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Why isn't WGTOW as popular as MGTOW? (self.AskWomen)

justice_warrior が 投稿

I saw a post here about MGTOW and wondered why haven't I heard about the other equivalent? After some Googling, seems WGTOW is no where near as popular of a movement, but I couldn't figure out why that is. 🤔

What are your thoughts on this?

Please no graceless generalizations

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[–]♀peppermind 63ポイント64ポイント  (10子コメント)

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because women who do their own thing without men don't feel the need to announce their intentions, much less require the support of a social "movement".

[–]♀joannagoanna 36ポイント37ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah if I felt the need to "go my own way" (...not date?) I wouldn't need to loudly announce it repeatedly to everyone. Me not dating doesn't need fanfare. I legit have not heard a single reason why it needs to be a "movement." Just don't fucking date. Aghhhh

[–]todayonbloopers 55ポイント56ポイント  (5子コメント)

''i'm giving up you females for good''

''k''

''i mean i'm no longer dating''

''what a devastating loss''

''you'll regret it when you no longer have men to divorce rape''

''ok''

''with the advent of sex bots you will be obsolete''

''have fun with that bye''

''enjoy the end of the human race''

''there are like a million non-bitter men to date we're good''

''this is really serious''

''fucking go your own way already goddamn''

i think it's because men, at large, define their success largely by getting laid. hell, even subreddits for men that claim to be about self improvement and not caring what women think ultimately judge the ''success'' of members by how many women they (supposedly) trick into sleeping with them and discard.

the reason it needs to be a big Thing is because they're fighting against their own self-imposed definition of success. members of MGTOW know that according to masculine standards, they are failures for not dating or getting laid, and screaming from the rooftops is a way to try to feel better about their ''choice''. women don't have such a need..

[–]♀joannagoanna 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

That would make more sense of there weren't a large portion of MGTOW that still sleeps with women, they just don't marry them, or spend their precious money/time on them like some pathetic beta cuck or whatever.

[–]todayonbloopers 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol, i know. the in-fighting between the ~true MGTOWs and the ones who still date can get pretty juicy

[–]♀mintyJulips 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

THis post is perfect and hilarious. Well said.

[–]todayonbloopers 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think you'll be happy to hear that there is another movement for people like us called BGTOW! join us, hive sister

[–]riggorous 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think it's because men, at large, define their success largely by getting laid.

To be fair, women at large define their success by their romantic relationships with men, and this attitude is much more pervasive than the 16 year old virgin thinking that Red Pillers are stuck in. I think it's still true in 2016 that being single as a woman (especially as a woman of a certain age) carries a much bigger stigma than being single as a man, and that, in parallel, being in a relationship elevates a woman's social status and can act as an almost universal counterweight to her "flaws". I suspect the reason that WGTOW isn't a thing is twofold and a lot less glamorous: one, that being single is still embarrassing to many women, and two, that WGTOW would basically be feminism.

[–]justice_warrior[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Women doing their own thing don't need to announce their intentions like men do. I think you might be on to something. But that still leaves the question - why?

Why do men need social support for something like this whereas women do not?

[–]♀RadBenjamin 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nobody needs a social movement to be okay with not getting laid.

MGTOW just want to whine. Like that asshole at the party who gets pissy and says he's leaving, but then hangs around by the door threatening to seriously leave now. Dude, you've been standing there for like three hours, GTFO or shut up already.

[–]todayonbloopers 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do men need social support for something like this whereas women do not?

my theory? bc MGTOW attracts a small, vocal minority of men, mostly the kind who use reddit and the same demographics, who revel in victimhood and whining. MGTOWS/foreveralone/TheRedPill are just different paths the same dudes take, none of which actually involve soul-searching and represent a ''tier'' of acceptable victimhood in the community.

redpill, for example, seems to tolerate relatively little whining (instead opting for compensatory narcissism), MGTOW is a grab bag with the whiners mostly taking over, and don't even go over to FA/trucels if you value not being sucked into a vortex of bitterness and delusion.

[–]♀senselessviolets 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I'm not interested in relationships, but I've never thought of it as being part of a movement, it's just me doing what I want to do. My focus is on the things I genuinely care about (interests, hobbies, career, fitness, etc), so I tend to talk about these rather than all the stuff in the world I'm not interested in.

[–]todayonbloopers 46ポイント47ポイント  (4子コメント)

because women seem to be able to do their own thing without lingering by the doorway announcing that they mean it, they're leaving, like, right now. leeeeeaaaviiing...

spinsterhood isn't a deathly fate anymore. and i think it's much more common for women to be fed up with men and fully confident in that decision, whereas MGTOW types seem to be very much trying to convince themselves that they're okay without women.

i've met plenty of ''WGTOW'' women, the most delightful was an ex's grandma, who invited us over for the most elaborate coffee and cake party i've ever seen to celebrate her abusive ex husband dying.

[–]♀The3rdMistress 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a beautiful reason for a party. A little morbid, with cake and happiness. I like it.

[–]todayonbloopers 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

it was so adorably hateful! she never spoke ill of him or men in general, but she was just so gleeful and not a hint of outright malice. her only regret was the fact that she walked with a rolator, so she couldn't dance on his grave

[–]justice_warrior[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You mention spinsterhood. I Googled to find the male version of that and all that came back was "Bachelor". I feel like those two words have a different connotation associated with them.

[–]todayonbloopers 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

yep, and women did the heavy lifting themselves to take the stigma out of being ''old maids''. ''bachelor'' isn't a stigmatized word in the same way, yet still we have these dudes going on like they're saints going against the status quo. like another commenter said, it's just an excuse to whine, don't fire me i quit, etc.

[–]♀RadBenjamin 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

Every person I've met who was actually happy to be single did their own thing instead of screeching ad nauseum about how they were "going his/her own way".

Every MGTOW I've had the misfortune to come across claims to not want a relationship, but it's the only thing they focus on. Instead of "eh, I'm cool doing me", we see "evil spermjacking hamsters! I don't need them and I'm going to waste all my time making sure you know about it instead of actually doing what I want."

Every woman I've met who gave up on dating actually did what she wanted without making a big deal out of it or announcing to everyone who would listen that she's "so fucking over men, seriously."

[–]justice_warrior[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wonder if the MGTOW who are vocal are a subset of a larger group of your "eh, I'm cool doing me" types. If thats the case, I suppose we'd never really know because they're not making much noise over it.

[–]♀RadBenjamin 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

If they were actually okay with being single they wouldn't be talking about "going their own way".

MGTOW is a Redpill thing. "Women won't date me because I don't think they're people, fuck them and their expectations of men, the hypergamous harpies!"

[–]♀WordyWordWords 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

Probably because any possible WGTOW movement is likely already co-opted under the broader idea of simply being an ‘Independent Woman’.

[–]justice_warrior[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now that I think about it, I don't often see men claiming they're an 'Independent Man'. Maybe thats why they need a separate movement?

[–]♀brightorangetree 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly wasn't even aware that WGTOW was a thing. MGTOW just seems like the polar opposite of radical feminism in the way they market it so maybe it's become more popular among anti feminist men as something to grasp on to. Women who don't get married I never saw as being part of a movement it just seems like some women do their own thing where as MGTOW has become more of a collective of people patting each other on the back and saying that the world is now a terrible place for men and marriage is a disadvantage so they don't need women or whatever.

I just think WGTOW hasn't caught as much steam as a movement because they don't have a particular opponent to demonize the most successful movements convince it's members that they are oppressed in some way or there is a way out of their misery. Independent unmarried women seem perfectly happy with themselves and they don't need a support circle.

[–]♀Niapp 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Admittedly I didn't know much about MGTOW before that post, but from reading their sub, they seem to blame the problem on women- that they're devious, that they're picky, that they're just looking for handsome rich suckers to take care of them, etc. And that seems to be what unites them as a sub, that they feel undervalued and demeaned by women.

I just don't see the same thing happening with women (at least straight women) who give up on dating. I think for guys there's more leeway to say they're not going to date because of the whole "oh he's a bachelor, guys are just like that, he'll settle down one day" belief we see a lot in society and in media. I think there's waaaaaay more pressure on women to always be open to relationship and to be generally appealing, so I think a women saying she's opting out is going to lead to that woman blaming herself for something she feels is wrong with her, rather than deciding men are the main problem. I also don't see women deciding to make this huge a deal about it either.

After writing this I remembered groups like those around the S.C.U.M. Manifesto that charged being in a relationship with a man was affirming the patriarchy and should be rejected. That would be the most similar kind of group I can think of.

[–]thelonelyfourist 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have basically gone my own way--quit trying to date after a bunch of rejection. I don't want to hate men and I feel like if I keep trying to date the frustration is going to get to me eventually. That's the difference: I have no interest in screaming at men about how much they suck for failing to be with me, I'm just going to move on and put my energy into something more rewarding.

[–]cyanocobalamin 13ポイント14ポイント  (11子コメント)

It has been done already. There used to a very radical group of hardcore feminists called "Lesbian Separatists". Their claim was that they could never be free living in a society with men, so their goal was to go find an island or a deserted area and form their own society.

Like Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) they never quite got around to the Going part.

[–]♀malevolentsentient 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are still successful lesbian communes out there. Not a lot, but lesbian separatism is alive and well, they just don't publicize or whine about men like the mgtow crowd.

I'm not really sure that those communities are analogous though.

[–]cyanocobalamin 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

they just don't publicize or whine about men like the mgtow crowd.

I think that is because the MGTOWs want attention and want relationships.

The lesbian separatists are probably getting both in their own communities from their own gender. No motivation to make noise.

[–]♀malevolentsentient 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anything they'd rather stay under the radar. Can't blame the ladies tbh.

[–]ohtheheavywater 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats the difference. MGTOW aren't going their own way, they're trying to berate women into acting the way they "should" to keep them from leaving. Lesbian separatists actually want nothing to do with men and in many cases have achieved that.

[–]♀fullmoonhermit 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't hate men, but I would totally sign up for that island.

[–]cyanocobalamin 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you are a gay woman it really is an incredible deal.

It reminded me of a t-shirt I saw in college mocking military recruitment ads.

The shirt had a drawing of a young bald man on it with a balloon caption saying

Shave my head and live with men? Where do I sign up?!

[–]♀upatstars 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There used to be, not sure if still is, the "political lesbian" movement as well. My mom was briefly involved with it some years ago.

[–]cyanocobalamin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think it was the same thing as *GTOWs.

*GTOWs are about people forsaking relationships with the opposite sex and going off in their lives on their own.

The women I met who were political lesbians told me that they didn't sexually crave women, but they agreed so much with where lesbian feminists were coming from that they wanted to call themselves lesbians, though they were not gay.

A modern analouge to this would be calling yourself a "straight ally", though that isn't the same thing, as it is far less of investment. It isn't identifying with the other group.

[–]♀upatstars 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, my mom's group was more similar to going their own way than what you describe. Perhaps there were different versions of it at the time. Her group was a group of feminist women who at some point decided men were awful and not worth the space in their life. They were attempting to either force their sexuality to become gay or shut their sexuality down entirely so as to be able to go on with their lives without men involved romantically or sexually. It wasn't an ally sort of thing. It was a go forward without men thing.

[–]♂Manofchalk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

so their goal was to go find an island or a deserted area and form their own society.

Just call the island 'Lesbos' (or conquer the actual island of Lesbos) and it will have gone full circle.

[–]♀allhailchickenfish 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not gonna lie. Had to google. Having said that, yeah, it sounds like the whole "Im gonna make a show of leaving and wait for you to call me back" thing thats been narrated a couple of times already.

[–]cyanocobalamin 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

I know this comment will generate a lot of hate, but I think the root of some guys being MGOTW is a lack of confidence they need for being successful with women or fixing the problems they have getting to that point.

There probably isn't much of a WGTOW, because men are the ones who still do most of the asking out. A pretty cool, but shy, awkward woman can get asked out, have a love life, and never get to the point of having enough fuel to make festering on anger against the opposite sex a hobby.

Since this is reddit I will qualify it by saying that is not the case 100% of the time with every relevant person.

[–]todayonbloopers 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know this comment will generate a lot of hate, but I think the root of some guys being MGOTW is a lack of confidence they need for being successful with women or fixing the problems they have getting to that point.

nah, that's pretty on point. like i said in another comment, the barometer for male success seems to hinge a lot on attracting women, so guys who deem themselves ''hopeless'' might find it easier to make women the problem.

A pretty cool, but shy, awkward woman can get asked out, have a love life, and never get to the point of having enough enough fuel to make festering on anger against the opposite sex a hobby.

a little iffier about this point, personally. i think the difference is more that the shy, awkward, ugly/fat woman is more likely to think that she is the problem and take measures to improve. after all, that information is very available.

the media narrative is that a guy will eventually find a woman who will love him for being ''himself'' if he can just prove how awesome that self is.. somehow, usually through some supernatural means. whereas that is usually accomplished through a makeover where her hair is straightened and she takes off her glasses in the female version of ''nerdy girl gets the guy''.

[–]cyanocobalamin 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

nah, that's pretty on point. like i said in another comment, the barometer for male success seems to hinge a lot on attracting women,

I can't say I agree. I think a lot of men can see themselves as successful if they make a lot of money, win athletic things, or are very good in their careers.

i think the difference is more that the shy, awkward, ugly/fat woman is more likely to think that she is the problem and take measures to improve.

Forever Alone men think that too, but they believe fixing their problems is beyond their reach. I see the Forever Alones and MGTOWs as being cut from the same cloth.

whereas that is usually accomplished through a makeover where her hair is straightened and she takes off her glasses in the female version of ''nerdy girl gets the guy''.

That is one of the MGTOWs/RedPill whiny battle cries. They think a guy has to out, earn a fortune and solve cold fusion to make himself marketable in love, whereas all a woman needs is a makeover. Look at all of the guys on reddit who think makeup is "cheating" ( like growing a beard to cover up an ugly face isn't ).

[–]todayonbloopers 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can't say I agree. I think a lot of men can see themselves as successful if they make a lot of money, win athletic things, or are very good in their careers.

i'll concede that you probably know better than i do as a man. i just wonder why the common subreddits (like redpill and MGTOW) feature relatively few success stories about wealth, bodybuilding, or having a great career? instead they fucking LIVE for ''field reports'' in which they put slurs in their place/fucked them and threw them away. it all comes down to if they can get laid or not in the end, seems to me.

Forever Alone men think that too, but they believe fixing their problems is beyond their reach. I see the Forever Alones and MGTOWs as being cut from the same cloth.

agreed!

That is one of the MGTOWs/RedPill whiny battle cries. They think a guy has to out, earn a fortune and solve cold fusion to make himself marketable in love, whereas all a woman needs is a makeover.

which is funny! bc the same movies that tell women they just need a makeover to show off the wonderful personality inside and win over the guy, the guys are being told that they need to go on a quirky supernatural adventure to prove that they've been a hero capable of doing wonderfully interesting things to the girl who wrote them off before. and somehow have come out of it thinking ''OICCCC i guess i have to become a millionaire go-getter to impress megan fox!''

[–]cyanocobalamin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i just wonder why the common subreddits (like redpill and MGTOW) feature relatively few success stories about wealth, bodybuilding, or having a great career? instead they fucking LIVE for ''field reports''

They are all cut from the same cloth, but they have their differences. Red Pillers are angry, they also think they deserve women and they want to get women, where MGTOWs are content to whine.

Men can also see themselves as successful, but still want sex, and still want trophy GFs. Especially men angry at women the way red pills are. The field reports and tropy GFs are a way of saying "See!" to every woman they wanted, but did not get.

The field reports are to brag, but also to convince themselves and others that they have found a source of power via some ripped off, recycled PUA methods.

The power, being the power, to get sex and get even with the women who they feel rejected them.

[–]Svataben 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Aaaaand once again we have a dude who only considered women to be young, relatively attractive women.

There are lots of women out there who never get asked out.

You'll get downvotes because you're wrong.

[–]cyanocobalamin 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I would bet that many MGOTWs and FAs are either average looking or good looking. Somehow they twisted their thinking so they can't do what they need to do to have love lives they want, and the resentment from that is misdirected at women.

I'm sure that there are many women like them, also average to good looking, with twisted thinking like they have, who never get to the point of having festering resentment, enough for a WGTOW, because some guys asked them out and they have love lifes.

Yes, not all women are good looking or even average looking.

They are probably suffering alone like the MGOTWs.

[–]Svataben 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

And I bet you're wrong. Look at how us making guesses doesn't matter at all. ;)

You forget the one, massive thing that separates the genders here: The entitlement. Boys and men seem to think that they deserve a girlfriend as a reward for existing and not being completely horrible. And pop-culture such as movie plots etc supports that view.

Girls and women are never taught to be so entitled.

[–]♂SonOfTheNorthe 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hope you're keeping yourself warm with that blanket statement.

[–]Svataben 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am, actually. Always found facts so warming.

You do understand that the above statement isn't in any way, shape, or form saying 'every single one', right? I mean, you get that, right?

[–]cyanocobalamin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I highly doubt that there are not shy women who wouldn't have love lifes if not for men asking them out, and if not for that would grow resentful like the MGTOWs do.

It is a fairly human thing for people to get resentful when they don't have their needs met.

[–]Svataben -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I edited my above post after your answer. Just thought you should know. :)

[–]♀mareenah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because women can't be independent, they need a guy to provide /s

[–]version4point0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

One could make the argument that WGTOW has been around for a long time. Women file the vast majority of divorces in this country and there's a much greater support system for women who divorce or choose not to get married.

As a dude, the MGTOW things seems like a bit much, but to say that it's a reflection of some kind of strange male desire for attention is totally wrong.

[–]♂Manofchalk -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

MGTOW to my understanding is a reactionary movement to general feminism, while WGTOW is a reaction too that.

Each reactive movement will have less of an audience because you are getting further away from the source. Plus it also doesn't help that WGTOW values are encapsulated, in broad strokes, in general feminism which is a far larger movement.