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[–]GrumpyBearBank -27 points-26 points-25 points  (33 children)
There's 320,000,000+ Americans.
538 deaths or injuries to kids honestly seems like a reasonable number in a cost benefit analysis.
I bet far more kids die in a pool every year.
[–]muhfuhkuh 58 points59 points60 points  (8 children)
And, how many people died from Islamic terrorism in the US this year?
So, we shouldn't do anything about that either? That a rounding error?
[–]Whiggly [score hidden]  (0 children)
“
And, how many people died from Islamic terrorism in the US this year?
Very few.
“
So, we shouldn't do anything about that either?
Yep, pretty much. Certainly shouldn't be tossing civil rights under the bus for an illusion of security. That goes for both of these "problems".
[–]GrumpyBearBank 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Well one, we way overemphasize the potential of violence by Islamic terror on Americans? It's much more a problem in the middle east. Islamic terror is not an existential threat to the US.
And two, I'm more than happy to do reasonable things to promote a safe gun culture. We already have tort and criminal law, but let's teach gun safety in high school, let's make the concealed carry class mandatory in every state before you can open or conceal carry, and let's make background checks universal.
The problem is that a lot of people who are anti-gun don't want reasonable measures, they want gun ownership to not be a civil right. They mock and hate the people who own guns.
Three, I'm not going to be swayed by toddler deaths by guns when more children die by drowning. It's an intentionally gut wrenching stat that only works if you can't divide 538 by 320,000,000.
[–]sausage_ditka_bullsNew Jersey comment score below threshold-21 points-20 points-19 points  (5 children)
That's not what we are talking about here, it always best to take the issue head on rather than distract . You sound like a politician ;)
[–]muhfuhkuh 23 points24 points25 points  (4 children)
You're talking about doing nothing about gun violence. I say, let's extend that so we don't have to ban muslims just because statistically speaking a few bad apples don't spoil the bunch just like a few bad toddlers with guns don't spoil gun ownership.
That fair?
[–]sausage_ditka_bullsNew Jersey comment score below threshold-20 points-19 points-18 points  (3 children)
That's a good attempt but it's still not a valid comparison . The core logic - sure- but in reality people aren't things
[–]_durian_ 13 points14 points15 points  (0 children)
He makes a completely valid argument. You are trying to deflect because you don't have a counter argument.
[–]muhfuhkuh 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I had originally edited this in but I'll reply to you:
You know what, I'll bite. Okay, say you're the type of person that loves 2a and also wants us to do something about Islamic terror. Do you also agree to no-fly-list gun purchase bans? They're just such a small statistic in a freedom-benefit analysis (~80,000 names, 1,000 of which are US nationals). It's statistically insignificant. Sound good?
[–]sausage_ditka_bullsNew Jersey comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (0 children)
Giving up : Reddit has spoken . I concede My angle was no fly lists target people simply for being Muslim yet at the same time don't target Christians (Christians commit all kinds of crime). With gun laws the law is applied equally to every person . You can't separate gun vs non gun owners as it doesn't make sense. Maybe not articulating it bigly enough here .
[–]rk119Popcorn[S] 12 points13 points14 points  (10 children)
“
There's 320,000,000 million Americans.
538 honestly seems like a reasonable risk number.
I bet far more kids die in a pool every year.
How many children under the age of 12 living in a gun owning household?
We're talking about a specific subset of the population that cannot protect itself, but you can block that out if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Also, thats a lot of millions. Are you sure?
And do you know u/mosaicblacksun?
[–]mosaicblacksun 4 points5 points6 points  (5 children)
thats weird and kinda creepy. don't know who this person is. i just looked up U.S. population and it says 323,952,889 as of this year. just rounded it down.
[–]Ivanthecow 9 points10 points11 points  (3 children)
He's being pedantic. It's a criticism of putting the word million after an 8 digit number. Examples. 32 million = 32,000,000. Neither equals 32,000,000 million, because that would be 32,000,000,000,000. As I said, he was being pedantic.
[–]twodogsfighting [score hidden]  (1 child)
Its not really pedantry when your information is wrong by more than whole factors.
[–]Ivanthecow [score hidden]  (0 children)
It is pedantic when it's an obvious mistake of formatting. Everyone knew what he meant.
[–]mosaicblacksun 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
thanks, just learned something new.
[–]GrumpyBearBank 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I just thought you had a good point that I wanted to expand on.
[–]GrumpyBearBank 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
How many children? Not sure. But I think roughly a third of people live in households with guns.
You're right they can't protect themselves. Which is why we have tort law and crimes like child endangerment, to make adults be responsible.
And u/mosaicblacksun had a good point, I thought I would expand on it.
And I am more than willing to make gun safety a mandatory part of high school education.
[–]Whiggly [score hidden]  (2 children)
Maybe instead of just nakedly saying it's a small number, we should put these numbers in context. Lets take a look at the CDC data...
Notice how far down the list Firearms are. Yet I don't see people lining up to demand restrictions on all the things that cause more deaths.
[–]thegrayven [score hidden]  (1 child)
From a public safety standpoint, we should probably be taking peoples cars away???????
[–]Whiggly [score hidden]  (0 children)
Also pools. And household cleaners. And multi-level buildings.
[–]_durian_ 5 points6 points7 points  (10 children)
What are the benefits again?
[–]GrumpyBearBank 6 points7 points8 points  (8 children)
Hunting for meat, self-defense, deterrence, and sport.
What are the benefits of a backyard pool?
[–]_durian_ -3 points-2 points-1 points  (7 children)
Hunting and sporting are valid excuses. Self-defense and deterrence might be valid if there are only adults in the house but the risk of kids getting access to it is greater than risk of home invasion. In a lot of places there are safety rules for backyard pools such as mandatory fencing with child safety locks. Compromises could certainly be made to allow people to have guns and reduce the risk at the same time. Background checks and storage rules are examples. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
[–]elsparkodiablo -1 points0 points1 point  (5 children)
You are 100% wrong. There are an estimated 3.7 million household burglaries each year, of which 7% wind up resulting in someone being violently victimized. That breaks down to 266,560 people harmed by burglars each year, more than 700 a day. That doesn't go into rape, assault, murder or other violent crimes, just burglaries.
When the combined total of kids under 12 getting hurt or killed accidentally by guns is around 500 a year, and more people than that are getting messed up via burglary home invasions daily, it's clear you don't understand what you are talking about.
[–]_durian_ 2 points3 points4 points  (4 children)
So why is the US such a dangerous place compared to other western countries? Clearly guns isn't making it safer.
[–]elsparkodiablo 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
Because we have a lot of structural societal problems that contribute to violence that postage stamp sized western companies don't have?
Generational poverty. A shitty education system. Lack of basic social welfare. Lack of healthcare. A racist war on drugs that puts a huge number of people in prison for minor possession offenses. Lack of sick leave, maternal leave, living wages. The list is long.
We kill more people without guns than most countries do by all methods combined.
[–]_durian_ 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Thanks, I think you've put together the best argument I've heard. Will need to process this some more, but I'm back on the fence.
[–]elsparkodiablo 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
No worries. BTW, don't think I'm against gun control. After San Bernardino I put together a huge list of crap we could do to fix glaring issues with gun laws. I repost it every so often:
The gun control debate is largely dominated by people who feel there's something that MUST BE DONE but don't know anything about the subject. This is not a simple fix where you can "remove guns, problem solved" - that didn't work for drugs or alcohol and won't work with firearms either.
There's a lot of bad information and even worse science out there being used for political ends, and it frustrates me to see people who can give lectures on any manner of progressive topics turn into the left wing version of anti-abortion jihadists when it comes to gun control.
[–]Whiggly [score hidden]  (0 children)
“
So why is the US such a dangerous place compared to other western countries?
Good question.
“
Clearly guns isn't making it safer.
Maybe not. But even if you take every gun homicide out of our statistics, we still wind up with a homicide rate 2-3 times higher than other developed countries. Clearly there is some other, deeper problem.
[–]mokacoffay [score hidden]  (0 children)
Lmao. Since when are we making excuses for inalienable rights?
[–]co99950 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'd say about the same as telling people they can follow whatever religion they want.
[–]mimunto [score hidden]  (0 children)
To everybody downvoting this guy: Last year 35,092 people died from traffic accidents in the US. 538 deaths/injuries is pretty insignificant compared to this. That's just a matter of fact. And yes, the same logic applies to terrorism and I bet that most of you are already doing just that (especially when it comes to the TSA).
That being said, there are 11-12,000 deaths due to gun-related homicides/accidents. This is a completely different matter and a lot higher than other developed countries. We often hear these deaths would happen by other means without the guns, but then the US should have fewer of these kinds of deaths. That's not the case.
However, if the amount of casualties really is what matters I don't understand why there's so much political focus on the guns. As I just wrote, you're 3 times as likely to die in traffic and that rate is abnormally high too. For instance, you're almost twice as likely to die in traffic in the US compared to Canada. Focusing on bringing traffic related deaths down to Canadian levels would have much greater effect and not fuel the internal hostility that's going on.

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