全 114 件のコメント

[–]21307 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

In 2013, when the Supreme Court was considering whether to uphold the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), Bill and I explained publicly how and why we became strong supporters of marriage equality. Bill, who signed DOMA nearly twenty years ago after an overwhelming vote in Congress, called the law a discriminatory vestige of a less tolerant America and urged the Court to strike it down.

[–]helpmeredditimbored 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

When did Hillary vote for DOMA ? She was First lady at the time it became law and couldn't vote on it

[–]xbettel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's just the deplorables brigating. Ignore the trolls.

[–]anarchistbitch 34ポイント35ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you would go back to /r/The_Donald and not raid /r/lgbt, we'd appreciate it.

Sincerely, a person who read through the discord chats and knows exactly what you're doing; and who once was a member of /r/The_Donald with thousands of points worth of karma who knows the subreddit's plan.

It's not going to work. Save yourself the time, please.

[–]21307 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you have any more information you should probably notify the mods of any other subs they plan to brigade.

[–]anarchistbitch 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'd say

Etc. Wouldn't even be shocked if they hit /r/fatlogic and related sociopolitical subreddits saying that a Clinton Presidency would be a vote for "fat acceptance"/"fatlogic" or the thing that the subreddit doesn't like.

They plan on making posts like these to sway opinion and make the subreddits an advertisement source. So, they get attention and upvotes while your subreddit gets spammed with political advertisements and unrelated posts.

Reddit will be a mess by election day, mark my word. According to a /r/The_Donald mod video on Youtube, Reddit mods have already had secretive meetings with /r/The_Donald mods, actually praising them, so clearly the system is larger than what most people think.

[–]IllCaesar 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

They might try to hit up a few trans subs as well.

[–]anarchistbitch 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much any sub about social perspective, lifestyle, race, or orientation.

[–]Tapeworm_fetusPassion, Love, Sex 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

"I'm not saying double down or ever say it again. I'm just saying that she's not going to want to say she was wrong about that, given she and her husband believe it and have repeated it many times."

[–]c3o 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you check the email thread (though it's a bit confusing), you'll find that "it"/"that" here refers to Hillary's previous statement that the Clintons believed at the time that DOMA was necessary to prevent an anti-gay marriage consitutional amendment:

you're not going to get her to disavow her explanation about the constitutional amendment

The WaPo fact checker says evidence for that threat is slim https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/28/hillary-clintons-claim-that-doma-had-to-be-enacted-to-stop-an-anti-gay-marriage-amendment-to-the-u-s-constitution/

Be that as it may, it's false to construe that quote as some kind of evidence that HRC doesn't believe in marriage equality – on the contrary. It means she believed, possibly incorrectly, in a threat to marriage equality that was so serious it needed to be mitigated with a (bad!) compromise.

The claims in this submission's title are just not supported by the email thread.

[–]TwilightVulpine 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Where facts and beliefs clash it's difficult to say what is true since nobody has access to anybody's mind.

But that DOMA "compromise" argument is ridiculous. It just sounds like doublespeak. "We ban marriage equality to protect marriage equality".

There is no more reason to believe she thought that was beneficial to the LGBT cause than that it was detrimental. But the result is that she supported DOMA.

[–]c3o 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, but that's also not what anyone in that email thread is arguing. All I'm saying is this submission misrepresents the link; if you believe her reasons to support DOMA back then were knowingly disingenuous then by all means have that debate, it's just not supported by those emails.

[–]page_one 23ポイント24ポイント  (5子コメント)

Where in the source is this stated?

[–]HelloOperator3 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

"given she and her husband believe it and have repeated it many times." ctrl f it

[–]helpmeredditimbored 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

I read this as them believing that signing DOMA was the right move at the time, not that they are against gay marriage.

[–]page_one 30ポイント31ポイント  (2子コメント)

From what I've researched on this subject, there was talk of a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, which would have been able to pass at the time. If DOMA was rejected, then the amendment would have happened, and would have been considerably more difficult to later repeal.

When you look at how things work in politics, DOMA isn't as damning as one would imagine. Something anti-gay was going to happen, and this was the best of the worst.

The same email you cite as your source also says that Hillary does not want to double down on this event, and mentions her opposition to the bill once it went to court.

[–]NoFunHere 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

From what I've researched on this subject, there was talk of a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, which would have been able to pass at the time. If DOMA was rejected, then the amendment would have happened, and would have been considerably more difficult to later repeal. When you look at how things work in politics, DOMA isn't as damning as one would imagine. Something anti-gay was going to happen, and this was the best of the worst. The same email you cite as your source also says that Hillary does not want to double down on this event, and mentions her opposition to the bill once it went to court.

We have to be careful when rationalizing legislation that restricts human rights by saying that another alternative could be worse. An example I will give is another Clinton gem - Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Bill was able to collect some points, look like he was catering to gay rights, by having something that, on the surface, looked like he was progressing human rights.

But, as somebody who was in the military at the time, it was politics without any substantive change in practice. Upon entering the military, they couldn't ask if a person was a homosexual. Great, you don't have to lie to get in. However, people were still kicked out for being caught with their boyfriend. People who might have confided in a friend that his roommate was actually his lover were gone. If a letter back home was found and read, a man writing his letter to his boyfriend was kicked out. Even a few too many beers at a party could expose secrets that end your time in the military. You no longer had to lie to get in, but it kept firmly in place the more difficult part of living a lie to stay in.

So, with no real change in policy but lots of hoopla over the politics, DADT was kept around far too long. "We quit asking them, what more do they want?" One could argue that the "compromise" caused longer suffering than if the progressives would have just held out for something of substance.

The same goes for DOMA, in my opinion.

[–]xbettel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Before DADT it was way worse. There were witch hunts searching for gays. Clinton administration actually tried to open the military to gays, but the congress opposed and DADT was the only compromise they could do it. If he had tried, congress would veto it anyway.

[–]anotherbrainstew 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

Is this a sub full of straight people kinda like 2x is full of men and black people Twitter is mostly white people? That's certainly the vibe im getting in this thread.

[–]SokkaStark 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lots of people from the_donald and other places in this thread, you can check their history.

[–]anotherbrainstew 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those bastards, I should have known. They wanna ruin every sub.

[–]SokkaStark 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're trying to hit this pretty hard, there's multiple threads in the_donald about this and how any gay person supports Clinton is stupid. I can't imagine how they rationalize their own candidate being publically against gay marriage versus this.

[–]NoFunHere 36ポイント37ポイント  (25子コメント)

"You have to have one position in public and a different position in private." - Abraham Lincoln, apparently

[–]helpmeredditimbored 20ポイント21ポイント  (24子コメント)

First of all where in this document chain does it say that she is against gay marriage? The only thing I see is that they continue to believe that DOMA was the right move at the time in the mid 90s. We can argue about that all day, but there is nothing to suggest either in this email chain (or in her public record) that she is against gay people.

Also being privately against something is not the same as publicly against something, at least as a politician. As an example her running mate, Tim Kaine, is privately opposed to abortion because of religious reasons, but still supported it while in public office. He is also personally against the death penalty, but he didn't let his personal opinion get in the way of doing his job as governor. Politicians should publicly reflect their constituents, even if they may have a differing view from them privately.

[–]CaptainOctavia 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

And mike pence wants to divert aids funding to conversion therapy.

[–]OllieGarkey 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Be extremely careful.

Wikileaks E-Mail dumps often contain malware. The recent leaks pertaining to the 2016 race also appear to have been doctored by someone before they were sent to Wikileaks, so take this with a grain of salt.

And make sure your antivirus stuff is up to date.

[–]IllCaesar 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

tl;dr Those working under Clinton finding ways to spin her support of DADT and DOMA. Clinton never is actually quoted saying anything, rather, they're working under the assumption that she is still opposes same-sex marriage, at least personally anyways and that she may be reluctant to disavow her previous positions, particularly in regards to how it might look like her trashing his beliefs. Further, they go on to imply that her "evolution" on the issue is illegitimate and that her gay friends who supposedly brought her around on the issue don't actually exist. That said, nowhere is anything implied that she would work against LGBTQ people in an official capacity.

[–]c3o 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

they're working under the assumption that she is still opposes same-sex marriage

They go on to imply that her "evolution" on the issue is illegitimate

I'm not getting anything like that from the thread. They flag that the media might prod for details of her evolution so the campaign should prepare, and they're working under the assumption that she stands by/won't recant her previous explanation of why her husband signed DOMA into law.

[–]IllCaesar -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

In regards to her opposing still...

To the extent we can, I advocate for owning that so that we can clean this up completely, rightly position her as a champion of LGBT issues, and make sure we move on from any discussion of looming amendments or her being involved in passing either DADT or DOMA. Without getting into the weeds, can we say that the broader point is that the country is in a different place now on LGBT issues -- and thank goodness it is -- and that she's so happy each policy has been placed in the dustbin of history?

and

but my two cents is that you're not going to get her to disavow her explanation about the constitutional amendment

and this

I think everyone agrees we shouldn't restate her argument. Question is whether she's going to agree to explicitly disavow it. And I doubt it.

with this bit being open to multiple interpretations

I'm just saying that she's not going to want to say she was wrong about that, given she and her husband believe it and have repeated it many times.

As for the illegitimacy of her "evolution" on the issue, it is implied here.

There is no way we have friends to back us up on her interpretation. This is a major problem if we revisit her argument like this. It's better to do nothing than to re-state this although she is going to get a question again.

Granted, it is open to multiple interpretations. I read this as referring to her change on same-sex marriage in general rather than DOMA specifically.

[–]9QuietLessons 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

I find the linked material interesting from a "see how sausage is made" perspective, but I don't particularly see the relevance to the election.

Given a choice between someone who holds less-than-admirable views but takes good actions, and someone who holds vile views and promises vile actions, I don't really see very much difficulty choosing.

[–]EpsilonMaleSJWcuck 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

While that's understandable, some of have the perspective that we should not let these people hold these issues hostage over us.

[–]warsie -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Trump personally isnt anti LGBT. He flat out said he would let trans people use bathrooms in his buildings.

Pence, on the other hand...cringe

[–]SokkaStark 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

On legislation he is, he's against gay marriage and he's for "religious freedom" laws which let people discriminate.

[–]HollowUkuleleChords 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trump gave a speech at a Anti LGBT hate group (value voters sumet). Make no mistake, he will not lift one finger to help the LGBT community & will appoint supreme court justices who will strip LGBT of their rights.

[–]artemis_suzuhara 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that really the case, though? Hasn't Trump stated both that he supports LGBT folks and that he would appoint judges in order to fight marriage equality? Trump has also stated that he believes the states should make the decision as to whether trans people can use the proper bathrooms, which we could argue is just a states' rights thing, maybe, but it's still a step in the wrong direction from the directive released earlier this year. As far as I can tell, he bounces back and forth depending on the audience, which is why I'd really like to have the question asked to him directly during a debate.

Now, Pence...is definitely anti-LGBT.

[–]ProfSnugglesworth 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trump's largesse to the LGBT+ community is extremely limited. Pence might be more vocal and consistent on his disgusting views, but Trump has already said that he would appoint judges to the Supreme Court to overturn gay marriage, and has repeatedly thrown the community under the bus while courting the religious right. Trump isn't personally anything unless it gets him a vote.

[–]ryguyrun 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

He isn't? He's so incoherent and inconsistent I don't know how anyone can tell. He's running on an extremely anti-lgbt platform and chose and extremely anti-lgbt VP. He's promised to do some really shitty things to the lgbt community if he become President.

[–]9QuietLessons 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trump's actual views on anything are very difficult to determine, since he routinely says so many different and contradictory things. What matters, though, is that he's running on a party platform that is extremely anti-LGBT (the most explicitly anti-LGBT in history, actually) and has promised to appoint justices and pursue policies that will undo all the work of the last several decades.

So his personal opinions, assuming he actually has convictions and not simply whims of the moment, don't really matter. He's already stated that he's going to gut everything that protects us. That's enough to be considered anti-LGBT in my book.

[–]Wild_ZevaCertified Human Being 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

He said that initially but then walked it back by saying "It's a state issue".

[–]xbettel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He said he would overthrow all executive orders protecting trans people.

[–]xbettel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The deplorables are attacking. Please ban those pieces of shit

[–]SokkaStark 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Does this really change anything? I honestly don't think Donald is against gay marriage personally like says he is, and maybe she is personally against but he wants to nominate people who will overturn the ruling and she wants to nominate people who would keep it. She's publically for pro-LGBT legislation, her voting record backs that up. I can't see this changing anything, work case is that people think she's against it, but her opponent openly states he is.

Edit:Seems to be a brigade from the_donald, I don't get why they would think this would make people support him, he's much worse on gay rights than she is.

[–]HollowUkuleleChords 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're butthurt you can't be swayed by this very minor detail. They thought they had a smoking gun. They're idiots.

[–]___OccamsChainsaw___ 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Who cares. She's going to be an elected leader. What matters is only the public policy. Only that, nothing else. Will she rubber-stamp anti-LGBT legislation from the congress? Will her SCOTUS appointments be hostile to the expansion or protection of LGBT rights? Will she promote an anti-LGBT rhetoric on the national scale or let it go unchallenged? If she dies in office, will her replacement be literally our worst nightmare?

The answer is no. You know that, I know that, everyone with a brain knows that. There's no parity between the candidates and attempts to force one are really transparent and sad.

[–]SaorenArt, Music, Writing 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

frankly, if someone doesn't want to support trump, fine, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be very critical of hillary.

[–]21307 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe so, but Hillary is just one person, and this thread is proof that Trump's followers want to do exactly what they accuse Hillary of doing.

[–]xDarK_KitteHx -2ポイント-1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Hilary Clinton hates gay people

[–]helpmeredditimbored 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

based on what evidence do you make this claim ?

[–]SaorenArt, Music, Writing -5ポイント-4ポイント  (7子コメント)

she has stated in the past that she doesnt believe in gay marriage. if this is to believed, as well as her "public and private opinion" thing, she still doesnt

[–]SokkaStark 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

Donald Trump also doesn't believe in gay marriage, so does he also hate gay people?

[–]helpmeredditimbored 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

You know who else said they were against gay marriage? Bernie Sanders in 2006 and Barack Obama up until 2012. Based on your logic they are also anti-gay as well.

[–]Hippieremover -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

She hates everyone not voting for her.

[–]soucy -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love how people are grasping to find a smoking gun in these leaks.

These are campaign staffers talking about messaging. They may or may not represent her actual position. This kind of political sausage making happens all the time. The stuff that matters is what the candidate signs off on and adopts as the position and wording. If you work in politics at all you'll see people at this level make really bad suggestions all the time. That's why there is an entire team working through these things.

[–]beartrapperkeeper 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Serious question: Can you personally be against something, but not opposed to supporting it publicly? For example: I'm not a fan of guns, don't own them, don't want to, but I support anyone who wants to buy them and would never vote to take that right away from anyone.

[–]HollowUkuleleChords 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a woman who would never get an abortion. I support a woman's right to chose 100%. Not my body, not my business. And certainly not the government's business.

[–]bicycle 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes and you just have a great example. Also very relevant, I'm not gay but I support gay people having the same rights as any other human.