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Star Citizen's single player campaign will miss 2016 launch date (mcvuk.com)

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[–]Dariusraider 353ポイント354ポイント  (107子コメント)

This has been pretty obvious for a while now from for example the lack of marketing; has there even been a trailer for Squadron 42 past the cinematic teaser last year? I would imagine 4-5 months prior to release gameplay trailers are going to start rolling out steadily. Let alone dev videos that get closer to what looks like finished product.

EDIT: that is presuming(and as I have understood) that Squadron 42 is basically half of the full thing and not a somewhat lesser side project next to the open world. CIG isn´t going to just roll this out kinda quietly.

[–]ChristianM 86ポイント87ポイント  (104子コメント)

I got really excited when that trailer started, thinking it's the SQ42 one. Turns out it was another ship commercial and them asking for more money.

That being said, I liked the planetary tech. Especially the sandstorm and that they showed us the process of adding artistic input in the procedural generation.

I wish them good luck, but thank god I have Elite Dangerous to play until SC is ready.

[–]sp0ck06 92ポイント93ポイント  (83子コメント)

I got really excited when that trailer started, thinking it's the SQ42 one. Turns out it was another ship commercial and them asking for more money.

Can you imagine if EA did that?

We haven't barely any Mass Effect Andromeda gameplay, but here's a trailer for some $750 DLC!

[–]CBFisaRapist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Can you imagine if EA did that?

We haven't barely any Mass Effect Andromeda gameplay, but here's a trailer for some $750 DLC!

At this point, it's abundantly clear that Star Citizen gets to operate by its own set of "rules," happily engaging in an approach that we'd be throwing huge shit fits over if anyone else was doing it.

And people wonder why more and more people point out that SC has a cult-like fan base following it, absolutely dogpiling anyone who even suggests that maybe some of how this has played out is questionable or that, even worse, the game will never, ever live up to what people think it's going to be.

You'd think after No Man's Sky people would soften on this stuff, but it's been the opposite. They've doubled down even harder.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye [スコア非表示]  (48子コメント)

Except it should be noted that you can also get the ship in game without throwing real cash at it.

[–]tjhrulz [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

To be fair people hate it when mobile games do this, not quite the same because star citizen won't do shitty mobile gaming things like energy but who knows how much grinding it will take before you can get one of these several hundred dollar ships.

[–]BluShine [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

because star citizen won't do shitty mobile gaming things like energy

Nothing stopping them from doing that.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

They are also kinda useless without people helping you crew it, as well.

[–]tjhrulz [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

I thought you could use NPC's as crew? However while I have a copy of the game I don't follow it that closely and just watch major events so I could be wrong.

[–]Kommissar_Lyus [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

That is part of the plan but it is also worth noting that it would also increase the overall operating cost of the ship.

[–]Mitosis [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Discussions about these ships just blow my mind.

There is no context for any of this. You don't know how much grinding it will take to purchase one of these ships. You don't know how much effort it will take a whole crew to pilot them for actual in-game activities. You have absolutely no basis for the scale of operating cost increases for using NPCs, nor whether the NPCs will be fully effective. You don't even know what you would do with the ship in the first place.

It's like having an in-depth discussion about the rules of the imaginary game of a 7 year old.

[–]seshfan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Right, and if a 7 year-old started charging you $750 to play his imaginary game I'd probably approach it with the same amount of suspicion.

[–]WhoopTeeDo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hey, you be nice to Calvinball!

[–]gamebox3000 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Except instead of a 7 year old its a well respected industry veteran who have been incredibly transparent about the entire process.

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      [–]Thjoth [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

      Kind of reminds me of EVE. There's no multi crew there, but the largest, most expensive ships in the game pretty much can't be used solo without inviting disaster. Most of the time, the characters who fly said ships can't even log in without fleet support. They're also never allowed to exit the ship by their group, which is why they're referred to as "coffins."

      Unless you're a psychopath named Farasoloni, AKA patri9999omega, AKA "The Fastest Titan in the North." There are exceptions to every rule, I suppose.

      [–]Mitosis [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      Why is that, and what do said pilots do? Do they just log onto alt characters for the rest of their game-playing? I was under the impression it took a significant investment to be able to pilot such a ship in the first place, seems odd to just shelve the character afterward.

      [–]Thjoth [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      The super (supercapital) pilot is usually the alt. People will create characters specifically to fly supers and nothing else. A lot of people would train up a character for those with the sole intent of selling it (for ISK, not real money) on the character bazaar, which is a sanctioned method of transferring characters between accounts. These days, there are also skill injectors, which would allow you to make a fresh character into a super pilot instantly in exchange for a COLOSSAL amount of ISK. I'm not sure what the exact figure is, but I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit more than the super itself.

      Supers are usually funded by groups, and the pilot character who flies it is usually funded by the group as well and bestowed on a trusted member. It used to be that the pilot couldn't leave the ship because the empty ship had to be left in space. Now supers can dock in Citadels, and while I'm not sure if the empty super can be left docked as I'm not a pilot of one, most pilots are still left in the super 24/7 as there won't be time for them to go back and get their ship if it's needed. Kind of like how the American nuclear arsenal is held on 24/7 readiness because it would be a bit ridiculous if somebody had to dig some keys out and go in on a Saturday to launch the missiles.

      [–]nermid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Kind of like how the American nuclear arsenal is held on 24/7 readiness because it would be a bit ridiculous if somebody had to dig some keys out and go in on a Saturday to launch the missiles.

      sigh

      Another nuclear war. I've gotta go in. Yeah, I know I said I'd be able to go to the festival with you this weekend, baby, but I'm on call. We've talked about this.

      Just put on your lead jacket and go without me. With a little luck Peru will be molten slag by the time I even get there and I'll only be like 20 minutes late.

      We'll pick up some ointment for the kids' radiation burns on the way home, ok?

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            [–]Antith3sis [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

            Not really an argument until we know how long it'll take. I highly doubt you can earn it in game in half an hour. If it takes 500 hours of grinding and not buying anything else in game to save up, is that really acceptable?

            [–]cuddles_the_destroye [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

            I mean from what I remember once the game launches you can't pay real money for ships, unless they backtracked on that. All this is just (increasingly ludicrous) preorder bonuses.

            [–]ntn2 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

            They backtracked on that years ago. You can pay real money for in-game money, which you can spend on ships.

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              [–]hotweels258 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              People get angry at any hint of micro transactions from a major publisher. Just look at the hate for the new Deus Ex.

              [–]lofisystem [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              And it should be noted that this is fleecing.

              [–]Fyrus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              People would still stir up shit about it.

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                  [–]Dariusraider [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                  Yeah I´m 100% on board with Elite for now. It is currently not succesful in being the "everything in space" that both it and SC are seemingly aiming to be, but ED is great in a lot of ways already, development isn´t slowing down and I much prefer their development/business model to SCs hype and attempt to make the whole thing at once. Hopefully both get there though.

                  [–]Shasve [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

                  How is Elite Dangerous. Ive heard a lot of mixed reviews, but it does sound good.

                  [–]ConcernedInScythe [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                  Elite Dangerous is most likely the best, most fun spaceship handling simulator ever made, coupled with a lot of bland, samey open-world gameplay and often frustrating and grindy progression mechanics. On the whole I think it's good, but it's very sensitive to your initial perceptions; if you go in expecting this very deep world full of gameplay systems you're more likely to be disappointed. It's Galactotruck 3302 with very fun dogfights, approach it with that in mind and I think you'll find it rewarding.

                  [–]BluShine [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  Came here to say this. It's basically Euro Truck Simulator with spaceships. If they added a random chance that your space truck will get blown up by pirates with high-level ships and you'll lose all your money. Also, no bank loans, so you have to grind lots of €5,000 trucking jobs until you can afford to buy even an entry-level €100,000 truck.

                  The game looks really pretty, though. So you can have fun for a while just flying around in space until someone blows up your ship.

                  [–]ChristianM [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                  Slowly getting better and better. They've had their own delays on the last big update, 2.1, but 2.2 is in beta right now and it's pretty awesome. It's a lot of fun to launch your fighter and have your mothership follow you around while you try to survive.

                  This video showcases a lot of stuff coming with 2.2.

                  Although Horizons is still not fully released, we're barely half way through this season of content: http://i.imgur.com/mtZChxD.png

                  The next one, 2.3, will be big. Everyone wants to see how they handle multi-crew. Although we won't be able to walk around our ship until the next season, most likely.

                  [–]Figgots [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  Yep, I've spent hours just looking at asteroids, shooting at asteroids, and collecting metals to save up money to get a bigger ship to do all that faster. I fucking love it, though.

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                    [–]thisistheslowlane [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    Eurotruck Simulator in space. I hated it personally. There's nothing much to the game at all.

                    There was an expansion that allowed for planetary landing, not sure what the community thinks of it. From the sounds of it, hasn't added much.

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                          [–]wingspantt [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

                          If Star Citizen comes out and lives up to its claims, I will gladly pay for it.

                          If it comes out and falls far short of its insane goals, who will be surprised?

                          If it never comes out, no surprises there either.

                          [–]PM_ME_MESSY_BUNS [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                          If it never comes out, no surprises there either.

                          I follow it but not very closely, and I haven't backed it. So I'm not invested. But it would be a huge surprise to me if it never came out, and frankly it would be infuriating. They've taken almost $130 million of peoples' money. They have hundreds of employees. At this point, it's not a crowdfunded indie game. It's a triple-A game. There are absolutely no excuses if this doesn't come out.

                          [–]procrastinating_atm_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          If it comes out and falls far short of its insane goals, who will be surprised?

                          Hahah. Maybe you are unacquainted with the fervor of the enthusiasts that follow games before release.

                          People became unhinged when No Man Sky wasn't the game they'd fantasized about. There are still threads getting upvoted about it.

                          [–]Foamloller [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                          I'd rather have a polished Squadron 42 in 2020 than a buggy unpolished unfinished project in 2017. I spent like $45 years ago and I still think it was well worth it, just to get the game made whether it's bad or not.

                          Also consider that better hardware will exist the later it releases. So you'll be able to play the game better for a lower hardware investment.

                          [–]Mr_Wayne [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                          Problem is, the money everyone spent a few years ago won't last them indefinitely. The longer they go the more they'll need an infusion of new cash which will be harder because delays discourage people from spending money.

                          [–]semt3x [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                          They already have $125M of free money, they are still getting more. Maybe this dries up a bit but they will easily be able to get investors in at this point.

                          [–]Ancillas [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          Just beware the Duke Nukem Forever slippery slope.

                          [–]stefmor90 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                          How was spending $45 for a game you can hardly play worth it at all? I know there is the potential to save $15 assuming the game launches at full game price, but you also have a potential of losing $45 if the game is a complete flop or otherwise disappointing.

                          [–]Foamloller [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          I'm not spending the money for the game, but to help fund the game. But it includes the game when it launches as well. Until then, I can play the demo if I'd like.

                          [–]kit_carlisle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          Called it a long time ago with my group of friends. Re-iterated the fact to them post No Man's Sky.

                          The game is too grandiose, and cannot possibly live up to it's hype.

                          Sorry.

                          [–]CBFisaRapist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          You are as likely to see George R.R. Martin finish the Song of Ice and Fire (aka Game of Thrones) series as you are to see Star Citizen actually come out as a complete game and be what they claim it's going to be.

                          Interpret that as you wish.

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                            [–]SylverV 149ポイント150ポイント  (48子コメント)

                            A completely expected event, which they probably should have just announced earlier in the year. Personally, I'm not confident we'll see this until Q4 next year at the earliest, maybe even 2018. I think that'll hurt CIG in the press, but it'll probably make for a better game.

                            [–]36yearsofporn 59ポイント60ポイント  (20子コメント)

                            All that really matters is if they come out with a finished quality product. The biggest advantage of crowdfunding is not having to meet a quarterly deadline. The advantage from the developer's point of view is not having a money man having you by the balls regarding when the product will release or not.

                            The disadvantage from a consumer perspective is nobody having the developer's feet to the fire the way they do in a normal financing situation. The only way to tell if this is going to work out in the consumer's best interest is determined by the final product, whenever it's released.

                            I'm concerned they're able to generate huge revenues without having a finished product. It lessens the incentive to complete it. Which, again, may end up being a good thing if the final product is worthwhile.

                            It's all very unprecedented, so it makes it fun to follow, even if I'm not invested monetarily.

                            [–]SylverV 21ポイント22ポイント  (16子コメント)

                            The whole thing is a huge gamble, but I think it's a gamble worth making, as this is effectively a completely different model for game production. Given how saturated and largely stagnant (in terms of new IPs and gameplay evolution) the market is right now, I really do think it needs a little revolution in its business model. If Star Citizen produces, it'll be a game changer for the industry, for the better. But it's a big if. The worse thing CIG can do, in my mind, is bend to pressure and release a half-assed game. It's got to be something special, and that takes time.

                            [–]Reliant 29ポイント30ポイント  (3子コメント)

                            I don't think Star Citizen is going to be a game changer for anything with regards to game production. They're just taking advantage of the system that was already changed by Minecraft, DoubleFine Adventure Game, and Wasteland 2 that showed people like Chris Roberts how viable the crowdfunded market is. I think the vast majority of what SC is doing is a perfect storm that is unlikely to be repeated with any level of frequency.

                            Although Star Citizen is making use of crowdfunding really well with their community enagement, especially the regular use of video updates. Prison Architect is another project that people loved partly for those reasons as well, whose regular videos only started about 1-2 months before SC launched Wingman's Hangar. I do hope more crowdfunded projects learn from these projects, though I doubt few would be able to afford doing it at the same level as PA, let alone repeating what SC is pulling off.

                            [–]Rhendal [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                            I think /u/SilverV was talking about the scope and/or quality of the game itself as far as game production, not why they decided to go with crowdfunding. CIG could have easily cut corners to push out a game that could be good, but not nearly as ambitious as Star Citizen is aiming to be. I think that and their (more) open development model is what he meant by being a game changer in regards to game production.

                            [–]Reliant [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            The scope and/or quality is what I was referring to as the "perfect storm" that is unlikely to be repeated. They can only do what they did because of the budget, and crowdfunded titles reaching those amounts is not going to be the new standard for crowdfunding.

                            And I also talked about the open development model in my comment as well.

                            [–]ItSeemedSoEasy 17ポイント18ポイント  (10子コメント)

                            How is this a new model? Plenty of released games have done kickstarter now.

                            At the moment, if anything, star citizen is kinda one of the examples of it going wrong. It might work out, but at the moment, the scope has grown massively, they've missed release dates, the whole thing's a bit out of control. As a developer I can tell you it's classic Project Management fail and rarely ends well.

                            [–]CareerRejection 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

                            If anyone needs a poster child of scope creep, this would be it.

                            [–]Urbanscuba [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                            Admittedly the scope only creeped because people payed for it.

                            They straight up admitted that for every feature that got funded the dev time would increase accordingly and then people just started throwing money at it.

                            It's like if you hired someone to remodel a bathroom then decided you wanted the entire house remodeled, the yard landscaped, a pool put in, and a secret bunker built under the house. Obviously it's going to take longer but it's what the person payed for and wanted so you can't really fault the team doing the work.

                            [–]Rhendal [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            They also put each funding goal to a vote until the majority voted that they had enough features (at 68 million IIRC).

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                                  [–]dontjudgemebae [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                  It's a huge gamble that I haven't paid into at all. If the game is good, I'll but it for $60 when it comes out. If it's not, I won't have wasted any time following it's development.

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                                    [–]LegElbow 34ポイント35ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                    Honestly, Spring 2019 would be just a few months after 2018 anyway so that wouldn't hurt either.

                                    As a backer, for me the line is drawn in the 2020s. Because then we're in a different decade!

                                    [–]SylverV 14ポイント15ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                    This is the right attitude. You almost can't be disappointed with that timeline in mind!

                                    [–]BlutigeBaumwolle [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

                                    This is Star Citizen we're talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't ready by 2020.

                                    [–]moonerdooder [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                                    I backed in 2012 expecting it to be done a couple more years from nowish. Game of the decade material if they pull it off.

                                    [–]50653 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                    Only question now is, which decade?

                                    [–]UpboatOrNoBoat [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                    Game of the decade material

                                    If it takes that long it'll be on an engine that's 10+ years old and poorly optimized for whatever video drivers/cards are out at the time, which will most likely make it a piece of shit.

                                    The longer it takes them to develop the game, the more obsolete their platform becomes. Eventually you'll run into the Duke Nukem problem where your game would've been great 5 years earlier but in today's standards is pretty mediocre.

                                    [–]Canadave [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                    Not to worry, I heard it was confirmed recently that the game would be released shortly after The Winds of Winter comes out.

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                                      [–]DigitalMocking [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                      Why do people keep up with this narrative? Chris Roberts has a horrible track record of actually finishing games. He had to be fired by Microsoft from his last game development position because of scope creep and an inability to finish the game.

                                      Why in the world would SC be any different? He's got near unlimited funding it would seem, every time there's a new concept for a ship (not even a ship, just a picture of a ship) people throw money at him.

                                      [–]UpboatOrNoBoat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                      Sunk cost fallacy. People invest a shitload of money and don't want to admit it was a waste.

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                                        [–]ntn2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                        If this game is out before 2019 I'll be shocked.

                                        As far as this being a "completely expected event," tell that to all of the people who downvoted me for being skeptical about it a few months ago.

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                                          [–]Drigr 411ポイント412ポイント  (275子コメント)

                                          It's unfortunate, but I think we can all agree that we would rather them delay and release a better product than Rush it out and we end up with shitty AI

                                          [–]Dontshootimgay69 99ポイント100ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                          Is shitty AI your main worry with this project? Mine is everything else.

                                          [–]Cacafuego2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                          I agree, even with what tech that's supposedly common between the PU and SQ42 (the only stuff we've actually seen), nothing seems even close to being ready. Anyone who thinks AI or animations really are the only likely blockers at this point isn't paying attention.

                                          [–]TJ_McWeaksauce [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                          I'm fairly confident CIG will eventually release a pretty damn good single player game. Will it be revolutionary? I don't know. But I predict when Squadron 42 does come out, it'll make fans happy, and it'll make naysayers like myself admit that CIG actually produced something cool.

                                          However, I also predict that the MMO will implode. When you add multiplayer to a game, that makes things considerably more challenging. When you make a game that's massively multiplayer, you open a Pandora's Box of technical nightmares that causes even old, experienced, resource-rich studios to stumble. I don't think CIG will be able to handle the MMO challenge.

                                          After all, for years Blizzard had to battle networking issues with World of Warcraft. Despite having many years of previous networking experience thanks to the smaller-scale multiplayer of Starcraft and Warcraft, and despite all they learned from over a decade of running WOW, it wasn't until this year's launch of Legion that Blizzard had an expansion launch week that wasn't riddled with networking or other problems they had to scramble to resolve.

                                          Star Citizen promises to do things that have never been done before in any game. It's so complex in both scale and mechanics that it makes WOW look like Chutes and Ladders. And it's being developed by a collection of studios that is inexperienced with the technical challenges of building & maintaining an MMO. Hell, CIG didn't even exist as a AAA studio 5-6 years ago.

                                          If anything stands a good chance of causing SC to melt down, it's the extremely ambitious MMO. I'd be skeptical if CIG was a 20-year-old studio with 2-3 successful MMO's already under their belt. As a new team with zero proof they can make and maintain an MMO of unprecedented complexity, I simply don't think they can do it.

                                          I wouldn't mind being proven wrong in this case. But who knows how many years we'll have to wait to find out.

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                                            [–]Soft_Key 200ポイント201ポイント  (229子コメント)

                                            How long can this excuse be carried though?

                                            [–]nerfy007 69ポイント70ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                            Ask Dayz fans.

                                            [–]joef360 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            At least their great grandchildren will get to see the beta.

                                            [–]MiNiMaLHaDeZz [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

                                            The most loyal DayZ fans understand that the game will be done eventually.

                                            It's just going to take quite a lot of time still.

                                            [–]TheGazelle [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

                                            I never got into DayZ because it never seemed to actually go anywhere. Admittedly i haven't really payed attention... Have they actually been showing or saying anything about what they're doing?

                                            I vaguely remember some stuff where they decided to switch from a mod, to working directly with Bohemia on the standalone... then maybe something about upgrading the engine.. then.. nothing?

                                            I just checked the steam page and it seems like they're doing bi-weekly updates now, which is good, but does it look like actual progress or just the kind of "here's some more vehicles and cosmetic crap" that some early access titles end up getting into?

                                            Note: Not trying to bash it, genuinely curious as it was always something that interested me, but never seemed to be in a state that I'd enjoy playing (all the stories of rampant hackers, etc.)

                                            [–]MiNiMaLHaDeZz [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                                            The last stable update brought out the renderer finally which is probably the biggest improvement they made to the game since release in early access.

                                            Before the renderer people would get 20-40 fps in big towns depending on peoples hardware. Now people get 60-100fps with that same hardware and it looks better.

                                            There have been a lot of updates to the game in the past as can be seen here.

                                            Next update will bring a major overhaul of the complete sound engine, and predator wildlife (wolves).

                                            The one after that will have an overhaul of the whole player controller system that will greatly improve the ability to control your character.

                                            It's just that these updates take a huge amount of time to do (it's pretty much totally rewriting the engine), and some people don't quite understand the complexity of the task.

                                            [–]TheGazelle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                            Cool, thanks. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on it. I'm a software dev myself, so I totally get that shit just takes time, it's just that the last time I checked on the project, I don't think there had been any real updates in like a year (this was probably a year or two ago), and it seemed to be just another abandoned early access game.

                                            [–]MiNiMaLHaDeZz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                            Well to be fair, it can be quite hard to keep track of the progress if you don't actively keep track of the updates.

                                            There is the two weekly status report that contain a lot of info most of the times, and there are the trello updates too. The devs also frequently post on the DayZ forums and sometimes the DayZ subreddit.

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                                              [–]Noujiin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                              See for yourself then. You won't get an objective discussion about DayZ on Reddit :p

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                                                    [–]EnviousCipher 312ポイント313ポイント  (106子コメント)

                                                    Until its done. The fact is that SC is the most visible and transparent project in games history. It feels like its taking forever and its being delayed all the time because you're told it is, and you've seen it start from the beginning.

                                                    If it were any other game, you'd know it was being developed, then you'd never hear about it until 6 months to release and then they go on a marketing rampage and then BAM, the game is out and its a piece of dogshit.

                                                    [–]SyncTek [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

                                                    its being delayed all the time because you're told it is

                                                    Exactly this. People go off on this project because they missed internal deadlines that the company set for themselves to hit. All companies have internal deadlines and quite often these deadlines are missed. When these deadlines are rigid you get bad products that do not function properly.

                                                    The only reason people know about these delays is because CIG puts out tons of materials each week and each month in-depth detail about every aspect of the project.

                                                    You get the details on the concept.

                                                    The initial artwork and approvals.

                                                    The various development phases (white box, grey box and more)

                                                    Move of the a specific release candidate to groups of testers.

                                                    The live-ops team fixing bugs when the product goes live for everyone to try.

                                                    Every aspect of the game development is shown for people to see. So when there are delays to specific release candidate you also get notified.

                                                    People keep wondering why this product has so much hype and why people keep supporting the project?

                                                    CIG showcasing every aspect of development is the reason. That is why people are willing to continue supporting development and people are understanding about delays.

                                                    [–]VaginaPenisNetwork [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

                                                    Off topic, but this same exact effect is seen with the development of the F-35.

                                                    Previous aircraft were just as delayed, had just as much problems, and even killed pilots, but the internet didn't exist back in the 70's and 80's like it does today, so that kind of information wasn't as readily available to people.

                                                    [–]Hahahahahaga [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                    That might be a stretch... It's probably more the cold war mentality cooling off and switching terrorism to focus on bomb plots and religious extremism.

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                                                      [–]ConcernedInScythe [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

                                                      The fact is that SC is the most visible and transparent project in games history.

                                                      Nobody has seen any footage of Squadron 42 for a year.

                                                      [–]ntn2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                      B-b-b-but we get a fluff email once a month where they answer softball questions!

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                                                        [–]LobsterEntropy [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                        It's not, though. They promised they'd treat backers like they would a publisher - and the original two terms of services even promised a full financial accounting if the game missed its release date. But I can name tons of indie games that have been so much more open and honest in their development. It's crazy that a game that started development in 2011 still has absolutely nothing to show, especially at the biggest fan event of the year. (Remember when they skipped E3 to be able to show more at CitizenCon?) Chris Roberts has spent five years spending millions of dollars on Hollywood actors and mocap and selling ever-more .jpgs of spaceships and still doesn't even have a level to show?

                                                        The fact that he said that S42 levels are at "greybox or better" is especially crazy, because it means they absolutely knew there was no way S42 was meeting its most recent deadline. And yet they still constantly denied that it was being delayed as recently as a few weeks ago! Wouldn't real open development mean actually telling your fans the game's being delayed as soon as you know it won't hit the deadline? It's just insulting that they claim "most open development ever!" and yet we still don't know how many of the game systems will work, or have even seen a non-Morrow-tour trailer for S42.

                                                        The game's been in development for five years, and all they have to show is a heavily scripted, made-for-CitizenCon-demo where the Big Moment is just the sandworm from Dune (three mouths and all).

                                                        [–]Ihjop [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                        Did you see the planetary generation tech? That's not nothing...

                                                        Also. They had less than 12 people before Oct 2012. Can't really count that and they really started ramping up development in 2014 so really it's been in development for about 2.5 maybe 3 years when you compare it to an AAA game. And 3 years is nothing.

                                                        Greybox isn't anything to scoff at either.

                                                        [–]LobsterEntropy [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                        I mean, that's how development works! You start with a small team, begin pre-pro, and then steadily ramp up until the game goes gold. I don't mean to take you to task for this misconception - it's super common in the SC community - but Chris Roberts even said in an early interview that he'd started working on the game in 2011. Sure, you can quibble about the years and numbers of studios and people etc. etc., but the game has 100% been in development for long enough for it to be a concern.

                                                        More to the point, even if it's only been in development for x years, Chris Roberts keeps promising release dates and then completely missing them! Every game slips - that's not a surprise. But honestly, his career is defined by games that badly missing their deadline and then came out underwhelming. They had to kick him off Freelancer, and it still took two years to come out! At a certain point, you have to question where the line between "perfectionist" and "poor project manager" is.

                                                        (And yes, the planet stuff was cool - but some of the claims, like "no draw distance" I'm going to need to see some more details before I get too excited. What they actually showed was a glitchy-looking Crysis level with Tusken raiders and even the old Cryengine water-on-the-visor bug).

                                                        And hey, I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you or being unfair - I'm just frustrated by the community's willingness to shift the goalposts. "Well, it's only been in development for two weeks, OBVIOUSLY there's no reason to expect S42 to come out in 2016!"

                                                        I feel like people have been saying "they've only been REALLY working on it for x years" for, well, years - and the game is always x+1 year away. How long can they afford to keep reshooting mocap, redoing ("refactoring", sorry) systems, and pushing back the release date before the community revolts? Chris Roberts claimed he had enough money at, like, $5M and then again at $20M and then again at $66M that he had enough money to finish the game without taking in any more pledges. And yet they're still selling ships, and even incentivizing people to put in fresh money by offering discounts. If I had any large sum in the game, I'd be pretty worried right about now.

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                                                          [–]ChakiDrH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                          I don't think you can call it most visible or transparent after they waited to announce the delay of Single Player for a high profile event.

                                                          [–]throwawaynewday [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                          The fact is that SC is the most visible and transparent project in games history.

                                                          Odd way of praising a game that went silent for months on the status of SQ42 only to delay it indefinitely.

                                                          [–]StoppedLurking_ZoeQ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                          Although you need to be careful about feature creep. You don't want it to takes so long that some parts of the game will become dated, eg possible gaming mechanics that we just haven't experienced yet.

                                                          1-2 years is probably fine but if feature creep pushed it 2-4 that would be troublesome.

                                                          [–]ALoudMouthBaby [スコア非表示]  (41子コメント)

                                                          The fact is that SC is the most visible and transparent project in games history.

                                                          Its amazing how fans of the game keep repeating this as if it will somehow make it true. RSI refuses to release its budget despite being operated completely on fan money. Just because they release weekly promotional videos does not make them transparent.

                                                          [–]helacious [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

                                                          Your statement doesn't contradict his statement?

                                                          [–]SuperObviousShill [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                                                          Has any kickstarted game in development ever actually released that information?

                                                          [–]MorningFresh123 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                          As someone who runs a business, I can see about a million reasons why it would be insane for them to release the details of their finances. What a stupid comment.

                                                          [–]EnviousCipher [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

                                                          From a games development standpoint yes it does, no one but those who believe in the good doctor care about their budget. Its irrelevant to the big picture.

                                                          [–]ALoudMouthBaby [スコア非表示]  (19子コメント)

                                                          Its irrelevant to the big picture.

                                                          You think a company's finances are irrelevant to the big picture?

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                                                            [–]Moon_frogger [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                            I disagree that they the most transparent. First of all, you're comparing it to AAA publisher funded products. There is a whole market for kickerstarter, early access games and many of the developers are equally or even more transparent than what is going on with star citizen. Even Arma III, a non early access publisher funded game is at least as open about the games continued post release development as the star citizen guys. I'm not saying they aren't trying, clearly they are attempting to live up to their obligations to their backers in terms of transparency but this game doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are a ton of other early access projects with amazing developer transparency and communication. the idea that the star citizen guys and gals are doing something unprecedented in regards to transparency is pretty bollocks in my opinion.

                                                            [–]DigitalMocking [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                            What transparency are you talking about?

                                                            There's no milestone dates. There's no feature timeline. There's no design documents. There's no accounting of money spent.

                                                            There's plenty of concept sales though, for a game that was supposed to be fully funded with every single stretch goal paid for 63 million dollars ago.

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                                                              [–]polyinky [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              It's a reason, not an excuse.

                                                              [–]deadbunny 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                              Admittedly I got into giving SC money quite late in the game but the way I see it is that I gave them $60 for a game in 10 years (not even joking). For the things they are shooting for if they pull it off it'll be amazing, if they don't then meh, they seem to be giving it a good go. I've spend $60 on worse ;)

                                                              [–]vennox [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              I backed really early for about $80. I already got so much entertainment (weekly shows, gameplay, presentations ...) out of it, and the money is gone for about 4 (or 5?) years I don't even care anymore. I'm keeping up to date via the subreddit and love every update they make.

                                                              I'm certain it will release sometime in the far future and at least be OK. I'm looking forward to that day.

                                                              [–]Kromgar [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              2012 pledges began.

                                                              2013 the development studio was made.

                                                              From then on they have been reprogramming cryengine to better support their design.

                                                              It took 5 years to make The Old Republic MMO on a budget of 100-200 million. That may include advertising costs...

                                                              [–]homogenized [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              Until 2017.

                                                              [–]Vessix [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              Personally, I literally don't care. I think the game is already graphically enhanced enough to be considered solid for more than a few years to come. It's conception was only 4 years ago, and I wouldn't care if they spent a few more making the game play as close as possible to what we all want it to be.

                                                              [–]Fsuwatabug23 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              The difference is the guys behind Star Citizen have performed well above par in terms of communication with their community, at least compared to the norm.

                                                              I'm not holding my breath with Star Citizen, but they're one of the few companies involved with this sort of thing that I don't think are completely despicable. They don't seem to have just taken the cash and abandoned the game, there is actual work and development being done. Whether they'll meet their goal or not I don't really know.

                                                              [–]wingspantt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              I dunno people held out hope for Duke Nukem Forever for 10+ years.

                                                              [–]fullonrantmode -3ポイント-2ポイント  (71子コメント)

                                                              People keep telling me there are playable tech demos, so they're secure in their knowledge that they haven't wasted their $60 or $500 or whatever.

                                                              Pretty stunning to see the cognitive dissonance so soon after NMS.

                                                              [–]HeavenAndHellD2arg 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                              In what way nms and star citizen are handled the same?

                                                              [–]thatguythatdidstuff 47ポイント48ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                              if anyone was at all surprised that a game that promised everything that was made by a handful of inexperienced devs flopped and then try to say it is the same as a game made by over 250 devs with years of experience, many of who have created some of the best tech in the industry (the guys working on the procedural generation are some of the guys who created the cry engine), then those people are too uniformed on the issue for their statements to have any merit.

                                                              there are plenty reasons to be concerned and many things that can go wrong or be underwhelming come release. but the people comparing it to NMS clearly have no idea what they're talking about in the first place.

                                                              [–]Kelossi 91ポイント92ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                              The game is working though. They're constantly proving they're not full of shit or lying to us, and they're constantly making progress that is measurable and can be seen.

                                                              [–]HugoTap 30ポイント31ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                                              I think in large part because the $40-60 tech demo and time that's spent on that demo is far more enough to get their money's worth. They're playing the product in process. Part of the advantage here is a level of transparency and honesty that comes along with the development. I have no problem with paying that amount for this game given that there's an already functioning game there that, while alpha, is still very much an experience.

                                                              NMS lacked that same transparency and was wholly dependent on people's expectations on what the game should be. Then came the disappointment of what the final product ended up being based on those promises.

                                                              [–]DrexelDragon93 35ポイント36ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                              This has 0 to do with NMS. Star Citizen was a thing well before anyone cared about NMS. It literally should have no affect on what people think about Star Citizen.

                                                              [–]emotionalappeal 19ポイント20ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                              I don't understand how Star Citizen starting before NMS has any bearing on whether we should, in the sunset of NMS, look critically on products that promise the moon? Frankly I think discussing SC while ignoring the lessons taught by NMS is the very height of willful ignorance, and failing to view products critically is what got people into trouble with NMS to begin with. I'm fairly confident that's what fullonrantmode is referring to.

                                                              [–]xdownpourx [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                              True but we shouldn't need NMS to think critically of things promising the moon. We should already be doing this.

                                                              Also big difference is that a lot of the stuff CIG promises is in the game for you to play now. Multi crew ships. In the game. Ability to physically walk around a ship while someone else is flying. In the game. Ability to go from ship combat to fps combat with no loading screens, teleportation, and having your character actually physically doing all the moments to change states. In the game. It still has a long long long way to go. But some of the promises they made have already happened. Some of the others like Star Marine and having 1st and 3rd person sharing all animations so what you see and someone else sees are the same are right around the corner.

                                                              NMS just said they were going to have things and showed them in videos or not at all. Then released. That doesnt mean people shouldn't be ske0tical of SC just that it's a different situation

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                                                                  [–]U-B-Ware 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  The difference is we can see SC in its current form. Didn't get that with NMS.

                                                                  [–]wingchild 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                  so soon after

                                                                  Quite a few Star Citizen fans have backed their horse since 2012 - well before NMS had their first teasers out.

                                                                  I used to think the cult fandom of Star Citizen was really off its rocker, but ultimately decided that it's just the way they choose to spend their time and they're really not hurting anybody.

                                                                  I didn't invest in the Star Citizen Kickstarter and I haven't spent so much as a penny on the title. I'm not part of the club, so have no stake in whether the product succeeds or fails. And if I have private thoughts that it's a big ol' hype train that's failed to manage expectations for years, and continues to do so? Matters little.

                                                                  I think the people who wind up fighting the hardest about Star Citizen are folks who feel a desperate need to be right and to be validated. But hell, even if someone is right, what's that translate to in dollars and cents terms? Any real value you get out of that feeling is subjective anyhow.

                                                                  Makes it an odd fight for people to have, I think.

                                                                  [–]Rhendal [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                  I think the people who wind up fighting the hardest about Star Citizen are folks who feel a desperate need to be right and to be validated. But hell, even if someone is right, what's that translate to in dollars and cents terms? Any real value you get out of that feeling is subjective anyhow.

                                                                  As someone who has given money to the project, this is it exactly. There are some really diehard fans (and some of them can be obnoxious) that can't see any negatives about the project, but at the same time there are some really diehard haters that cannot see any positives.

                                                                  It sucks for people like you (who hasn't given money to the project) and I (who has given money) because when we do speak up about our praise or grievances we get lumped into one of the two groups depending on what we say. For instance, I don't like everything they're doing but I do have a lot of praise for the game and look forward to it, but I've been labeled as a "cultist" when I praise it by a lot of people who act just as culty about hating it and don't even realize it.

                                                                  [–]Effectx [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                  That might have made sense if No Man's Sky and Star Citizen had anything in common other than space ships.

                                                                  [–]StoppedLurking_ZoeQ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                  Ah you're comparing apples to oranges. No man sky did all that it could to say "This is what we want in the game" and not show progress. This game on the other hand is saying "We really want these features in the game" then showing fully explored functional concept brought to life and being very clear about there progress.

                                                                  No Man Sky proved you can't trust those developers but I don't see anything these devs have done to lose anyone's trust. In fact it's quite easy for anyone to follow there development but No Man Sky clearly hid as much as they can.

                                                                  [–]dart200 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                  Pretty stunning to see the cognitive dissonance so soon after NMS.

                                                                  i'm not really sure NMS would have anything to do with this. NMS didn't have literally years of community involvement/feedback in basically every aspect of the design.

                                                                  [–]powerchicken [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                                                                  That's an inane comparison. The development process is fully transparent, and those who buy into it know what they're paying for.

                                                                  [–]fullonrantmode [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                                                                  Do they though? Why are so many disappointed in the this latest reveal or lack of reveal if they "know what they're paying for"?

                                                                  A lot of people "know what they're paying for" but seem to be saddened by the constant delays.

                                                                  [–]xdownpourx [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                  You can be saddened by delays but that doesn't mean you think the product is a failure. I am sad we didn't see any SQ42 and that it's not coming out this year but if it's not ready it's not ready. It sounds like they have finished a large portion of the work. The content is locked down now and they just have AI and optimization to work on. I am willing to wait so we have some decent AI. It sucks we didn't get to at least see some gameplay but they obviously consider the AI work important enough that it's not ready to be shown

                                                                  [–]powerchicken [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                  They've been told from the beginning that the game will be finished once it's finished, and that dates are estimations. Complaining about the development of such a massive project taking long is as idiotic as complaining that the development of Dwarf Fortress is taking too long.

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                                                                          [–]sellby 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          This! They can take their time!

                                                                          [–]PiGuy3014 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                          After no man's sky and mafia 3, I think we all are right now.

                                                                          [–]Krypton-115 30ポイント31ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                          Mafia III isn't nearly the gasoline doused dumpster fire No Man's Sky is.

                                                                          [–]MiNiMaLHaDeZz [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                          I've been enjoying Mafia 3 way more than i had playing NMS.

                                                                          Sure, the graphics might be a bit wank, but the gameplay, story and music is good.

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                                                                            [–]Thenidhogg [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                            :/ things haven't been goin to great for incomplete games these days.. be careful Star Citizen take as long as you need to get 100%!!

                                                                            [–]DestyX [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                                            HOW ABOUT YOU STOP RELEASING GAMES THAT ARE NOT FINISHED TO MEET A DEADLINE?

                                                                            [–]GreyMouser73 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                                            IS NEVER A GOOD RELEASE DATE FOR YOU? HOW ABOUT NEVER, AS IN, IT WILL NEVER BE FINISHED.

                                                                            [–]Sybertron [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                                                                            I am confused why everyone ragged on DoubleFine for delays, but Star Citizen and Roberts Space Industries just seem to get a pass for their delays.

                                                                            [–]name_was_taken [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                            I had a whole long rant about tolerance and building it up over time written out, but then I realized the answer is much simpler:

                                                                            DoubleFine showed no progress while they worked. SC and RSI are showing constant progress as they go, which leads to people getting just enough feedback so that they don't start ranting and raving about the delay.

                                                                            Starbound did something similar. When they stopped producing updates for a while (after telling the community it would happen and why) people got ugly. It didn't matter that people knew the reason, it only mattered that they weren't seeing changes.

                                                                            Then, after the rewrite of major systems (which was the reason for the delay), the game was definitely worse than before the rewrite, which made the community even unhappier than before.

                                                                            If SC stops showing progress, they can expect the same treatment from their community.

                                                                            [–]jeremythelee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                            The alpha access for backers along with weekly patches and updates. They are gradually adding more content and fixing bugs simultaneously.

                                                                            [–]Ukani [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                            I know at least for me its because I really dont care about the single player. I mean its cool, and Ill enjoy playing it, but Im here for the PU, and so far things seem to be moving at a steady pace with PU IMO.

                                                                            [–]kontis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                            everyone ragged on DoubleFine for delays, but Star Citizen and Roberts Space Industries just seem to get a pass for their delays.

                                                                            Double Fine does not make one of the most ambitious games of all time.

                                                                            Star Citizen is a troubled project but it has also shown a technical breakthrough that wasn't even promised when it was pitched to the community. It already does, in its current form, things that no game ever did (and no engine was ever able to do) in the history of video games. A unified solar system scale with precision and fidelity allowing to model human hairs in the same space the entire planets are set is a revolutionary achievement on its own (and no, NMS, Elite, I:BS, Outerra and Space Engine do not do that). Doing that with mass multiplayer makes this project absolutely insane.

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                                                                              [–]FlyBlahTim 89ポイント90ポイント  (104子コメント)

                                                                              No shit. This game is just a very pretty version of the early access cycle that never ends. /r/games LOVES to deny this fact, but I doubt this game will even be done by 2020.

                                                                              People keep saying "yea, delaying it will make for a better game."

                                                                              No Man's Sky was delayed. Look what happened. Delaying does not guarantee anything.

                                                                              [–]Reliant 52ポイント53ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                                              Just imagine how much worse NMS would have been if it hadn't been delayed. Think about how much better NMS could have been if they had been able to afford another year of development.

                                                                              Delays don't guarantee a good product, but they almost certainly guarantee an improvement over the current state of the product.

                                                                              [–]iNarr 23ポイント24ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                              Ehhh...looking even further back, we have Duke Nukem Forever. People said all the same stuff, 'A delayed game is potentially good, but a game released too early is forever bad', but even after 10 years of delays it was still horrible.

                                                                              Then there's games like Half-Life and Half-Life 2, which benefitted greatly from 'delays' (put in quotes because Valve famously does not set public deadlines). The most recent DOOM game as well. Certainly there is something to be said for the 'it'll be done when it's done' mentality. It goes both ways. But it seems to me that people are being impressed by all the wrong things with Star Citizen, and are assuming it'll turn out great because of the wrong reasons.

                                                                              For example, from this con's demo you had the newest planetary tech, right? Looks unbelievably good. But as Roberts highlighted in his presentation, he hired most of the Crytech developers that built the engine this game is being developed in after the massive layoffs Crytech had a year or two ago. So as awesome as it is, that's something we already know they're good at. Planetary tech and engine development plays to their strengths, and doesn't really say much about how they'll fare when it comes to developing actual gameplay. We also know Chris Roberts can put together a decent singleplayer campaign given his history in the industry. So to some extent I think it's alright to have faith in the promises there, too. It'll probably get delayed a billion times, but as long as there's still money in the coffers, he knows what to do to make that part of Star Citizen a success.

                                                                              But as many have said, where's the gameplay, specifically the stuff that will be the bread and butter for the persistent universe side of the game? Yet again all we saw for cargo hauling (which is set to release soonish) is a powerpoint slide, same with mining and refining, as well as salvage after that. It's just promises of what's going to be worked on next, with no proof that the gameplay will in any way resemble the design docs. It's what worries me most, because Chris Roberts keeps saying it'll be as big as EVE, but more in-depth, more complex, bigger this, better that. But it's the one thing we don't know his studio(s) can pull off in a reasonable timeframe and with the talent they have. They've produced great work so far, but it's all the stuff we've expected them to be great at. Some of the hardest stuff is yet to come, and it's just been constant delays for the stuff that is going to take ages to develop anyway.

                                                                              I'm excited for this game like many people are, but I really have no idea when it's going to release in a mostly complete form, especially if none of the promises are scaled back. Impressive as the stuff we've seen is, I still think people have a reason to be worried.

                                                                              [–]Treyman1115 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                              Duke probably wasn't one continuous game, they probably started over. Even then the game was thrown around and at one point the devs were supposedly working from home

                                                                              That game was doomed

                                                                              [–]SC_Red [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                              Not to discount your other points but I hate it when people bring up Duke Nukem as a rebuttal. Gearbox had almost nothing to work with at the start and basically made the game from the ground up. So it wasn't really 10 years of delays more like cancelled for 10 years and then redeveloped in about a year with the same title.

                                                                              [–]Urbanscuba [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                              Ehhh...looking even further back, we have Duke Nukem Forever. People said all the same stuff, 'A delayed game is potentially good, but a game released too early is forever bad', but even after 10 years of delays it was still horrible.

                                                                              Duke Nukem is a terrible example because it was shelved numerous times and shuffled around to different studios. The game was probably remade from scratch at least twice during that time for new engines.

                                                                              But as many have said, where's the gameplay, specifically the stuff that will be the bread and butter for the persistent universe side of the game?

                                                                              Gameplay is generally planned early but developed late. You plan the gameplay, then build the engine and world to support it, then you put it in to fit any changes that were necessary in the engine and world. You can't have gameplay without an engine to support it, a world to put it in, and art/animation to convey it - at that point it's not something you can really release.

                                                                              They're still in the early stages of that gameplay implementation, and only because they decided to rework it to be better, but pretending that the later implementation is some kind of red flag is disingenuous.

                                                                              The best way to look at this game is support it if you want to, follow it if you want to, but not to have release date expectations. They're transparent enough that any game expectations will be pretty spot on since you know what you're getting ahead of time, but this is a new studio and we don't know what to expect time wise.

                                                                              That's why I'm waiting for a product to buy it. I know it's happening and funded, and that I'll know exactly what I'm getting when it releases, so at this point I might as well wait it out. It's not as if you're punished by waiting at this point, if you're not confident in it then wait for release.

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                                                                                [–]Zopo 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                Just because no mans sky sucked doesn't mean it's some magic crystal ball that you can point to to prove every game people are enthusiastic for is gonna suck.

                                                                                [–]Ascott1989 27ポイント28ポイント  (35子コメント)

                                                                                Difference being is that CIG are being entirely transparent about their development goals and progress. No one is being tricked or decieved

                                                                                [–]heyostembaugh 66ポイント67ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                No one is being tricked or decieved

                                                                                If you were being deceived you wouldn't know it....

                                                                                [–]IlllIIIIIIlllll 48ポイント49ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                Hiring a few hundred employees to work in offices in three different countries would be quite the deceit. I mean at that point you might as well actually develop the game.

                                                                                [–]MemoryLapse 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                I don't think he's saying its a smoke and mirrors thing, but more that they have organizational and creative problems that lead to feature creep and/or perfectionism, like Lionhead did. Difference is that Molenyeux had EA breathing down his neck and...look what the results were when he was free to take as long as he wanted.

                                                                                [–]mykepwnage [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                Kind of like the Moon Landing

                                                                                [–]Kelossi 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                We know we're not being deceived because we can see it!

                                                                                They're consistently proving that progress is being made.

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                                                                                  [–]sp0ck06 42ポイント43ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                                                                  CIG are being entirely transparent

                                                                                  lol what? Over a year ago, Star Marine was "weeks away." Then the entire thing was scrapped and here we are, another citizencon over with, and they've shown nothing. They have been teasing SQ42 stuff like crazy, Roberts said they would show a full mission, website said out in 2016, here we are, they've shown absolutely nothing. They've been working on this single player standalone game for years and have nothing they can show to room full of die hard SC fans? This isn't E3, people aren't expecting a completely finished project. You're telling me they couldn't throw together a teaser trailer or a little scripted gameplay sequence to demonstrate they are actually building a game underneath all the impressive tech demos?

                                                                                  They have missed every single self imposed deadline, some by literally years. Nobody really knows the state of any of the game systems. Nobody really knows how far along they are with SQ42. Star Marine is supposed to be releasing in the 2.6 patch, supposedly very soon, and they didn't show anything at CitCon?

                                                                                  This is not transparent development. They do a great job of connecting with the community but lets be real: nobody really knows where they are big picture wise, its all speculation and conjecture and reading into Roberts' often contradictory statements.

                                                                                  [–]ThothOstus 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                  If they don't release star marine in 2.6 all hell will break loose this time. I hope it doesn't happen but i also found the lack of anything related to 2.6 to be very odd

                                                                                  [–]TheLawlessMan 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                  lack of anything related to 2.6

                                                                                  A few weeks ago they showed off a very beautiful video that showed the FPS head bobbing crap was fixed. It looks like its coming along nicely.

                                                                                  don't release star marine in 2.6 all hell will break loose this time.

                                                                                  You are giving the community way too much credit here. No they won't. They won't give a single damn even if they get no word on why its delayed again. Oh and they will go ahead and buy whatever $500 ship goes on sale that day.

                                                                                  God that really was a day to remember. No FPS module but that expensive ship still went up... My issue isn't even with CIG. Its with the community making excuses for stuff like that.

                                                                                  [–]ConcernedInScythe [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

                                                                                  A few weeks ago they showed off a very beautiful video that showed the FPS head bobbing crap was fixed. It looks like its coming along nicely.

                                                                                  oh that's good, they're now up to feature parity with a barebones unity prototype

                                                                                  [–]ConspicuousPineapple [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

                                                                                  I get your point but that video and the explanation of how they do it is actually quite impressive and different from most games. It's not trivial stuff.

                                                                                  [–]ConcernedInScythe [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                                  It's like if you were making a generic space FPS and you were like "oh I'm sick of people cheating, we're going to model the hands properly". And then you spend months of development perfectly modelling the player's hands, every finger, every tendon, the exact physics of the grip on the gun. And then it keeps bugging out and making the gun fly out of your hands at lightspeed leaving a tangled mess of knuckles in its wake. So you spend another year of development creating unprecedented Hand Stabilisation Technology to keep the hands reliably on the gun and responsive to control inputs, and at last! You finally can show the video of all your efforts: the player holds a gun in his hands, and by clicking a button can make it shoot!

                                                                                  Meanwhile every other game in the world just uses a fixed animation for hands and it works exactly the same and takes a week.

                                                                                  [–]ConspicuousPineapple [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                                                  Except it serves a purpose here, they didn't do it just for shits and giggles. It reduces the amount of animations and models the game needs to load, and probably other benefits, I'm not too versed on the subject.

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                                                                                      [–]Effectx [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                      It's highly unlikely it won't release in 2.6 as that's basically the main feature of that particular patch.

                                                                                      [–]TheLawlessMan 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                      Yeah I hate seeing people post that lie. At first? Yes. They were being very transparent. Now they without a doubt hold back stuff especially when it isn't polished enough to inspire hype. Its all about gaining customer$. Not showing early builds and discussing their issues with old backers.

                                                                                      Funny thing is people will post that stupid lie... and then go right on about how they are happy that things like the recent Citizencon build of SQ42 not being shown are cool because they want to see "quality" content instead of incomplete. So are they transparent or not? Thats also WTF because we signed up for an alpha... We are supposed to be fine with not super duper quality content because we know its not done. Facepalm.

                                                                                      [–]TheGazelle 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                      Star Marine was a screw up, they've told us exactly why it was scrapped, and now they've recently shown us a lot of the work that's gone into it. How is that not transparent?

                                                                                      Who cares about self imposed deadlines? Shit like that gets missed all the time internally, you just don't hear about it from other games because they don't give you anything until the day they're forced to give you whatever they have, whatever state it's in (see no man's sky).

                                                                                      As for sq42, if you actually watched the presentation, they explicitly stated that they had been working to the last minute on the mission demo, but it wasn't ready. So what? Other games get delayed all the fucking time, you just don't hear about, yet you come in here and complain about cig not being transparent? Besides, you clearly didn't even watch it since you seem oblivious to the fact that they exactly did show a (probably partly scripted) mission teaser, it just want straight from sq42 and served primarily to show off the planetary tech.

                                                                                      Nobody really knows the state of any of the game systems.

                                                                                      That's a load of garbage. We know the state of everything they've made playable, and everything they've shown at gamescom and now citizencon.

                                                                                      Nobody really knows how far along they are with SQ42.

                                                                                      This is fair.

                                                                                      Star Marine is supposed to be releasing in the 2.6 patch, supposedly very soon, and they didn't show anything at CitCon?

                                                                                      What do you want them to show? They showed a squad and the low grav stuff when star marine was first coming out, then they showed the vision stabilisation stuff for first person recently, and we see the shooting in every demo. What else is there for them to show?

                                                                                      This is not transparent development. They do a great job of connecting with the community but lets be real: nobody really knows where they are big picture wise, its all speculation and conjecture and reading into Roberts' often contradictory statements.

                                                                                      Anybody who actually pays attention to the development and everything they release has a decent idea of where they are overall (or as close we can be without being acquainted with the nitty gritty details).

                                                                                      [–]MemoryLapse 24ポイント25ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                      I have no strong feelings either way, but this caught my eye:

                                                                                      Who cares about self imposed deadlines?

                                                                                      Answer: every successful business ever. You budget for a certain amount of employee time, office space, expensive 3D modeling software licenses... You get the idea. When you're off by 10%, you might survive. When you're off by 300%, you're taking an existential risk for your company.

                                                                                      [–]sp0ck06 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                      they've recently shown us a lot of the work that's gone into it.

                                                                                      They have? I saw 1 very basic demo from gamescom. Isn't 2.6 supposed to be out like very soon? Isn't that supposed to have Star Marine in it? You would think they would be able to demo a brief multiplayer fight or something.

                                                                                      Who cares about self imposed deadlines? Shit like that gets missed all the time internally

                                                                                      These are not internal deadlines, they are given to the public. Who cares about deadlines? I do, when I'm told something will be ready at a certain time, and then its not. They continue to hype the fanbase up saying things are almost ready, then miss the deadline. This has been happening for years.

                                                                                      Its totally ok to miss deadlines on a project like this and the fanbase expects it. What's not ok is purposefully misleading the community by teasing SQ42 stuff, saying they will show a full mission, then axing it at the last possible second... right after showing a Polaris sale commercial. Not cool.

                                                                                      As for sq42, if you actually watched the presentation, they explicitly stated that they had been working to the last minute on the mission demo, but it wasn't ready. So what?

                                                                                      I find it very worrying they have been working on this single player standalone for years and do not have even a tiny bit of gameplay they are ready to demonstrate. Not a teaser trailer, scripted sequence, nothing. And yet they claim all the missions are "greyboxed" and in "polishing" stage? I don't believe it.

                                                                                      Other games get delayed all the fucking time, you just don't hear about, yet you come in here and complain about cig not being transparent?

                                                                                      Yeah, because this entire project was sold as a transparent development. I am holding CiG to a different standard than most devs because they themselves set the standard.

                                                                                      And just telling people "oh we were working on it but weren't ready" is not "transparency."

                                                                                      We know the state of everything they've made playable

                                                                                      Yeah.. which is some dogfighting and extremely basic FPS component. That is not what drew a lot of people to this project. Personally I am interested in the non combat aspects of this game and we know absolutely nothing about any of those systems beyond the same design docs that have been on the website for years.

                                                                                      you clearly didn't even watch it since you seem oblivious to the fact that they exactly did show a (probably partly scripted) mission teaser, it just want straight from sq42 and served primarily to show off the planetary tech.

                                                                                      Are you talking about the planetside stuff? Yes, it was very technically impressive. The sandstorm and worm looked awesome as did the planet. But I'm sorry, that was more of a tech demo than gameplay. A very impressive tech demo, as everything similar has been for SC. But a tech demo none the less.

                                                                                      What do you want them to show? They showed a squad and the low grav stuff when star marine was first coming out

                                                                                      Are you talking about last year? The scrapped SM module?

                                                                                      then they showed the vision stabilisation stuff for first person recently

                                                                                      Yeah.... they got rid of head bob. That's good, and the unified animations are cool, but that doesn't exactly scream "This is being released in a month or 2." And its already over a year after we were told it was coming in "weeks not months." That is not transparency.

                                                                                      Anybody who actually pays attention to the development and everything they release has a decent idea of where they are overall

                                                                                      I have been paying semi-close attention the past year. I was under the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that we would be seeing a big SQ42 reveal yesterday with a full mission demo, and that Star Marine was coming in the 2.6 patch which should be very soon.

                                                                                      [–]TheGazelle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                      They have? I saw 1 very basic demo from gamescom. Isn't 2.6 supposed to be out like very soon? Isn't that supposed to have Star Marine in it? You would think they would be able to demo a brief multiplayer fight or something.

                                                                                      I'm referring to this, which shows off the vision stabilization and 1st-3rd person animation unification, which were the biggest technical hurdles to star marine.

                                                                                      We've had the ability to shoot each other in multiplayer ever since the persistent universe bit came out, which is why they don't really need to show that.

                                                                                      These are not internal deadlines, they are given to the public. Who cares about deadlines? I do, when I'm told something will be ready at a certain time, and then its not. They continue to hype the fanbase up saying things are almost ready, then miss the deadline. This has been happening for years.

                                                                                      First of all, I don't think they've actually given a solid deadline on anything since Star Marine last year. Second, these are very much internal deadlines. That they they say "we're hoping to have it ready by this time" and not "It will be released by this time". It's shown to the public because that's part of being very transparent around their development.

                                                                                      Its totally ok to miss deadlines on a project like this and the fanbase expects it. What's not ok is purposefully misleading the community by teasing SQ42 stuff, saying they will show a full mission, then axing it at the last possible second... right after showing a Polaris sale commercial. Not cool.

                                                                                      They weren't purposely misleading. If you actually watched the presentation, they had every intention of showing something off, and they were working on it right up to the last second, it just wasn't ready. I wouldn't be surprised if they release the demo the intended to show sometime in the next month or so once they get it ready.

                                                                                      I find it very worrying they have been working on this single player standalone for years and do not have even a tiny bit of gameplay they are ready to demonstrate. Not a teaser trailer, scripted sequence, nothing. And yet they claim all the missions are "greyboxed" and in "polishing" stage? I don't believe it.

                                                                                      They have shown something. They showed to Morrow tour at last year's citizencon. They've showed the Gary Oldman speech. The reason they're not showing more is a) they don't want to spoil anything, and b) they don't want to show anything until it's at final release quality.

                                                                                      When they say "greyboxed" that means they basically have all the levels modeled out. They still need to texture and light everything, put in all the scripts and everything else. The "28 missions greyboxed" means most of them are just entering teh finishing stages, and they were working on heavily polishing a single one of these.

                                                                                      Yeah, because this entire project was sold as a transparent development. I am holding CiG to a different standard than most devs because they themselves set the standard. And just telling people "oh we were working on it but weren't ready" is not "transparency."

                                                                                      So let me get this straight. You expect CIG to tell you more about when things get delayed because they're claiming to be transparent... and yet when they do tell you things are delayed, you complain that they're not being transparent?

                                                                                      Yeah.. which is some dogfighting and extremely basic FPS component. That is not what drew a lot of people to this project. Personally I am interested in the non combat aspects of this game and we know absolutely nothing about any of those systems beyond the same design docs that have been on the website for years.

                                                                                      ... Is the PU nothing? That's a bit more than dogfighting and very basic fps. As for all the other stuff, that's coming later, after they've got the framework needed for it done. There's a lot of background work going on to make those things useful.

                                                                                      They needed the flight to make getting anywhere possible. The universe to give you places to actually go between, persistence to make bringing shit from place to place worthwhile, a cargo system to actually give you something to haul around. All these things are building on each other. The reason we don't have anything like cargo or mining or search and rescue in the alpha yet is because the base systems required for those are being worked on. We have dogfighting and fps because those are the aspects that require the least number of background systems in order to be functional.

                                                                                      Are you talking about the planetside stuff? Yes, it was very technically impressive. The sandstorm and worm looked awesome as did the planet. But I'm sorry, that was more of a tech demo than gameplay. A very impressive tech demo, as everything similar has been for SC. But a tech demo none the less.

                                                                                      What would you consider gameplay to be? I agree the way they handled the camera was kinda lame, but there did appear to be someone actually controlling the character. He landed on the planet, got his rover out, when to an objective marker, got ambushed, killed the ambushers, stole their jet-bikes, went to the next objective marker, that got him another objective, he went there, killed some dudes... that looks like gameplay to me. That looks like what I can expect some quest on a random desert planet to look like.

                                                                                      Are you talking about last year? The scrapped SM module?

                                                                                      Yes. That's what they wanted star marine to be. As far as I'm aware, that's still going to be part of it. They didn't scrap everything they showed, they just scrapped the idea of releasing it anytime soon in favour of completing all the animation and netcode work first.

                                                                                      Yeah.... they got rid of head bob. That's good, and the unified animations are cool, but that doesn't exactly scream "This is being released in a month or 2."

                                                                                      Why not? They showed guy running around shooting stuff without getting motion sick. They showed him killing bots and getting hsot at and taking damage. We've been able to shoot each other in multiplayer for quite a while now. What else do they need for a basic arena shooter?

                                                                                      And its already over a year after we were told it was coming in "weeks not months." That is not transparency.

                                                                                      Give me a break. They handled that situation like ass, but have since told us exactly why they scrapped that. What more do you want. If they weren't being transparent, they wouldn't have told us anything, and we'd still be thinking this star marine is the same thing they were talking about a year ago, when in actuality, we know that's not the case.

                                                                                      I have been paying semi-close attention the past year. I was under the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that we would be seeing a big SQ42 reveal yesterday with a full mission demo, and that Star Marine was coming in the 2.6 patch which should be very soon.

                                                                                      The intended to show the SQ42 reveal yesterday. Unfortunately, Chris didn't want to show any SQ42 stuff (and this has always been the case) unless it was in a basically release-ready state. During the presentation, they explicitly said that they were working on the demo up to the last minute, but it wasn't ready yet, so they weren't going to show it. I wouldn't be surprised if we see that reveal sometime in the next month.

                                                                                      As for star marine, it is slated for 2.6, but as far as I'm aware, citizencon has always been about showing off new or in the works stuff. Star marine is much closer to completion, and we've seen the bits and pieces that make it up at various points in the past, so I think they wanted to show off some of the newer stuff that we haven't seen yet.

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                                                                                            [–]Griffith 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                            But it is a very pretty game that is in very early access. Who's denying that?

                                                                                            People keep saying "yea, delaying it will make for a better game." No Man's Sky was delayed. Look what happened. Delaying does not guarantee anything.

                                                                                            Exactly, delaying doesn't guarantee anything. Just remember that that goes both ways: it doesn't guarantee that the game will be good, but it doesn't guarantee that it will be bad.

                                                                                            Minecraft was delayed multiple times, look what happened, it turned into a multiple billion dollar product. Your opinion is correct, as long as you remember that it can go either way.

                                                                                            So far, as far as I've seen, the development of Star Citizen has been rather transparent. Almost to a fault I'd say. All of the strengths and problems of the project are well known and reported upon and the development and release cycle is public. That doesn't mean it will be a good game, that doesn't mean it will even be finished, but so far, outside of perhaps technical decisions people disagree with, I don't think there's anything immensely wrong with the project or how its being managed. Your opinion suggests otherwise and if that is in fact your opinion, I find it to be a hasty one.

                                                                                            [–]Ershany 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                            Why bring up No Man's Sky when Star Citizen is handled in a completely different manner?

                                                                                            [–]mRWafflesFTW -2ポイント-1ポイント  (43子コメント)

                                                                                            StarCitizen is a religion, like Scientology only perhaps more aggressive. The fans are so invested negative talk gets nuked. The above post has been true for a long time. It is painfully obvious this game is in a special development hell. The recent Kotaku articles finally supported the skeptics position, but the base doesn't care.

                                                                                            [–]tiger66261 58ポイント59ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                            The recent Kotaku articles finally supported the skeptics position, but the base doesn't care.

                                                                                            And yet the recent Kotaku article was one of the highest upvoted threads on the Starcitizen subreddit, with many top comments calling it a great piece of journalism. Most comments acknowledged the troubled development, just in a more positive light.

                                                                                            That's quite a bit different from the base not caring.

                                                                                            [–]GrassWaterDirtHorse 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                            The Buzzfeed network, including Kotaku, put out some really great investigative journalism, like the above piece on the development concerns and expectations about CIG.

                                                                                            Its just that most of what they put out isn't journalism.

                                                                                            [–]xX_Qu1ck5c0p3s_Xx [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                            Buzzfeed network

                                                                                            Kotaku is owned by the Gawker Network, which was renamed after Gizmodo or something.

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                                                                                              [–]shrekinator [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              Oh, you broke the circlejerk. Nice.

                                                                                              In all seriousness though, yeah, just taking a look at the subreddit right now will disprove /u/mRWafflesFTW's point.

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                                                                                                [–]TheGazelle 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                ... You didn't read those articles did you? They were about all the troubles they went through, how they dealt with them, and how things have improved and picked up over time.

                                                                                                Anyone who actually expected a company to grow from nothing to 300+ people in 3 countries working on a 100+ million dollar project without any problems or growing pains is living in a dream land.

                                                                                                [–]Sacavain 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                I'm fine thank you. No problem for me if you don't like Star Citizen.

                                                                                                [–]IlllIIIIIIlllll 20ポイント21ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                                                                                Special development hell? Have you seen the latest gameplay footage? Hardly "development hell" at all. It's just very ambitious and there is a lot of framework to develop which does take time. Maybe it does get delayed indefinitely, I won't deny that as I can't read the future but there is really no argument as to why this game is in "special development hell"

                                                                                                [–]mRWafflesFTW 4ポイント5ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                                                I've seen all the footage, and that doesn't change the expectations versus delivery. It's a beautiful tech demo that doesn't work yet. The game has been delayed for years and is off schedule. Additionally, the core game play loop, flying and shooting other spaceships, is not fun and hasn't been since Arena Commander debuted.

                                                                                                They should have developed like Elite and focused on the core game play then expanded out, but instead what you have is 3 separate games none of which are fun and a single player campaign way off schedule.

                                                                                                If that isn't development hell I don't know what qualifies.

                                                                                                [–]residentgiant 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                the core game play loop, flying and shooting other spaceships, is not fun

                                                                                                I've had more fun dicking around in the pre-alpha than I have with a lot of other recently-released games.

                                                                                                "I don't like it" =! "development hell".

                                                                                                [–]Kelossi 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                Elite has received nothing but criticism for being a shallow ocean. It's a boring game that needed a lot more time in the oven before it could have been said to be ready.

                                                                                                [–]TheGazelle 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                I've seen all the footage, and that doesn't change the expectations versus delivery. It's a beautiful tech demo that doesn't work yet.

                                                                                                How can you say it doesn't work when they literally show it working live and in real time?

                                                                                                The game has been delayed for years and is off schedule.

                                                                                                Delayed according to what schedule? There's no set release date, and they've learned from the early mistakes of giving internal target dates official release dates.

                                                                                                Additionally, the core game play loop, flying and shooting other spaceships, is not fun and hasn't been since Arena Commander debuted.

                                                                                                You not finding it fun has sweet fuck all to do with the progress of the game. I don't find cs:go fun, doesn't make it incomplete, and I think the thousands of people who enjoy it everyday mean a little more than a single redditors opinion.

                                                                                                Besides, you calling it the core gameplay loop shows how little you understand about the project. Space dogfighting is one of many things you'll be able to do. I don't care for dogfighting much myself, I intend to find plenty more to do.

                                                                                                They should have developed like Elite and focused on the core game play then expanded out, but instead what you have is 3 separate games none of which are fun and a single player campaign way off schedule.

                                                                                                By "expanded out", you mean charged full price for feature dlc that was intended to be in the initial release? If you paid any attention, you'd realize that they are focusing on core things first, they're just doing it right.

                                                                                                They started with basic flight and combat, then added in the basics of universe traversal and missions, then persistence. Pretty soon the core first person shooting gameplay is getting a full overhaul.

                                                                                                They're building all these core frameworks now, which doesn't look like much, but it means they'll actually be able to support everything they want to eventually do properly, instead of just releasing what works now and trying to jerry-rig new features into frameworks that weren't designed to handle them.

                                                                                                If that isn't development hell I don't know what qualifies.

                                                                                                Development hell is when something is not being developed, and nothing is being shown. Star citizen literally had a weekly show where they talk to one of the lead gameplay developers and he basically goes through an overview of a bug that was identified and how it was resolved. I don't understand how anyone can claim this is in dev hell or the devs are running away with the money while making shit like that. You really think they're just making up bugs to show on a weekly basis to keep up the illusion that they're working on it?

                                                                                                [–]omegashadow [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                I have played the core gameplay loop during the free flight and it is already fun, mostly because it is multiplayer. Even a very basic loop can be a blast when the framework feels good and you can play with friends or strangers.

                                                                                                [–]IlllIIIIIIlllll 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                I'll agree that their expectations on when to release are wildly optimistic. But in terms of the time frame from beginning development to release, it's so far well within the development as you'd expect from a game of this scale.

                                                                                                I also agree the core gameplay isn't very fun so far, that's hardly a criticism of development. What are they supposed to release?

                                                                                                They should have developed like Elite and focused on the core game play then expanded out

                                                                                                There's absolutely no reason why they should do that. What you give players with that is a shitty half finished game which puts them off from playing the game more and potentially lowers the sales that can be achieved. The only reason that you might do that is you don't have any more funds to really continue development.

                                                                                                instead what you have is 3 separate games

                                                                                                They're modules. Different parts of the same game. Eventually you combine all three, what it is right now is an alpha.

                                                                                                If that isn't development hell I don't know what qualifies.

                                                                                                Maybe where development has actually stagnated or similar eg Starforge? Your current definition seems to be "I don't like what they have put out" and "I disagree with their release model".

                                                                                                [–]InSOmnlaC 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                                They should have developed like Elite and focused on the core game play then expanded out

                                                                                                That's a terrible development model. By the time you get the game where you want it, no one cares any more. You only get one release.

                                                                                                [–]sp0ck06 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                But CiG has already said that's basically what SC is going to be like, they are going to release a "minimum viable product" at some point and keep adding features on afterwards...

                                                                                                [–]Effectx [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                CIG said back in 2012 that not every feature would available on release. But that's pertaining to things that simply are not necessary, like virtual cats and dogs.

                                                                                                Saying 'minimum viable product' doesn't tell us anything useful.

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                                                                                                    [–]Axyl [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                    In other, equally shocking and unforseen news..

                                                                                                    Water is wet. Snow still cold. Fire burns stuff.

                                                                                                    Now here's Kevin with the Weather..

                                                                                                    [–]sp0ck06 19ポイント20ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                                                    It was heavily teased and implied that some gameplay of SQ42 would be shown yesterday. Not a peep. Not even a teaser cutscene or super short scripted sequence. I find it hard to believe they have been working on this standalone single player component for years and are unable to show even a very brief glimpse of gameplay. I also think it is insulting to have a big ship sales trailer right before the event, and then completely fail to show anything besides the very cool planet tech. That was awesome, but its just tech. We know they have amazing tech. Where is the game?

                                                                                                    Where is Star Marine? Over a year ago Roberts said it would be out in "weeks," which was a straight up lie. We saw a decent looking demo of it at gamescom, it is supposed to be releasing in the 2.6 patch which is supposedly coming out very soon, and they have nothing they can show from the FPS module?

                                                                                                    This is supposed to be a transparent development? This is not looking good, either they are really keeping things totally under wrap until 100% polished and ready to go (which I doubt, considering how they've gladly showed rough footage in the past), or they are seriously behind in some areas. Squadron 42 Ep 1 is supposed to have 28 missions, which they claim are "greyboxed," yet they haven't shown a damn thing from any of them and up until yesterday were still saying it would be out in 2016?

                                                                                                    [–]InSOmnlaC 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                    Not a peep. Not even a teaser cutscene or super short scripted sequence.

                                                                                                    You didn't hear the part where he was talking about it and why he wasn't showing it? There was certainly a "peep".

                                                                                                    . I find it hard to believe they have been working on this standalone single player component for years and are unable to show even a very brief glimpse of gameplay.

                                                                                                    He said why they weren't showing it. He wants to show off a complete missions, beginning to end, in a completely polished and shippable state.

                                                                                                    it is supposed to be releasing in the 2.6 patch which is supposedly coming out very soon, and they have nothing they can show from the FPS module?

                                                                                                    Yeah, I would have liked to have seen some Star Marine stuff. 2.6 is being play tested as we speak though, and hopefully should be in our hands before the end of the month.

                                                                                                    This is not looking good, either they are really keeping things totally under wrap until 100% polished and ready to go (which I doubt, considering how they've gladly showed rough footage in the past

                                                                                                    CIG treats Star Citizen reveals and Squadron 42 reveals differently. SQ42 has been under wraps since the beginning, because Roberts doesn't want to spoil the story. 191 of the 363 employees they have are dedicated to Squadron 42 development, and we haven't really seen much of anything of it. So obviously there is a lot going on behind the scenes.

                                                                                                    Squadron 42 Ep 1 is supposed to have 28 missions,

                                                                                                    This is wrong. It has 28 chapters, not missions. There are 60+ missions.

                                                                                                    [–]TheGazelle 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                    It was heavily teased and implied that some gameplay of SQ42 would be shown yesterday. Not a peep. Not even a teaser cutscene or super short scripted sequence. I find it hard to believe they have been working on this standalone single player component for years and are unable to show even a very brief glimpse of gameplay.

                                                                                                    ... You mean besides explicitly telling everyone that they were working on the demo up to the last minute but it wasn't ready?

                                                                                                    You also don't seem to understand how they're developing this if you think they've been developing the single player for years. They've been developing the core framework for EVERYTHING for years. They haven't been 100% on sq42 the entire time. Some groups have been working mostly on sq42, some have been working on things that carry over between the two, some have worked on things that are exclusive to the multi-player.

                                                                                                    It's disingenuous to characterize SQ42 as a game that's been in development for 4 years. Even at that, 4 years is nothing in game dev. Games are often in development for as long, if not longer, when the devs on 100% on it and are already established when they start. Don't forget that they had to build their team out from nothing. The analogy of "building a plane while flying it" is very apt for describing the first couple years of development. It's really only been the last year or two that you could compare their output to a normal studio.

                                                                                                    I also think it is insulting to have a big ship sales trailer right before the event, and then completely fail to show anything besides the very cool planet tech. That was awesome, but its just tech. We know they have amazing tech. Where is the game?

                                                                                                    In development. That's what the tech is for. You don't just build a game out of nothing. The reason they're showing all this tech is because they're quite deliberately building out all the tech to support their entire ambitious vision now, so that when they get around to building the actual gameplay, all the tech to fully support it is there.

                                                                                                    Where is Star Marine? Over a year ago Roberts said it would be out in "weeks," which was a straight up lie. We saw a decent looking demo of it at gamescom, it is supposed to be releasing in the 2.6 patch which is supposedly coming out very soon, and they have nothing they can show from the FPS module?

                                                                                                    Was it a mistake last year? Yes. I wouldn't call it a lie. They had something they wanted to release within weeks last year. But as they got closer they ran into more and more problems, and ultimately scrapped that idea entirely in favour of taking the time to fix everything up before releasing it. That part I mentioned about building all the tech first? This is a perfect example.

                                                                                                    They had wanted to release a standalone first person shooter component. They could have done that. However if they did, they later would have had to retrofit the updated animations they were working on the time into it, then the 1st-3rd person unification stuff into it, then they would've had to retrofit the new netcode code, etc. Speaking as a developer, trying to retrofit new shit into something that wasn't designed with it in mind is a nightmare, and you often look at it and say "fuck I wish we had time to just redo the whole thing from scratch". In this case, CIG chose to have the time to do just that, which will result in an ultimately better release.

                                                                                                    I know it's hard for a lot of people to understand why they're developing things this way, when we've all gotten used to seeing full gameplay things and having games release on a set date, but from a dev standpoint, the way CIG is doing things is definitely the right way to handle this big of a project. They are taking no shortcuts, and that's good because shortcuts invariably cause headaches later on.

                                                                                                    This is supposed to be a transparent development? This is not looking good, either they are really keeping things totally under wrap until 100% polished and ready to go (which I doubt, considering how they've gladly showed rough footage in the past),

                                                                                                    This is exactly what they're doing. They did show rough stuff in the past. Then the wider gaming community would take that as a sign that what they're building is crap, or the the game is a buggy mess, and basically only portray it in a negative light, completely ignore the fact that it's an alpha (which in itself is another thing lots of gamers don't really get). That's exactly what happened to Arena Commander when it first released.

                                                                                                    As a result of all that shit early on, they now hold off on releasing things until they're farther along.

                                                                                                    or they are seriously behind in some areas. Squadron 42 Ep 1 is supposed to have 28 missions, which they claim are "greyboxed," yet they haven't shown a damn thing from any of them and up until yesterday were still saying it would be out in 2016?

                                                                                                    Up until yesterday they were still working on it having it ready to show. Shit happens, and they weren't able to show it. This doesn't mean it's "seriously behind", and if you ask anyone who actually follows the development, nobody expected a release in 2016. And all this talk of them saying it will be out in 2016, as far as I can tell, is literally just coming from the SQ42 page saying "2016, answer the call" at the bottom of the page. I don't see how this is any different than any other game saying something like "Q4 2016", then delaying a few months (which is likely what will happen). Nowhere have I actually seen Chris Roberts or anyone else come out and say it will definitely be out in 2016. That's their tentative release time.

                                                                                                    [–]sp0ck06 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                    You mean besides explicitly telling everyone that they were working on the demo up to the last minute but it wasn't ready?

                                                                                                    Yes, I heard that. I still think they could have shown something. A cinematic, some screen shots, pretty much anything besides more bullet points.

                                                                                                    They've been developing the core framework for EVERYTHING for years. They haven't been 100% on sq42 the entire time. Some groups have been working mostly on sq42, some have been working on things that carry over between the two, some have worked on things that are exclusive to the multi-player.

                                                                                                    Yes, I am aware of that. But AFAIK their entire UK studio is pretty much 100% on SQ42? And a lot of those systems that are holding up the PU shouldn't have much of an effect on SQ42, like the netcode. If they are so far behind on SQ42 that they cannot even get a working demo finished, wouldn't that indicate that they have known for a while there was no way it was coming in 2016? Personally I think people would rather know where things stand than be told its delayed last minute yet again.

                                                                                                    It's really only been the last year or two that you could compare their output to a normal studio.

                                                                                                    Then they shouldn't build up hype for things that are nowhere near complete. I don't care that they are taking forever, the game could come out in 2025 and if it was amazing I'd be fine with it. What bothers me is how they aren't living up to the transparency promise. That leads to speculation and worrying and the community getting defensive, its just not productive.

                                                                                                    The reason they're showing all this tech is because they're quite deliberately building out all the tech to support their entire ambitious vision now, so that when they get around to building the actual gameplay, all the tech to fully support it is there.

                                                                                                    People seem to think that once all the tech is in place its just a little matter of building the actual game mechanics and systems. I don't think that's realistic. A lot of the mechanics outlined in the design docs are insanely complex, more complex that anything any game has attempted. You don't just build that in a few months. Look at at a company like Blizzard. They have unlimited money, a massive team, barely any oversight.... they make very simple, addictive games focused on fun core gameplay loops, and it still takes them FOREVER to release shit.

                                                                                                    I look at the Star Citizen design docs and I'm like, this sounds incredible.... but how in the hell are they going to not only make it work, but make it fun to play?

                                                                                                    Believe me or not but I really want SC to succeed. Its the game I've always dreamed of. I have seen a lot of really, really impressive stuff CiG has put out. But as someone who is interested in the non combat aspects of the game, what I have yet to see is anything remotely resembling fun gameplay. I was super pumped for CitCon because I thought we'd finally see something besides powerpoint slides of real gameplay mechanics in action. But yet again, a very impressive tech demo and little else.

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                                                                                                      [–]Synchrotr0n [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      Haven't been following the news about Star Citizen lately, but isn't a 2016 release too soon even for multiplayer? Will the game release on early access?

                                                                                                      [–]Wreid23 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      after what I saw last night I dont even care EPIC EPIC EPIC.. and the no mans sky shots fired by sc devs left and right it was beautiful lol..

                                                                                                      [–]bigotmemer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      Is this supposed to be a surprise to anyone that actually follows the game?

                                                                                                      [–]BrutalSaint [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

                                                                                                      Why do so many redditors want this game to fail? What do y'all have to gain? It's like y'all are mad people are excited for a game and just cannot wait for a "I told you so" moment.

                                                                                                      [–]fullonrantmode [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                      It's not really that, more of a white blood cell, immune response to all the posts/comments about how awesome Star Citizen is gonna be.

                                                                                                      Remember when everyone was talking about how awesome No Man's Sky was gonna be?

                                                                                                      Yeah.

                                                                                                      [–]wingspantt [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

                                                                                                      They don't want it to fail, but they've seen COUNTLESS cycles of hype for pretty games that didn't live up to the insane expectations tied to them. And a lot of them are outer space themed, to make it worse.

                                                                                                      Spore. No Man's Sky. Star Wars Battlefront.

                                                                                                      [–]BrutalSaint [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                      I just grow tired of how people are demanding people not get excited. What's the point of having gaming as a hobby if you don't get excited about things?

                                                                                                      [–]Reckoner525 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                      Why do so many redditors want this game to fail? What do y'all have to gain?

                                                                                                      That sweet, sweet schadenfreude.

                                                                                                      It's also super-easy trolling. I mean if you've dropped 3-4 figures on this game you are going to defend it. You have to. Cognitive dissonance demands it. So any negative comment about the game leads to a general over-reaction.

                                                                                                      The truth is that they clearly have talent, staff, resources and at least some reasonable amount of finished content. What is scary is this game is breaking every rule about project management in the book, as it grows and grows and slips and slips.

                                                                                                      You may get one of the great video games of all time when Star Citizen releases. Or you may get Chris Roberts jackin' it in the street when nothing has shippd by 2021. Who can say?

                                                                                                      [–]hbarSquared [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      I don't think anyone wants it to fail. I for one really hope it succeeds. However, I can't understand the flip side - so many people are certain it will be a good game if/when it's finally released, when (from a neutral observer's point of view) there hasn't been a single shred of evidence that this is likely.

                                                                                                      Many, many promising games have died ignoble deaths because of scope creep and overspending. If these delays continue, eventually CIG's coffers will run dry and the fans won't stomach another round of funding, and at that point, Star Citizen will be finished.

                                                                                                      Maybe it gets released before then - I really hope it does, I'd love to play the finished product. But just having an industry veteran with big dreams and a pile of cash doesn't guarantee success.

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                                                                                                        [–]WhompWump [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                        Is anyone surprised by this? I expected the game to release when half-life 3 does.

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