, you need to check yourself. There are always ways you can improve your SMV.

              [–]TurtlesReadPapers 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              A problem I've faced and only recently began to embrace is the fact that I am the prize, and not anyone else. TRP advocates thinking like that constantly, but this post really made it click for me. I couldn't find objective ways to assess how a relationship was going and what a girl was worth to me besides how it felt, but non-sexual favors makes a ton of sense. Time and effort should be rewarded with the like, and this is clear-cut in the way that it gives anyone a basic foundation to build from if they don't have one already.

              [–]Hennez 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This should be implemented by everybody here as sacredly as our gym's routine.

              [–]evilkenevil 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I would say this to the lurking casual reader: as harsh as this may sound it is at it's core the absolute truth. It took me YEARS of experience(s) to gather these conclusions fighting the constant tide of society's PC version of what it means to be a man.

              [–]reigorius 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              PC? Can you help me out here?

              [–]evilkenevil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              "Politically correct." For me, RP is about action and choices and not verbalized. If RP doctrine is discussed openly as a concept (even in the smallest of ways) in mixed company it is always catagorized as angry/misogynistic/womanizing and judgements are made. I'm 50 years old and have learned to discuss only in the company of men and act differently in front of women. Women can't and don't want to discuss any part of this in an honest and intelligent fashion while simultaneously desire a man in the most deprived manner who treats her in a RP manner. I push my RP "agenda" when I want something or someone is presenting a shit test. Actually, thinking about it, I use it in my line of work more than I credit simply to keep people from acting like children.

              [–]LukeMooney 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Favorite Post I've read in a while, a thoroughly entertaining and thoughtful piece.

              [–]soccerplusaviation 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

              What's your opinion on a girl that invests heavily in you, she pays for dinners movies, buys me bday presents w/o expecting anything major in return, gave me her Netflix account (rarely use it) but is slowly letting herself go. She used to workout, and I loved grabbing her ass, but know she is skinny fat.

              EDIT: When i read the title and the post, I was reading it in the voice of A Pimp Named Slickback from the Boondocks. If you haven't seen the show, I suggest you watch it. It's pretty Redpill.

              [–]axonMagnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              oh man you just been watching that show a lot , one episode that comes to mind is breezy , literealy a comedy for chris brown i think its at the end of season 3 :D , its gold

              [–]caesarfecit 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

              I sincerely hope this is a parody. Why?

              Because even though there are many aspects and specific points in this post that are money, the whole tone of it reads as deeply distrustful and paranoid. There's no reason to refer to women as bitches in this context other than to be Reddit style-edgy. I'm not saying this because I'm offended, I just don't see a good reason for it other than self-indulgence.

              The only reason to follow a mindset like this is if you inherently distrust and fear women/intimacy/investment - so according to this post, you give as little of it as possible, and only after she jumps through your hoops. And any flirting by her is a shit test, unless she's explictly making herself sexually available.

              The problem is, when you act in bad faith, as this guide implies you should, you attract the same. There's no difference between this mindset and the bullshit advice feminists and outlets like Cosmo give women. Play hard to get, no sex until the third date, make him work for it etc.

              The Red Pill should be about resolving the differences this exploitative mindset with honesty and non-neediness, not fighting fire with fire. The games people play have no effect on you if you don't play into them.

              Game battles are the no-win scenarios of seduction. Why? Because people play games out of neediness. So regardless of which one of you is proven to be less needy, all it means is you've got a needy manipulative woman to deal with, who won't hold up her end of the bargain without a gun to her head.

              Trust is a vital element of seduction. Not because women need it (and they do), but because we need it too. If you don't trust and don't have any rapport with the woman you're sleeping with, you turn every woman you're with into a quasi-prostitute/slut. I'm not saying you have to love every woman you bang, just that sex without any connection, all the time, gets old very fast.

              That's why the Golden Ratio of Pook should be a guideline rather than an actual rule. The real takeaway from it is to not give women a free lunch, not continually hold out on them. A woman who actually has value and knows it won't put up with that crap, and a woman who isn't worth a damn, will give it back to you every chance she can get.

              [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

              [deleted]

                [–]caesarfecit 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                There's a big big difference between blind trust and no trust. OP advocates the latter as much as possible - that's bad faith.

                Give trust when it's earned, and not stingily - or else she'll be perfectly justified doing the same to you. And even if she doesn't, being in any kind of relationship with no trust is just shitty.

                It's not about white knighting, it's about being fair and acting in good faith. Without good faith, no relationship lasts past the second self interest is not being served. That's why BB relationships end so suddenly and swiftly.

                You want to protect yourself from hypergamous women, don't let her get away with bad faith. She'll either clean up her act or let you leave.

                Letting a person get away with bad faith is the definition of moral hazard, because it just encourages more of the same. Do you who does that? Betas.

                Now, lets say you've learned to keep your walls up and demand as much as you can get away with from women without giving anything in return. Do know who does that? Fake alphas, and they only get shitty, often crazy women - because women of character won't play that game (best case - not for very long). And they wonder why AWALT?

                [–]juliusstreicher -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                You're misusing the phrase "bad faith". Bad faith means treachery on one's part. I think that what you mean is "NO faith".

                [–]reigorius -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                The 70% divorce rate is not solely because of trust reasons.

                I think /u/ceasarfecit is advocating something else here. Maybe likes attract likes and in order to attain something, you got to give some leeway.

                [–]Geleemann 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The reason for divorce between a man and a woman doesn't matter. Marriage is not beneficial for a man in this day and age, regardless. Period.

                [–]axonMagnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                you know what buddy good luck with that , come back and whine all about it we will be here

                [–]Endorsed Contributorstonepimpletilists 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                I liked this one so much, I took you up on your offer, and am working on an amended version for MRP.

                [–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                I'd be interested to see it.

                The strategies shouldn't change too much. Your main challenge will be in figuring out how to apply leverage without the power to walk away.

                That's why I don't condone marriage for any many who hasn't already made the mistake. If you're presently unmarried, STAY THAT WAY.

                You notice that there is no "level 4" in the guide, no "wife" level. That's not a mistake or an oversight. You should never promote a bitch so high that you give away all of your power.

                [–]Endorsed Contributorstonepimpletilists -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                This. It's not the crowd for level 4 here.

                it's up now, really just some enforcement of them needing you more than you need them, the girl brain is emotional, divorce rape is after she's emotionally disconnected. And reversing your 2/3 rule for getting points back. 150% to show it is a sincere gesture.

                And switching term plate status with shitty roommate, only useful to spar with on your post marriage map.

                Most of it hit home with my map with the spouse, so it was easy to picture your logic

                [–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                NO, there is no level 4. Marriage cannot be a reward you give a bitch. If you surrender your power, you are a moron.

                The married version of this post would be written for men who made the mistake of getting married BEFORE they found the Red Pill - it would be a strategy guide for keeping your wife from divorce raping you and MAYBE a guide for reviving attraction.

                It should not be a guide of how to award women with marriage. Getting married is suicidal and retarded.

                [–]reigorius -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                A lot of readers in MRP are already in a marriage. This should help the guys with pedestal issues to see that sex is not a reward. It is an activity you both enjoy. Take that out and then what else has the wife to offer.

                Also since this is a mostly American inspired sub, there are a bunch of Christians who have marriage as a goal in life to achieve. How unwise it might be with your current laws, MRP offer ways to avoid the obvious landmines in marriages and learn how to defuse or reflect them.

                [–]S_0ci0path 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Absolute genius. Relationships 101.

                [–]Nanpa 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                I've only took the red pill in the last couple of months but this post speaks so much to me. It's just everything put down into neat words - everything that I was so blind to but now see so clearly. Thank you so much for this post. I'm going to read it every morning when I wake up to solidify this is my head.

                [–]axonMagnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                damn right son _^ , this will be my morning ritual

                [–]pirateninj4 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Double commenting but to all the fuckheads out there that can't read good, learn to take a fucking joke compliment. Holy shit this community gets more bitch like with every passing day.

                [–]1PantsonFire1234 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                My plate only bought me dinners, Mcdonalds and weed. Does this count? I also hate receiving gifts, I don't know why but it makes me uncomfortable as hell.

                Once had a failing relationship with a girl and she consistently asked me to pick a pair of sneakers as a gift from her. Everytime she brought it up I tried to change the subject. She told me afterward that she got a nice deal with her local store and that's why she could afford the expensive gift. It made me feel slightly better knowing she was cheap.

                Am I the only one?

                Having a day out and it being payed for is great, doing some activity that I love for free. But I know very few girls that put this kind of effort in their guy. Usually it's gifts.

                [–]Being18Rocks_18 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                So does sex always come first or can she do non-sexual favors/become emotionally attached then lead up to sex?

                [–]thisornothing 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                I'm not really into the language being used at points, but I totally agree with the overall message. It creates and cements a feeling of abundance in yourself, avoids "oneitis" and most importantly - helps you avoid women who flat-out just aren't worth your fucking time. Which, as it turns out, seems to be the vast fucking majority of them.

                [–]MeltzerDriver 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Guess you haven't ever listened to Patrice O'Neal or the Black Phillip Show. You need to get used to the word ''bitch'' or ''cunt'' and not be offended by it, even if you choose not to use said words.

                It's the belief system that you can say whatever you want to a women and not fear the consequences that means something, not the actual use of the word being used to hurt them.

                [–]pdtrading 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                This is such a well versed and well written guide! Thank You!!

                [–]Nazrath2112 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Great post, I took notes, I dont think ill remember them but I did write stuff down. Impressive.

                [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Though a woman can subsist off the benefits paid for by our taxes, the government cannot give her the love, the attention, the stability, the masculine reassurance, and direct intervention that are so crucial to her emotional well-being. A woman feels vulnerable in a role of leadership, and she feels lost without a masculine leader to boldly claim responsibility for confronting all of the challenges that terrify her. No government can provide that for her. For that, she must come to us.

                And for that, we must demand a price.

                My favorite part and spot on. Great guide. How long did this take you? This is how I feel after I read your post.

                [–][deleted] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

                "The key trait of the modern western woman is her absolute lack of concern for the desires of men."

                My Tinder plate refused to blow me because she was on her period. She jokingly was implying that if she doesn't bust her nut she won't bust mine. Women are deranged. They've been brainwashed to think like men. Fuck I hate this bullshit. I fucked her on our second date and now she plays virgin. She sees me as BB I guess and wants to limit the free samples. If I get to fuck her again I will bust it on her dumb face and just walk out...

                [–]axonMagnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                brother, retract the attention and demote her accordingly _^

                [–]htbf -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

                You should also remember this: sex is the most fundamental pre-requisite of any non-platonic interaction between a guy and a girl. You'll never find yourself in a situation where a girl is giving you gifts and cooking you meals, but NOT having sex with you (unless you’re both a coward and too daft to read the signs). If sex isn't happening, then something is terribly amiss and you must either correct it or next her.

                You forgot one option that is "one of you is (or both are) religious enough and don't engage in sex outside of marriage". I've known a lot of North African girls in this position, believers yet not practicing except for the big stuff (fasting once a year, virginity, alcohol). I wish there was an RP "philosophy" on how to deal with such people. I find them desirable for their N-count of zero that makes them much more for wife-worthy than an ex-rider of the carousel.

                [–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                I wish there was an RP "philosophy" on how to deal with such people.

                The issue with RP is that it's tailor-made for intergender relations in a western society.

                I find them desirable for their N-count of zero that makes them much more for wife-worthy than an ex-rider of the carousel.

                The problem with this is that you don't have a guarantee that everything is hunky-dorey. The only thing that is a reliable indicator of a woman's inclinations is a high n-count she has achieved by herself (either by voluntarily slutting it up or by sleeping around with the wrong guys) - a low n-count may just be a sign that she didn't have the opportunity to sleep around.

                In fact, in countries with traditional sexual morals the whole thing becomes particularly obfuscating. In the West if a woman who has it in her to slut it up, you can count on her doing it (which in turn means that a woman with a low partner count pretty likely isn't one). Not so much in a country where she has to be afraid of her father or brothers offing her.

                Now this doesn't necessarily mean that she'll do what slutty women in the West are more likely to do - after all, divorcing is problematic and cheating is a death sentence. But that doesn't mean you'll be happy with her; in fact, I'd wager that a marriage to a woman who would have loved to sleep around a bit and experience other guys but didn't because she couldn't won't be a very satisfying one.

                [–]htbf -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Thanks, I never thought much about it the way you're framing it.

                a low n-count may just be a sign that she didn't have the opportunity to sleep around.

                What about a low n-count in a very hot girl ? The kind that makes heads turn when she enters a room ? Clearly such a girl would have lots of opportunity and the fact that she didn't go for it speaks in favour of her morals ?

                [–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                What about a low n-count in a very hot girl ? The kind that makes heads turn when she enters a room ?

                With "she didn't have the opportunity to sleep around" I am refering to "she wasn't allowed to". In a liberal society, even an unattractive woman can sleep around if she's willing to put out.

                [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

                [deleted]

                  [–]htbf -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  Good point, but I do think that this is one of those game-changing situations. It's very hard to differentiate between a friend, a FWB, a plate and a relationship with a girl you're not having sex with.

                  [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]htbf 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    That's the exact passage I quoted into my first message... But you haven't read it before answering, have you ?

                    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]htbf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I have no idea what you're trying to say.

                      I quoted that part and detailed a situation where it doesn't apply. You said his guide is not an absolute. I agreed and re-emphasised that the situation I'm describing is very different and requires a very different approach. To which you quoted the very same part as an answer when I already said that part doesn't apply to this situation (you can't next a virgin girl that is trying to keep her virginity when she's exactly the kind of girl you're looking for as a future wife).

                      So, in short, how is that an answer to this situation ?

                      [–][deleted] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Wow. Excellent post. Thank you.

                      [–]RedDeadlift -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Bravo. Well done. This is one of the best posts I have read on here recently. Bookmarked.

                      [–]youlovethisish -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Awesome guide.

                      I do have a question though - what about the stuff that happens before she becomes invested in you? How do you get a girl invested in you in the first place - at that coffee shop, for example?