(cache) Why President Trump wouldn't be the end of the world

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:03pm — gjohnsit

It's common in liberal circles these days to imagine the absolute worst possible outcome from Trump winning, and then assume that their nightmare is based on verifiable facts. When in fact it is based on conjecture, with a heavy dose of fear-based prejudice.
That's not to say Trump isn't an absolutely awful person, who would make possibly the worst president we've ever had, but that is only a educated guess.

I could be wrong. President Trump might just be a normal, bad president, like we've come to know.
I don't pretend to know the future, but it's now common for liberals to claim they do.
In fact, just doubting the validity of some liberal nightmare scenario on TOP will get you flamed. In much the same way that doubting the danger of Saddam in 2002 would incur accusations of treason in Republican circles. Hyperbolic doomsday predictions are now accepted as facts in the liberal echo chamber. The more hyperbolic the nightmare, the more credibility it is given.

Critical thinking is being trumped by fear.

It's now common to summon the specter of Hitler when talking about President Trump, when it fact Silvio Berlusconi is a better comparison.

His promises to sell off his personal assets to avoid conflicts of interest were never fulfilled, which sparked controversy throughout his terms in office. Berlusconi is a controversial figure in modern Italian politics: his tenure as Prime Minister was racked with scandalous sex affairs and poor judgement and decision-making.
According to journalists Marco Travaglio and Enzo Biagi, Berlusconi entered politics to save his companies from bankruptcy and himself from convictions

Doesn't that sound familiar? It does to me.
It's bad. It's embarrassing, but it's not scary.
Let's look at the other end of the spectrum. Why isn't Trump the new Hitler? For that, I refer to this article.

Gupta characterizes Trump’s campaign — correctly — as a “proto fascist” movement, meaning embryonic fascism, which may or may not develop into a fetus, let alone a baby. Proto-fascism has the DNA necessary to develop into a fully developed fascist movement, but without organizational sustenance and ideal conditions, the embryo withers.
While Gupta is right to warn of the threat, he overstates its imminence. A Trump presidency would feed the fascistic fetus in some ways while likely poisoning it in others.
A comparison of Trump’s campaign to the Nazi movement is helpful to illustrate. German fascism was a genuine, organized mass movement, with the Nazi party becoming the biggest political party in Germany. The party also had a massive paramilitary wing, the “Brownshirts,” which at its height had three million well-organized troops.
When Hitler came into state power, he brought with him his personal army, a massive political party with its own distinct, powerful ideology.
Trump doesn’t even have his own party, let alone a real movement (an electoral campaign is not a movement). His ideas are rudimentary and inconsistent. Because of him the Republicans are deeply split. Trump joined the Republicans out of weakness, not strength, and weakened the Republicans in the process.

Trump has no unified message or ideology. Ego has its place in fascism, but not without a framework around it.
The conditions also have no comparison.

The establishment, however, doesn’t arbitrarily dabble with fascism; they use it only when necessary, since engaging with fascism causes political and economic disruption, making profits less predictable.
Historically, a large section of the establishment opens its arms to real fascism when they literally fear for their life. Fascism is the “nuclear option” for capitalists, who use the far-right ideology to prevent the Left from taking power, so that capitalism can be preserved, and with it the large profits for the wealthy...
The German establishment needed Hitler to save capitalism, which was in imminent danger of being overthrown by the millions-strong and growing Socialist and Communist movements, led by mass organized parties.
The balance of power between the establishment and the working class was nearly even. Consequently, the establishment could not rule effectively. Protests were numerous, employers were under attack with strikes, and pro-capitalist reforms could not be implemented without risking insurrection.
Hitler and the German establishment were in total agreement that the Socialists, Communists and the trade union movement were too powerful, and had to be crushed. The first inhabitants of the concentration camps were leaders of the Left.
The situation in the U.S. is nowhere near 1930’s Germany. The U.S. establishment doesn’t yet need Brownshirts to save capitalism. Yes, widening inequality is an inherent and growing threat to U.S. capitalism, but a new Hitler isn’t yet required to smash the Left. This dynamic is ultimately what will prevent a President Trump from being too large a threat in the immediate future.

Since liberals have decided to ignore class, they've also forgotten that fear of communism was the primary and secondary reasons for the rise of fascism, not racism.
Deciding to ignore class is also the reason why liberals are clueless when it comes to understanding Trump's popularity.

On the other hand, there could be silver-lining from Trump winning.

If Trump becomes president, the various social movements — labor, peace, immigration, women, LGBT, Black Lives — will be given free reign to fight back by the Democrat-affiliated media and politicians, who will all discover the backbones they lost while Obama was in office. Good media examples are Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, who were brave pit bulls against Bush but toothless puppies under Obama.
In this sense, a Republican president can open space for the Left, even as they attempt to implement policies against it, while Democratic presidents shut off political space. Under Obama, protests were discouraged. Challenging politicians with bold demands was prohibited as the working class was told to defend Democrats from the right wing. Politics was stifled.

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Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:25pm — Shahryar

that must be some sort of Catch-22

In this sense, a Republican president can open space for the Left, even as they attempt to implement policies against it, while Democratic presidents shut off political space.

So we can never change anything for the better. The best we can hope for is uniting to fight against something.

If "we" win an election we're in for a bad time so we must lose.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:43pm — Bisbonian

Well, "we" don't "win" an election

when we elect another neo-liberal Democrat. If we actually Won an election, some good might come of it.

—

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” -John Quincy Adams

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:23pm — Alligator Ed

"Winning" this election really means preventing Medusa

from getting in the White House. She will connive with her supposed enemies, the Repugs, all the while selling off whatever legitimacy the Democrats may once have had to the highest bidders. Trump on the other hand will be a largely stifled president, because Democrats will instinctively rebel against his mandate (and he may indeed get a relative mandate, considering how few votes there will be in total). I don't force the election as providing a filibuster-proof majority for either party in either Chamber of Congress.

Trump will veto TPP.
He may lobby for tariffs
He won't start wars--and hopefully end the wars that our current war criminal president has been "ending" for the past 8 years.
He doesn't have as far as we know his own personal wet-work squad.

Trump's presidency won't be a boon to Progressives, except by weakening establishment Dems by illustrating serious intraparty rifts. This might provide a beneficial "power vacuum" which may allow a larger Progressive component to exist in the Donkey party.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:33pm — elenacarlena

Trump will end the wars? Not likely.

I don't believe his promises on the TPP or bringing back manufacturing either. Why would he? His own clothing line was made in China right up until Macy's stopped carrying it.

Trump has said, "We have to take out their families," referring to terrorists. He will widen the wars to the point of committing international war crimes. He'll set up his wet-work squad shortly.

Also, while he may be opposed by Dems, the Repugs will go along, especially if he turns more mainstream in order to gain all those lovely corporate donations for his reelection campaign.

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:40am — dkmich

I don't believe Trump anymore than I believe Hillary.

The victory is in the Democrat's neoliberal loss. How much it will cost remains to be seen, but we can pay now or pay later. I wish we had paid sooner when the cost was less, say Clinton or Obama's second terms.

IF third parties are as much of a wasted vote as the Democrats claim, then it is imperative their candidate lose. If they keep running neoliberal liars and crooks, we will never have a candidate to vote for and our votes will never count.

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:15am — Scheindog

"Trump has said, "We have to

"Trump has said, "We have to take out their families," referring to terrorists. He will widen the wars to the point of committing international war crimes. He'll set up his wet-work squad shortly"

So he won't have to look far for direction, and personnel. All he'll have to do is follow in his predecessors footsteps to have his choice of goons and weapons from Reagan on through the present. And, Hillary's fraudsters and goons will need work if she isn't elected. Heck!! we might even get to see, from our own living rooms, drones deliver new generation first strike nuclear bombs...won't that be sooo cooool!!

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:50am — Linda Wood

I cannot vote for Trump

under any circumstances, and the comment about having to take out terrorists' families is among the reasons he's clearly war criminal material. But aren't we already doing that? Aren't we now killing tens of thousands of innocent families in these wars?

I can't vote for Hillary Clinton first and foremost because she is a war criminal. She seems to have no interest in knowing what happens to the people of Libya or Syria when we blast away, or arm unnamed groups, or unleash a weapons glut that winds up fueling Al Qaeda and ISIS. It's all a joke to her. It's an abstraction.

As horrible as this is to say, when crackpot Republicans target families, at least they're aware that civilians are being killed. For the Democratic warmongers like Ash Carter, it's as if nothing like that is happening because they don't mention it, they don't acknowledge it, and therefore it's as if it isn't happening.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 11:40am — duckpin

Yes, I agree. It's as though Carter & Obama know those

who are murdered and disposessed and made homeless and stateless really are other than human and, in their neoliberal world, don't rise to the level of their having to take notice. It may or may not be happening but they don't deign to notice much less care.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:11pm — elenacarlena

Yes, but it's not intentional. Or so they claim.

I just don't see enough difference between the two of them to care which of the two wins. Thus I'm voting Jill Stein.

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:09pm — elenacarlena

There's only one candidate who wants to wage peace.

That's why I'm voting for Jill Stein.

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Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:27pm — Hawkfish

Thanks for this

I had been ruminating yesterday on how Trump's persona was nothing like Hitler's. Trump is just an old, spoiled, rich brat with a talent for what Scott Adams calls "persuasion". Hitler had that talent as well, but he was a much younger, deeply damaged, working class soldier who took Germany's defeat in WWI as personal threat to his masculinity. Most of the similarities are pretty superficial.

—

It's like two plus two equals fish! -- The Big Short

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:39pm — tapu dali

references please.

younger, deeply damaged, working class soldier who took Germany's defeat in WWI as personal threat to his masculinity.

Let's just say that armchair psychotherapy is not my bag.

I've about 15-20 books at home on the end of the Weimar Republic and the transition to the Third Reich. I assume you must as well, given your facile analysis. I invite you to back up your analysis with some scholarly work.

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 9:03pm — Hawkfish

It was rather over the top

I was still annoyed with Krugmans column this morning, and it sort of came out here.

As a domain expert, though, what do you think about the thesis that the two of them are very different people? Certainly they are different ages and have different backgrounds. Mein Kampf is dripping with rage, but I don't see that in Trump at all.

—

It's like two plus two equals fish! -- The Big Short

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:46pm — tapu dali

Very briefly, the similarities:

The country is in terrible shape
It's all because of "the other" (Jews/illegals)
Germany/USA can only be "great" again under "strong" leadership ...
... and eliminating (KZ, deportation) the "other"
Meanwhile eggs have to be broken to make the omelette (OK that was Lenin)
and promises are like piecrust (ditto)
The Volk have to be whipped up into a frenzy of anger
where the anger is delivered by the Leader
and whereby the Leader will be catapulted into absolute power
by the unanimous will of the People
where he can finally cleanse the Nation of the undesirables
and make it Great Again.

okay?

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:32pm — karl pearson

Trump supporter websites

If one visits Trump supporter websites and reads the comments, he/she will learn that his supporters are concerned about the economy. The posters frequently state that Trump is going to bring the jobs back to this country; Trump is going to fix the economy, etc. They also are attracted to Trump because they see him as an anti-establishment figure who will challenge Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. I also noticed Trump's supporters are really anti-main stream media. I am not saying that Trump will do any of these things, but that is the way some his supporters see him.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:43pm — duckpin

There is a class based wave of support for Trump. Even Ryan has

been forced to publicly oppose TPP.

In Ryan's district, Kenosha has seen 30% of manufacturing jobs erased; Racine has lost 33% of its manufacturing jobs; and Janesville has lost 54%. This has led to widespread despair as lives have been ruined because there's no hope of gaining similar employment to support a family

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:07pm — Nailbanger

He is a human Molotov Cocktail throw at the establishment

Michael Moore nails it, and this is why so many can overlook the flaws in Trump: He is not a positive change agent, he is a wrecking ball.
With the tsunami of bullshit coming from both the Democratic and Republican Establishment, there are tons of people just willing to throw a bomb. He doesn't pay taxes? Don't care. His foundation is a fraud? Really, this is what team Clinton is arguing? Carl Rove and his tricks are not operative this cycle. He could name radicals to the supreme court? You shoulda thought of that when you stuffed him and Shrillary down our throats. He is incompetent at governing? Who is ?!?

They will not bring him down with negatives, that is actually his selling point. The establishment hates him, and that is exactly why he is doing so well, and has a great chance of winning.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:15pm — MsGrin

It's a really perfect description

Someone posted it in another essay earlier. Moore hit the nail on the head.

I was listening to NPR go on about what New York is doing about the travesties at Trump Foundation - none of his voters give a flying damn about that.

—

Love trumps hate!
Bernie Sanders 2/27/16

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:23pm — Nailbanger

They are trying to innoculate the Clinton Foundation

with their hammering on his foundation. This is classic Rovian campaigning.
But we have all seen it before, it no longer holds its magic. And he will not be cowed on this in the debates, he will open up the whole donations form countries with business before the State Department scandal.
I really dont think they understand that the standard methods no longer work. His appeal is the hatred he engenders from the establishment. Everybody piling on Trump is reinforcing the idea that electing him will piss off TPTB, which is a YUGE positive.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:11pm — ovals49

Exactly. That vaccine no longer works.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:44pm — edg

Trump's foundation is a red herring.

The Clinton Foundation is nearly 1,000 times the size of Trump's foundation. Their attacks on his foundation is purely cover for the massive money-laundering and influence-peddling going on in theirs.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:13pm — lunachickie

Of course it is

I still think Trump is trying to throw the election--but it's instructive to see that his supporters don't give a damn about that Foundation business, because they already know about Clinton's! I kind of thought they might really nail him with that, but it doesn't seem to be making a dent....

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:47pm — tapu dali

Manchurian candidate.

D. Trump and W. Clinton are as close as thieves.

This 'election' has been rigged for Hillary since 2008, and all clear-thinking people know it.

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 8:16pm — tapu dali

Proof:

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:05pm — gustogirl

Is it backfiring?

While I'm inclined to agree that Trump is a ringer, it would seem even this Clintonian plan to put up a horrible opponent against Hillary is backfiring. Trump is far more popular than predicted because the Clinton camp is unaware of or insensitive to the angst of the citizenry. Even staunch liberals like myself feel preventing a Clinton win is the highest priority.

Trump's egotism is pretty obvious and it could be giving him ideas outside the original plan.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:12pm — Pluto's Republic

His supporters are anti-establishment

Just like the Bernie people.

I monitor a few of their websites. There's a Reddit place called "Ask a Trump Supporter."

It's about the economy from a middle class point of view. Trump attractive to people who lost their jobs through "surrender globalism," better known as Neoliberalism. But Anti-establishment is their big thing. None would ever vote for a career politician, again. They support Outsiders only.

—

__________________________
The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:52pm — Nailbanger

And having everyone from Bush Sr. to the NY AG

attack Trump, they are actually feeding his narrative: They hate me just like they hate you. Hillary's "deplorables" was confirmation, not revelation, of a system at war with working people.
How a NY frat boy billionaire can connect with the middle class so well is beyond my comprehension.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 8:47pm — tapu dali

Perhaps because "frat boy"

resonates more with them than "billionaire"?

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:38pm — duckpin

One can look to Trump's Republican enemies, or if not

enemies, non supporters. Trump is not getting the Republican donor class to contribute to his campaign. House Speaker Ryan spoke to a group of 400 over-rich Repub donors and conceded that Trump did not hold standard beggar-the-poor views. Ryan said, "We have a different kind of nominee now" which "sparked laughter in the room" according to the Washington Post.

If we don't believe Trump, and there's no reason to, we have to account for the fact the money tap is off for him: Rich Republicans believe him.

We have, as leading candidates, two of the worst nominees in history.

As for defending Democrats from the right wing, Obama and Clinton are right wing.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:54pm — Hillbilly Dem

Amen. And while we're loking at Trump's enemies,

let's have a look at Hillary's latest BFF. She was endorsed today by Michael Fucking Chertoff. Skelator himself. The guy who was excoriated over at ToP in the early 2000's when he was Bush's toady. I won't go to the ToP, but I'll bet that all is forgiven over there if he's backing Hillary. As if Henry Fucking Kissinger wasn't enough.

Now, the former lead counsel for the Rethugs' Senate Whitewater Investigation is endorsing her and she (apparently) has done nothing to dissuade him or reject his endorsement. If someone had tried to ruin/jail my spouse, even 20 long years ago, my response to their endorsement of my candidacy would be quite different. I'd have said to him "Mr. Homeland Security you smeared my spouse and tried to humiliate me too. Take your endorsement and cram it up your ass."

But apparently, being POTUS is more important to her than anything else on this mortal coil. How I have grown to loathe that woman.

—

"There's been a lot of progress in this country over the last 75 years. And the Republicans have been against all of it." -my departed father, of blessed memory

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:00pm — duckpin

Friends of Hillary belong at Madame Tussaud's wax

works Hall of Horrors. How could she attract such a disreputable crew? Oh wait, I remember.

Hillary is the shark and the remoras are attaching for free eats and proximity to power. The Foreign Affairs Council(something like that) is the where the neolib/neocon nexus is and their directors are well represented as Official Friends.

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"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:07am — lotlizard

Are you thinking of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)?

They publish the quarterly Foreign Affairs magazine.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:19am — duckpin

Yes. My recall was not what I could have wished for. Thanks.

I recently saw a list of the Board of Directors of this most establishment of organizations and many are the same ones who urged the disaster-war in Iraq. Being wrong most of the time, even when millions die and trillions of $$$ wasted, does not disqualify them from the CFR. Many friends of Clintons are there.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:53pm — ggersh

Not a surprise but here is

Dubyas daughter doing the hillbot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3817829/Another-Bush-Hillary-Bar...

It's all one big party and we ain't anywhere near being included, it's deplorable. -s-

—

"If their is money to be made capital will buy enough government and
reform becomes impossible" David Simon

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:20am — Raggedy Ann

It's an exclusive club

of which we are not a part and don't even get to glance an an invitation.

—

If you acknowledge it, you can change it.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:32pm — ggersh

I'm sure we wouldn't want that invitation

sorry for assuming(but I think I got that right)

but to be a fly on the wall at certain times would have to be priceless.

—

"If their is money to be made capital will buy enough government and
reform becomes impossible" David Simon

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 10:51pm — FuturePassed

Chertoff

Once you swallow David Brock the rest go down easy.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:29am — Amanda Matthews

Hillary, her supporters, and water have one thing in common

They BOTH sink to their own level. And that's lower than the Challenger Deep at the bottom of the Marianna Trench

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:54pm — elenacarlena

I went there so you didn't have to!

Not going to visit every mention on the site, but the last few comments mention Chertoff's dissing of Trump with some amazement. No forgiveness for his or W's former loathsomeness, but happy that he has seen the light, if only to the limited extent of disliking Trump.

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:31am — Amanda Matthews

Well if they've learned to love Chimpy than Chertoff isn't much

of a surprise. I'm waiting for cheney to endorse her.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:11am — elenacarlena

If Cheney endorses her, then I will actively work against her.

I know she's a warmonger. That would be the last straw. It would make it plain that she's not just talking tough because a woman has to, to be elected, but she means it.

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:12am — gulfgal98

^^^This^^^

I thought I disliked her before, but now the intensity has grown and continues to grow. I find nothing redeeming about her or her policies or her crooked foundation.

But apparently, being POTUS is more important to her than anything else on this mortal coil. How I have grown to loathe that woman.

—

"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~Dr. Cornel West "...isn't the problem here that the government takes on, arbitrarily and without justification, an adversarial attitude towards its citizenry?" ~CantStopthe Signal

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:53pm — Shockwave

Strongly disagree on so many levels

And none other than Jennifer Lawrence agrees with me;

Jennifer Lawrence Predicts ‘End of the World’ If Donald Trump Becomes President

There are many issues with the way things are going but putting Trump at the helm guarantees we'll hit an iceberg or the ship will catch fire and sink.

—

The political revolution continues

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 5:57pm — gjohnsit

There's a difference between guarantee

and "I believe".

I believe that you believe.
But if you can guarantee the future, then I need help with some lotto numbers.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:20pm — Shockwave

I buy a lottery number once a year to give G.d a chance...

...if he exists but I guarantee that Trump is the end of the world. Just look at his entourage let alone his character and temperament and his business practices and etc.

—

The political revolution continues

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 8:58pm — tapu dali

Exactly so.

Pick as many as you wish from the following:
1, 3, 7, 17, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 47, 53, 57, 63, 67.

I'm happy to accept 4.5% of your winnings as commission.

TYVM

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 9:18pm — Hawkfish

Ok, I give up

They are not primes and they are not the least popular lottery numbers (to maximize payout).

—

It's like two plus two equals fish! -- The Big Short

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 10:09pm — tapu dali

Thanks. Good paper.

Since all numbers are equally likely (it is after all a random draw), I just pulled these numbers out of my a$$.

Then of course there are condundrums like this ...

Smile

—

"there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:27am — CantStoptheSignal

Funny. That's how Hillary looks to me.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:13pm — Cassiodorus

Omigod Jennifer Lawrence!

Hopefully she will protest Trump's election by refusing to dress fashionably at the next awards show or something.

—

"Throw out the elephant, throw out the ass. Build a party of the working class." -- Jodi Dean

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:14am — Writerinres

She will stop tripping en route to

receiving an award in her adorbish way.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:25pm — Bollox Ref

I'm not sure I would treat Lawrence as some political savant.

Not that Trump is a nice chap.

End of the world is a trifle hyperbolic.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:59pm — Nailbanger

Trump will be a disaster

Clinton will be a disaster.
Trump will be limited by literally having no friends in Congress, and having a billionaires hurt ego.
Clinton will have no such limits. She has ready acceptance in the her own party for nearly anything she does already, no matter how much they opposed it yesterday. And Republicans are already salivating over having her as president, just look at how many endorsements she gets from them.
They can run the kabuki show of pretending to investigate her while "strengthening" Social Security, cutting taxes, bombing brown people everywhere, and deregulating everything. Liberals will fall over themselves justifying every bit of it.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:15pm — Linda Wood

... plus nukes

re-designed for first use, dial-a-yield, to make them more useable.

If George W. Bush threatened such a crackpot idea, he'd be called a lunatic. If Trump threatened first use, reduced yield nuclear weapons, at a cost of a trillion bucks in design and retrofitting, he'd be called a madman. But this is what our Democratic administration is talking about.

I fear the Democratic Congress will not only fall on the floor and obey her but also that they'll be afraid to oppose her war-making powers because they'd be accused of a double standard, of obstructing her right prove she's as strong as a man.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 5:22am — Creosote.

No wonder W said he might turn

out not to be the worst president in history.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:01am — elenacarlena

I predict that Trump will sell out. He said after the primary

that he is not financing his GE run. He will end up obeying his corporate masters. And then he will have plenty of Repug friends and maybe some Dems too.

I think you will find a limited Trump to be a forlorn hope, no more true than Hillary doing things for working class women and children.

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Mon, 10/03/2016 - 10:54pm — FuturePassed

Please explain.

Can you explain why the fact that Jennifer Lawrence agrees with you should help you persuade anyone else?

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:02am — elenacarlena

People from Kentucky are unusually intelligent and perceptive

(written from Kentucky)

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Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:41am — Shockwave

Actors have a different perspective

On top of that she has an unusual personal perspective;

In a 2015 interview with Vogue, Lawrence criticized Kim Davis for her opposition to same-sex marriage.[79] Though Lawrence was "raised a Republican," she has said, "I just can't imagine supporting a party that doesn't support women's basic rights."

—

The political revolution continues

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:16am — lotlizard

Hillary is ruthless enough to be a President Alma Coin . . . n/t

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:00pm — Big Al

Maybe not the end of the world but it would be the end

of all pretenses that this country has jumped the shark. It's not going to happen anyway, Clinton will be the president unless she fucking dies in the next month. But if it were Trump, the show would go on, everybody should know that. We just get to watch and bitch about it.

Relative to the hope that with a republican president the so called left would come alive and suddenly protest shit they won't under a Democratic president, I think that misses what really happens. The Democratic party and affiliated institutions coopt the "movements" or protests using the anger against the Republicans, the same old shit. It happened recently with Bernie and his fake revolution and the offshoots, where are they now. Those that fall back to supporting the Dem party, like at that "liberal" website Daily Kos, have proven they were fake, that it was all about the tribal political party bullshit. So they and their fake movements turn out even more harmful to the formation of real effective movements than would happen under a Dem president. Bring Clinton on and protest the hell out of her and this government.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:06pm — duckpin

It's easy to be against something when you know your views

will not be adopted but it plays well with your voters. Your only problem is if you - the politician - wind up with actual power. Then you have to get an Obomectomy.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:25am — CantStoptheSignal

It's very hard to keep any movement

from being co-opted or sabotaged these days.

That's something we should really talk about.

Fuck the Clinton/Trump/Bush cabal. Multimillionaire/billionaire bastards.

I'm a pro wrestling fan, they can't fucking fool me.

(trigger warning for those triggered by 9/11 images)

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:05pm — Pluto's Republic

Nicely done.

Finally an intellectually honest piece on Our Boogyman. Thanks, gjohnsit.

I just wrote a piece on fascism, which I had to research because I knew little about it.

This was certainly a universal truth:

Since liberals have decided to ignore class, they've also forgotten that fear of communism was the primary and secondary reasons for the rise of fascism, not racism.

I also learned that almost every country in the world had a Nazi Party in the 20th century. Certain economic conditions inspired the global trend. That means every race had fascism on its mind.

There's a strong connection between predatory free markets and the rise of Fascism, as well.

—

__________________________
The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:17pm — ggersh

The UK and US

had plenty of Nazi sympathizers, many that were pretty high up in the tower of government.

Many of those Nazi party members were brought to the US after the second world war.

—

"If their is money to be made capital will buy enough government and
reform becomes impossible" David Simon

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:19pm — Pluto's Republic

If it weren't for Nazi imports the US would have failed WWII

—

__________________________
The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:55pm — ggersh

Didn't those imports come after WWII?

—

"If their is money to be made capital will buy enough government and
reform becomes impossible" David Simon

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:57am — Amanda Matthews

Operation Paperclip

Operation Paperclip was the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which more than 1,500 Germans,[1] primarily scientists but also engineers and technicians, were brought to the United States from Nazi Germany for government employment starting in 1945 and increasing in the aftermath of World War II.[2] It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) and in the context of the burgeoning Cold War. One purpose of Operation Paperclip was to deny German scientific expertise and knowledge to the Soviet Union[2] and the United Kingdom,[3] as well as to inhibit post-war Germany from redeveloping its military research capabilities. A related course of action was taken by the US with regard to Japanese human experimenters employed from Unit 731. The Soviet Union had the somewhat similar yet much more limited Operation Osoaviakhim.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:21am — CantStoptheSignal

That was after.

It's not unlike the story of Sauron causing the destruction of Numenor.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:21am — CantStoptheSignal

That was after.

It's not unlike the story of Sauron causing the destruction of Numenor.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:24pm — Azazello

Good piece at The Nation.

Naomi Klein talks about Pinochet, Uncle Miltie and Orlando Letelier.

Letelier set out to explode this comfortable elite consensus with a litany of factual evidence and persuasive rhetoric. He argued that the junta wasn’t pursuing two separate, easily compartmentalized projects—one a visionary experiment in economic transformation, the other a grisly system of torture and terror. There was, in fact, only one project, in which terror was the central tool of the free-market transformation. “Repression for the majorities and ‘economic freedom’ for small privileged groups are in Chile two sides of the same coin,” Letelier wrote.
The Nation, 10-10-16

You really can't separate social policy from economics. If Sanders were the Democratic candidate maybe the 1% would find themselves a real fascist, and not a clown like Trump. They're not backing him because they don't need a Pinochet yet, they're perfectly comfortable with Hillary.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:53pm — Bisbonian

I see a good bumper sticker

in that line.

—

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” -John Quincy Adams

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:53pm — Bollox Ref

Good old neutral Sweden

Had a strong Nazi-sympathizing Party in the '30's. King Gustav V and and his grandson Gustav Adolf (the present king's father) travelled to Berlin in 1939.

Goering is at the centre.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:03pm — WaveyDavey

When someone says...

—

Q: How would you sleep at night if your vote for Jill Stein allowed Donald Trump the Presidency.
A: Probably the same as I would if Hillary Clinton "won" the Presidency...with one eye open.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:54pm — Bisbonian

Yup.

—

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” -John Quincy Adams

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:07am — elenacarlena

As I mentioned in another thread tonight, Jill Stein should be

our President. She is head and shoulders above all competitors, and if people voted their hopes rather than their fears, they would vote for her. Therefore all votes are rightfully hers.

Thus your vote for Trump (rather than Jill) is a vote for Clinton.
Thus your vote for Clinton (rather than Jill) is a vote for Trump.

Because in either case you're taking votes away that rightfully should go to Jill, making it more likely that one of the disgusting duo will be elected.

It's my new meme.

—

Please check out Pet Vet Help, and consider joining us to help pets! Thank you.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:44pm — Timmethy2.0

I think Jill would be the front runner right now

If Bernie had never entered the race. All those $27 donations would have gone to her after Hillary's quick win over Martin O'Mlley in the Demonratic primaries. Jill, right now, would be having enormous rallies and she would be decimating Hillary and Trump in the debates in which she would have to be included. She would definitely be on the ballot in all 50 states and the Green Party would be THE party to be reckoned with. The DNC should be grateful to Bernie.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:23pm — hecate

then again, it could be argued

that the true Mr. Magoos without clues, are those who blindly cling to an old and moldering 19th Century analysis, who do not and will not see that the last throes of the white people, worldwide, are rooted in Fear and Hate of the brown people, which is currently manifesting in the US as embrace of The Hairball.

This research finds that, contrary to what you'd expect, the "losers of globalization" aren't the ones voting for these parties. What unites far-right politicians and their supporters, on both sides of the Atlantic, is a set of regressive attitudes toward difference. Racism, Islamophobia, and xenophobia—and not economic anxiety—are their calling cards.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:34pm — gjohnsit

If you decide

to completely ignore what a majority of the supporters as saying, and even ignore a majority of what Trump talks about (hint: he talks mostly about jobs and trade), if you also ignore stuff that can't be faked (or even spun) like mortality rates and median wages, then you are free to believe absolutely anything you'd like to believe.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 6:44pm — duckpin

Mortality rates of males 45 to 54 has shown an unexpected jump

and the causes - suicide, alcoholism, substance abuse - are markers for misery, as in falling into poverty when you were expecting leaving an unexciting job at retirement and being able to live on that and SS.

Saltillo, Mexico and other Mexican towns are where Speaker Ryan's jobs have ended up.

Depression is both an economic state, national or localized, and a personal state. The suffering is real. Real like the 150,000 Indian farmers who have committed suicide when international capital decided the traditional methods of farming there clashed with a profit opportunity. Or like in southern Mexico when American corn was dumped there driving farmers to ruin.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:15am — CantStoptheSignal

My generation is the one that actually got punched in the gut

harder than any others. Many of us are at the age where you're caring for both children and parents, trying to pay off your mortgage if you're lucky enough to "own" a home, etc.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:22am — duckpin

People in their most productive years are the ones hurt

most by the USA losing its manufacturing base. People in this age group find it harder to find a job because of age discrimination and if you're unemployed for 6 months or more, it's said to kill your chances of ever finding suitable work.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:25am — CantStoptheSignal

It does.

For my boyfriend, it basically has. His only chance is finding a situation where he can sit face-to-face with a person with power to hire who is willing to look away from the employment gap long enough to assess him as an individual.

He graduated from college in August 2008. In Sept 2008, the world fell apart. There were no jobs for a year or more. By which time he was already "long-term unemployed."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:32am — duckpin

Effing horrible. I wish him, and you, all the best. What sort

of political/economic system intentionally fails to employ well qualified and steady workers? It's an individual tragedy and a societal waste.
(57,000 factories shuttered here and the jobs moved elsewhere.)

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:46am — CantStoptheSignal

A murderous one.

Or, alternately, a suicidal one, if the environmental side of things is any indication.

Thank you for your well-wishes and sympathy--it's been so long since we've gotten a response of that kind.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:41am — duckpin

It's a society, in my view, that if you're useful to Big Capital

you can have a job at management's forebearance and tolerance. The minute you are in the way of an extra bit of profit, you're gone.

With a strong union, and my family consisted of Longshoremen, electrical workers, Maritime union, steamfitters, management could not arbitrarily fire you. You worked under a contract and you had rights. Capitalism considers this interference with managements' prerogatives and has been successful in limiting, and often ending, workplace democracy. I think it's that simple: Anything, or anyone, in the way of profit is to be kicked down and kept out of the system.

You're welcome about the comments. I believe in the common good and solidarity and people helping people.

—

"Sometimes I feel like Fletcher Christian..."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:16am — CantStoptheSignal

double post

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:15pm — hecate

i listen

very carefully to what he says, and what his supporters say.

He is a loser, and a hater, a racist, and a xenophobe, living in fear of the world as it is, and as it is becoming. Same is true of his supporters. He, and they, are the last throes of the white people. The white people, they are over. And they know it. It makes them Scared. It shouldn't. But it does.

You didn't have the time, to read the link, before you responded. So I'd submit that it is you, who are about just believing, what it is you want to believe. ; )

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:05pm — FuturePassed

White people are over.

Could you suggest a convenient spot where I can slash my throat? Would you like a video?

Your over generalizations about white people are as troubling as the generalizations some Trump supporters make about "Black" people and Mexican people and followers of Islam.

Are the white people supporting Hillary "over"?

I think your style of identity politics would receive a better welcome at TOP.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:09pm — FuturePassed

Snark

If your comments are snark I apologize.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:22pm — hecate

i think

white identity politics are stupid and boring. As is your comparison of my observations to the droolings of the people of The Hairball. As is your suggestion I skedaddle off to Daily Kos.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:03am — FuturePassed

Identity politics

I think all identity politics is stupid and boring, or would be if it wasn't used as a tool by both conservatives and neoliberals to drive a wedge between people who have important interests, such as food, shelter, and medical care in common.

People are complicated. They don't fit well into the stereotypes you construct.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:11am — hecate

i don't

construct stereotypes. I know that white people, they pillaged the entire planet, and for 500 years. They upended, everything. And now they weep and cry and drool and sob. Sucking, as an example, here, currently, in the US, their microknob, of a Hairball. Behind their white identity poiltics. But I know, that they will be cured. When, they become, brown.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:54am — HenryWallace

Hillary ran for President twice and ran a racist campaign twice.

The first time she pandered to white people and her campaign dog whistled Obama for months before she finally did it herself. The second time, she pandered to African Americans and dog whistled about Jews and atheism. That she controls her mouth (somewhat) better than Donald, after being in politics since age 13 (according to her), makes her no less bigoted than he is. And you don't fight bigotry by voting for the lesser bigot.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:16pm — The Voice In th...

Last time I looked Hillary was white.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:26pm — hecate

last time i looked,

the piece to which I linked renders that comment irrelevant.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:05am — crbngville

Vox, really?

Seems like Vox has been in the $hillary bag for a long time.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:09am — CantStoptheSignal

Well, look whose company it was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Media

and who funds it. Knowing those things, Vox has a tendency to sound to me basically like Bernie does these days:

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:28am — hecate

that's right—

I forgot.

This is the site where, currently, the top-voted site story, is one that approvingly cites to projectile-vomit streaming from the mouths of the corrupt criminal racist crackpot fabricators Jerome Corsi and Joseph diGenova.

And then wants to claim. Vox. Is "untrustworthy."

You people. Really. Are. Sad. ; )

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:22am — CantStoptheSignal

It's all the same thing--

no new tale to tell.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:36am — hecate

not a new tale

but a true tale.

People here. As many rocks in their heads. As in the heads. Of the people. On Daily Kos.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:29am — lotlizard

Good catch. n/t

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:20pm — BoberFett

Wow

Take a hike, racist.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:38am — hecate

having a good time, here, laughing,

waiting for JtC, to fairly apply, his alleged proscription, against site members, calling other site members, racists.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:44am — CantStoptheSignal

Let's see. I'm in Eastern Time, and it's 7:37 in the morning.

on the West Coast, it's 4:37.

I don't know where JtC lives, but I think maybe he can have a cup of coffee before he deals with this, however he intends to deal with it.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:13am — hecate

the fuck

called me a racist at 6:20 p.m. Eastern time. I don't think JtC was then asleep. I for sure know joe wasn't. Since he was posting at 10:08 p.m. Eastern.

& I always, and for sure, know, that when I stray out of line, I hear about it, and real damn quick. ; )

But, you know, I don't really care. It's just more of the same. Here. So. Wearying.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:19am — CantStoptheSignal

It says 12:20 a.m. on my screen.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:55am — hecate

still laughing and laughing,

at 10:50 a.m. EST, the morning after, waiting for JtC, or joe, to come in, with suitably furrowed brow, to at least tut-tut, the dimwit dimbulb fuck, calling me a racist.

I give them till noon. Their sleepy time. Then I figure it's open season. For me. To call anybody I damn well please, here. With, or without, reason. A racist.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:19am — JtC

Hecate...

what the fuck is with you, you think I find that funny? Check yourself Bub.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:05pm — TheOtherMaven

I think Hecate jumped the shark a while back

Hec's posts used to be bizarre but funny - now they're bizarre, mean-spirited, and not funny at all.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:25am — gulfgal98

Puts on moderator hat

We have one rule here and that is do not be an ass which means we do not want our members to engage in personal insults. It is far better to make your arguments without name calling. Thanks.

—

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:50am — BoberFett

OK?

And are there rules against blatant bigotry? Would stating the "black people are over" and "black people ruined the world" be welcome on this site? If not, then maybe I'm not the problem here.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:59am — gulfgal98

calm down

I was simply reminding you refrain from name calling of another member. You are welcome to argue your points on the issues. We try to be as open as possible on the issues. If you are having a problem with content, feel free to contact us via the Contact us button or via pm. Okay? Smile

—

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:00am — JtC

Hey Boberfett..

cut the personal attacks or you'll take a hike.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:12am — CantStoptheSignal

We are all over.

And I'm too busy being scared of global ecological collapse and the potential for a hot war between superpowers to have time to be afraid of much else.

Some people want to occupy the time remaining by attacking each other for the color of their skin, or what language they speak, or what God they worship.

That's not my response to being put under a global death sentence--I can think of about 1000 things that I'd rather do. And anyway, I'm too proud to vent my hatred on anyone except those most responsible for this farcical murder show.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:50am — hecate

i'm sorry

you're scared.

So sad.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:15pm — Cachola

Jeez Louise

—

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:19pm — BoberFett

Seriously?

The last throes of the white people? Could you be more racist?

Any time you make a comment regarding race, replace the races with a different one and then think again about whether you should say it out loud, or if you're better off keeping your opinion to yourself.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:24pm — hecate

anyone

who thinks "any time you make a comment regarding race, [you can] replace the races [sic] with a different one," is utterly without clue, regarding race and racism.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:48pm — BoberFett

Redefining words

Are you one of these people redefining terms such as "racism" to ensure that only white people can be racist?

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 11:38pm — travelerxxx

Good Vox article

Thanks for the link, hecate. It's pretty hard to refute the findings in that article. For all the Trump supporter's economic talk, you start to wonder whether it's just whitewash -- and whether a small amount of solvent thrown on it would reveal the true colors.

With the most rabid Trumpites, I often sniff the odor of racism. I'm around some Trump supporters; they know I detest Hillary Clinton. Recently, I've noticed them letting their guard down a mite with me. The backstage racism is there in spades.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:12am — elenacarlena

On the contrary, I think the core is economic anxiety; and the

corporate-owned media have succeeded in turning that anxiety away from its true source - the wealthy 1% - and stoking racism in place of class warfare, blaming immigrants for "taking our jobs," ignoring the fact that they couldn't take the jobs if they weren't getting paid sub-minimum wages by employers so greedy that breaking the law to exploit the disenfranchised is their go-to strategy.

—

Please check out Pet Vet Help, and consider joining us to help pets! Thank you.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:23am — hecate

you can

think what you want. However, as that piece indicates, the evidence is otherwise, and all over the white-people world.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:42am — CantStoptheSignal

The correlation between economic anxiety and the activation

of white racism is pretty well-established, so this seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:47am — hecate

it doesn't matter

what it seems like to you. You are not in Reality. Go read the piece. It doesn't establish what you want it to. But that's just too bad.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:25am — k9disc

Interesting Graph. But No Correlation?

Looks to me like correlation to deprivation. As you go up the deprivation chart, you have higher number of dots. Here it is with a line added to demonstrate:

That looks like correlation to me.

—

“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:59am — hecate

looks to me

like you haven't read the piece; that the supreme correlation, is the bedwetting white people, pissing their pants, about brown people.

Brexit voters were old pants-wetting stumblebum stupid-as-shit dumb-fuck in-the-way white retrovert racist fucks.

And, such people, they are over.

And, no one on the continent, cares about England. Which has always thought itself better than, superior to, the continent.

For centuries, England's attitude towards the continent, was, let's you and you fight.

But the continent, it is wise to that, now.

Scotland will break off from England, now, and so will the six northern counties of Ireland. Both having voted huge, to remain. Because, for one, they received human-rights protections, under the EU, far more, than they ever received from England.

England, now, can wank itself off, in its pants. Which is, always, what it has been, best, at.

While the world, now, at long last, it is moving on.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:27am — k9disc

This Is a Pleasant Tone. I'm So Glad I Responded. nt

—

“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:06am — JtC

Hecate...

you know better than this:

You are not in Reality.

That's crossing the line of the general into the personal. Cut the personal out.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:23am — hecate

no it isn't

People are spewing all over this subthread without ever having read the linked piece. They, are, therefore, not in the Real. Not that they should have had to read that piece, to become Real. But I know there are basically no brown people on this site, and so, it is very hard, for the white people here, some of them, to understand, apprehend, what life is really like, outside, their little, white, safe, cocooon.

And as for that knuckledragging no-brain, who twice called me a racist, that's just "a personal attack"?

Weak.

You considered it something quite a bit stronger than that. Back in the day. When it was I, who was wielding, the R word. And never, did I wield it, so directly.

Oh well. Same. As it ever was. Some animals. Are more equal. Than others.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:39am — JtC

I see a lot of spewing...

across this thread, including your own, of course you don't view it as spew yourself, do you?

You're pushing it, dude.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 9:41am — lunachickie

Of course it is

Some people just don't want you to see it that way, though. Too bad for them...

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:03am — CantStoptheSignal

Perhaps I should have emphasized that I meant

across history.

Basically, if you want to rev up the most hateful racism against people of color, drive white people further into poverty and then tell them, over and over, that Black people are to blame. Or Brown people of any ethnicity.

That's been a primary talking point of the Trump campaign, it's been used over and over again since the 80s counter-revolution, and it was very popular in Hitler's Germany.

This does not imply "Poor white people, they're really the victims here." It means "People are fucking stupid and go along with the man when he offers them a convenient scapegoat. And sometimes the Man increases the pain on purpose so he can put the scapegoating into high gear."

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 7:53am — k9disc

That Piece Does Not Explain the Recent Authoritarian Bent

of the Center Left.

Does it?

Seems to me that Democrats, as illustrated by dKos' transition to Little Orange footballs, are hopping on the same authoritarian bandwagon.

And there was a similar rightward lurch across Europe in the mid-00s.

I'm not sure it's all racism and white fragility.

—

“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 8:46am — k9disc

OK. Read It. Compelling Stuff.

I see a major problem with the base premise though.

It examines economics vs race but leaves the powder keg of foreign relations and existential threat completely out of the picture.

I don't know how you could look at Eastern Europe in the 40s without the existential threat of WWII.

I don't know how you can look at the early/mid 00s without the existential threat of "American Peace" foreign policy and terrorism.

I don't know how you can look at the present without Global Warming, Russia/American relations, and perpetual war.

From the mid 00s until about 2014, you had a Nobel Peace Prize winning President drawing down American intervention and American belligerent foreign policy and psyops. You had a bit of a lull in Global Warming alarmism.

Those things popped back up, not too long ago, 2013-2014? Now we've got America in Ukraine, developing usable nukes, and ridiculous GW data and palpable experiences.

This piece, repeatedly, neglects or glosses over the classical condition of an existential threat. It's like there are no global issues but money and race.

That is clearly not the case in the 40s, the 60s, the early-mid 00s, and the the last few years.

I do think that it makes a compelling case that reduced power of the dominant demographic is in play, but it completely ignores the classical condition of existential threats experienced by masses of people.

This classical condition of existential threat is a major player in group dynamics. It limits and reduces the potential of a rational response. Add to this classically conditioned state a real or perceived non-response, or business as usual, by government, you are going to get an irrational, fight or flight, responses.

If there were a real global push to combat AGW, I think we might have a different situation.

And, one quote jumped out at me:

No one has a good solution for the refugee crisis or for Islamist terrorism.

Says who?

How about not bombing people in the ME? A removal of forward deployed Western troops and a Marshall Plan for the ME would be a good start, wouldn't it?

I think what the author means is that Big Corporate & the Oligarchs won't allow such a plan, same as with Cheap Labor trade deals, and AGW.

Great article, and certainly food for thought, but I don't find it to be as holistic or as sound as you think it is, hecate.

Peace~

—

“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 2:11am — janis b

This article, you link to,

should be required reading for anyone wanting to reply to your comment or this essay; and I haven't even finished reading it yet.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 3:38am — ThoughtfulVoter

This could be a stand alone essay!

Hecate, that article you shared was incredible and makes me feel like I have a lot to learn. Would you consider a whole essay on this? Because as the article says, Trumpism is bigger than Trump. The media has trivialized Donald Trump, and focused on such superficial stuff about him/his campaign/his family when there is much deeper cultural change underfoot...a much bigger global backlash against change and sharing power with non white groups that nobody wants to talk about other than the social scientists.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:32am — hecate

on the eve

of The Hairball's electoral destruction, I will write it.

And it will be called:

We Will Give Him A Family, And He Will Be Our Brother

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 10:11am — Azazello

The Jewish people in Lithuania,

they were not brown. Ukrainians hate Russians. Russians hate Poles. Which are brown ? How to explain Rwanda or Shia/Sunni resentment? Identity Politics is easy but not always reliable. I think privilege and resentment are better understood as economic phenomena. I know, that's "reductionism" but I still think it's more reliable.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:26pm — TheOtherMaven

Kingston Trio, "The Merry Minuet", 1959

Or, The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same.

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much!!

But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away!!

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man....

Songwriter
SHELDON HARNICK

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:17pm — shaharazade

Like this essay a lot.

Jeeze the pumped up fear of fascism is insane. I agree gjohnsit and I find the Clintonian 'New Democrat's' way more fascistic then Trump. Trump may have rag tag gun toting tea bagger types as followers but he does not have the current officail USA version of Brownshirt's, der homeland security, the armed enforcers we call police armed by the state killing and incarcerating indefinitely black people, poor people and brown here and globally.

Oh yeah and then there are the treasonous resister's like whistle blowers, protestors who need to be droned. Any enemy of the state anywhere globally who resists this global transnational fascistic empire's interest's I'd say the NSA gives the Stasi gives a good run for it's money. None of these assholes are Hitler. The circumstances and history of each batch of nasty ass 'fascist' types who get power and claim inevitability by praying on the worst aspects of the human psyche differs. I know it when I see it and the current by-partisan government of the USA,USA, USA, look to me to be a major threat to the world no matter what name you call it.

I go with Trump as a lesser more palatable manageable evil. He is either a spanner in the works or a ringer to scare the crap out of any one with democratic longings. He's the wild card, the joker in the pack. Or is he? These days I kind of think that he is playing Obama's role in reverse a foil so scary that we will all consent to giving consent The Mad bomber. At the least it will be entertaining to see how they run on both sides of the aisle.

Yeah right Trumps a a lunatic but then again what is The Mad Bomber? A more effective crazy woman, a psycho killer who as SoS showed us what she's about. A figurehead and enforcer a major facilitator for the current owners of the world. Neither of these candidates are Hitler or Attila the Hun or Vlad the Impalor.They have their own unique place in history. Hillary kind of looks like Catherine the Great or maybe Margret Thacher who will implement global wars that make the Falklands look like what they were. Grenada comes to mind. what were dealing with doesn't hold a candle to The Iron Lady's and Rayguns reign.

As for the Silvio Berlusconi comparison the only thing that's off is that the Italian's do not have the worlds largest military killing machine at the disposal of the corporate crooks evil fingertips.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:40am — CantStoptheSignal

I think he's working with her.

I'm working myself up to make a plea to people not to vote for him--and I really, really hate doing that; I try never to tell anybody who to vote for.

This is driving me crazy, though, because I see good people trying to vote against someone they hate--and they end up voting for her fucking BFF who's pretending to fight her so she won't have to see any real opposition.

Didn't we have enough of this with Obama? This is the dumber version.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:24pm — SmartAleq

Trump reminds me of Lyndon Johnson

Johnson was bluff, pragmatic, a bit of a bully and an asshole who really liked putting the fear of god into people. He was a racist who nonetheless did a massive amount to strengthen race relations and give civil rights to POC. He'd say shitty things and he was a son of a bitch and a narcissist and driven and could be a total jerk to anyone who pissed him off. And yet he managed to put a shit ton of very sound legislation into law and did millions a lot of good in spite of it.

I don't think Trump is worthy to shine LBJ's loafers but I can see the appeal he has--if he had a higher IQ and some grasp of, well, anything he'd likely make a good president. Mostly because narcissists need to be loved and worshipped and being the magnanimous daddy is a great way to get that ego boost so a narcissist will shower you with all kinds of compliments and presents and love--but if you aren't grateful enough they'll get their attention by making you absolutely miserable until you beg them to stop. Thing is though, that once you figure out what they need and make sure they get it you can go your way undisturbed by them in the least. The'll strut and preen and sure, that's annoying to watch but much better that than some fucking Gollum clone holed up in a cave obsessing how they're gonna make you pay for that wisecrack you made fifty years ago. Just sayin'.

—

"Nothing's wrong, son, look at the news!" -- Firesign Theater

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:29pm — Linda Wood

What made Hitler dangerous

was that he was armed to the teeth.

Churchill, in The Gathering Storm, chronicles German rearmament as a direct result of U.S. loans and industrial development.

pg. 49

A general scheme had thus been put into action by which all the new factories, and many of the old, founded with American and British loans for reconstruction, were designed from the outset for speedy conversion to war, and volumes could be written on the thoroughness and detail with which this was planned...

Hitler was a nobody. U.S. banks and industrial leaders made him a threat to the world.

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 7:46pm — Caerus

Jennifer Lawrence

Seriously, why would anyone care what Jennifer Lawrence thinks?

Mon, 10/03/2016 - 8:49pm — lunachickie

I finally decided

that was snark. I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I took it Wink

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:14am — elenacarlena

I'm telling you, the great modern thinkers are

from Kentucky.

See Thomas Merton. And Wendell Berry. And now Jennifer Lawrence. George Clooney. And Elena Carlena. Biggrin

—

Please check out Pet Vet Help, and consider joining us to help pets! Thank you.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:09am — HenryWallace

For the past 8 years, we've heard Obama is not a king. If

elected, Trump will not be one, either.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 1:09am — Linda Wood

Barack Obama

is a captive of the CIA/Military Industrial Complex. which is fascist. This cadre runs our federal government and has since World War II.

Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and/or their running mates would also be captives of this untouchable cartel. The only president who dared to stand up to them, and who if fact removed the key fascist operative, Allen Dulles, from his position as CIA director, was killed shortly thereafter. This is the legacy of Allen Dulles, of industrial treason, and of fascism in our government. Simply put, it is big oil married to psychopathic killers.

Tue, 10/04/2016 - 6:37am — CantStoptheSignal

With you on Dulles & the CIA--though there are other

big players that you don't mention--but what on earth makes you think Clinton and Trump would be captives? They're not captives, they're mid-level managers for the cartel. Marketing division.

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Why President Trump wouldn't be the end of the world

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