全 147 件のコメント

[–]colonoscopius 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

stop the presses!: jews didn't kill jesus, either.

[–]Dabee625 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Historical revisionism and denial is never productive. The Irgun and Lehi did some truly reprehensible things. That being said, Jordan conducted extensive ethnic cleansing of their own as did other countries in the ME. Nobody's perfect.

[–]1_plus_e_to_the_j_pi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That may be so, but it doesn't diminish the fact that as you said, Irgun and Lehi did reprehensible things. I get the feeling that too many Israelis hide from this fact. We should embrace the fact that our history is imperfect. This whole "we offered them half the land and they turned it down" sort of narrative doesn't help anyone but Israeli egos.

[–]dmzr -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

What? Irgun and Lehi were the only ones who actually fought the British. They never deliberately killed civilians.

[–]cagcagIsrael 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You mean, besides all those times when Etzel blew up Arab markets?

[–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No they did deliberately kill civilians.

[–]Sokaiiand to that i say תודה -11ポイント-10ポイント  (67子コメント)

This seems a bit dishonest, even though it's true that a lot did flee on there own whim, it is also true that ethnic cleansing did occur - trying to hide the fact that it didn't isn't going to help us.

Events like Deir Yassin and towns being cleared then not allowing them to return make it hard to deny accusations like this.

[–]Gewdgawddamn 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think Benny Morris is being dishonest. I think he's genuine since no one really explains properly why what happened in 1948 counts as ethnic cleansing and being Israel's responsibility. Personally not even sure where I fall on that discussion.

It actually reads as cherry picking when you get into the details. Morris has long been consistent on A) Israel did not have an overall policy of expulsion when securing towns and areas, but it did occur and boils down to the "bad apples" proverb and B) Israel did have an overall policy of denying the return of refugees, but still there were occasions when they were allowed with government approval.

And that's without actually mentioning the Jews in Arab countries before and after the War of Independence. Which only invites even more cherry picking to support positions and highlight hypocrisies.

[–]1_plus_e_to_the_j_pi -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Isn't the expression "a few bad apples spoils the barrel?"

I don't argue against any of the historical statements you say. I just don't think it should be an either/or argument i.e. We shouldn't have to decide whether or not villages were cleared or whether Israel has a right to exist.

The only correct way to combine these sorts of statements is to say "Yes, ethnic cleansing happened, and, like all recognized and well-established countries, Israel has a right to exist."

Too many fall into the trap of trying to argue for Israel's right to existence by saying its Jewish founders were angelic. We should be able to say that the questioning of modern day Israel's existence is bollocks in it of itself and not resort to questionable arguments about why it should have a right to exist.

[–]Gewdgawddamn 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't the expression "a few bad apples spoils the barrel?"

Yes. Though this isn't to say the metaphorical barrel is Israel as a whole, as some do. I think it more applies to the Dalet Plan, which was the order to units to do the actual securing of towns and areas. But if I remember correctly it was a bit ambiguous which is why Arabs were expelled from some areas but not others.

The only correct way to combine these sorts of statements is to say "Yes, ethnic cleansing happened, and, like all recognized and well-established countries, Israel has a right to exist." Too many fall into the trap of trying to argue for Israel's right to existence by saying its Jewish founders were angelic. We should be able to say that the questioning of modern day Israel's existence is bollocks in it of itself and not resort to questionable arguments about why it should have a right to exist.

This thread now has 80+ replies. Last night when I left it topped off at 20. I don't know if this is the tone that has been taken since last night aside from the one guy flipping out but I will acknowledge that yeah this happens a lot and across multiple topics.

[–]Nechama 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

Have you read his book? Benny Morris chronicled events like Deir Yassin in much detail. The reason we know about plan Dalet is because of him. He pieced together countless numbers of classified and unclassified communications, recently released, to form as accurate a history as he could.

The mistake Anti-Semitic leftists do, is to take his work out of context. They do it on purpose because they have a Palestinian narrative to sell, and they hate Jews.

He doesn't detail a list of isolated events, he pieces together The Who, what, how and why. Those that promote the incorrect Palestinian narrative take events out of context and ignore the story.

People have used his work to back the claim of ethnic cleansing. I've seen it here on this subreddit many times. The common denominator is a lack of context. If you actually read the book, and pay attention rather than looking for Anti-Israel gotcha points, then it becomes that much more apparent.

If you want to know The Who, what, why and how of Deir Yassin, then read the book. He tackles it in detail. It isn't Deir Yassin that is an example of ethnic cleansing, it's an example of a massacre. And it was not representative of Israeli action or policy, no matter what Anti-Semites would have you believe.

Many of the villages that were cleared were done so because they were attacking supply convoys and starving out Jewish towns, Jerusalem included. Being on the defensive was not working well and the IDF would have lost the war with those tactics.

We all know what would have happened if they lost the war.

So did the Israelis.

And so they went on the offensive, the war started to turn around when they cleared villages that were responsible for attacking supply convoys. This was all before May of 1948. The other Arab countries hadn't even attacked yet. In most situations it was purely strategic, it was a life or death situation.

Why not let them come back? They didn't want the country to implode and invite another war. No peace treaties were signed with all the other countries that people like to forget participated, remember?

Life or death. Is it ethnic cleansing in that context? No. and that's why he says that only certain towns (lod and ramle) which were not representative despite what Ari shavit would have you believe, would fall under that definition, because he deemed the clearing unnecessary.

I highly recommend you read 1948.

/u/tayaravaknin fact check?

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Morris doesn't deny that ethnic cleansing occurred, only that Israel didn't do it. He admits that it occurred on a non-state-sponsored scale. That's the only real distinction that matters here.

[–]Montoglia -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don’t accept the definition “ethnic cleansing” for what the Jews in prestate Israel did in 1948. (If you consider Lod and Ramle, maybe we can talk about partial ethnic cleansing.) And certainly there was no ethnic cleansing that was “one of the most successful of the 20th century,” as Blatman puts it. On the contrary.

That sounds awfully a lot like flat-out denial.

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only if you ignore that he's talking about pre-state Israel's incidents, when expulsions were the cause of 2% of Palestinian refugees by IDF estimates.

In other interviews he has said:

Questioner: They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

Morris: "There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide – the annihilation of your people – I prefer ethnic cleansing.”

[–]Montoglia -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

And I was referring to this article in particular. I'm well aware of Morris's mental contortions to justify Israel's war crimes.

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm well aware that you can't address what I or he said and are just now throwing insults to ignore how law works.

[–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/tayaravaknin [+1062] fact check?

lol. We need TayaraBot.

!TayaraBot FACTCHECK: 1948

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're not responding to the piece. The accusation is that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing. Israel didn't, even if it happened in isolated incidents.

Deir Yassin was an Irgun massacre, not a policy of Israel or the Haganah. The lack of return is not ethnic cleansing as a policy, ethnic cleansing is expelling to change demographics, and that was never Israeli policy. Israeli policy never had that intent or goal, it had the intent of preventing a genocide and placing the burden fairly on those who started the war.

[–]dmzr 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I advise you to read Uri Milstein's book about the "Deir Yassin massacre" lie.

[–]colonoscopius -11ポイント-10ポイント  (54子コメント)

why do antisemites always resort to lying?

[–]Sokaiiand to that i say תודה 9ポイント10ポイント  (26子コメント)

I am a Zionist Jew. Even in some cases pro-settlement. So I would be interested to know how I am a lying anti-semite just because I think that when we do something wrong we should still be held accountable.

[–]colonoscopius -9ポイント-8ポイント  (25子コメント)

Stop repeating antisemitic lies for start.

[–]Sokaiiand to that i say תודה 6ポイント7ポイント  (24子コメント)

1) Did Deir Yassin massacre take place?

2) Were Arabs pushed out of towns and then not allowed to return?

3) If yes to 1&2, is this ethnic cleansing?

[–]dmzr 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was no massacre. Even the West Jerusalem intelligence commander Mordechai Gichon, (who was dispatched to Deir Yassin by the Jerusalem Hagannah commander in order to check what was going on there) explicitly said that there was no massacre. Meir Pa'il, the commander of the "Avraham" unit that was responsible for the Saison, came to Gichon on Saturday and told him "Motke, what kind of a report did you write? Write a Zionist report". And what is a "Zionist report"? A report where Irgun and Lehi are murderers of women and children. The bottom line is this: the left didn't want Irgun to join the to-be-formed IDF like the Palmach, and they didn't want to see Begin in the first government of Ben Gurion.

[–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Deir Yassin was a battle with a lot of civilian casualties that was used by Arab propagandists then and now to push the evil Israe narrative.

[–]depressed333Israel 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

3) If yes to 1&2, is this ethnic cleansing?

No, as there were no systematic policy in place enforced in doing so. The accepted version among historians are fleeing due to a) war b) requests by the arab leaders to do so (they assumed the destruction of Israel thus they asked them to leave temporarily) c) arab propoganda exaggerating massacres such as deir yassin thus provoking more waves.

It's important to note that the arab population has multiplied by x times since 48'.

[–]Montoglia -5ポイント-4ポイント  (17子コメント)

Morris himself disproved most of those points. As he concluded, most of the Palestinian exodus was directly tied to military actions from Zionist forces, either attacks on villages or outright expulsions. It's extremely cynical to blame Palestinians for their victimization.

[–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Morris himself disproved most of those points

Everything he just said is something Morris agrees with.

As he concluded, most of the Palestinian exodus was directly tied to military actions from Zionist forces

Otherwise known as "war", one started by Arab forces, and the Arabs fled in advance of military actions nearby in that war. Which is something the user above said when he said, "a) war".

either attacks on villages or outright expulsions

Most fled due to attacks nearby. Expulsions were definitely less than half of the total.

It's extremely cynical to blame Palestinians for their victimization

What's "cynical" is to claim Palestinians were "victimized" in a war started by Palestinians when the alternative was a genocide of Jews.

Of course, you leave out that statement by Morris, because you cherrypick his words instead.

[–]depressed333Israel 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

no one with a mind and a brain believes what you said

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]Montoglia -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Right, only 80% of them were expelled. What kind of shoddy ethnic cleansing is that?

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 0ポイント1ポイント  (26子コメント)

    GUYS THIS GUY SAID SOMETHING AGAINST ISRAEL HES ANTI SEMITIC! /s

    fuck off mate its possible to be anti israel or say something that is against israel without being anti semitic, im a pro palestinian anti-zionist israeli jew maybe im also anti semitic?

    [–]colonoscopius 5ポイント6ポイント  (17子コメント)

    yes you are.

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 0ポイント1ポイント  (16子コメント)

    people like you bring a lot of shame to Israelis and Israel and youre the reason that a lot of people are afraid of criticising Israel without being labeled as antisemitic.

    [–]colonoscopius -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

    yep, we give a lot of fuck about what antisemites think of us :D

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya -1ポイント0ポイント  (14子コメント)

    I hope to god youre trolling because if youre not then youre a very ignorant person who does not support people having different opinions than yours, I hope the day will come when most Israelis will realize that its possible to be anti Israel without being anti semitic.

    [–]Computer_Name 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

    Unless you don't believe in the entire concept of nation-states, or you have a theological objection to Israel's existence prior to the arrival of the Moshiach, I have a very difficult time understanding.

    How is it not antisemitic to believe Jews shouldn't exert the right all peoples possess, the right of self-determination.

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Unless you don't believe in the entire concept of nation-states, or you have a theological objection to Israel's existence prior to the arrival of the Moshiach, I have a very difficult time understanding.

    I dont like the idea of countries at all I just think its another tool to divide people and it causes unnecessary conflict and wars just like religion, race and whatnot BUT because countries do exist I believe they should be based upon same ideology and political goals rather than religion or ethnicity.

    How is it not antisemitic to believe Jews shouldn't exert the right all peoples possess, the right of self-determination

    Because unlike most jews i dont see jewish people as a nation but rather as a religion there are Arab jews, (who for some unknown reason has got the whole world to call them "mizrahim") there are russian jews, there are european jews and so on, just like there are European christians, African christians and whatnot. and even if I do think that the jews need a state (which I dont) I just dont like the way it was created (basically kicking shitload of Arabs out of their homes and then denying it) and the way its headed, im sorry to say this but Israel is looking more and more like iran and afghanistan its becoming more religous every year with a lot of religous laws that that affect even people who dont believe (like me) and tbh its completely against what Herzel wanted Israel to be, he wanted Israel to be completely secular and he didnt even want a Jewish state he wanted state for the jews (which is a huge difference) and if he saw how israel looks today he'd be ashamed.

    [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Why don't you think that Jews are a nation? Doesn't it still make you anti-semitic to admit that even though the vast majority of Jews believe they are a nation and should observe their right to self determination, you for some reason don't?

    Would you call me anti-Palestinian if I said "even though most Palestinians believe they are a nation, I don't believe they are and thus should not have a right to self determination." Isn't that pretty racist? How is your statement any different?

    Also, don't defend the fact that you are anti-semitic by saying you are Jewish, when you are in fact not Jewish.

    [–]Montoglia -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

    What many people object to, though, is that this right of self-determination was exercised on a territory with a pre-existing population, which was in turn denied of that very right so Jews from all over the world could exercise it. It's not a denial of Jewish rights, but rather a defense of Palestinian ones.

    [–]tayaravakninLazy, Underpaid Zionist Shill 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

    What many people object to, though, is that this right of self-determination was exercised on a territory with a pre-existing population

    Which is completely irrelevant. Claiming "only 'natives' get rights" is racism.

    which was in turn denied of that very right so Jews from all over the world could exercise it

    Nope. They were not denied the opportunity to get that right, they chose war and as such had that right abridged. As most losers who start wars do.

    It's not a denial of Jewish rights, but rather a defense of Palestinian ones

    False. Palestinians could have had it at any point. They chose war. They tried to deny Jews that right. They can't now complain about the consequences of their failure as if they didn't and don't have the opportunity to gain that right if they just accepted/accept peace.

    [–]BrahmsAllDay 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

    In another thread someone mentioned that unlike Germany, the US did not attempt genocide. Your response? "Found the jew". You are an anti-Semite as every "anti-Zionist" is ultimately revealed to be. But you're not a Jew, not by your own definition, and not by anyone else's. That must be a relief for you.

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Holy shit man did you really think i was serious? just so you know not only im a jew im also an israeli and im also a soldier in the IDF ifu actually think that comment was in anyway serious u need to check yourwself and btw i just responded to a guy who fucking whined about the holocaust becasue they decided to host a esports event in germany that guy was a tool and so are you. Israelis need to get out of this mindset that every anti zionist is a also anti semitic while alot of them are alot of them are also aren't (like me) and if dug up my posts so much to get to taht comment u must have seen my commetns in hebrew i find it hard to believe that someone who is not jewish or israeli will speak hebrew.

    [–]BrahmsAllDay 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Holy shit man did you really think i was serious?

    You used a phrase commonly used by storm-front types without any context to indicate any irony or sarcasm. You're an anti-Semite.

    just so you know not only im a jew

    By your definition, "Jewish" is not an indication of ethnicity or people-hood, but rather a religion. So, do you practice Judaism?

    im also an israeli

    So is Hanin Zoabi. It's really not saying much.

    im also a soldier in the IDF

    I wish for this reason that service wasn't mandatory. Soldiers identifying with the enemies of the Jewish people and of the Jewish state are a threat to our security and our nation.

    that guy was a tool and so are you

    I don't take the ramblings of bigots and racists to heart..you can say whatever you want.

    Israelis need to get out of this mindset that every anti zionist is a also anti semitic while alot of them are alot of them are also aren't (like me)

    Funny how every time someone claims to be "just" an anti-Zionist, it is revealed, as it has been with you, that they are blatant anti-Semites as well.

    if dug up my posts so much

    I didn't dig up your posts so much. I sorted by controversial and it was on the first page.

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You used a phrase commonly used by storm-front types without any context to indicate any irony or sarcasm. You're an anti-Semite.

    that guy was an asshat bitching about the holocaust becasue they hosted an event in germany jsut becasue u cant detect sarcasam dosent make me anti semitic no matter how many times you say it, if u actually looked up the conext of that comment instead of just quoting it and call me an anti semitic maybe you wouldv realized i aint one

    By your definition, "Jewish" is not an indication of ethnicity or people-hood, but rather a religion. So, do you practice Judaism?

    no I dont practice judaism and im not ashamed to admit that I dont identify myself as a jew (I do identify as in Israeli though), my name is because I liked it and I guess most people will see me as a jew

    I wish for this reason that service wasn't mandatory. Soldiers identifying with the enemies of the Jewish people and of the Jewish state are a threat to our security and our nation.

    i iwsh the service was not mandatory for different reasons so i partly agree with you, and youre right u caught me im a spy for the PA

    I don't take the ramblings of bigots and racists to heart..you can say whatever you want. youre pathetic sry to say this if u actually think that every anti zionist is anti semitic then youre very ignorant

    Funny how every time someone claims to be "just" an anti-Zionist, it is revealed, as it has been with you, that they are blatant anti-Semites as well.

    holy shit u actually think that because of fucking 1 sarcastic comment i made im anti semitic thats actually terrifying how paranoid you are u need serious help.

    I didn't dig up your posts so much. I sorted by controversial and it was on the first page.

    key words "so much"

    [–]BrahmsAllDay 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    no i dont practice judaism and im not ashamed to admit that i dont identify myself as a jew, my name is because i liked it and i guess most people will see me as a jew

    So you're not a Jew, unlike what you said before. Don't worry though I don't see you as a Jew and I don't think too many other people would either.

    and youre right u caught me im a spy for the PA

    I would be shocked not at all if this were true.

    holy shit u actually think that because of fucking 1 sarcastic comment i made im anti semitic thats actually terrifying how paranoid you are u need serious help.

    I found one storm-front comment on the first page of your comments. I didn't need to look further, and I have no desire to.

    [–]TheJewishHammerHerzliya 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    So you're not a Jew, unlike what you said before. Don't worry though I don't see you as a Jew and I don't think too many other people would either.

    Youre saying it like its a bad thing to not be jewish, and again i call myself a jew becasue most people will see me as a jew (well most rabbis for that matter)...... I honestly dont give afuck if u dont see me as a jew becasue again its not a bad thing to not be jewish

    I would be shocked not at all if this were true.

    Yea man u got me im a spy quick call the mossad

    I found one storm-front comment on the first page of your comments. I didn't need to look further, and I have no desire to.

    that actaully very ignorant of you to just make assumptions just becasue of one incident (that again was sarcastic to begin with)

    I seriously think youre either very stupid or very very young becsaue so far u showed me that you actually believe everything without actual facts or researching the subject which is very narrow minded of you. well this is the end i guess im not gonna have a conversation with some one who screams anti semitic at anyone that says something remotely anti Israel (i mean ffs u ctually think im a spy how old are you man?)

    [–]BrahmsAllDay -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I honestly dont give afuck if u dont see me as a jew becasue again its not a bad thing to not be jewish

    Then don't claim to be Jewish and pretend that you would be absolved of your bigotry thereby. The "I can't be anti-semitic because I'm a Jew" argument is invalid for anyone who makes it, but doubly so for someone who isn't even a Jew!

    Yea man u got me im a spy quick call the mossad

    Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you, for example, sent sensitive information about operations to Israel's enemies. I'd actually be surprised if you didn't.

    that actaully very ignorant of you to just make assumptions just becasue of one incident

    Hilarious that a bigot would call someone ignorant.

    I seriously think youre either very stupid or very very young becsaue so far u showed me that you actually believe everything without actual facts or researching the subject which is very narrow minded of you.

    I have facts and research: you, a non-Jew, made a typical storm-front comment on another thread without a hint of irony or sarcasm in context. I'm sure there are other incidents but taken together with your labeling yourself a "pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist", I've drawn the reasonable conclusion. You're a bigot.

    [–]Dastardlyrebel -1ポイント0ポイント  (16子コメント)

    People here should read and criticize Ilan Pappe's "ethnic cleansing of Palestine" - look at the "village files" and Plan Dalet.

    [–]rosinthebow 5ポイント6ポイント  (15子コメント)

    No they shouldn't because Pappe has admitted he's not a historian and doesn't write truth.

    [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

    I'd really like to know where you got that.

    [–]rosinthebow 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

    There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)

    I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings...(Ibid)

    Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. (Ibid)

    [–]Dastardlyrebel 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

    Well that's correct, in a narrow philosophical sense. The context is important. Nobody is perfectly objective and free of ideology. History is always an inexact and incomplete science, it can never be perfect. The only perfect truth which exists is in mathematics and logic.

    [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yeah...but Pepe is a nut, based on the simple truth that anyone who supports the one state "solution" is deranged.

    [–]JewsInventedFalafel[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I support a 1 state solution. All we have to do is end the arab occupation of Judea & Samaria

    [–]rosinthebow 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

    History is about historical facts. Either Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492 or he didn't. There's no competing narratives there.

    Pappe isn't interested in finding the truth. He just repeats what Palestinians tell him and declares it the truth with no actual facts to back him up. By his own admittance!

    [–]Dastardlyrebel -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Yes and some facts are less clear than others. Like was their a massacre at Tantura in 1948?

    If there was a singular historical narrative we wouldn't be arguing now would we?

    Ilan Pappe's works are well referenced. Yes he uses Palestinian testimony too, what's wrong with that?

    [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Yes and some facts are less clear than others. Like was their a massacre at Tantura in 1948?

    We don't know. But just because we don't know doesn't mean there isn't an answer. There either was a massacre or there wasn't. It's not like sometimes there was and sometimes there wasn't.

    Ilan Pappe's works are well referenced. Yes he uses Palestinian testimony too, what's wrong with that?

    What's wrong with that is that people are often wrong and or lie, and Pappe presents the narratives of people as facts with no actual evidence to support them. His book is called the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and is all about the "fact" that Palestine was ethnically cleansed, but the only evidence he offers is a bunch of Palestinians saying "yeah it was ethnic cleansing."

    Historians are supposed to find out what actually happened and write about that. Not just copy down any fairy tale anyone tells them and repeat it robotically.

    [–]Dastardlyrebel -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

    That's really not the "only evidence he offers" in "Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". There's plenty of references to Israeli military archives, Jewish sources.

    [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Benny Morris on another one of Pappe's books;

    "About the book, Morris writes:

    ...Unfortunately, much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication...

    ...In Pappé's account, there is no faulting the Palestinians for regularly assaulting the Zionist enterprise...The Palestinians are forever victims, the Zionists are forever "brutal colonizers"...

    ...The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities...

    ...For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable. Why grope for the truth? Narrativity is all. So no reader should be surprised to discover that, according to Pappé. . .[Here Morris provides a partial list of Pappé's numerous falsehoods]

    Anyone interested in the real history of Palestine/Israel and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would do well to run vigorously in the opposite direction."

    By Pappe's own admissions he publishes unproven narratives and his peers tear him apart.

    [–]DontaskaboutDimonaFrom Muscat, Yes Oman actually exists -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Lol, the most rabid right wingers are upvoting a haartez article, who would of thought? I don't understand why Morris is taken seriously. The IDF's own record takes responsibility for being the most substantial reasons for the Palestinian exodus. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Opening_of_archives

    [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

    The IDF record agrees with Morris. It states Arabs left to avoid being caught in the crossfire.

    [–]DontaskaboutDimonaFrom Muscat, Yes Oman actually exists 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    It does, but it also emphasizes that the IDF along side the Irgun where (by their own measure) where the most influential causes of Arab civilians fleeing their homes. They couldn't make it more clear that they categorically give themselves more credit than the Arab interactions.

    [–]rosinthebow 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    They said their operations (as in fighting the invading genocidal Arab armies) was a significant factor in the flight of the Arabs because those Arabs didn't want to be caught in the crossfire. They didn't say they expelled the Arabs because in most cases they didn't and your link doesn't say otherwise.

    [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]rosinthebow 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Why you have to insult and bully anyone who disagrees with you amazes me. Reported. Again.

      Yeah, the IDF had hostile operations that took place in Arab settlements as part of the war, just like they had hostile operations that took place on open ground and in Jewish settlements. Anywhere enemies were, they had hostile operations, including Arab villages. And just like every other people that were caught between two fighting forces, the Arabs got out of the way.

      Your own sources draws a distinction between the hostile operations and actual expulsion, which was another factor much further down the list. Can you explain why the IDF would draw a distinction between the two factors if they as you claim meant the same thing? Without insults, preferably?

      [–]DontaskaboutDimonaFrom Muscat, Yes Oman actually exists -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Without insults, preferably?

      If you want to read instead of victimizing yourself, the answer is in the previous post. You clearly didn't read it, and instead derived some strange defense in which hostile actions somehow don't cause fleeing. Even though you say

      the Arabs got out of the way.

      ..

      Can you explain why the IDF would draw a distinction between the two factors

      They didn't. Your trying to build a case that doesn't exist.

      would draw a distinction

      There was no distinction in the list as they where

      11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

      [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Hostile actions do cause fleeing. But the hostile actions weren't against civilians, and there's nothing in your quote that says otherwise.

      Here's some of the other factors you conveniently left out:

      The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

      Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.

      The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).

      Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]

      Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].

      Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.

      Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]

      Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.

      The IDF does state their forces expelled some Arabs, but it wasn't as big a factor as their fighting with Arab armed forces in Arab settlements (the first factor).

      If you think the first factor is expulsion, then why didn't the IDF a) just say so like they did later and b) cite them as two different factors? Answer: because the first factor wasn't against civilians, like I've been saying.

      Every war in history results in civilians fleeing the fighting. It's illogical and ridiculous to claim Palestinian civilians are somehow different and they and only they were only expelled and never left of their own accord.

      [–]Dastardlyrebel -3ポイント-2ポイント  (21子コメント)

      If the people who fled in 1948 where not victims of ethnic cleansing, why were they never allowed back to their homes?

      [–]xhrit 11ポイント12ポイント  (18子コメント)

      Because they were members of a hostile nation at war with Israel.

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

      It's standard to allow civilian refugees back to their homes after fleeing due to war. Hundreds of thousands of Lebanese fled every time there was a war in Lebanon, and they were allowed back.

      [–]xhrit 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Civilians of your own country yes, but not civilians who rejected citizenship and joined an enemy state.

      [–]rosinthebow 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

      You mean like the Sudentenland Germans returning to Czechoslovakia?

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

      No there was an ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2. They weren't allowed to return.

      But most wars that's not really the case.

      [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Exactly. They weren't allowed to return even though they were citizens of Czechoslovakia. For the Palestinians to demand a return even though they aren't citizens defies belief and historical precedent.

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Interesting that you mention it. Most people aren't aware of the expulsion of Germans past WW2. It was a deliberate and conscious expulsion. I wouldn't say it's what usually happens or that it excuses what happened in Palestine.

      [–]rosinthebow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      It seemed like in the mid 20th century, that IS what usually happens. The Jews ethnically cleansed from the West Bank and Europe weren't allowed back. Neither were the Indians and Pakistanis moved as part of partition.

      [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Wait, have you been following the partition on India? 14 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were displaced (200,000 to 2,000,000 died). They never returned to the places they originated from and built new lives in India/Pakistan. In the Arab/Jewish war, only the Jews became citizens of Israel while the Arabs became "Palestinians" and are still waiting to "return".

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

      That was a horrendous atrocity, very ugly, with aspects of ethnic cleansing. Incidentally also when the British left as the colonial power. Ok you so admit that what Israel did was ethnic cleansing?

      [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

      Did you see that I used the word "displaced" in the comment above? I don't call the Jews who have been displaced from Arab countries "ethnically cleansed" (which sounds like "gassed to death") and I don't use that phrase for the Arabs who have been displaced during the war with Israel, which they launched. You know how they would have prevented the displacement and death on both sides? Accepted peace and cooperation, something that their cultural and social narrative is unable to do till this day.

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

      We can use the word ethnic cleansing if that's what it is. Maybe even for the Jews displaced from Arab countries in 1948, although 1948 was for Israel a very good year, a national homecoming, and for the Palestinians a disaster.

      Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in peace and cooperation for centuries in Palestine, a country of religious tolerance, unlike Europe which treated its Jews as aliens.

      Did the Zionists accept peace and cooperation? Did they want to share the land? The Zionists colonized Palestine in a European manner - by force and not by integrating with the natives. It was also clear from the outset that they wanted the land for themselves alone. When the Jewish settlers starting coming to Israel in the 19th century and buying up land, they would kick the peasants off their land, and strictly forbade the employment of Palestinians on Jewish owned land, or the resale of JNF land to Palestinians (it was inalienable). So in this way the Arabs could gain no advantage from the land now or in the future. By the 1920's they had purchased 16% of the best land in Palestine in this manner.

      Anyway I think peace and cooperation is the way forward, for both sides.

      [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

      I'm sure we can, because you:

      That was a horrendous atrocity, very ugly

      I really don't enjoy PC stuff...do you really "feel" the atrocious and horrendous act? Are you Indian or Pakistani? That's why I don't use "ethnic cleanising" because it can also mean "gassed to death".

      and for the Palestinians a disaster.

      They were not "Palestinians" yet. They had family members across the Arab world. They are a tribal society.

      Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in peace and cooperation for centuries in Palestine, a country of religious tolerance, unlike Europe which treated its Jews as aliens.

      You don't know that. There were numerous pogroms of Jews (and Christians, but less) across the Arab world. MANY of them are documented but I'm sure that tons more never were.

      Did the Zionists accept peace and cooperation? Did they want to share the land?

      From Israel's deceleration of independence before the Arabs attacked:

      WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

      WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

      ...

      they would kick the peasants off their land

      No.

      land to Palestinians

      Jews were also "Palestinians". Stop using that word when talking about anything before the late 60s.

      Anyway I think peace and cooperation is the way forward, for both sides.

      lol :)

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Yeah we can't just go by the stated intentions of Israel's independence. Of course they're only going to say nice things there. If you look at the reality, the ethnic cleansing already started before the end of the mandate, and before the Arab nations attacked.

      By 1 May 1948, two weeks before the Israeli Declaration of Independence, nearly 175,000 Palestinians (approximately 25%) had already fled.[34]

      And now does Israel accept peace and cooperation? It demands that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state, not as a state for all of its inhabitants. Is that in the spirit of peace and cooperation?

      There were attacks on Jews in the Arab world, but nothing compared to the violence and exclusion they experienced in Europe which really had a puritanical and fanatic zeal to it. Islamic Spain was far more tolerant to Jews that after the Christian reconquest.

      [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      By 1 May 1948, two weeks before the Israeli Declaration of Independence, nearly 175,000 Palestinians (approximately 25%) had already fled.[34]

      Why did they flee?

      Is that in the spirit of peace and cooperation?

      Yes. They have so many other countries and the Arab minority that live in Israel have more freedom than anywhere else in the Middle East. You are again a product of watching a lot of Al Jazeera, probably.

      There were attacks on Jews in the Arab world

      You said they lived peacefully and it's a total lie. They were massacred. When they weren't, is because they were a quiet dhimmi until the Muslim blamed them for something made up. There were numerous massacres of Jews in the Muslim world.

      Islamic Spain was far more tolerant to Jews that after the Christian reconquest.

      Great, good for them! oh wait:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

      [–]Dastardlyrebel 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I really don't enjoy PC stuff...do you really "feel" the atrocious and horrendous act? Are you Indian or Pakistani? That's why I don't use "ethnic cleanising" because it can also mean "gassed to death".

      Not sure what you're asking here? The largest mass exodus in history, possibly, with genocidal attacks, maybe 2 million dead. Of course it was an atrocious and horrendous act.

      That's why I don't use "ethnic cleanising" because it can also mean "gassed to death".

      Ethnic cleansing is forced removal of a population group. As for the latter it's usually called genocide.

      [–]TheGhostOfAntiHumantil7as tizi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I was referring to the fact that you have to show how caring you are by using elaborate superlatives which are just words and not feelings.

      [–]colonoscopius 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      because that is not definition of palestinian refugee and those were not their homes anymore. lost them the moment they declared genocidal war on jewish population.

      [–]IWaaasPiiirate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      They left of their own volition because they were told the Jews would be gone in a week and then it could all be there's. The Arab population of Israel today is made up of the ones that stayed and their descendants.