(cache) Valve Sends Letter To Washington Gambling Commission Insisting That Their Actions Are Legitimate And Not Illegal : Steam


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[–]ClikeXI buy games like women buy shoes... 67ポイント68ポイント69ポイント 3時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]ardonite 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 1時間前 (5子コメント)

Valve's own response identifies the manner in which it profits from CSGO skin gambling websites.

Valve provides an API for third parties to exchange digital items.

Valve also provides a means for users to spend real-world money to buy second-hand digital items through their marketplace. Valve takes a transaction fee on these, so Valve profits in real world dollars from this.

Valve has multiple possible solutions they could enact to prevent this:

Valve could stop taking transaction fees (which they won't).
Valve could mark exchanged digital items as un-sellable (like achievement items).
Valve could prevent underage accounts from exchanging digital items for Steam Wallet funds.

There are surely other changes Valve could enact to prevent themselves profiting from underage CSGO skin gambling.

[–]mastercomshttp://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198046110893 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 52分前 (0子コメント)

[–]--Kai-- 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 29分前 (0子コメント)

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[–]NotBlaine 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's not gambling, but chest drops are all chance.

To the public at large, yes, no matter what you get, there is no fungible value.

I pay $0.99 for a TF2 key and I can get a baseball cap worth $0.11 or I can get a unique, killstreak item worth hundreds (I haven't played TF2 for a year, I'd give a solid example otherwise). The only thing that controls that is the fact that other players are willing to pay for that item.

Even without exchanging those items for real world cash, if I got $500 in steam wallet, you're damn right I'd consider that valuable. It's a chance for a potential gain.

Again, we're not disagreeing. I just think there is an element of chance.

If Steam Chests are gambling, then someone needs to shut Chuck E. Cheese down. Because I can win tickets to exchange for prizes and then I can take those prizes (if they're big enough) to a pawn shop and exchange it for real world cash.

[–]King_Jaahn 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 10分前 (0子コメント)

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[–]Electronic-Dad 149ポイント150ポイント151ポイント 5時間前* (68子コメント)

Two ways to look at it.

1) Valve is providing a currency, and facilitating illegal transactions, intentionally or not. That being said, it's like the argument that bitcoin should be abolished because of Silk Road and its successors (and thus some think it's only used that way). They've provided a platform, but it's out of their hands what people actually do with it. You wouldn't ban hard cash just because some people exchange it for illegal products and services.

2) Every time someone opens a CSGO case, they're gambling. I know this isn't the focus of the topic, but it's purely a game of chance and not skill, with no guaranteed outcome (except the guarantee of junk). I know that's enough the skirt the laws, but it's still frustrating to see Valve fight gambling and simultaneously promote and profit off their own version. Have they put their foot down? Yes, but only when they aren't directly gaining from it. Complete hypocrisy, and honestly, I expect better from them. There's nothing stopping them from selling skins directly much like they do in Dota 2 (which unfortunately also has gambling on top of it). Would it be as profitable? Of course not, but at least they wouldn't be polluting the industry, setting a low bar for other devs copying the format.

Imagine if Steam worked the same way. You're trying desperately to get Witcher 3, you've spent about $100 and all you've got is a bunch of copies of Bad Rats and Garfield Kart. Alternatively you can buy it for $200 on another website, off some guy who got lucky.

I know people don't like being told how to spend their money, but the CSGO and Dota communities really needs to reject this nonsense. Unfortunately, gamers in particular love gambling.

[–]unhi 108ポイント109ポイント110ポイント 4時間前 (25子コメント)

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[–]Electronic-Dad -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 4時間前* (3子コメント)

Allowing individual purchases for each set will create a specific bias and make it such that only certain heroes will ever get new sets because others will not sell.

Heroes' sets are already extremely biased and always have been. Just look at this chart from January. Sure, the older heroes have more sets, but that's not stopping Pudge and Axe from getting a new set every cycle compared to the rare Lich set.

In this case valve is playing the good guys and giving every artist the same cut whether the player gets the set they want or not.

I get the idea of promoting artists taking risks, and that's great, so I'm with you on that one, but I've also seen plenty of horrible sets in chests that I'd rather not support the artist of.

I don't see anything wrong with better sets earning more money. Reward talent and design, not getting lucky with a sub-par choice from Valve.

[–]icannotfindausername 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Electronic-Dad -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 4時間前 (14子コメント)

but it's out of their hands what people actually do with it

With Bitcoin the creators legitimately have no control over the system at all and who does what with it.

With Valve they have the ability to police the system that they created and trade ban the bot accounts of the gambling websites but they seem to have no interest in taking those actions. The amount of effort it takes to set up a gambling website compared to the amount of time it takes to trade ban the bot accounts of said websites is not even comparable. Once Valve starts actually enforcing their rules instead of virtue signalling with their empty threat C&D letters no one will put in the effort to create these new websites because there will be no profit to be made before their accounts are trade banned.

Valve have the ability to stop it, anyone who says otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

[–]Jherden 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 4時間前 (9子コメント)

Valve have the ability to stop it, anyone who says otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

I'd say it is intellectually dishonest to assume that steps haven't been taken to prevent bots, etc. It was already a pain in the ass to get stuff for my parents steam account because I had to first buy them enough shit and create enough 'activity' for them to reach a certain steam level, and only then could I gift them games.

Also, the time and effort to develop an intelligent algorithm that monitors user traffic and usage is pretty intense, even for small applications. There is a reason that google makes a SHITTON of money from user analytics. The development speed and effort for a monitor of sorts on bots to Steam's network, compared to the time and effort to set up wordpress blog are, as you stated yourself, 'not even comparable'.

There is a point that taking action against a small subset of the population begins to have a tremendous toll on the userbase. I can already recall the outcry when they imposed new regulations on how trades were done.

This isn't a black and white as everyone is making it look like.

[–]mithrasinvictus 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前* (1子コメント)

[–]Jherden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 4時間前 (6子コメント)

I'd say it is intellectually dishonest to assume that steps haven't been taken to prevent bots, etc.

Then where are the the continued trade bans to show for it and why are gambling websites still running rampant and slowly crawling their way back to popularity?

The development speed and effort for a monitor of sorts on bots to Steam's network, compared to the time and effort to set up wordpress blog are, as you stated yourself, 'not even comparable'.

I'm not even saying that they need to set up some sort of monitoring system, they just need to go to these websites, figure out which steam accounts are theirs, and trade ban them. Not very difficult and takes very little time.

Also, setting up a gambling website compared to a simple wordpress blog are not remotely equivalent.

There is a point that taking action against a small subset of the population begins to have a tremendous toll on the userbase.

This has nothing to do with the general userbase, it has to do with trade banning the bots of this gambling websites.

This isn't a black and white as everyone is making it look like.

We will have to disagree on that

[–]Jherden 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 3時間前 (5子コメント)

Then where are the the continued trade bans to show for it and why are gambling websites still running rampant and slowly crawling their way back to popularity?

Does Valve, or any other company for that matter, provide an active record of bans?

I'm not even saying that they need to set up some sort of monitoring system, they just need to go to these websites, figure out which steam accounts are theirs, and trade ban them. Not very difficult and takes very little time.

The cost in manpower for that approach to be even remotely effective is so high, that they might as well just shut down the business. They have measures in place to mitigate massive account creation, but that doesn't stop even a human from doing it repetitively. They could try ip bans, but that usually results in false flags because of dynamic flags, VPNs, etc. checks on new accounts as they are created is costly, even with a flagging system in place so that only accounts who have been flagged via algorithm are inspected.

Also, setting up a gambling website compared to a simple wordpress blog are not remotely equivalent.

I've yet to look at the gambling websites, but with as often as I hear of them popping up, they aren't building anything heavy duty, I assure you. Passwords are probably stored in plain text, and if people have sensitive account into stored in them, they are probably stored in plain text as well. The occasional site MIGHT have a bit more effort put into it. But once that site is made, if the developer has any common sense (and I assume they do), then redeployment of that same site on a different server or host, etc etc, becomes trivial. Also, domain names are hella cheap.

This has nothing to do with the general userbase, it has to do with trade banning the bots of this gambling websites.

So you mean to tell me that these sites display the bot account names in plain text on the sites front page? Do these sites have proper SEO, so that a crawler can nab these names? If so, then your solution is easy. At that point, I'd have to agree, "yeah, why don't they fix that?". If that is not the case, we are back to mitigating bot creation, which most certainly affects the userbase.

We will have to disagree on that

sure thing.

[+]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)

Does Valve, or any other company for that matter, provide an active record of bans?

It shows up on people's profile pages.

The cost in manpower for that approach to be even remotely effective is so high, that they might as well just shut down the business. They have measures in place to mitigate massive account creation, but that doesn't stop even a human from doing it repetitively. They could try ip bans, but that usually results in false flags because of dynamic flags, VPNs, etc. checks on new accounts as they are created is costly, even with a flagging system in place so that only accounts who have been flagged via algorithm are inspected.

This has nothing to do with scrutinizing newly made accounts

I've yet to look at the gambling websites, but with as often as I hear of them popping up, they aren't building anything heavy duty, I assure you. Passwords are probably stored in plain text, and if people have sensitive account into stored in them, they are probably stored in plain text as well.

These sites use OpenID to let you log in with your Steam account, these sites don't store any crazy personal information let alone passwords.

The occasional site MIGHT have a bit more effort put into it. But once that site is made, if the developer has any common sense (and I assume they do), then redeployment of that same site on a different server or host, etc etc, becomes trivial. Also, domain names are hella cheap.

This isn't about shutting down the actual website, you don't seem to understand that. It is about trade banning the bots (which have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of skins on them) when Valve makes it financially non-viable for these websites to operate then they will stop. They can't financially sustain thousands of dollars worth of losses on a constant basis.

So you mean to tell me that these sites display the bot account names in plain text on the sites front page? Do these sites have proper SEO, so that a crawler can nab these names? If so, then your solution is easy. At that point, I'd have to agree, "yeah, why don't they fix that?". If that is not the case, we are back to mitigating bot creation, which most certainly affects the userbase.

When you deposit or withdraw from one of these websites they have to reveal their accounts because you have to trade skins with them.

Honestly, your answers show you don't have a great understanding of how these websites work and how you can stop them.

[–]Jherden 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前* (3子コメント)

Honestly, your answers show you don't have a great understanding of how these websites work and how you can stop them.

I don't gamble. :)

EDIT: I gotta correct this, and clarify that I don't gamble online. Or even play poker. I buy a scratch off once in a blue moon. But I figured I should add this, lest I get lambasted for it.

It shows up on people's profile pages.

You've checked every single bot's page?

This has nothing to do with scrutinizing newly made accounts

New accounts can't do much of anything as it is. Looking at a brand new account and expecting to gain useful information is grasping at straws, at best. Unless their profile advertises themselves as a bot, I suppose.

These sites use OpenID to let you log in with your Steam account, these sites don't store any crazy personal information let alone passwords.

That means nothing. Lousy implementation of a technology can still leave vulnerabilities to peoples accounts. A tool is only as 'smart' as the user.

This isn't about shutting down the actual website, you don't seem to understand that. It is about trade banning the bots (which have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of skins on them) when Valve makes it financially non-viable for these websites to operate then they will stop. They can't financially sustain thousands of dollars worth of losses on a constant basis.

How many of these accounts contain content that they procured legally? If these accounts are getting banned, but it keeps making a comeback, then obviously there is profit still being made. People complain about exploited accounts all the time. Sometimes, your problem exists between the chair and the keyboard.

EDIT:

Honestly, your answers show you don't have a great understanding of how these websites work and how you can stop them.

I thought the point wasn't to stop the website, but the bots? But now I am being pedantic.

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)

I don't gamble. :)

I don't gamble on these websites either, but it's not hard to learn how they work before speaking about it.

You've checked every single bot's page?

I would have to have a list of every bot every website has used past and present so no of course not. That's a completely unrealistic proposition.

New accounts can't do much of anything as it is. Looking at a brand new account and expecting to gain useful information is grasping at straws, at best. Unless their profile advertises themselves as a bot, I suppose.

So why are you focusing on this? This has nothing to do with policing new accounts. This has to do with figuring out which accounts belong to X gambling website and trade banning them.

That means nothing. Lousy implementation of a technology can still leave vulnerabilities to peoples accounts. A tool is only as 'smart' as the user.

You don't seem to know how OpenID works, it doesn't give any sensitive information over to the 3rd party website that would allow them to compromise your account.

You are just giving blanket statements without understanding how these things functionally work.

How many of these accounts contain content that they procured legally?

Obviously none of them according to the law since they are operating illegal gambling websites.

If these accounts are getting banned, but it keeps making a comeback, then obviously there is profit still being made.

That's the point, they aren't getting banned, that's why they are coming back, and why profit is being made. If Valve was taking action then we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

People complain about exploited accounts all the time. Sometimes, your problem exists between the chair and the keyboard.

Don't know where hacked/exploited accounts come into this. Maybe you are trying to imply that these gambling weThat is a problem of the past at this point and because of Valve implementing so many trading restrictions which also negatively affected people that knew better than to get their accounts broken into.

I thought the point wasn't to stop the website, but the bots? But now I am being pedantic.

Okay, then I don't know why you were going on about how easy and cheap it is to move your website between different servers and domains.

if the developer has any common sense (and I assume they do), then redeployment of that same site on a different server or host, etc etc, becomes trivial. Also, domain names are hella cheap.

[–]Jherden 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

I would have to have a list of every bot every website has used past and present so no of course not. That's a completely unrealistic proposition.

This has to do with figuring out which accounts belong to X gambling website and trade banning them.

This pretty much sums up the argument as to why it's not cost effective to address it via manpower. It's also why you won't be seeing any results today, or anytime soon.

You don't seem to know how OpenID works, it doesn't give any sensitive information over to the 3rd party website that would allow them to compromise your account.

this and this sums up an example of exploitation on a platform using OpenId. Exploits don't just exist because people want them to. They are design flaws that, unfortunately, have serious repercussions. Sometimes, the extension might update to address the flaw, other times, the application will update to properly implement the extension, etc.

Don't know where hacked/exploited accounts come into this. That is a problem of the past at this point and because of Valve implementing so many trading restrictions which also negatively affected people that knew better than to get their accounts broken into.

Well, either items are coming from exploited accounts, or there is a lot of idling going on, or players supplying the bots with items. If that is the case, then trade ban the players interacting with them as well.

That's the point, they aren't getting banned, that's why they are coming back, and why profit is being made. If Valve was taking action then we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

If they aren't getting banned, then there wouldn't be a "coming back" phenomenon. They would still be here. A handful of examples doesn't mean bans aren't being passed out. Monitoring trades with the known accounts can also lead to bans for those participating in trading with them, which, in effect, helps stem the cash flow to them. It's easier to track activities of established accounts than it is of various new accounts.

So why are you focusing on this?

Obviously none of them since they are operating illegal gambling websites.

Okay, then I don't know why you were going on about how easy and cheap it is to move your website between different servers and domains

So it is Valve's responsibility to address the websites themselves, or is it not? Because that is why it keep being brought up. You bring up the websites a lot, and go on and on about the sites, but you make sure to point out that the bots are the real problem. It became a point of discussion, so it was discussed.

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 51分前* (0子コメント)

This pretty much sums up the argument as to why it's not cost effective to address it via manpower. It's also why you won't be seeing any results today, or anytime soon.

Not at all, I don't have access to Valves backend systems which have more detailed account information which could make it much easier to identify all of one website's bot accounts at once. Also it doesn't make sense for me to take hours out of my day to look at hundreds of accounts just to prove my point to another person on the internet. It's a ridiculous argument.

this and this sums up an example of exploitation on a platform using OpenId. Exploits don't just exist because people want them to. They are design flaws that, unfortunately, have serious repercussions. Sometimes, the extension might update to address the flaw, other times, the application will update to properly implement the extension, etc.

Alright, neat, even if someone found a bug with OpenID at some point they would need your password AND their 2FA to do anything nefarious on your Steam account. I don't know why you originally brought up the security of these websites anyhow, it's kind of irrelevant to this situation.

Well, either items are coming from exploited accounts, or there is a lot of idling going on, or players supplying the bots with items. If that is the case, then trade ban the players interacting with them as well.

The owners of these websites buy the skins from other Steam users for cash of some variety (bitcoin, paypal ,etc.) or websites like OPSkins or Bitskins.

If they aren't getting banned, then there wouldn't be a "coming back" phenomenon.

Some websites did allegedly have their bots banned back after Valve sent out the C&D letters and many other shut down out of fear. Now these sites have realized Valve's bluff and are slowly coming back. Hence why this "coming back phenomenon"

So it is Valve's responsibility to address the websites themselves, or is it not? Because that is why it keep being brought up. You bring up the websites a lot, and go on and on about the sites, but you make sure to point out that the bots are the real problem. It became a point of discussion, so it was discussed.

I think I found what you meant

With Valve they have the ability to police the system that they created and trade ban the bot accounts of the gambling websites but they seem to have no interest in taking those actions. The amount of effort it takes to set up a gambling website compared to the amount of time it takes to trade ban the bot accounts of said websites is not even comparable.

What I meant by that is that if Valve were to police their system it would de-incentivize new websites from popping up, part of the infrastructure required to run one of these gambling sites is a website, not just the bots, but without the bots the website can't work. The amount of work that has to go into these websites themselves and the systems that interact with the bot accounts are by no means small.

EDIT:

Monitoring trades with the known accounts can also lead to bans for those participating in trading with them, which, in effect, helps stem the cash flow to them. It's easier to track activities of established accounts than it is of various new accounts.

Banning people for using these gambling websites (therefore trading with their bots) would be a terrible move from Valve. A huge portion of the community would be banned and would cause massive backlash. Also like I've said multiple times, it isn't about actively monitoring every trade on Steam to try to find gambling website bots by their trading patterns. It is as simple as going to the website, attempting to deposit, getting a few accounts from that, then identifying more from there by account details like I.P. Addresses.

[–]Electronic-Dad 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

Bots, even the trading ones, aren't inherently a bad thing

Never said they were, we are talking about the automated accounts used specifically by the gambling websites to facilitate gambling.

and it surely doesn't take just the push of a button to ban 100 bots from a specific website. I imagine it would take a serious amount of 3rd party Steam login tracking, trade tracking, and account inspections to do it the right way, and you still run the risk of hitting the wrong accounts.

Don't know why people think this is such a complex process, you literally go to X gambling website. Hit deposit, get a trade window with one of their bot accounts then they could check that account's information and link it to other bot accounts. It's not like it's difficult to tell the difference between a gambling tradebot and a regular user's account.

For example here are two bots from a popular gambling site that I got by just attempting to deposit:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/lailis676

https://steamcommunity.com/id/najar23

[–]Kelossi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]gildedlink 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

2) Every time someone opens a CSGO case, they're gambling. I know this isn't the focus of the topic, but it's purely a game of chance and not skill, with no guaranteed outcome (except the guarantee of junk). I know that's enough the skirt the laws, but it's still frustrating to see Valve fight gambling and simultaneously promote and profit off their own version.

We're getting really close to splitting hairs at this point. Cases can be earned in gameplay and while keys are purchased, the skins you get are not a necessary component of the core game. An RNG doesn't automatically make something gambling just because you invite chance in. All the trash loot in Diablo II doesn't turn your gear grind into a form of gambling. Similarly, I don't see anyone outlawing trading card games just because booster packs hold value and involve chance. If you get a key and open a case ingame, a transaction directly between you and valve, you're guaranteed some item usable in the game whether you're satisfied with it or not. There are no empty cases in CSGO.

[–]Toribor 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]d0md0md 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (11子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 18分前 (2子コメント)

[–]d0md0md 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 15分前 (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex [スコア非表示] 2分前 (0子コメント)

[–]ardonite -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (7子コメント)

Wrong. It's not gambling because you can't exchange CSGO skins to real-world money without breaking the law. All skins are owned by Valve and licensed to players, therefore you can't sell them legally.

Not according to Valve's response, which describes exactly how a user can exchange CSGO skins for real-world money:

Valve enables the exchange of skins on steam in one of two ways:
through the Steam Marketplace where Steam customers offer Steam
Wallet funds to purchase a skin from other customers. ...
Valve makes receives a small transaction fee in Steam Wallet funds
for Marketplace transactions

So not only does Valve enables the exchange of CSGO skins for real-world money, Valve also profits from transactions.

[–]Jherden 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]ardonite 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]d0md0md 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 54分前* (0子コメント)

In the U.S. market, every steambuck that every user purchases for their account causes Valve to get paid U.S. Dollars.

Just because you can spend real-world money on Steam funds doesn't mean Steam funds can be valued in real money. They can't, because you can't legally sell them back to real money. This is very logical, they're not under your ownership.

When you buy Steam funds, you don't own the Steam funds you buy. When you spend $50 on Steam funds, you are in fact, LICENSING $50 Steam resources. And the ownership of these resources you get on your account remains with Valve.

Same thing with skins. When you purchase skin from Steam market, the license to that skin TRANSFERS from the seller to you (buyer). You still don't own the skin. Valve can shut down your Steam account at any given time, remove ALL items from your inventory, etc.

Since you can't redeem your won skins from the cases legally into real-world money, it isn't gambling at all. It's virtual gambling and it doesn't require Valve to obtain a gambling license from the Commission, and since it's not gambling, you also don't have to be 18+ to open these cases.

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]d0md0md 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前* (2子コメント)

[–]ardonite 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 47分前 (1子コメント)

I do understand what you mean by 'real-world money'.

I also understand that Valve makes 'real-world money' when new Steam Wallet funds are added to the system.

Given (a) Valve both provides the way for gambling sites to exchange digital items and provides a way for users to exchange digital items for Steam Wallet funds, (b) Valve takes a transaction fee from these exchanges, Valve makes 'real-world money' every time a digital gamble is then exchanged for Steam Wallet funds.

The user may have to do additional steps which Valve does not provide to launder their Steam Wallet funds into 'real-world money', but Valve profits from it nonetheless.

Also, Steam Wallet funds are presented to user in their country's currency. So Valve intends for users to perceive the value as 'real-world money' irregardless of whether Valve provides a means to convert it back.

Just because Valve makes up words like Steam Wallet and forcing users to do additional work to transact CSGO skin gambling into 'real-world money' does not preclude Valve from directly profiting in 'real-world money' from the CSGO skin gambling.

[–]d0md0md -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 35分前* (0子コメント)

(a) Valve both provides the way for gambling sites to exchange digital items and provides a way for users to exchange digital items for Steam Wallet funds

Yes. They provide a platform where people can pursue illegal gambling. They're still not responsible for this illegal activity. Valve has already stated that they've taken action against these gambling sites. They've banned Steam accounts that are involved in illegal gambling and they've asked these gambling sites to remove Steam API from their site, even threatening to take more legal action if the sites refuse to follow these requirements. Valve said that they're ready to do co-operation with the Gambling Commission to reduce the effect of illegal gambling.

Whether you can exchange digital items (CSGO etc.) for Steam wallet funds or not is irrelevant, because Steam wallet funds are still not money. A chance to win Steam wallet funds by spending Steam wallet funds is not gambling the way it's stated in the law.

(b) Valve takes a transaction fee from these exchanges, Valve makes 'real-world money' every time a digital gamble is then exchanged for Steam Wallet funds.

Yes. Valve takes a transaction fee for every Steam market transaction, no matter how skins are obtained, legally or illegally. Still it doesn't mean Valve is the lawbreaker here. Steam users have agreed to follow the laws and use Steam the way Valve has given them permission to use it, if they go and exceed those permissions then they're the troublemakers here, not Valve.

The user may have to do additional steps which Valve does not provide to launder their Steam Wallet funds into 'real-world money', but Valve profits from it nonetheless.

The user needs to do illegal things in order to change Steam wallet funds into 'real-world money', because when they sell Steam wallet funds into real money they're selling something they don't own. I repeat, all Steam wallet funds are owned by Valve and licensed to Steam users. If you sell these resources, you're stealing from Valve and they are legally allowed to take action against you. Whether they do or not is irrelevant, because it still isn't legal.

Also, Steam Wallet funds are presented to user in their country's currency. So Valve intends for users to perceive the value as 'real-world money' irregardless of whether Valve provides a means to convert it back.

What difference would 1000 Steam funds = $10 make then? When you know 1K funds equal $10? Your claim is one of the stupidest things I've ever read - and I'm not trying to be offensive here, though.

Just because Valve makes up words like Steam Wallet and forcing users to do additional work to transact CSGO skin gambling into 'real-world money' does not preclude Valve from directly profiting in 'real-world money' from the CSGO skin gambling.

Valve doesn't "make up" words. They've clearly said that they own all the skins. If you sell them for real money, you break the law. Period. Valve has taken action against some real-world transactions out there, however; it's not easy for them to prove these transactions. Still it's illegal.

You don't have to do "additional work" to transfer CSGO skins in to real-world money. You literally have to BREAK THE LAW to do that.

[–]RogueRAZR 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前* (4子コメント)

2) Every time someone opens a CSGO case, they're gambling.

This is actually something I haven't thought of. I work for a company that runs arcades and bowling for a number of locations including one in Washington State. In the state of Washington, any arcade games which are purchased MUST first be approved by the state gambling commission. Basically they place bans on any arcade game which is not skill based or is not at least influenced by the player. For example, arcade games that would be allowed are games that have skill stop functionality, or where the player directly influences the outcome in some way such as rotating a wheel moving a joystick ect. Games that are not allowed are anything chance based, this includes any game which has an element of random chance. An example would be like a game called colorama where a table spins and a ball rolls around inside (think a silly roulette type game). Another example are games like Key master which is rigged with a % chance if winning rather than being completely skill based (there was a huge lawsuit involving this game in particular and Sega lost).

Anyway my point is that Valve may very well be violating Washington state law simply for having a chance based skin service in general.

Something to think about at least.

[–]ShazbotSimulator2012 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Jherden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]RogueRAZR 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 47分前 (0子コメント)

True, I am simply stating an example on what the gambling commission in Washington has enforced in the past and it could be used against Valve. Whether or not the policy is good or bad is a different matter.

The public ultimately creates these problems. In the arcade industry, people complained about games not being skill based and therefore is considered gambling. So, on the complainers behalf, we are no longer allowed to operate any chance based games anymore.

Now the gambling commission has either gotten complaints or simply see similarities between Valve's CSGO box system and are trying to enforce similar rules. Depending on how far the State of Washington wants to go, a group of people will likely define the difference between Valve's items and what currently falls under their jurisdiction in court.

[–]ShazbotSimulator2012 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]argv_minus_one -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]hoboninjahttps://steam.pm/4laji 31ポイント32ポイント33ポイント 4時間前 (17子コメント)

[–]The_MAZZTer 27ポイント28ポイント29ポイント 3時間前 (10子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12分前 (0子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]PresidentoftheSun -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]Jherden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

yes, I know. And and there isn't a single good outcome to this scenario that doesn't negatively affect the industry and have zero repercussions for these online gambling dens. It's as easy as asking "how old are you?" and then lying. There isn't much to regulate on that aside from those regulations stepping into the household.

If the issue is that Mrs. May learns that little billy has been gambling online, quiet frankly, that is an issue that needs to stay in the household. I won't blame Mrs. May for Billy's actions, because kids are going to do things because they don't know better. But it's her(more specifically, any of the child's parents) responsibility as a parent to teach those rules to her child. Negligence to do so is a failure on her part. If the lesson doesn't stick, then measures to prevent the actions within the household, once again, fall to the parent.

There is literally no good ruling that could come from this. Either the household suffers, the industry suffers, or both suffer.

[–]NinjaDinoCornShark 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ardonite 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前* (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex [スコア非表示] 9分前 (0子コメント)

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[–]TheG-What 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 5時間前* (65子コメント)

[–]Jherden 36ポイント37ポイント38ポイント 5時間前* (39子コメント)

[+][削除されました] 5時間前 (17子コメント)

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[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Jherden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 4時間前 (20子コメント)

[–]Jherden 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 4時間前 (5子コメント)

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[–]Jherden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

It really isn't Valve's job to do such We don't need corporate entities policing other people them choosing not to pursue legal action is their own prerogative

I agree a bit, but policing the system through Valve is the only real effective way. They own the system and they have control over it. Trying to shut all of these websites down one by one through the legal system takes an incredible amount of effort, time, and is costly, not to mention it's probably ineffective for websites outside of the U.S. (not a legal expert by any means but it seems that's how it goes). It makes no sense to do so when you can get Valve to trade ban the bot accounts of these websites with very minimal effort and effectively render them inoperable. Valve wouldn't have to take legal action themselves to shut these sites down.

and probably because they have nothing to gain from it

Frankly it tarnishes their reputation by them doing nothing about it and having government entities knocking on their door to try to force their hand into acting.

Also it would be good PR for them to shut down these sites, as we saw with the C&D letters, people were fairly happy.

So yes, they have something to gain, as well as something to lose.

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]threepio 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 4時間前 (13子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (12子コメント)

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[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前* (10子コメント)

[–]threepio 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前* (0子コメント)

At what point does it cease to be their digital item and become something that I own? Aren't I liable for what I do with it at that point?

Interesting point.

According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement section 3D

You also understand and acknowledge that Subscriptions traded, sold or purchased in any Subscription Marketplace are license rights, that you have no ownership interest in such Subscriptions, and that Valve does not recognize any transfers of Subscriptions (including transfers by operation of law) that are made outside of Steam.

So it is technically Valve property at all times.

I think we're asking Valve to take on too much responsibility

It's not a whole lot of work that they need to do to keep these gambling websites out considering the size of company that they are. (Financially not employee wise) They always do the minimum required which is starting to catch up to them legally. If they don't have enough manpower maybe they need to hire one or multiple people to specifically deal with this problem. Would be a lot less trouble than the legal battles that may come their way.

For the record I'm not down voting you; I'm up-voting you. Thanks for being willing to chat about it.

Thanks for not being like the others :P

[–]onebit 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前* (7子コメント)

[–]Jherden 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)

They can facilitate a better user analytic, and they can see what is being traded. I doubt that transactions are not recorded. The impossible part isn't that it can't be done, but that results are expected immediately.

The problem comes from not knowing who the bots exactly are, and who the middlemen are, etc etc.

As for legal implications, whether it is right or wrong, I would say that they have an ethical obligation to fight the claim, only on the grounds that we are dealing with a rehash of what has been done before but in electronic form. By giving in to the demands to cease allowing skins to be tradeable, they are setting precedent for future action against other companies. If regulation is to be had, it should come through due process, and not just arbitrary claims of what the new rules in town are.

[–]onebit 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 59分前 (1子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 34分前 (0子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 43分前 (2子コメント)

[–]onebit 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 37分前 (1子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]The_MAZZTer 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]The_MAZZTer 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Bonsai99https://steam.pm/12cxex -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

Valve doesn't have a magic off switch they can just press for those sites.

Yes they do, trade ban their accounts.

And as for the bots, the site can easily make new ones, or Valve hasn't figured out how to detect them.

Sure they can easily make new accounts but they can't easily replace the thousands of dollars worth of items on their trade banned bots. Valve just needs to keep banning their accounts to the point where it's not financially viable to operate one of these gambling sites.

Valve hasn't figured out how to detect them.

It's not about "Detecting" them. You go to X gambling website and try to deposit items and it will open up a trade offer window with one of their bots, you can either keep repeating this to get different bots or if you are Valve you obviously have more detailed information about the accounts such as I.P. addresses to more easily get the complete list of accounts that X website uses.

[–]Ragnagord 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]Gamerz5GT スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 5時間前 (9子コメント)

[–]Sovex66 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 4時間前 (8子コメント)

[+]Gamerz5GT スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 4時間前 (7子コメント)

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[–]cassiopei -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Sovex66 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

There rules on Steam & Item trade & website for gambling, if you check "i have read and agree to the terms of use and privacy policy" how you can blame the compagny ?

Personnaly i'm a huge fan of gambling, playing almost every day PokerStar and Winamax, tried only one time with real money but never put all my money because my parents told me the value of money ?

Made some steam bot and also my own poker game in C# for fun (Look for Tower Unite on steam for gambling :)

About captcha and restrict API got really negative impact on the playerbase

Now if you want to buy a game for a friend, buy and hold it 15 day, trade, enter captcha, wait accept email and on the mobile app and wait another 7 day for trade hold

This can extend to 1 month to trade a simple steam card and its really annoying

[–]cassiopei 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

There rules on Steam & Item trade & website for gambling, if you check "i have read and agree to the terms of use and privacy policy" how you can blame the compagny

There's nothing mentioned in the Steam ToS concerning gambling, which is almost everywhere regulated or illegal, especially to minors. The ToS also addresses people as young as thirteen years old.

At the same time the company in the past supported automated trading outside of there ecosystem, sites that were offering betting/gambling services. This is in contrast what their letter to the WGC states.

Personnaly i'm a huge fan of gambling, playing almost every day PokerStar and Winamax, tried only one time with real money but never put all my money because my parents told me the value of money ?

Do whatever you want to do with your own money and if you have reached the legal age to gamble, but your anecdotal example that

your parents teached you the value of money
you never put all your money in the bet

doesn't change the fact that there are minors that steal their parents money and put it all on the table and then go places to win this money back, because they have no f* idea what they are doing. What has Steam done to prevent this in the past?

Now if you want to buy a game for a friend, buy and hold it 15 day, trade, enter captcha, wait accept email and on the mobile app and wait another 7 day for trade hold

I buy the game, gift it through Steam and it's immediately in his account. What did I miss?

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LMAO if Valve moves to/incorporates in Nevada over this.

Frankly they already should have. Washington is stupid. That's why I based my business in Oregon and California. Washington legislature is a joke, as are the politicians.

Then I view this as consumer rights. Valve doesn't go far enough. We should be able to trade and sell games or anything else. That's a right we don't enjoy.

You can make an argument for the state because Valve only allows gambling-like transactions. If I could sell my copy of Metro, the point would be moot how I do it.

Valve's greed in not giving us resale rights has led to this overreach.

If you think about it, it would be like Washington suing $20 bills being used at Tulalip casino. You can use money for whatever you like. The state is prosecuting a means of commerce, which is nonsense. Except it's not a means of commerce, it's a system ripe for gambling abuse.

Sorry Steam fans, but it's their reasoning.

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