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Mars/IAC 2016It's T-60 days to the Mars Architecture Announcement. Welcome to the /r/SpaceX Mars/IAC 2016 Programming Lineup! (self.spacex)

Zucal[M] が 投稿

It's T-60 days to the Mars Architecture Announcement. Welcome to the r/SpaceX Mars/IAC 2016 Programming Lineup!

Hey! We're now 60 days out from IAC 2016, and the Mars Architecture presentation from Elon Musk! We moderators wanted to let you know what's in store for the subreddit over the next 2 months or so.

This thread will also serve as the "hyperthread", containing links to all derivative IAC/Mars threads. Enjoy! Below is our programming:

Date Time Event
July 29th T-60 Days r/SpaceX Programming Lineup (this post)
Aug. 13th T-45 Days Start of Crowdfunding Campaign
Aug. 23rd T-35 Days Weekly Discussion Threads
Aug. 28th T-30 Days Predictions Thread
Sep. 20th T-7 Days IAC Attendee Thread, RSVP cutoff
Sep. 26th T-1 Day Mars Architecture Announcement Thread
Sep. 26th T-1 Day Media Thread
Sep. 27th T-0 Days Mars Architecture Presentation with Elon Musk - 1:30-2:30PM LT, 11:30-12:30PM PT, 2:30-3:30PM ET, 6:30-7:30PM UTC
Sep. 27th T+0 Days r/SpaceX IAC 2016 Meetup
Sep. 27th - Oct. 4th T+0-7 Days Post Announcement Topic-Specific Threads
Oct. 4th T+7 Days Predictions Revisited

Crowdfunding Campaign - r/spacex/comments/4xnq9o

Two of our moderators, /u/EchoLogic and /u/TheVehicleDestroyer, will be attending IAC 2016! They have paid their way out of their own pocket, and will be trekking there to see the unveiling in person. The costs to do this are significant, but they are not expecting the subreddit to cover their finances (and initially did not expect any compensation). Crowdfunding will cover things like accomodation (they're bunking!), mobile data, photos, ticket costs, and other items related to IAC. The money raised will be split evenly between them both.

/u/EchoLogic leaves New Zealand on September 23, and is flying through LAX and then onto Guadalajara, arriving ~30 hours later. /u/TheVehicleDestroyer left Ireland a number of days ago, and is hopping his way through Cuba and other Caribbean destinations before arriving in Mexico in late September.

Predictions Thread - r/spacex/comments/503ypo

This thread will go up 30 days before the IAC; this is the chance for you to have your own personal say in what you expect the unveiling will contain. Do your best to be as accurate as possible. Top-level comments will be restricted to predictions, and we'll be making a spreadsheet/table internally to keep track of them. Predictions should be ordered: using bullets or numbering (via markdown), so each person has a number of quantifiable predictions. You can make predictions as specific and as in-depth as you like, but "BFR will be a rocket" won't win you any awards :P. There's no winner per se, but 7 days after the IAC / Mars Architecture Announcement, we'll revisit these predictions to see how we did and who faired the best. Perhaps we can have prizes? Make us a recommendation!

Weekly Discussion Threads - r/spacex/comments/4z3zo5, r/spacex/comments/50foky, r/spacex/comments/51dqfp, r/spacex/comments/52ms0o

Pretty much what it says on the tin. Normal-rules weekly discussion threads specifically for IAC topics - there should be about 5 before the event. This should help reduce clutter on the sub. To post MCT discussion outside of this thread would require an extraordinary effort on the part of the writer to ensure their post quality is top notch.

IAC Attendee Thread - /r/spacex/comments/53mcgx

This thread is going to be designated and restricted to any IAC Attendees who are going to be tweeting, streaming, redditing, etc. They'll be able to post links to their Periscope streams, talk about who they're meeting, where they're going, what the convention is like, and generally let us live vicariously through them!

Mars Architecture Announcement Thread & Media Thread

This is the big one that we've all been waiting for. The talk during which Elon Musk will (hopefully) reveal SpaceX's hardware and systems architecture for human colonization of Mars. "[SpaceX] was founded in 2002 to revolutionize space technology, with the ultimate goal of enabling people to live on other planets", and this architecture is result of more than 14 years of working towards that singular goal.

Because this is such an exciting announcement, we're going to treat this as a launch thread with relaxed rules, as I'm sure we'll all want to get a bit rowdy. We will also create the Media Thread as usual, which will be our repository for all of the media coming out of the announcement (screenshots, pictures of hardware, mainstream news articles, etc.). The subreddit will be put in restricted mode as is normal for a launch, as we should have all of the structures in place for the vast majority of posts.

Reddit Live will be used to post updates to the subreddit, and we'll start coverage as early as possible (/u/EchoLogic & /u/TheVehicleDestroyer have kindly offered to queue without water or food), and finish as late as possible. Tweets, posts, links, photos, periscope streams, you name it.

Post-Announcement

Depending on the content of the announcement, we're considering creating multiple "cordoned" content threads, each discussing a single aspect of the announcement under normal subreddit rules. We may prefer that these grow organically if the announcement isn't highly structured, or we may just "promote" a user post to official if it works well enough. In both cases, we'll likely be very vigilant about removing duplicate and redundant posts, as those posts would quickly push other content off the front page of the subreddit, due to how Reddit's algorithms work. The sub will be out of restricted mode and allow other content through as normal.

As an example, we may have a "Mars City Planning Megathread" and a "Tanker Refueling Megathread", as two examples to give you an idea for the granularity we are going for here. The exact titles will depend on what's announced, and we'll endeavour to get them up and posted within an hour of conference end.

Predictions-revisited

Who did the best? Claim your fame here for predicting the Mars Colonization Transporter architecture with amazing accuracy!

FAQ

What is MCT/BFR?

The Mars Colonial Transporter (MCT) and the Big Fucking Rocket (BFR) are the two components of SpaceX’s endgame: - a fully reusable mission architecture for delivering humans and cargo en masse to the surface of the Red Planet.

BFR is MCT’s launch vehicle. Numerous interviews with Musk have shed little light on it, but he has revealed that it will be the world’s largest ever launch vehicle by a considerable margin, beating out even the Saturn V. It will be a single-booster stack, powered by many of the methalox Raptor engines SpaceX has been developing. Recent rumors indicate a core diameter of approximately 44 feet, or 13.4 meters.

MCT is the meat and bones of the architecture. It will be the vehicle that actually lands on Mars, carrying 100 tons of cargo and/or 100 souls down to the surface.The only known clue to its presumably massive dimensions are that it will be “a hundred times the size of an SUV”. Further details include the use of an internal water shield to protect its soft and fleshy occupants from radiation, as well as the use of aerobraking or aerocapture to reduce the ∆v requirement. As with BFR, MCT will use SpaceX’s under-development Raptor engine family, selected because of the ability to produce methalox fuel on the surface of Mars. This will enable MCT to not only go from LEO to the Martian surface in a single shot, but allow MCT to return to earth in one go as well.

When and where is it being unveiled? Why the IAC? Why Mexico?

Elon Musk is giving a 60 minute technical presentation at the IAC 2016, in Gaudalajara, Mexico on September 27, 2016; entitled: "Colonizing Mars – A deep technical presentation on the space transport architecture needed to colonize Mars". This is taking place at 13:30 to 14:30 local time.

The IAC (International Aeronautical Congress) is an industry-leading event organized by the IAF (International Aeronautical Federation) where agencies, companies, organizations, and other entities come together to present studies and host technical sessions about their plans, proposals, and ideas. You can learn more about the IAC on their website here. The location of the IAC rotates each year. This year, it is in Mexico, next year, it is in Adelaide, Australia.

How can I participate in the awesomeness?

You're already in r/SpaceX! That's step one covered! Right here, in this very thread, you will find links to all the discussion that will take place over the next hectic three months. The Mars architecture announcement thread will contain specific links related to SpaceX info, how to watch, etc.

Threads & Hyper(loop)links

Subreddit Official

SpaceX/IAC Official

User-created content

  • N/A

Are you attending IAC 2016? Register your attendance here by summoning or messaging the moderators.

No RSVPs later than T-7 days.

  1. /u/TheVehicleDestroyer - "Echo and TVD will be representing r/SpaceX at IAC 2016!"
  2. /u/EchoLogic - "I told /u/TheVehicleDestroyer to bring fold up chairs"
  3. /u/WittgensteinsLadder - "I've got a ticket reserved!"
  4. /u/Elon_Mollusk - "Time to register, look for some flights, and hope that Elon chooses the same hotel as me!"
  5. /u/mks7800 - "I will be attending the conference what can I do for the sub?"
  6. /u/newcantonrunner5 - "I'll be there. Good idea for a meetup."
  7. /u/LunarNate - "My son (8th grade) and I have tickets booked and will be there for this historic announcement."
  8. /u/MarsColon - "I go to IAC as well"
  9. /u/StephenErasmusW - "Been lurking this sub forever, but I registered to say I'm going."
  10. /u/vaporcobra - "I am also planning on attending in person, by the way."
  11. /u/spx12345 - "I will be attending the IAC on the 26th to 30th of September"
  12. /u/ministoj - "I'll be at IAC presenting my work on Martian greenhouses."
  13. /u/seis66 - "I am going as a tech journalist for a small newspaper in Chile."
  14. /u/SoleilDeimos - "Well, my plane ticket is bought and I'll be going to IAC."
  15. /u/spavaloo - "Ticket, flight, and lodging acquired for the whole week."
  16. /u/101Airborne - "I will be attending the IAC this upcoming september”
  17. /u/dreyrden - "I will also be at the IAC in September, presenting some of my work”
  18. /u/ForTheMission - "Pulled the trigger, but I'll be there just for the 27th."
  19. /u/UkuleleZenBen - "I'm flying to come and watch the conference and would love to meet you guys."
  20. /u/tossha - "I'm attending IAC on behalf of our Russian community at vk.com/elonmusk & vk.com/spacex."
  21. /u/m0r4c0 - "I'm going to be at IAC as well."
  22. /u/BroilIt
  23. /u/MartianFirefly - "I'm going to IAC as well."
  24. /u/jeppeTrede - "Hey, I'll be attending the IAC as well!"
  25. /u/FishApproves -"Hi, I'm also attending IAC."
  26. /u/linnk87 - "Hi, I'll be attending the IAC."
  27. /u/Kharjor - "Mexican going to IAC!"
  28. /u/Ic3Z3r0 - "I'm going to the IAC as well."
  29. /u/bflipped - "I'll be at the IAC!"
  30. /u/gauss-descarte - "I will be attending IAC!"
  31. /u/termderd - "I'm attending IAC!"
  32. /u/encom - "I'll be attending IAC 2016!"
  33. /u/psiedlak - "I'll be there as well!"
  34. /u/omguraclown - "I'll be attending the IAC."

---

  1. /u/lotsofguacamole - "Another Mexican going to IAC!!!!"
  2. /u/redbeard4- "I am attending the IAC."
  3. /u/maarteag - "Holy guacamole! I'm attending IAC..."
  4. /u/abraguez96 - "I am a Mechanical Engineering student in Guadalajara also attending IAC."
  5. /u/Millnert - "Just signed up just to late-RSVP to the Day 0 at IAC2016."

Questions, comments, or concerns?

If it's IAC-related, feel free to suggest them here! If it's unrelated, you can always contact us using the 'Message The Moderators' button on the sidebar. Cheers!

-The r/SpaceX moderation team

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ベストトップ論争中古い順Q&A

[–]FiniteElementGuy 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey mods, what about the predictions revisited thread? ;)

[–]old_sellsword 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can the body of this post can be updated with links to the Announcement Thread and the Media Thread?

[–]quadrplax 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And Week 5 discussion, and the post-announcement discussion threads.

[–]TheBlacktom 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anyone missed it: I updated the survey statistics album with a simple model of BFR/MCT/ITS/whatever based on the median votes on dimensions.
In less than 1 days we will see how close we got!

[–]steezysteve96 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

You can modify post titles now??

[–]retiringonmarsWiki & FAQ editor 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

With CSS, yes. It's not something we do routinely.

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

not something we do routinely

Do it every day regardless :P

I really love the idea though, and also dislike the idea of Reddit developers that it couldn't be edited...

[–]thru_dangers_untold 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Orbital ATK published this video today: Cislunar Space Habitation – Paving the Way to Mars

[–]Maximus-Catimus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't help but see a giant pallet of cash about to be burned up in the atmosphere as the first stage separates and as it falls out of frame after interstage release. And then why would you show video of your spaceship burning up in the atmosphere after mission completion?

I don't get the feeling that these people are the sharpest tools in the shed.

It is an amazingly small amount of mass/station they are able to add with each SLS and Orion mission. How many SLS mission are they planning per year? And aren't those SLS missions expensive in a non-reusable way? And then take it to Mars? It's a 10 year old station by the time it gets ready to go.

[–]calapine 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Question: Besides the official IAC stream, are there any other live streams?

Thanks :)

[–]Jarnis 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This: https://www.youtube.com/embed/A1YxNYiyALg

(for the SpaceX presentation)

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wonder if these will be different or not... may be worth to open both at once.

[–]Jeb_Kenobi 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was wondering if there's going to be a timely posted video for the presentation because I can't watch it live (exam). If you know of one could you please provide the link?

[–]MarcysVonEylau 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

SpaceX's Youtube stream should be avalible here, even after the presentation.

[–]--8- 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there any way to watch the livestream without installing Flash?

[–]still-at-work 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So right now there is the Heads of Agency panel: http://livestream.com/accounts/4426843/events/6315496/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfoAndActivity=true&autoPlay=true&mute=false

Are we suppose to discuss that here (assuming anything interesting is said) or somewhere else. Musk's presentation is the headliner but its possible some good info comes out of these opening acts.

[–]jimslong 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

kinda confused I'm located in mountain time what time will ill be able to live stream it

[–]still-at-work 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

12:30 PM Tuesday, If I did the math correct.

[–]manfredatee -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just a friendly heads-up that you call the IAF the International Aeronautical Federation, with a Congress to match.

[–]whatswrongbaby 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except it's Astronautical.. this whole post is wrong

[–]whatswrongbaby 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So how does the video stream work when there's like 20 presentations all at the same time. Are we gonna be able to go back and watch them all?

[–]Unikraken 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Surely they'll be on Youtube within a day.

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

These will be livestreamed, I think there is only one at the time:
http://www.iafastro.org/events/iac/iac2016/plenary-programme

They have a Youtube channel, so I suppose some other presentations may be uploaded there later. (Last year even the LBN was uploaded 1 week after the event, livestreaming is some new stuff, I really-really hope my nagging in email was part of their decision)

[–]RedDragon98 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

T-24h

[–]YugoReventlov 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

www.spacex.com/mars says it's 30 hours from now!

[–]RedDragon98 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

NOOOOOOOOOOO, I mixed up the PT and UTC times.

Now I have to watch @

*** 4:30 AM***

[–]muzzoid 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Another Aussie? I'll be up as well...

[–]RedDragon98 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

you going next year?, BTW I could be Japanese

[–]shirro 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another Aussie and I live in SA so if they get a keynote like this one it would be hard to ignore. IAC2017 might find this a hard act to follow.

[–]muzzoid 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Haha i'll see, it could be a good excuse to check out Adelaide.

[–]RedDragon98 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmmm yeah I'm probably going, I know people in Adelaide so staying somewhere should be easy.

[–]thatnerdguy1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It happens for me during math class, so I need to cut off all of my internet until I'm home :(.

[–]MS_dosh 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm probably not going to be able to join the stream until at least 15 minutes or so after it starts - can you skip back to the start of a youtube stream while it's still streaming?

[–]no_lungs 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes. Treat it the same way as a video whose length keeps changing.

[–]eirexe 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

As some of you may know I usually re-stream any rocket launch I can catch, mainly SpaceX with real time commentary and spanish translation, this time it's a bit different :D.

https://youtu.be/GN_tIuwSm-k

[–]007T 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's really cool that you do dubings of the broadcasts for people, but I noticed while looking around your channel that it seems CRS-9 was mislabeled as CRS-8?

[–]shirro 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think we should start a year long campaign to convince Bezos to do a full reveal on Blue Origin's interplanetary architecture at IAC 2017 since it is in Adelaide which is a bit more accessible than Mexico for me.

[–]Hydra991 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

May be you should let them reach the Orbit first.

[–]Nautilusnoah 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unnecessarily savage, I suspect you might be eating those words in a few years...

[–]Malky_10 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know what? SpaceX didn't reach orbit, before they reached orbit.

[–]random-person-001 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or lunar architecture - they seem to go for that more, although their goals are a little fuzzier than SpaceX'. In any case, that's a discussion for the Blue Origin subreddit. Good luck!

[–]mlazowik 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Predictions Thread" in the events table links to 3rd weekly for me…

[–]nathansapp 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

HYYPPPEEE! Okay but seriously, this is going to be awesome, I can't wait for it!

[–]_rocketboy 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Thanks to whoever seems to have gilded all the predictions comments!

[–]daronjay 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, I was super surprised my "Elon won't present anything about BFR or MCT" prediction got gilded, though I suppose you could argue I was technically correct since he only spoke about the ITS

[–]Here_There_B_Dragons 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even my lame ass prediction was gilded - someone was very generous!

[–]_rocketboy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Same here... I put down two lines and then "I'll keep updating this...", then of course totally forgot about it

[–]Trion_ 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

An interesting coincidence, SpaceX representatives are going to be on my school's campus after the announcement to talk to seniors and project teams about internships. I will be going and listening to as many of their talks as I can and see if I can't talk to any of them personally.

[–]CalhounsNeckBeard 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah they're coming to UCLA the day after as well... does seem like a strange coincidence!

[–]Zucal[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

What school, if I may be bold enough to ask? :)

[–]Trion_ 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. It's a small but well respected engineering school in Indiana. SpaceX seems to like our students as I've talked to a few classmates that have gotten internships there and this is the second time they've come to our career fair. I personally don't meet their GPA requirements.

[–]Zucal[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks! The recruiters do get around a lot.

Hope things work out for you - GPA can be beat :)

[–]theZcuber 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The recruiters were at RIT a couple weeks ago. First college of the season!

Plus, they have a cool new system that allows you to put in your major other basic info and they'll send you a list of potential internships.

[–]Zucal[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man, what I'd give to be eligible sooner. Glad to hear they're continuing to evolve the system!

[–]GreyGreenBrownOakova 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Question request:

"Mr Musk, what was the starting point for designing the architecture? Did you arbitrarily pick 100 tonnes to Mars and work back from there, or did you decide on the BFR size and work forward? "

Or words to that effect. I'm fascinated by how these things get decided, given the almost limitless modes that could be used.

The SLS seems to be based on rehashing the shuttle components, then later on designing some sort of mission based on it. Truly the worst way to do it. Robert Zubrin asserts that the 90 day Mars plan was based on giving every NASA department a slice of the action, regardless of the complexity.

[–]Norose 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am almost certain that Elon Musk (and his Mars team at SpaceX) came to the conclusion that 100 tons of cargo on Mars per flight is the best way to rapidly set up the industry and infrastructure required to build a settlement using Martian materials, without being wasteful by sending too much stuff for people to actually use/set up during every sardonic period, and without being too anemic that progress could be happening faster but is limited by cargo sent from Earth. They would have come up with this number through countless hours of meetings, figuring out logistics, trying to build an understanding of starting a new industrial society from scratch, and so forth, until they settled on a number that was both doable and enabled it to be done quickly, which happened to be 100 tons.

Once they had the goal in mind, they would have done the math and figured that trying to make a launch vehicle capable of putting that mass on Mars on its own would be ridiculously difficult, a rocket many times the size of a Saturn V. After doing some more thinking and number crunching, they would have found that if they downsized the rocket to a more reasonable (still huge) size, they could get the same payload to Mars as long as they used on-orbit refueling. Now that they had a basic idea of an architecture, they could work out that their rocket would need to lift something around 230 tons into LEO per launch. With that in mind, and the fuel choice of methalox due to ISRU considerations, the rocket's overall size would become more clear.

As for the engines, we know that they already made some changes to the plan, regarding engine size and number. The Raptor was originally going to be bigger than an F-1, but got downsized to about 1/3rd of that size, most likely to give a more manageable TWR during the descent and landing phase of both the first stage booster and the spacecraft on Mars (a Falcon-9-first-stage-esque landing TWR would be far from optimal for a large spacecraft landing on a rough, undeveloped Mars). From the payload requirements, and engine specifications, it'd be easy to narrow down on the number of engines required per stage, which would depend on the number of stages and so forth.

Basically, I don't think SpaceX would start by designing a rocket to nowhere then design a mission architecture around it, since it's their hardware and their flight plan they can optimize the launch vehicle however they want.

[–]GreyGreenBrownOakova 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is a million different ways they could have done it. Designing around the Mars-Earth vehicle, Mars orbit rendezvous, LEO assembly instead of refueling.

If this architecture is successful, the design method has large implications for the way NASA and Congress do things.

[–]Norose 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing about on-orbit assembly vs refueling is that with on orbit assembly you need to actually manufacture multiple small fuel tanks and launch them, while with refueling you need to just launch one big nearly empty tank then use one refueling ferry multiple times to fuel up the big tank. A refueling ferry is therefore more likely to be the faster, cheaper option.

Mars orbit rendezvous would be complicated and add extra steps to the mission architecture far from the Earth. Since it's going to be really difficult to save anyone stranded on Mars or in Mars orbit, the best thing to do is to design the architecture in a way that limits complexity at Mars even if it increases complexity at Earth, since at Earth things can go wrong and people can be safe on the ground in hours or less. For this reason I don't think the system is going to require any orbiting at Mars nor any rendezvous apart from in low Earth orbit, I think the spacecraft is going to arrive at Mars from an interplanetary trajectory, immediately perform entry descent and landing (since the entire spacecraft is all one piece), refuel on the surface during the mission, and then launch directly onto an Earth return trajectory once the planets realign.

Of course there are a million ways of doing it, the point of having hundreds of meetings and brainstorms and discussions about it is to find the best solution among the untold many options. SpaceX is trying to do things in a way that makes sense economically and takes the least risk where the stakes are highest. They have a clear goal; to establish an Earth-Mars transportation system capable of allowing the colonization of Mars. As best they can tell, the requirements of such a system are that it must deliver a certain amount of cargo per mission, must be reusable and fly often, and avoid overcomplex solutions to eliminate excess risk of failures in deep space. The amount of cargo per launch window appears to be around 100 tons cargo per ship onto Mars, according to what SpaceX has figured, and that number informs most aspects of any transport system you could think of. SpaceX seems to have picked a pretty optimal solution in regards to keeping things simple (no staging at Mars or in deep space for example) and cheap (reusable refueling ferry instead of disposable drop tanks, reusable spacecraft and boosters, economies of scale making a bigger rocket give more bang per buck, etc).

[–]Juggernaut93 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

/u/Zucal CDT is UTC-5, so UTC time should be 6:30-7:30.

[–]Zucal[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

6:30-7:30

Fixed! It was pretty late when I converted that originally.

[–]Destructor1701 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait, what? 18:30-19:30, right? Let's stick to 24 hour to avoid confusion!

[–]Experience111 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (14子コメント)

I'm so hyped and so disappointed at the same time. Hyped because space exploration ftw ! But disappointed because : - Mars is a poor choice for mankind's next step and it's all Elon Musk has in mind. - My dream since before I even heard of Elon Musk was to do what he does, but now it's too late. I'm only 20. I guess I'm born 10 years too early after all...

[–]daronjay 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, Mars sucks but it's the best of a bad bunch if your objective is human habitation. Most other options have worse radiation , lower gravity, lower temperatures or crushing heat and pressure. Only Mars is truly feasible as a terraforming option. It makes you appreciate what we have here on good old Terra.

Besides, pretty sure I saw a clip of the ITS sitting on Europa, he seemed to think that would be a cool place to visit.

[–]zlsaArtist[M] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

To the downvoters: please don't downvote because you disagree with someone's opinion.

[–]DrFegelein 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sad this subreddit downvoted you for an opinion.

[–]Experience111 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It just happens you know, I don't really mind. I think what they didn't understand was that I was supporting Musk either way :)

[–]Bersonic 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Where would you suggest we go then? Where in the solar system could possibly be better than Mars?

[–]Experience111 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think that some of Jupiter's or Saturne's moons are a more exciting goal. There is more chance that we find life there and they are a bit more hospitable albeit colder and further away. It's just my opinion though and it's subject to change, I love to hear other's opinion :)

[–]Destructor1701 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of Jupiter's moons orbit through Jupiter's unbelievably violent radiation belts, and would be very dangerous for human habitation.

Saturn's moons are nicer, but they are very far away. That means it takes much longer to get there, making the supply requirements for the journey out prohibitive.

Mars really is the best option at this point in Humanity's development.

[–]Norose 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think any surface in the solar system other than Earth's is more hospitable than the surface of Mars.

[–]demdatdoe 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Why would you say that Mars is a poor choice?

[–]Experience111 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

My two cents is that Mars is an hostile environnement and just because it's one of the closest planets and was maybe habitable a long time ago doesn't mean it is still the right choice today. I understand that the martian dust is highly corrosive and toxic and there are regular sandstorms. Maybe geoengineering could make it hospitable but it is a long way to go and in my opinion a waste of money when we know of some other places that are 1) more likely to have life 2) a bit more hospitable. I'm referring to Jupiter's or Saturne's moons for exemple. Then again, my initial message was a bit off, it's just a personnal opinion and I don't even firmly believe in it, there's always room for debate :)

[–]demdatdoe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah yea. the corrosive dust is just as bad as the moons. Sandstorms are quite mild and more like a fog on earth. In terms of hospitabilty its actually the only planet other than earth in the solar system with the minerals and water for another technological civilization!

[–]Trion_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Martian dust storms aren't really that bad. Colonizing anything near Jupiter is going to give you radiation problems.

[–]Experience111 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

When I was talking about dust storms, it was more about the fact that they would carry toxic dust around than the winds power. Radiations in the Jovian system look bad indeed, I didn't know it was such a prevalent issue. However if we want to set ourselves for deep space exploration, we'll have to find a way to deal to shield our astronauts from radiations whether they are in their space suit or in their lab. Anyway, exploring space in any way is still exciting, I'll take Mars no problem if it is unanimously considered the best choice for manned exploration of the solar system :)

[–]Norose 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Martian dust isn't really that toxic. It contains perchlorate chemicals, which are related to bleach and can cause thyroid problems in high concentrations, but are very easy to clean and control in a sealed environment. It doesn't matter how toxic it is outside, just how clean you can keep things inside. Perchlorates are completely non toxic to plant life, and in fact there are many species of bacteria that will happily eat perchlorate chemicals and digest them into harmless salts. All we'd need to do is maintain a population of bacteria that can digest perchlorates and the colony would be self-cleaning in respect to those chemicals.

[–]giuliettamasina 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

You should add a link to a countdown timer such as this one to the table of events (maybe somewhere on the "T-0 Days" row) to reduce everyone's confusion regarding time zones etc. :)

[–]Destructor1701 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Click play on the SpaceX stream, and it'll give you a countdown now.

[–]sisc1337 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for linking this! I hate to calculate different timezones! :)

[–]abraguez96 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am a Mechanical Engineering student in Guadalajara also attending IAC.

[–]Fallout4TheWin -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

No RSVP's anymore, too late. EDIT: Okay apparently not, at least update the post if you're just gonna break your own rules mods. "No RSVPs later than T-7 days."

[–]oliversl 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

At T-4 days I wish al traveller a safe trip and enjoy possibly the most important speech regarding making humanity multi planetary.

Enjoy the speech by watching Elon not in a viewfinder of a camera, but live with your own eyes, seizing the moment.

We all will be watching it on the internet, Godspeed you all.

[–]vitt72 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

So question about the long term habitat on Mars- is a pressurized dome at all feasible? I feel like long term that's ultimately going to be what needs to happen rather than living in a couple hundred standalone MCT type deals on Mars. To actually have a city with eventually a million people, the actually structure and layout of the city is going to be interesting...

[–]SnowyDuck 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. Dig a ditch, lay down an inflatable with ribbed skeleton, pour on a cement, then back fill it with Mars soil. Imagine something like a Martian igloo.

[–]ergzay 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Above ground pressure domes aren't suitable in the near term unless we're talking about very thick domes with some kind of water/lead lining. The main issue is that while the radiation risk of traveling through space to Mars and returning isn't too bad, the risk for staying there long term (decades) is quite concerning and would be a major cause of mortality among colonists. In the near term any colonies either need to be buried under dirt or need to be dug out underground.

[–]007T 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think there's any intention of using the MCTs as long-term habitats, they'll be there to deliver the materials or equipment needed to help construct those habitats and then they'll need to return back to Earth. A big problem with pressurized domes on the surface is that they don't provide radiation shielding, it's very likely that habitats will be built underground on Mars, or covered with a layer of Martian soil.

[–]VFP_ProvenRoute 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the best compormise would be internconnected subterranean living spaces with dome structures at the surface. Work and sleep underground with the radiation protection but spend your leisure time above ground in the sunlight. Presumably multiple smaller domes will be safer and more practical.

[–]Martianspirit 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They would not be stand alone. They would be connected. Each 1500m³ pressure vessel with several others.

[–]bernardosousa 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember someone saying the logical choice would be to go underground after a while. What's almost certain is that people will tend to choose physics over tradition to design and build the colony. My bet is that it'll be the neatest place to live ever created by humans. But only for a time. You know... Before we go further out in the Solar System.

[–]maarteaga 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy guacamole! I'm attending IAC, but I'm too late to RSVP for this...

[–]dubalubdub 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

I come to the sub pretty often and would love to hear about this from you guys. I'm a massive supporter of space exploration so I want to be clear I want this mission to happen! With that said I'm curious how they will make profit from it? With reusable boosters it's clear how Elon Musk is able to advance his scientific ambitions while keeping his company running but I can't for the life of me figure out the plan for mars in this regard.. Can anyone weigh in? Is the company just prepared to take a loss on this mission?

[–]CProphetSpace Author 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

Is the company just prepared to take a loss on this mission?

SpaceX would no doubt be willing to unilaterally fund Mars colonisation out of their launch/internet revenue, although this would probably happen over a longer timeframe than currently planned. It seems a more likely scenario that SpaceX will gain some kind of sponsorship from government during the next presidential administration. NASA cannot afford to miss the boat, if SpaceX intend to land on Mars almost a decade earlier. Likely some accommodation will be made for NASA to participate, in return for a sizable contribution to the development costs and technical support.

[–]alecs_stan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Advertising and exclusivities/product placement have the potential to contribute a significant percent to the overall costs

[–]rustybeancake 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

NASA cannot afford to miss the boat, if SpaceX intend to land on Mars almost a decade earlier.

Hmm, I sort of agree, but if NASA don't provide a lot of funding, SpaceX probably can't do it (or can't do it any faster than NASA). So it's really up to NASA/Congress whether it happens ten years earlier or not.

[–]zingpc 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

NASA will have to jump on the wagon. SLS will be seen as massive wastage and there WILL be taxpayer outcry when crazy massive (multi core) rockets start doing the launch,land,repeat number.

[–]CProphetSpace Author 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So it's really up to NASA/Congress whether it happens ten years earlier or not

There are other options available to fund a Mars landing. Elon Musk has already turned down an offer made by Buzz Aldrin to provide funds from his contacts in the Middle East. There are plenty of opportunities for funding, from a SpaceX IPO to mechanisms more creative. Colonisation might take a little longer but somehow SpaceX will find a way I'm sure. Recently Elon Musk has been more bullish about Mars than usual, maybe he has something to reveal at the IAC.

[–]bernardosousa 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Elon Musk has already turned down an offer made by Buzz Aldrin to provide funds from his contacts in the Middle East.

Interesting! It's the first time I read this. Would you please point me to where I can learn more about that?

[–]CProphetSpace Author 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

My pleasure, here's the Bloomberg interview with Buzz Aldrin where he describes his offer to Elon Musk to work as an intermediary with financiers in Dubai. Elon declined, which seems to infer he has his own plan to provide the necessary finance.

[–]rustybeancake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I agree, they'll probably find a way, barring some major global crash or tech bubble 2.0 that wipes out all his silicon valley billionaire mates.

[–]dubalubdub 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So the going to Mars thing is a way to motivate support in congress? That makes sense to me thank you!

[–]Martianspirit 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I strongly doubt it. There is just no way that Congress would fund a SpaceX Mars drive. At least not any time soon. Maybe after a Mas base is established. Or at the very earliest after the first unmanned MCT have landed on Mars.

Right now there are attempts to cement the SLS system as the Congress system of choice.

[–]daronjay 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If Elon could just find a way to do the assembly and construction of the BFR & MCT in the states of the Representatives on the congressional committee, I'm sure such funding would miraculously arrive! /s

[–]VulcanCafe 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I strongly suspect that once BFR is 'ready enough' we'll see a 'SpaceX Mars Mission Company' pop into existence, and a few ultra wealthy individuals will fund it. Protects SpaceX and provides means to pay for missions. Just a guess, but I'd give it good odds. Note: This is similar to movie productions where each one is a separate business entity.

[–]rustybeancake 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you're probably right. As long as the appetite among Silicon Valley investor types is maintained, then this will probably happen. We've seen a lot of investor money going to space startups in the last few years, even for long-term goals like asteroid mining. So an organisation with the credibility that SpaceX has probably won't struggle to find Mars investors.

[–]YugoReventlov 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is the company just prepared to take a loss on this mission?

I think they are. At least initially.

Developing BFR & MCT will be done with the money they earn from their daily operations flying F9 and FH, possibly supplemented by extra income from their LEO internet constellation - if that ever happens.

[–]rustybeancake 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Developing BFR & MCT will be done with the money they earn from their daily operations flying F9 and FH

Problem is, this is kind of at odds with their other stated aim, to lower the cost barrier to access to space. They are the lowest cost option on the market, and reusability has been sold as a way to lower that cost further. Their margins must already be pretty low. If they fly 12 missions per year, and they're only making, say, $10m profit per mission, can they really finance a project as huge as BFR/ITS on only $120m per year? I actually don't think F9/FH mission profits are going to make up even the bulk of the Mars funding sources.

[–]YugoReventlov 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Mars is a more important goal than any other of their goals.

[–]rustybeancake 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

...which suggests they'd be better raising their prices closer to their competitors', in order to better fund Mars. Not saying they should, just making a discussion point.

[–]Karriz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Re-using first stages might allow bigger profit margins. They'll have a whole bunch of essentially paid-for stages, but the launch prices would still stay around the same ballpark (discounted but no massive reduction).

[–]CanuckCanadian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man I would love to attend this.

[–]redbeard4 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am attending the IAC, if it isn't too late to register here. /u/Zucal

[–]lotsofguacamole 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Another Mexican going to IAC!!!!

Mod summon: /u/Zucal

[–]TheYang 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

So what's the consensus?
will we get a (preliminary) cause of RUD as a prelude to the talk?
in the few days left leading up to it?
at some point after?

[–]venku122GDC2016 attendee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm expecting we'll here some details of the accident on Tuesday, either in the talk proper or in the press conference after. Very like to get a summary of the data they have in my opinion, probably expand beyond the second stage anomaly. A preliminary cause is very unlikely.

[–]MarcysVonEylau 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a big unknown.

[–]TheYang 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

the question would be a lot less interesting if there was a known answer.

[–]MarcysVonEylau 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea, but seriously, if something was known, it would be on the hot page in a matter of seconds.

[–]MarcysVonEylau 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

a tease

[–]BrandonMarc 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

This video is unlisted. Be considerate and think twice before sharing.

Huh ... I haven't seen that before.

[–]iamkevski 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whoa! Part of the IAC intro perhaps? Looks like components of something in the background, perhaps some Merlin engines or something? Also, another dragon? So amped for next week!!

Edit: this was uploaded in 2013... never mind.

[–]MarcysVonEylau 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Echo is busy packing, page Zucal instead guys :D

[–]psiedlak 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll be there as well! Paging /u/EchoLogic

[–]omguraclown 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

/u/EchoLogic I'll be attending the IAC; looking forward to joining you at the meetup.

[–]quadrplax 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is there going to be a 5th weekly discussion thread?

[–]TheBlacktom 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is, but not linked here yet. Scroll around on /r/spacex :)

[–]quadrplax 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wasn't there when I posted this.

[–]WittgensteinsLadder#IAC2016 Attendee 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Still going! And bringing a recent convert with me! :D

[–]encom 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'll be attending IAC 2016!

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

#32 then? Hope you all join the Facebook group, Attendee thread, meetup and post about all of this!

[–]Zucal[S,M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Added! :)

[–]thru_dangers_untold 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sept 20th - Iridium NEXT was supposed to fly today... :(

[–]AppleNext 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe it would've been delayed anyway, because of wildfires

[–]gauss-descarte 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I will be attending IAC!

Paging /u/EchoLogic Zucal (sorry).

[–]bflipped 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll be at the IAC! Arrive late on Monday and will be there through Friday. Paging /u/EchoLogic

Thanks!

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Official announcement of livestream: http://www.iafastro.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/IAC-2016-Live-Webcast-of-all-Plenaries-Available.pdf
Link to livestream: http://livestream.com/accounts/4426843/events/6315496/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfoAndActivity=true&autoPlay=true&mute=false

This could be added to the links above, or obviously the T-1 day thread

[–]Ic3Z3r0 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm going to the IAC as well.

[–]Zucal[S,M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Added!

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, you are number 28 now! Amazing! - mods, add it to the list :P

[–]Kharjor#IAC2016 Attendee 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

/u/EchoLogic Mexican going to IAC!

[–]AP246 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Shit, I'm gonna be away with limited internet access when it happens.

I'll still have my phone though.

[–]Zucal[S,M] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Heads up: tomorrow (Sep. 20th & T-7 days) is the last day to RSVP for the meetup and register your attendance here.

[–]MrButtons9 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

A friend of mine, who literally lurks this sub over the shoulder, will be going, and wants to meet ya'll!

[–]EchoLogic#IAC2016 Attendee 27ポイント28ポイント  (13子コメント)

Well, I've started packing...

[–]factoid_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nervous about a cancelation? Or have they confirmed it's still on. I would assume at this point Elon would have given them the courtesy of canceling if he planned to do so.

[–]EchoLogic#IAC2016 Attendee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

At this point I've got so many other interesting things planned so I'd be disappointed, but not totally put out if Musk made a no-show. I'm confident it's going ahead now regardless.

[–]Ambiwlans 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Musk tweeted the IAC like 2 days ago. So that's pretty unlikely.

[–]factoid_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cool. I also just saw a minute after I posted this the post about live streaming the events, including Musk. So definitely seems to be on.

Hoping for at least a quick nod to the fire.

[–]soldato_fantasma 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm not saying that you have to do it, but it would be cool if you could take some pictures (or even videos) on all your trip there, from start to end, and not only the conference itself. Maybe /u/TheVehicleDestroyer and all the others going there could do that too. This way we that can't go there can feel what it is like to be there. Thank you!

EDIT: typos

[–]EchoLogic#IAC2016 Attendee 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

I will absolutely do this! I'll take photos/video all the way from my last lab at university in Wellington all the way to IAC :)

[–]positron_potato 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is going to sound weird but do I know you? I'm in fourth year maths/physics at Vic.

[–]EchoLogic#IAC2016 Attendee 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't attend lectures (I work 9-5!), so probably not! I'm second year software engineering. Ping me if you wanna' catch up sometime over a beer dude.

[–]positron_potato 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cool! I had a few friends in swen, but they all got jobs are off making bank. No such luck for us science folks. I might take you up on that drink some time, but things are pretty full on right now. Chur.

[–]TheBlacktom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Heck, as a European even Wellington is interesting for me :)
Every update is welcome, will keep us hyped through this week!

[–]MarcysVonEylau 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

r/SpaceX Meetup Recap Video is a must!

[–]soldato_fantasma 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Awsome! Thanks!

[–]Bananas_on_Mars 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hello everybody,

I've thought wether it would be possible to repurpose the LOX tank on the ITS to living quarters during Mars transit. Of course the LOX would need to be split into 2 tanks so there is storage for the landing burn, but it might be a good idea once you have a hundred people on board...

There is also the problem of organic contamination, but that could be handled.

[–]Martianspirit 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is never a good idea to repurpose a propellant tank, be it methane or LOX temporarily. Those tanks will be needed for propellant on the flight back and won't be clean enough to be safely used again.

This has been discussed multiple times.

[–]Malky_10 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I always had suspicion that organic contamination would be (huge) problem. Thanks for confirmation!

[–]sarafinapink 19ポイント20ポイント  (16子コメント)

Musk just confirmed the new name will be Interplanetary Transport System (ITS) in a tweet. Here's the original: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/777325549442232320?lang=en

He later replied to someone confirming that is the official new name: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/777330011703566336?lang=en

[–]nicochunger 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yes, and all posts realted to this are being deleted... I don´t know why, seems like quite big news for a community which came to love the MCT (ITS now)

[–]-Aeryn- 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It looks like there have only been 3-4 posts approved in the last 48 hours(??)

[–]daronjay 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Mods reckon its just gonna be a go nowhere thread, full of name speculation and the like. Elon is just not being serious and scientific enough for this sub, we need to tell him to lift his twitter game

[–]pmsyyz 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Heh, the Wikipedia article was renamed right away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_System

[–]MarcysVonEylau 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I still think that MCT and ITS are 2 different things. MCT is a manned stage, and ITS is a rocket carrying not only MCT, but also regular payload.

[–]pmsyyz 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

uhh, did you not read Musk's recent tweets? MCT has been renamed to ITS. They are the same thing. The rocket lifting the MCT/ITS is currently referred to as BFR, possibly "Millennium" based on a recent Musk tweet.

[–]MarcysVonEylau 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, BFR might be just a booster name, And ITS is a whole system for cargo and people, so - 2nd and even 3rd stage + MCT (ICT?) on top. That's how I see it.

[–]daronjay 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, reckon the mods made the wrong call on this one.

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