全 33 件のコメント

[–]supercheetah 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like /r/MensLib is what /r/SRSMen is supposed to be, but nothing ever happens in the latter, except for the occasional article link every six months if we're lucky.

[–]LIATG 32ポイント33ポイント  (5子コメント)

As someone who mods both /r/ShitRedditSays and /r/MensLib, and who is a woman, I hope that I can address some of your concerns.

What I'd like to point out is that we are feminists and foremost, and what we're trying to create is not something reactionary to feminism (we're reacting a lot more to the MRM, if anything), but creating a space that focuses on tenets that are already integrated into feminism and bring them into a specific context. This is not intended to take anything away from feminism as a wider movement, or to attempt to say it's a case of equal issues, but to highlight an already existing vector of feminism and build literature and discussion around it.

And its worth noting that women's and feminist voices are welcome and encouraged. I've never felt like my voice wasn't welcome there. And most of the articles we feature are from self-proclaimed feminists. Our demographic survey may help with thee concerns as well

And when we're experiencing a feminism that is so intersectional, men's issues, particularly those that intersect with women's issues or of various minority groups, should certainly be given a space in feminism

Side note, The New Jim Crow has been sitting on my Audible wishlist for a solid several months, do you recommend it?

[–]iarighter[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

To your last paragraph: yes. absolutely, yes. It's not the perfect book on mass incarceration (for a counterpoint I'd read "The Culture of Control," by David Garland, keeping in mind that Garland writes like an academic), but there's a reason it's so highly touted -- Alexander weaves narrative and history and statistics so insightfully. I both enjoyed the book and learned a lot from it! So yes, definitely.

And the rest of your response made me really hopeful, so thank you. I can't wait to participate!

[–]higeo 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

If women's voices aren't discouraged/silenced there, why did a certain female mod over there quit after voicing her well-founded concerns about the sub?

[–]cpcrc -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The New Jim Crow is an interesting read, but it's important to know Alexander is wrong about central key claims in the book, most crucially, her attempt to describe mass incarceration in terms of the drug war relies on an analysis of the federal system, which has less than 10% of the incarcerated population and less than 5% of the population subject to CJS supervision in the US. As criminologists (see Mark Kleiman and John Pfaff) have been trying to explain, the drug war is a relatively minor sideshow to mass incarceration. Drug prisoners may make up half or more of the federal system, as Alexander says, but they're about 15% of the total custodial population, and when we're talking about an expansion of a prison system by entire orders of magnitude, 15% is not really the headline story. Reagan, Nixon, and the Drug War are all bad things and easy targets, but they don't explain mass incarceration in a country where there are a number of states like California or Texas that individually incarcerate more people than the entire federal system. States prohibit drugs, but the drug war as a policy and most of the vigor of its enforcement has been federal, not state.

There are, however, a number of very good books that explore mass incarceration (including some attention to the federal role) in terms of the "major", core changes, rather than the mostly ancillary drug war. Standouts include Elizabeth Hinton's From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime; Marie Gottschalk's The Prison and the Gallows; and Naomi Murakawa's The First Civil Right ( frustratingly written at parts, but a very important argument).

[–]Waitwhatnow 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

My verdict is still out, but they do not discourage women's voices. I do dislike the demonization of feminism, because it's ignorant and frankly wrong. However, I haven't seen a lot of criticism thrown at feminism over there yet. Most of it seems directed toward toxic social values, kyriarchy, patriarchal gender roles, that type of thing.

[–]Hindu_Wardrobe 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was a child support thread awhile back that got pretty hairy, but it was probably brigaded, too.

[–]iarighter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I haven't seen it either, but I'm not sure things will stay that way. And what I'm trying to say is that it's not about discouragement; it's about inclusion. For example, with hiring writers in TV -- there isn't as much 'minority discouragement' anymore, but if TV shows don't try and actively seek out women and people of color, then the whole writing staff ends up white and male. The same might happen with this: if they only recruit men, then the whole thing will become another echo chamber without any real dissenting voices, without the complexity that they seem to be going for. Do you know what I mean?

[–]Waitwhatnow 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh yeah totally. I do think it may end up being a bit of a male echo chamber, because it is encouraging male voices to be the primary ones - which they already are in the majority of dialogues.

[–]EssJayDoubleYew 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

In my experience Men's Lib is the male-focused side of feminism, homing in on concepts like toxic masculinity, helping young boys to develop in emotionally mature ways, and looking at the ways in which patriarchal society is near as bad for men as it is for women in the grand scheme of things.

From what I know of the movement (I've barely hovered around the subreddit) it is literally informed by feminist sociology. Just like there are groups of feminists passionate about campaigning for women of colour, women in other cultures and women of the lgbtqi+ community, there are those passionate about helping men overcome their own obstacles - acknowledgement of male privilege, emotional maturity, overcoming of subconscious misogynistic biases.

As someone who identifies as greygender who is always perceived as male, it's helped me get over my own fear of presenting as more androgynous, helped me feel more comfortable behaving in more stereotypically feminine ways, and made me feel confident about my emotions instead of feeling ashamed by them. It's changed my life and done me a world of good.

Those are my thoughts. They're more in regard of men's liberation as a whole though - I don't have much firsthand experience with the subreddit on this site.

[–]iarighter[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm glad you've had a positive experience. I'm really hopeful for this subreddit, as a whole. And I'd love to learn more about MensLib as a movement.

[–]EntsJarsAndTea 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

where have any of you been in the last year or two? lots of the menslib people (when I first frequented/helped start it up on another acc) are from the fempire, they even asked for mods at one point from the community IIRC. jesus man.

[–]sphericalbeaver 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I remember it first being advertised in SRS/CB related communities, most of the mods should be well known to anyone who's payed any attention to that side of reddit.

[–]youabsolutelymustbej 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

What I'm worried about is that by focusing on MensLib so much, they won't involve female voices, and feminists texts, and Women's problems within society. Basically, erasure.

Did you really just go to the one place on the internet where men are supposed to be working in conjunction with feminism to combat patriarchical problems and say "yes, but what about the women!?!"

Rethink your criticism.

[–]iarighter[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just because it's the "one place on the internet where men are supposed to be working in conjunction with feminism to combat patriarchal problems" doesn't mean it's perfect. Notice how I like what the founder had to say in the article, how I subbed to the subreddit, etc. Why do you have to resort to personal attacks? Are you going to give me a serious critique or not?

[–]Lolor-arros 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not saying I agree with them, but it looks like they're only criticizing one part of your post - the part about erasure.

[–]youabsolutelymustbej 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just because it's the "one place on the internet where men are supposed to be working in conjunction with feminism to combat patriarchal problems" doesn't mean it's perfect.

Ok. I didn't say it was perfect. I said if you're criticizing an explicitly men's space for not including women, you have some stuff to rethink.

Men's Lib is trying to address men's problems which don't get proiritized in comparison to women's issues in mainstream feminism. Why would prioritizing including women make sense?

[–]Bananageddon 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

r/MensLib is currently the best place men have on Reddit to talk about men's issues. The header "Be the Men's Issues Conversation You Want to See in the World" perfectly sums up what I like about it. It's not about following orthodoxies, it's about trying to have a productive conversation.

However, I'm worried that the exposure that the Vox article has given it will turn it into a battleground for people who might be better served by r/changemyview or r/debatefeminism. I hope the mods have a plan to stop that from happening.

[–]MrFrode 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

"The second goes with the first: women are treated much more poorly in society than men..."

Just because society treats women poorly in many instances doesn't mean it doesn't treat men poorly in some instances.

If this can happen why shouldn't men be able to have their voices heard and attempt to resolve instances where they are mistreated?

[–]iarighter[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

If this can happen why shouldn't men be able to have their voices heard and attempt to resolve instances where they are mistreated?

Of course they should be able to have their voices heard; that's not my argument. What I'm saying is that male voices often overshadow female voices. That there's danger in focusing on the men without properly including women in the conversation. After all, this is a human conversation, and we can't understand that humanity without listening to all parts -- especially the parts with the smallest voices.

[–]bold_Innovictus 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, if it's a specific subreddit for men, is it really so bad that men are mostly heard there? If anything, giving men a box for men's issues lets men speak freely without overshadowing women in the primary conversation.

[–]MrFrode 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

But in a forum about things happening to men shouldn't those male voices be heard the most?

If you visit a forum setup to discuss trans-gendered concerns, or African American concerns, or the concerns of farmers wouldn't you expect the focus to be on voices of the people belonging to those groups? Not to the total exclusion of others but definitely giving the most weight to the people belonging to the group.

To put it another way if a man came into a forum designed to discuss the issues women face do you think it would be reasonable for him to suggest that the focus is too much on women and that without properly including men in the conversation the group is in danger of not properly understanding the issues women face?

[–]IndoAmericanKiller 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's a need for /r/MensLib to get men into these discussions and open them to feminist perspectives.

I hate to say it, but if you open with "this is an explicitly feminist space," many Redditors will turn away, because they have had negative experiences with self-proclaimed feminists.

For example, I have an interest in Asian men's issues (similar to, but also separate from Asian women's issues). I've had some great conversations with feminists. But many others have met me with whataboutery, orientalism, and racism. They probably missed the memo on intersectionality.

Regardless, they informed my initial perception of feminism, so if you had told me "this is a feminist space," I would be reticent to join in the discussion. But because /r/menslib presents itself as a space for feminist as well as other perspectives, I'd be happy to join.