全 73 件のコメント

[–]fluffhoof 83ポイント84ポイント  (7子コメント)

I don't talk about my feelings and when pressed find that I can't (writing this is incredibly difficult for me)

Beyond professional help of a therapist/counsellor, you can practice this. Just take a few minutes out of your day and write down how you're feeling. Even if it starts out with you writing 'nothing' or 'angry' or something like that every day, you'll be training yourself to think about it, and with time, maybe you'll write down something else. Or maybe you'll elaborate 'i'm angry, because some asshole cut me off in traffic'.

[–]0vinq0 43ポイント44ポイント  (6子コメント)

Just to add onto this, maybe also take a look at some emotion charts to facilitate this. I hope that doesn't seem condescending. I personally improved my understanding of my own emotional states by first learning about the diversity of emotions. Understanding the nuances of your emotions can help you address them more effectively.

[–]Ciceros_Assassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm glad to see this so close to the top, because in a lot of cases, what we're talking about is just emotional literacy in the "knows the words and can use them" sense. It's tough to feel like you're in touch with what you're feeling if you don't have the language to describe it, and that's where emotion charts can be really handy.

[–]TheIcelander [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I really prefer this chart because it helps me break down the emotion, rather than trying to find it amongst many others.

[–]Kiltmanenator [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah this is much better, IMO. You can start with big, easily identifiable emotions and narrow it down from there.

There is a colored version out there somewhere that makes it easier to use.

[–]0vinq0 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there are actually a lot of different ones. It's good to mention that. Here's another kind. I picked the one with faces, because having those genuinely makes it easier for me. lol It's good to mention the different types, because different ones will work better for different people.

[–]goocy [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Cool! Do you have more? Preferably, something more structured?

[–]0vinq0 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Here are a few that got posted above:

1

2

Additional ones I found on Google:

3

4 (different kind)

5

6

There are quite a few out there. I found these by searching for "emotion chart" and "feelings chart," so if you search for those or similar terms you may find more.

[–]raziphel 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Who you are" and "how you express yourself" are two different things. It's important that you not confuse them, because the latter can be changed for the better with practice.

Have you talked to your wife about the issues you have? I'm guessing that neither of you are particularly good at discussing these things or listening (because most people aren't), I would suggest speaking to a couples counselor. Think of that person as a translator, referee, psych/relationship expert, etc. You wouldn't redo the electrical lines in your house or change the transmission on your car without learning about it first from an expert, right? It's not really different here.

Reigning in emotional reactions (to things like frustration) can be really hard, but that's definitely something worth doing. Not being physically violent is a great step, but there's more to it than just that.

Regarding your children... adore them in your own way. Think of the ways you'd have wanted your dad to treat you as a kid, and start working on that. Even if that means teaching them how to do traditionally manly stuff, telling them "that's really awesome" or "I'm really proud of you" when they do something cool.

Remember, you don't have to do a complete 180 in a day. You just have to set a goal and work toward it.

[–]da_persiflator 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

Here are my suggestions as somebody who had some issues earlier in life with aspects of toxic masculinity (responding with violence too many times, trying to impose on others or follow religiously the whole mantra of a "real guy" , not talk about feelings )

  • After you react with aggression , try to deconstruct the whole episode . Did the situation justify it? If not, why did you do that? Did you try to maintain an image of control? Try to inspire fear because you were losing face? I think it's really important to identify what exactly triggers an overblown reaction and work from there. And i mean exactly, not some generic stuff like i felt afraid. Afraid of what exactly? Ask yourself questions until you reach a clear answer. Then you build from there.Have patience with the whole process. It won't fix itself in a couple of weeks.
  • Again, ask yourself why you don't talk about feelings? You don't trust anybody? You feel ashamed with them? Ashamed of talking about them in general? Yes? Why? Why does it matter if you're afraid, sad, depressed ? Afraid of being weak? It doesn't matter. You're not going to do it in front of strangers, but in front of your wife who i'm gonna assume loves you and won't prey on that vulnerability. Another presumption i'm gonna make is the fact that she did this with you ( share feelings) and i'm 90% sure at least once it was hard for her too. So she showed a sign of trust by doing that, why not do the same ?
  • For the sex part - i don't truly believe there are people who can't just stop. I think it's mostly because of the way we're raised - each fuck and each partner adds to our value . But this is just an opinion of a non-professional. And it's a bit more generic, not addressed to you especially. Just wanted to throw this idea out
  • Distance yourself from people that maintain the standards for toxic masculinity. If not completely, at least limit your time with them. Try to dodge tomorrow's beer if you know they're just gonna mock anything not "alpha" enough or whatever they do.
  • Try to take "advantage" if your wife is willing to help. Don't be afraid to talk to her. You can start by saying you wanna change yourself and give her clear examples of what you wanna stop doing. Or if not her, another person that seems capable of doing it . I had the great fortune of having my best friend, without whom i would've been the same person i was 10 years ago

TL:DR - You need a lot of introspection, and it needs to be used as a drill, not just a generic scan

Sorry if it seems rushed. Have to leave work.

Hope this helps, though it's mostly drawn from personal experience and ,given the whole difference between individuals etc etc, it might seem or actually be shit for you. Fingers crossed it'll aid even a bit

Later edit: what helps me a great deal when the frustration starts building up is finding a moment of tranquility from when i was a kid and trying to recreate it: like trying to maintain balance when walking on the edge of a curb, or having a song play in my head. Anything that's not too complicated to reproduce

[–]TheIcelander [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You're not going to do it in front of strangers, but in front of your wife who i'm gonna assume loves you and won't prey on that vulnerability.

I would put a caveat on this because suddenly acting vulnerable to someone can be very jarring, and can cause them to react negatively. At least, that's what's happened to me.

[–]sonnyclips [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is very true. My wife gets mad at me when I'm sick, she doesn't mean too it's just panic inducing to see me that way. I'd ease into those waters. I just started therapy for a few reason but the impetus was some dude getting aggressive with me led to a pretty scary confrontation between him and me in a parking lot. He'd have creamed me but at some point the guy who started out picking on me was clearer headed than I was and walked away. 10 years ago that would have made me feel good, now I just feel fucking ridiculous about the whole thing.

[–]aeiluindae 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's worth noting that a lot of character traits are harmful when taken to extremes. For example, both extremes of assertiveness/dominance are very bad. An extremely non-assertive person will get taken advantage of and be unhappy because they have a hard time speaking up for themselves. An overly-assertive person will tend to accidentally run over the needs and feelings of less assertive people unless they specifically focus on listening to others and taking their wants/needs into account.

And when people say "Men aren't....", they mean that all men aren't that way. Of course, some are. So are some women. And so are some people who don't fit into the neat gender/sex boxes. There are trends in behaviour, and it's useful to be aware of those, but everybody I've gotten to know is an exception in some way or another (some more than others, but that's how things work) and those stereotypes shouldn't define us.

Liking sex a lot and with a lot of people doesn't make you a bad person, so long as you behave ethically (being honest, respecting boundaries, etc). You may be a person who finds more fulfillment in an open relationship of some variety. However, you also made a promise to your wife and should of course honor that promise. You could renegotiate some of those terms, though given many people's prejudices that may simply end things immediately. That's a very big discussion that I'm not really equipped to participate in, so I'll let you seek out some resources if you wish.

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with being taciturn or not feeling much emotional connection to some things. Most days I barely care emotionally if my own parents live or die, but nonetheless I still think they're important to me and I only want the best for them. Not having your emotions all up in your face all the time helps you make better decisions, so long as you don't ignore them and how they affect you (because they do).

Aggression and recklessness can even be an advantage. For example, that kind of person would be much more likely to start a business. It obviously has to be tempered with some wisdom and care if you want the best chance of success and to make fewer dumb mistakes, but someone without a certain level of recklessness wouldn't even get to the point of trying. We wouldn't have a lot of the big internet companies of today without reckless people.

Long and the short of it is, figure out how to channel the way you are as a person into doing good stuff. Work with and befriend people who complement who you are and can check you if you start going off in a bad direction. I have a friend who routinely talks to me about ethical stuff because he knows has trouble properly evaluating the impact his actions will have on others. And he's learning. His intuitions are much more accurate now.

Keep working on building up the areas where you feel weakest, too. Keep learning how to talk about your feelings and how to listen to others, how to look before you leap, how to talk things out rather than punch through them. Just because you might suck at it doesn't mean you shouldn't try and it doesn't mean you're denying who you are either. You're just growing in all directions. After all, everyone has skills they need to work on. When I started as a lifeguard, I was quite shy and I had to learn how to give orders that would be followed. I sucked at it for a while. I always felt bad for just telling people what to do. I got better at it over time and I'm glad I did. It's a valuable skill to have in an emergency. But I also didn't change fundamentally. I don't talk to people that way unless I have to. I'm much more likely to have a quiet conversation where I explain why they should behave and I like doing that more, but having the choice available to me makes me better as a person.

So yeah, just try to be your best self. Find constructive outlets for your tendencies. Figure out the so-called "required secondary powers" that make your strengths into real strengths. Self-improvement is a pain in the ass a lot of the time, but it's almost never bad.

[–]snwborder52 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Appreciating your desire to not cause harm anymore. Best advice is to learn Mindfulness and Non Violent Communication. Here's a basic overview of one format of NVC.

Tips:

  • Pay attention to how your body feels. Your emotions. Your thoughts. Your surroundings. Mindfulness is simply being aware.
  • Really listen to others. Become curious about their worlds. "What is that like? How does it feel in your body? etc."
  • Ask for impact. "When I did x, how did you feel?"
  • Own your shit. If you feel blame/anger towards something look to find what it is in you that is causing that outward projection (because it is a projection and it is your thing).

If you live in Austin/Boulder/SF PM me and I can direct you to some dope authentic relating groups.

[–]F4nboy 11ポイント12ポイント  (20子コメント)

Do you want to change? Why should you change?

Would you be happy if people would just let you be who you are or do you genuinely want to change?

[–]thedeadpill[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (19子コメント)

I want to change because my marriage is falling apart. I care about her, but, I can't seem to convince her that's the case.

I'm not sure if I'd be happy if no one else gave me any guff. I mean, I think I could be. I have trouble being content or 'happy' with things.

[–]F4nboy 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

Have you asked her what she needs from you to feel cared about? If not, how do you know that her expectations are reasonable and the issues doesn't lie with her displaying traits of (and I use this term with gritted teeth because I hate both gendered versions of it) toxic femininity?

The point I'm trying to make is - maybe the problem isn't you, maybe you just feel like it is you because people keep telling you that your personality is toxic and you're starting to believe it?

Maybe the problem is both of you? Either way, you can't tell without assessing WHY she feels like she feels regarding you and your behaviour.

[–]thedeadpill[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (15子コメント)

I sure have. She wants someone to be excited about new things with. Only, I'm not really excitable. I like the things I like, and don't really care about a lot of the things she likes. I think it's cool that she has her hobbies, but, sometimes I just can't bring myself to care about her jam, you know what I mean?

Nobody tells me my personality is toxic except articles on the internet and my wife. I'm well-liked by everyone in my office, I'm pretty sure my children like me (though they are sometimes offput by me not being as touchy-feely as their mother). It's rare someone doesn't get along with me, though, I don't care much for fools, myself.

I don't doubt the problem is both of us; it's never only one person's fault. But, I want to do my part, right?

[–]raziphel 19ポイント20ポイント  (6子コメント)

as a divorced guy...

you do your part, and she has to do her part, but you have to do them at the same time, in ways that each other can see. even then, sometimes it doesn't work. this is super hard and a lot of people fail. You're both going to have to move beyond your comfort zones, and that can be hard as well.

tell her flatly: "I don't know what to do here and need your help. What do you need to see from me?"

Then, when she gives you some suggestions, respond with something like "I know it won't be perfect, but I'll do my best."

If there's something you need to see from her, you should be able to ask too.

note the difference between "what do you need from me" and "what do you need to see from me." Try to get to tangible actions instead of vague feelings. Statements like "I need you to love me" are difficult because they can be vague. when you or she say something, do your best to keep it in mind and work on it. If she needs romantic gestures (like flowers) to feel loved, then do it.

Your jam example is super easy. All you have to do is tell her it's delicious (assuming it is) and eat it on occasion. Do you have a particular flavor you like, preferably one she's made before? Ask her to make some for you. If she wants you to try different stuff, just reply with "I'm a simple guy. I like [flavor]."

"Getting along" with someone is easy. Living with them is harder, and spending 20-60 years with them is extra hard.

The issue here might be a lack of emotional communication. How often do you smile at them, make jokes, and do fun stuff?

[–]F4nboy 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is great advice, in particular the different between "what do you need from me" and "what do you need to see from me". The seeing part is easy.

I found the concept of "love languages" really interesting. People express and receive love in different ways. If she says "I want to see that you love me" but likes to receive love through acts of service (my wife for example likes to be "looked after") but you express your love in another way (giving gifts) then she won't see that you ARE showing your love.

Asking what she wants to see from you is a good way of identifying HOW she needs to feel loved.

Your jam example is super easy. All you have to do is tell her it's delicious (assuming it is) and eat it on occasion. Do you have a particular flavor you like, preferably one she's made before? Ask her to make some for you. If she wants you to try different stuff, just reply with "I'm a simple guy. I like [flavor]."

We read this in very different ways. You think she actually makes jam? I read it as in "yeah, thats my jam" as in "thats my thing". Made me chuckle because making jam never crossed my mind.

[–]not-very-creativ3 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I read it both ways and I originally thought the same suggestion was the beginning of a joke.

[–]Craylee [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

We read this in very different ways. You think she actually makes jam? I read it as in "yeah, thats my jam" as in "thats my thing". Made me chuckle because making jam never crossed my mind.

I mean, to be fair, the advice he gave is still pretty good for the actual situation!

Tell her that her hobbies are good, it makes you happy to see her happy, be supportive of her doing it and occasionally do it with her. Ask her to do her hobbies that you do enjoy with her. If she wants you to try another one, "I'm a simple man. I like [this hobby]." haha, maybe.

[–]F4nboy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Haha. Yeah I know right. People forget you don't have to be 100% into 100% of the stuff our SO does. My wife doesn't really care about the day to day stuff with my hobbies but she does listen when my team wins, asks me how training is going etc.

[–]raziphel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Finding small things at the store that relate to the hobby and giving them as gifts is an easy way, too. "Here baby, I found this jam cookbook you might like" (to continue the example), and so on. It doesn't have to be big, but making the effort to be supportive is what counts.

[–]raziphel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The seeing part is only easy if you know to do stuff that the other person can see. It helps avoid things like:

"I need you to need me!"

"But I do need you!"

[–]Cyglml [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I have pretty different hobbies from my wife, but we do a pretty good job being "excited that the other is excited" if that makes sense. She doesn't really care about archery, but when I achieve a goal that I've had, she's excited for me, even if she doesn't care about it a bit. I do the same for her with her things. Just throwing it out there.

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

we do a pretty good job being "excited that the other is excited" if that makes sense.

This is something I'm kind of incapable of in a genuine sense. I understand it's a defect, and I do my best to pantomime it, but I just don't feel anything for other people's successes.

[–]raziphel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's not a defect, it's just not a thing you've learned yet. The more you practice, the better at it you'll be.

"Finding happiness in the happiness of others" is typically called compersion.

[–]F4nboy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah for sure I totally get it. I'm a hobbies person but my wife isn't and it is difficult when she doesn't get excited about things that I do.

Your personality isn't toxic, regardless of what the internet says, however, that is no reason to stop working on yourself (which it sounds like you want to).

What sort of job do you do? How come you can't bring yourself to care about her hobbies? What are they? Anything you can grab onto that has a thread of interest that you can exploit? For example, I see you like working out; if she runs, you can share in each others PB times and lifts even though you are technically doing seperate activities - there is still a thread of connection there that you can use to bring you together.

[–]yarow12 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

She wants someone to be excited about new things with.

You mean like a girlfriend? It sounds like what she needs is a feminine guy-friend.

Nobody tells me my personality is toxic except articles on the internet and my wife.

Consider the possibility that no one is willing to tell you. I've lived with someone who was, quite frankly, too insensitive to others but seemed to expect people to be sensitive to him.

I'm wondering why she married you, assuming you've been like this since y'all first met. Did she expect you to change?

I'm pretty sure my children like me (though they are sometimes offput by me not being as touchy-feely as their mother).

I like to call that "balance." In upbringing, my father and mother were on opposite sides of The Force. He was on the Dark Side when people "deserved" it, and she was on the Light Side in general. This caused me endless confusion as to how I "should" behave or react to things. Atleast I now know both peaceful and violent solutions to different situations. Which side am I, though? Well, I'm leaning on The Gray.

What I'm saying is this:
Sometimes, it takes a Stone Cold Steve Austin. Other times, it takes a Little Mermaid.

it's never only one person's fault. But, I want to do my part, right?

She should also be doing hers.

My problem is that I don't have any sense of identity beyond these aspects, and I don't know what to do about them.

Let me guess, that's how you were raised, right? Get into the root of it so that you can actually understand it. From there, you can act accordingly.

I'm not going to suddenly start adoring children tomorrow.

And you (probably) shouldn't if that simply isn't who you are.

[–]Ciceros_Assassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree with most of what you say here, but that first line... Is the implication that only a feminine guy-friend would be interested in and excited about her pursuits and passions? I mean, I don't think I could be in a relationship with someone whose hobbies and activities weren't something I found interesting, nor someone who didn't feel the same about mine, and I doubt most women are different in that regard.

[–]Man-jusri [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I would definitely recommend relationship counseling. With my partner, I've found it very useful in establishing a structured setting for communication. It's been really helpful during rough patches.

Like yourself, I'm pretty stereotypically masculine in many ways (which doesn't bother me). In particular, I recoil at 'relationship talks', and I tend toward a very utilitarian view of emotions (I often practice stoicism as a way of 'keeping things together'). Contrary to a lot of those articles, I think that 'masculine' emotional patterns actually have value, and I don't self-flaggelate for manifesting them.

But when two people have very different communicative/emotional styles, it can be really helpful to build a bridge to reach a point of common understanding. A quality relationship counselor can be really helpful with that, from my experience.

[–]nightride [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The point I'm trying to make is - maybe the problem isn't you, maybe you just feel like it is you because people keep telling you that your personality is toxic and you're starting to believe it?

Uh. Ok, but the things he mentioned here are abnormal and should be cause for concern. Poor impulse control, little empathy, and anger issues to the degree described here does not healthy behaviour make (feeling angry all the time, being incapable of feeling happiness/contentment, and being physically unable to empathize with his wife). This isn't just a guy being "taciturn". Not saying that he's the only one to blame for the marital issues but this guy needs help and trying to normalize this isn't particularly helpful.

[–]LongUsername [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I care about her, but, I can't seem to convince her that's the case.

Have you looked at all at "The 5 love languages"? Take the survey and ask your wife to take it as well. Different people value different things in a relationship and this helps you figure out what you value and your partner values in relationships. Then you can work on meeting the stuff your partner values and hopefully she'll work on meeting the parts you value.

[–]ThatPersonGu 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why should you? If there are things you can do better, then maybe it's worth a deeper look but why should you worry if you do/don't fit a stereotype? It's not like it's a sin for girls to be caring, kind and nurturing.

Just do you, and get that other people can do them.

[–]MercifulWombat 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because not being able to express the full range of human emotions sucks? Because he wants to be better for his wife?

[–]ThatPersonGu [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I don't disagree. But that doesn't mean this guy needs to become someone else, which is an impression I think he seems to be getting.

You can be "traditionally masculine" and still be an emotional sensitive person.

[–]Ciceros_Assassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You can be "traditionally masculine" and still be an emotional sensitive person.

This is totally true, and it touches on something important for the more general conversation than OP's specific question: there's no "right" way to be a man. Some men simply aren't going to be as expressive with their emotions as others, and that's okay! - as long as that doesn't represent that they really aren't in touch with their emotions.

But I'm reading OP's post differently, that he's reflecting that some of these traits he's exhibiting aren't healthy, that they're negatively impacting his relationships. I get the sense that he wants to be a better man, not a different man.

[–]raziphel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He certainly doesn't have to become someone else. He has to learn to express himself with more nuance and accurate detail.

[–]Arimer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you have friends and hobbies? I moved to a new town and for several years didn't know anyone and as such was kind of a miserable person to my wife and child. Once I took up some hobbies that I wouldn't normally think i was interested in and started meeting people It made my day by day much more enjoyable. Also it gave me male friends to be able to open up to. For me it's easier to talk to guy friends bout problems.

In the end I don't think you need to be someone other than who you are. Those things don't make up you. Find new things that identify you. Do something you've never done before. Focus your energies in other ways. Nothing will change if your day to day stays the same.

Goi to a firing range, TAke up board games, Go mountain biking. Do something you never thought you'd do and own it.

[–]brzcory 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Find a positive thing to do with your negative aspects.

If you respond to frustration with aggression, channel that aggression into action towards a positive response (I'm angry so I'm going to bust ass for 4 hours building a wall, and then tear it down. I might not have anything to show at the end of the day, but I got the anger out and can build a better wall next time from the experience).

If you like sex a lot, get kinky with your wife. Or look into alternative relationships (maybe monogamy isn't for you).

Don't talk about your feelings? You don't have to. Just make sure that when you DO need to talk about them, you have someone to talk to.

There's nothing wrong with being masculine. Sure, we've been socially trained to be masculine. However there is also a natural aspect in it that a lot of modern-day activism likes to ignore. That's OKAY.

That sentence:

"Men are not inherently violent, angry, sex-crazed, irresponsible, apathetic or aggressive. "

Is COMPLETELY wrong from a scientific point of view. We have thousands of years of science telling us that men are inherently more aggressive. That aggression is a good thing, because it's allowed us to be the dominant animal on the planet. It leads to some bad things, but it's good on the whole.

Be you. Do you. Just make sure that you can use your weaknesses as strengths in a positive way.

[–]BeeDice 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

You got any hobbies? What do you do for fun?

[–]thedeadpill[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I work out, critically read and watch films, play video games, drink, occasionally do drugs (edit: Not like, heroin or anything, before anyone goes nuts).

[–]raziphel 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you share the first three with your kids and family?

Instill your love of things with them and use those as an opportunity to bond.

[–]TheIcelander [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I was in a similar situation to you. I was aggressive when frustrated, liked sex too much and with the wrong people, was irresponsible and had trouble talking about my feelings.

I went to therapy and it helped a bit. I tried meditation and it helped a bit. I started exercising and it helped a bit. But I couldn't stick with the last two and therapy kind of plateaued for me. But things have changed dramatically for the better since I started taking an SSRI. A lot of times in men depression comes out as aggression and frustration, and an over-zealous sex drive. I've been on lexapro for two weeks (and kolonopin for anxiety) and my wife, kids, and even boss have noticed a marked improvement in my behavior.

I'm still the sort of any time, anywhere, anyone sort of guy, but I have control over it now, and I can control my aggressive reactions instead of being controlled by them. Mornings are no longer me yelling at the kids to get dressed. Evenings aren't me huffing around about having a bad day and snapping at my wife. And I sleep like a goddamn baby. I'm really excited to see how much more I improve in the future because the change in two weeks has been wonderful.

Another thing that helped me a lot was the book "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman. Since you said elsewhere you enjoy reading I think you should pick it up. It went through the neuroscience of emotion, which helped me to understand what my brain was doing when I would get frustrated and feel the anger start to take over my brain.

If you want to talk more feel free to PM me.

[–]not-very-creativ3 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

"Talking and SSRI" or "taking an SSRI" ?

Honestly curious.

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Medication did nothing for me. I was on an SSRI, and then an an SNRI. The SSRI had a paradoxical effect of making me depressed and unable to function. The SNRI had no effect whatsoever, not even withdrawal.

Thank you for the book recommendation! I'll have a look into it...

[–]nightride [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Just FYI you may just have taken the wrong drugs. For some odd reasons different brands working or not working is very individual. Usually you try more than one kind until you find something that works.

[–]ZephyrLegend [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And, u/thedeadpill, different doses can have different effects, also. The first ever SSRI I took I had a...what did they call it? "Flat affect". I didn't experience emotions, at all. It was fucking bizarre. (That and my sex drive completely went away.)

I had to try a few different things before I found something that worked for me.

[–]vankorgan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sadly, I don't have any real advice for you, except to say that I think you've already taken an enormous first step just by identifying all of this.

Maybe it might be worth identifying some men that you think are masculine and impressive that don't have the qualities you've identified as problematic?

Regardless of what you decide to do, I think it's good that you're trying something.

[–]sobok [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Just FYI, "toxic masculinity" is a phrase that covers the general, socially acceptable version of masculinity, not an individual level of who someone is. When articles write about this, they aren't writing about one specific guy, they're writing about masculinity as a whole.

[–]DariusWolfe [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Just FYI, "toxic masculinity" is a phrase that covers the general, socially acceptable version of masculinity, not an individual level of who someone is.

Either I disagree with you very strongly, or you didn't express this well. Toxic masculinity refers to specific, harmful, behaviors and attitudes associated with men. It is not a blanket term that is interchangeable with masculinity, and does not cover all forms of socially acceptable masculinity.

Those behaviors may or may not be exhibited by particular individuals, and a particular individual may exhibit some forms of toxic masculinity while not exhibiting others.

[–]sobok [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Toxic masculinity refers to specific, harmful, behaviors and attitudes associated with men.

But not a specific man. Yes, individuals can have the tendencies or whatever, but OP believes he, in existence, is toxic. My point is that the people writing the articles are not saying that the people are toxic in themselves, but the social acceptance and believes of what masculinity means is what is toxic.

Being someone who struggles with expressing emotions isn't toxic - it might be a struggle, and frustrating to them and the people around them, but it's not toxic. A society that expects men to not express emotions is toxic.

[–]DariusWolfe [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

OP is making an honest self-assessment, and is saying that the traits described as toxic masculinity largely fit him, personally. He states that "who he is" is harmful in his relationship.

I think you're seeing something that's not there, that being that he's allowing other people to define him as toxic, which isn't the case. He is saying that he exhibits various traits seen as harmful, and he is seeing the harm they're causing in his relationship.

While he may or may not be judging himself more harshly than he should, that's his own call to make, and we don't have enough context to really say.

[–]MercifulWombat 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You remind me of my brother in law. Great guy, but he has trouble talking about his feelings too, and bottles them up until they explode. Used to pound on his brother when they were kids, but as an adult mostly just sulked on his computer when he felt "bad."

Therapy. Find a good therapist, and they'll give you the tools to talk about your shit. There aren't really "good" and "bad" feelings, just good and bad ways of expressing them.

Tangential thought, if you like video games, maybe check out board games? Depending on the age of your kids, there's some pretty great stuff out there beyond the crap like Sorry! and Monopoly.

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm not a bottle until explode guy. I mean, I feel an inarticulate aggression and anger at all times, so, maybe I do bottle, and am constantly seething. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't stop me from treating people fairly, and I think it makes it so I don't shrink from things like other people do. It makes me assertive.

I'd love to see a therapist. Sadly, they're hard to access and expensive. Out of my range, basically.

I really like board games! They've gone really far in the last 10 years. I play them with friends when able, but, between work/kids/home, there just isn't much time to spend on it.

[–]raziphel [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

find a counseling group that offers sessions with grad students at discounted rates. Typically they'll go for ~$15/session.

[–]mynewaccounts [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Everyone needs balance in their life. I don't know if you have looked into the Myers-Briggs personality type, but I am a fairly strong subscriber to it.

I am an ENTJ, which is pretty rare - 2% of the population, but only 1% of women. In a lot of ways ENTJs are "masculine", extroverted, logic-based, decisive people who frequently fail to be in touch with their emotions and the emotions of others.

This personality type tends to get shit done, and in a big way, but a lot of problems are pretty self-evident - hurting other people's feelings, becoming overly commanding/controlling, sometimes having a big thing about vengeance. We can be really horrible to other people, and hold ourselves to impossible expectations.

The thing is, I was really lucky. I was born a female ENTJ, so I was socialized to avoid a lot of the bad aspects of my natural tendencies, so in general I can get along with people and recognize their own and my emotions.

But this is not natural for me. It does not feel natural. I know I don't do it in the way that other people do. Some people have natural emotional reactions to people, for example, if someone is grieving they immediately feel things in response. I think things in response. I am able to logically figure out what the other person is going through and imagine their responses to various reactions from me to select the response I can give that seems most likely to have the result I want. I have learned how to act like a feeling person even though I am not in the concrete, only in the abstract.

My point is that you can learn how to process things in a way that works for you. Your internally workings do not have to mirror everyone else's exactly to be healthy - your version of healthy might just looks different than someone else's.

In some ways it is easier to be born in the gender that your personality seems to function as (born female with a "feminine" personality, or born male with a "masculine" personality), but in other ways problems like yours can arise.

You seem to have some very key pieces in place already: you want to get along with people, you love your wife, and you are committed to the relationship. That is awesome!

I am confident that you can figure out how to make it work given your own personality/history/habits. It is very possible to change actions/responses, as you have already found regarding violence.

As to changing desires... I guess I am not sure that they should be changed... The world needs aggressive people. It needs people who are focused more externally than internally. And sex is damned fun. How you channel these urges is up to you to figure out what is healthy, but it is not necessarily a negative thing to respond to external problems by wanted to destroy them. You don't need to become a different person, just your best person. :)

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

For MBTI test, I've resulted alternately as INTJ and ESTP. I don't hold much stock in those tests because of that; if you take those results seriously, I essentially have two personalities depending on my mood.

Thanks for the advice! :)

[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think that if it is working for you then not talking about your feelings is fine, the stereotypical girl behaviour is associated with poor outcomes like anxiety more frequently than being stoic. It is only when you have serious problems or ones involving an intimate partner that you care about that it becomes a real problem for guys on average.

You could try to start to develop ways to speak about your inner feelings while still maintaining your idea of yourself, how to phrase things so that you don't feel you are being exposed etc.

With the violence bit, taking up a martial sport like MMA/Brazillian Ju-jitsu, boxing or some form of kung fu has worked wonders for me, it really teaches you to be able to control your anger and aggression and channel it into useful things.

Liking sex, even if it is a lot and it doesn't matter all that much who you have it with isn't really a bad thing either, the problem is that sometimes you can hurt people who don't share this view and want something else. Finding a female partner who shares or is receptive to that level of sexuality is also somewhat hard. I can't really tell you how, but it is useful to take practices that you've used in other areas of life and apply them to how to treat people in casual hook up situations.

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I guess, I don't get much alone time to develop ways to communicate my 'inner feelings'. I have a very socially demanding job, and then my wife and children are also very interactive. I rarely get time to myself that isn't devoted to catching up on some other thing.

Yeah, the sex thing is problematic; she wants it way less than I do. I can't hook up with people because she wouldn't like that (we've talked about it, and she'd rather divorce first).

[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Oh, I see. Somehow I thought you were younger than me.

Hmm, I don't think you need alone time to do this, just time with friends and loved ones. I tried this by trying to discern what my feelings or emotions were about something and expressing or phrasing them in a way that wouldn't make others/me feel uncomfortable or exposed. I also read a bunch of books, David Foster Wallace is pretty good for this kind of stuff and you can get most of his books with an audio version. But generally you don't have to, it's not objectively better to be in touch with your inner feelings, only do it if you want to.

I am in no place to give any advice about your situation with your wife so don't take this, but maybe you could make it clear how important physical intimacy is to you or try to improve the experience for her in some way, with massages and 'her focused' activity as well as regular sex. Seriously don't take this advice and good luck.

[–]DariusWolfe [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I can relate to some of what you describe here. I have a hard time processing emotions that are more complicated than happy/angry. Things like sad, anxious, afraid are really easy to just express as anger or irritability, because there's usually a cause or target for you to focus on, rather than having to deal with your internal space, where there are no easy solutions.

Finding out who you really are is a difficult process that involves asking a lot of questions. Like "what do I consider important?" Then following that question up with a series of "Why?" until you've dug down deep enough that you can't ask again.

For instance, you might consider working out important. Why? Because you value physical fitness. Why? Because it's part of being healthy and capable? Why do you value health (or capability; the question may branch at this point)? Because I want to live without being tired or sick all the time, or dying early. Why do you want to live a long time? Because I want to experience all life has to offer. Like what? Like watching my kids grow up and have successful lives of their own. Why? Because I love my kids. Why? Because... they're my kids?

If your questioning follows this line, then you know one of the roots of your love of working out is that you love your kids. Likely it has other roots as well, and following those lines of thought will give you a better idea of who you are and what you value.

Once you know what you value, you can start evaluating your choices in light of those values, and evaluating alternate choices based on how they relate to your values.

Another thing is that it's hard to live a lot of this stuff out loud. Don't ever try to change who you are like a set of clothes. Work on yourself privately, and you'll see the outward behaviors changing as a result; Trying to change the behaviors first will rarely work; Only focus on curbing behaviors that are actively harmful (violence, slurs, etc.); Working from root causes will cause the rest of the behaviors to change naturally over time.

A book I found to be very insightful (though I found it after it was too late for my first marriage) is "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". It focuses on men, since we're (stereo)typically the ones who avoid talking about our problems or feelings, but the behaviors are pretty generally helpful. The basic idea is what I talked about above; Working on yourself to change the outward expression of yourself by focusing on the positive aspects of your true self, and through improving your expression of self, improving your relationship by extension.

[–]AloysiusC [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Who I am is demonstrably harmful.

How exactly, given that you're not physically violent anymore? Could you list all the harm that you think you do by being who you are?

My problem is that I don't have any sense of identity beyond these aspects

Don't you have a job or at least a career aspiration? Or some interest in well anything? I think almost everyone needs a purpose of some kind. Often men find that in a profession.

How do I be someone other than who I am?

You don't and you might not have to. Perhaps you just don't know who you are yet. How old are you?

[–]bostonbob1987 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

If you are having serious issues, asking for advice on Reddit is a pretty terrible idea.

[–]TheIcelander [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Asking for help on Reddit actually got me to do things I never thought I'd do, like go to therapy or get medication.

[–]thedeadpill[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't think my issues are serious, and believe me when I say I take everything with a lot of salt.

I mean, talk is cheap, unless you're a lawyer or a therapist.