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People quoting "hate scriptures on homosexuality?" (self.TrueChristian)

pbros_theredletter が 投稿

I have had the opportunity many times to share the gospel with non believers, one thing that keeps getting thrown in my face is the verse Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

What is said is that if God is love and he is all knowing, then why would he command something so brutal? And how can we still call him a loving God?

I am curious to see what some people might say to this?

And to be clear I have already heard "Well its old testament" they come back with well isn't he the same yesterday today and forever? Then how can he be loving if he demanded murder?

I want to create a bunch of topics on this type of thing on difficult scriptures from the old testament and see what people say because I am trying to get ideas on how to reply!

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[–]Congregationalistitstoearly 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

God is not demanding murder, he is demanding punishment for sin. Murder is killing out of hatred (which is why killing in self defense or as a soldier in war does not break the commandment "Though shalt not murder").

God is all-loving, but people also forget God is righteous and requires justice as well. Sin is breaking God's Law, and therefor there is punishment. Thankfully those of us who have accepted Christ have already had the punishment for our sins carried out on Christ.

[–]pbros_theredletter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point, I think where they get hung up is Jesus said to love, and then they read the Old Testament scripture like that one and they can't understand why he commands to punish by death? Especially when someone tells them Gods love is unconditional when they see scriptures like that being blown up everywhere online!

[–]Presbyterian (PCA)thoumyvision 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Part of the problem is that modern Christianity has overemphasized God's loving nature, and underemphasized his holiness.

Yes, God is loving, gracious and merciful. But he is also just, wrathful and jealous. Overarching all he is holy. Holiness is the only attribute of God which is emphasized in triple: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty". God cannot abide that which is unholy.

[–]pbros_theredletter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point, I think for some of the people I speak with daily would respond to that saying so God demands perfection and if he didn't get it he commands death? I have had a lot of conversations on this and am just trying to sharpen my iron (bible pun) You can probably see from my other convo's on this thread that I keep playing devil's advocate sorry!

[–]Chi Rhogagood 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Each of us will one day stand before God and give an account. If we have to stand on our own merits, each of us will be condemned and cast into hell. But, those who repent and trust in Jesus, who paid the price for our sins, will be credited Christ's righteousness.

The problem with the "God is love" argument is that the person using it defines what "love" means, rather than using God's definition of love. Although God is love, you cannot separate his attribute of love from his other attributes, such as his righteousness and justice. Is it loving for God to not be just?

Here is what love is:

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

"For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:7-8

[–]pbros_theredletter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with everything you said, I try to put myself in the arguer's shoes, so forgive me for playing devils advocate, but I can see someone being completely turned off to hearing anything I would have to say if I stated that "God is just when he commanded the killing of homosexuals" by todays standards. But I do not think there is anything that can be done about that, its just the day we live in I guess...

[–]PentecostalColdactill 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

People see this as brutal and wrong because culture has defined their view of God, and also their view of love. In truth God hates sinners, [Psalm 5:5], and will judge and punish, somewhat brutally [Isaiah 66:15-16]. This doesn't line up with the 'nothing-but-love' view of God, but it shows us facets of who the true God is.

Before engaging in these discussions you need to establish where one gets their morals, their idea of right and wrong. The Christian gets theirs from the bible, believing they were created to serve God and bring Him glory, and so look to him for instructions on fulfilling His purposes. People need to understand we dont just believe the Bible because we 'like' the moral and political standpoints it has, but because to us, God is real! The reason we believe that practising homosexually is a sin is because it is a deviation from the way he planned our relationships to be. Non-beleivers think this is harsh and cruel, because they don't see any reason to follow a God like we do.

It's also ineffective trying to convince sinners not to sin, they are out of communion with God and by that very nature they will never see eye to eye or see reason to stop doing what they feel they should do, or stop having the opinions they would like to have. We need to work on bringing the gospel to people, then it will be much easier to change their opinions on homosexuality.

I think several things changed when Jesus hung on the cross, but God didn't. And God today does not disagree with the actions of God in the old testament, they are one and the same. What you can tell people is yes he does punish and hate the sinner, but all of that punishment and hatred that we deserved was poured out onto Jesus, his only begotten Son, at the cross. He took OUR place, and now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [Romans 8:1]

[–]Roman CatholicCatebot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Psalms 5:5 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

[5] The boastful may not stand before thy eyes; thou hatest all evildoers.

Isaiah 66:15-16 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

[15] “For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire will the Lord execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and those slain by the Lord shall be many.

Romans 8:1 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

Life in the Spirit
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Code | Contact Dev | Usage | Changelog | All texts provided by BibleGateway and Bible Hub.

[–]pbros_theredletter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

"I think several things changed when Jesus hung on the cross, but God didn't. And God today does not disagree with the actions of God in the old testament, they are one and the same. What you can tell people is yes he does punish and hate the sinner, but all of that punishment and hatred that we deserved was poured out onto Jesus, his only begotten Son, at the cross. He took OUR place, and now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [Romans 8:1]"

I love that! I think that is a really good way of explaining it, I have another question for you, what do you say to people who respond by saying "God is love? His love is unconditional? Why then does scriptures like that exist? Etc. To some I have spoken to they respond by saying that if God's love is unconditional then why do I get sent to hell for my sin? Open question for anyone else who thinks they have a good answer!

[–]Roman CatholicCatebot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Romans 8:1 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

Life in the Spirit
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Code | Contact Dev | Usage | Changelog | All texts provided by BibleGateway and Bible Hub.

[–]PentecostalColdactill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll try and answer that question as best I can. I think scriptures like that exist to show the greatness of his love as well as the great wickedness of our sin. The more wicked we see our sin, the greater his love is shown in Jesus standing in our place for it.

Also, like I mentioned, I think our definitions of love are skewed by society. In society, love between two people can just be seen as no more tham chemistry and compatibility, but Jesus felt no chemistry with us when he hung on the cross. He did it out of His love. I would encourage people to look with an open mind to scripture for God's definition of love, before trying to play God and impose their definition of love upon Him. Questions like this also stem out of a misunderstanding of his Holy and Righteous nature, he is perfect and complete opposite in nature to sin. The sin in us cannot dwell with God.