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Can a Christian support war? (self.TrueChristian)

grec_man が 投稿

As the conflict in Syria/Iraq/Yemen etc carries on, I wonder how many Christians are pacifists, and how many think that wars or some wars are justified.

Articles like this: http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/arent-christians-responsible-for-most-wars point towards a middle-ground, such as just war theory. But then other groups are complete pacifists. Check out this from the Bruderhof: http://www.bruderhof.com/en/voices-blog/2016/august/start-following-jesus

In November a film called Hacksaw Ridge will be released, covering the life of Desmond Doss. Pretty interesting story.

What do you think?

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[–]ChristianGuitarWizard90 23ポイント24ポイント  (12子コメント)

In Ecclesiastes chapter 3, it says to everything there is a season. A time to heal, and a time to kill. A time for war, and a time for peace. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather them.

So it seems that war is biblically justified under the right circumstances. Granted, I am fairly new to actually studying scripture, so perhaps someone here will say I've interpreted it wrongly.

[–]Christiantacos41 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I appreciate your humility.

[–]Non-denominationalXSageXL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh wow thanks for that answer! It really helps me clear up some questions.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

What type of war is that referencing? The war when Jesus comes and defeats the devil? Spiritual warfare? Etc.

[–]ChristianGuitarWizard90 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's not referring to a specific war. It's just basically saying there's times when such things may be necessary.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

So technically, the only time that war is allowed, and supported, is when God allows it?

[–]ChristianGuitarWizard90 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's not what it says, though.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It also doesn't say that the time for war is now.

[–]ChristianGuitarWizard90 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't get what you're trying to say.

[–]Glaspap 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, but im not sure ecclesiastes is supposed to be seen as normative in most places. It is more reflective poetry on certain viewpoints. But i too am fairly new to interpreting scripture :)

[–]ChristianBaldDucky 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I agree. It's definitely not sermon on the mount type teaching, so I'm not sure if "and there's a time to kill" is necessarily applicable, but then again maybe it is. Really just depends on whether it was used as an example or not.

[–]Baptistg_baptist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is poetry really the intention of the author or more of a philosophical diatribe on the roots of wisdom and wise living in general? (Not that I think we ought to reject things like Proverbs as uninspired or unimportant in this regard either, despite being poetic). At any rate, the authors specific argument can, I think, be made based on a multitude of passages in the Old Testament.

[–]Non-DenominationalHaveMercyMan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lets not forget Ecclesiastes is a very poetic kind of piece by King Solomon (The wisest man of his time and possibly of all time) and shouldn't be taken super literally but it still has Biblical credibility. For instance take the first chapter of Ecclesiastes into perspective.

Ecclesiastes 1:2: “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.”

Obviously this isn't in a literal sense and Solomon was speaking more secularly and about a life without God in the first chapter since this is what he had more or less experienced when he was in sin. But Chapter 3 is a lot more liberal, not saying you're wrong just should be put into consideration.

[–]Reformedgiblien 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

God himself supported the war with the Canaanite in Joshua. Pretty sure if our motives are right and the cause is good, we can absolutely support war.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

So basically if God says so?

When was the last time God commanded a war?

[–]RomoSexua1 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

No, he's saying that God set a precedent. Under certain circumstances war is okay.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Was there any war in the OT that God did not command?

[–]RomoSexua1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, but did I say that there was? You can stop setting up that straw man.

[–]Universal ReconciliationistTwistedDrum5 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No strawman. Just pointing out a fact, and was unsure.

[–]ChristianBaldDucky 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have a definite opinion on this, but I don't think that those advocating for pacifism should be downvoted. That's not why the button is there.

[–]Denominationless ConvertCroesgadwr 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Many people reckon that Jesus was pacifist, because he told his followers not to draw the sword in his defence, love our enemies and Christ never acted in violence against someone while he walked the earth.

However, the son is at one with the father. As you're all aware, the father supported wars and that means that Christ supported them too.

Given the right casus belli, I think a Christian can fight a war and still be at peace. There are times where not fighting would do more harm than fighting, imagine if we left the Nazis to their own devices.

If a Christian refuses to fight then I don't see any reason to judge him because there are many good reasons to refuse to fight a war. No need for accusations of cowardice when someone has moral concerns.

I personally believe that when we fight to defend those who cannot defend themselves, God embraces us.

[–]Redeemedmdegroat 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

To comment on the "Jesus was a pacifist" thing...

  • Jesus used premeditated physical violence to clear out the temple. (Jn 2:15)
  • Jesus asks for an inventory of swords among the disciples. (Lk 22:38)
  • Jesus says "Go buy a sword." (Lk 22:36)

[–]ChristianDJSpook 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So true, you have to not even read the Bible to make the pacifist conclusion. When he says to love your enemies and turn the other cheek He was informing their character, not civil authorities. Clearly there's a difference between abstaining from violence where it helps another man and demonstrates love and then allowing evil to happen that will hurt people and cause evil.

[–]Denswen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

My belief is that it often comes down to a matter of conscience. One brother can go to war and participate and never violate his conscience. Another brother can participate in a non-compete support role (finance, Chaplin, supply, etc.) and never violate his conscience, but if he were in combat he would violate his conscience. Still another brother would violate his conscience merely by being indirectly involved in a war.

Romans 14 gives us some guidance here. Also 1 Corinthians 8.

It's up to each of us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and to know that what our brothers and sisters in Christ do, they do for the Lord. As such, we must be aware of the things which will cause a separation between us and God (I. E., sin).

We cannot judge one another's actions about such things, since they are the masters servant just like we are. Nor should we belittle or believe the other who believes differently is beneath us.

We should also take steps to not cause our brother or sister to stumble, in whatever capacity that means for that individual.

[–]Calvary Chapelkadda1212 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, in defense. Especially when your a politician and have to make decisions to defend the country.

Not an aggressive war though.

Also, even in war the rule "love your enemy" is valid - so many of the cruel things that happen in war are not acceptable (rape, slaughtering civilians...)

[–]Redeemedmdegroat 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is a war coming in the future that all Christians should support. Jesus is the General and hero of the battle and I'd like to be on His side. At a minimum we should support that single war. Ergo, yes, Christians can support war.

[–]Roman CatholicWeeabo_vanquisher 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Absolutely, as long as it is to defend. War for conquest is mortally sinful. Dante consigned the violent conqueror "heroes" of the past like Atilla and Alexander the Great to the "violence" circle of hell.

[–]Atheistgonnacrushit 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well didn't God command israelites to basically conquer Canaan?

[–]Look! A Leaf!AlexTehBrown 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

basically conquer

10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. 11 And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. 12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. 16 But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction,[a] the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded, 18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God.

  • Deut. 20 (ESV)

[–]Follower of Jesus Christ the Son of Godpinkunicorn53 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't believe so. I don't believe humans are given the authority to pronounce judgement on the living, which is what you are pretty much doing when you take someones life, you are also taking away their chance to believe in Jesus and be saved and you are sealing their judgement.

In the Old Testament, there were entire cities and nations where none of those people were going to believe in Jesus and they were completely immersed in a sinful lifestyle, all of the people. When those cities were destroyed by king David or Saul, they were killing those people by God's command, meaning God was calling down judgement upon those people and using the Israelite's to carry out that judgement.

Therefore, unless you have a reason to believe the military you are supporting, their commanders or leaders, are being guided by the hand of God, then we shouldn't support the needless slaughter of innocent lives, which is what those conflicts entail, thousands and thousands of civilians, children and woman being shot from the skies by unmanned drones like in the freakin terminator movies.

[–]Redeemedmdegroat -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

All kings are being guided by the hand of God.

[–]lispninja 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Correction. They are given their position of power, but that doesn't mean they are following the will of God. See the line of Kings of Israel and Judah.

[–]Redeemedmdegroat 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

They might not be following the will of God willing, but they are following it. Romans 13:1-2 and Daniel 2 for example.

I said they are "being guided by the hand of God." That is true of everyone who has ever lived.

[–]lispninja 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

They might not be following the will of God willing, but they are following it.

Now let's not confuse what goes on in this world with the will of God. The will of God is that all should worship the Him and follow His commands. He makes everything beautiful despite our sin, not because of it.

Your scripture verses doesn't back up your statements. Romans 13:1-2 says the same thing I said above that God is the one who establishes the rulers and authorities. That doesn't say anything about God guiding them. There is a clear distinction.

Daniel 2 is a specific instance of God guiding Nebuchadnezzar. That doesn't necessarily apply universally.

There a verse in Hosea 8:4 which also makes things somewhat not so straightforward: "They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval." Now I'm not implying God's not in control and that He doesn't appoint who He wants. But it does seem to be an interesting counterpoint to Romans 13:1-2.

And 1 Samuel 16:14 says: "Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul." This sounds like God has removed his guidance from Saul. Did he guide Saul at one point? Yes, but it seems like God just as easily removes his guidance.

I said they are "being guided by the hand of God." That is true of everyone who has ever lived.

I think your statement is a tautology. By virtue of existence you could say God has "guided" everyone because He created everything and that person as well. It doesn't lend anything to the conversation. Yes, God's in control, but let's not blindly assume our rulers are doing God's will if they're leading us into a war.

[–]Redeemedmdegroat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we might be on parallel tracks and it seems the core might be in regard to what we each mean by "guided."

I wasn't using guided to mean "righteously seeking and following after God." I mean it in a more general sense that there is no authority given on earth that doesn't come from God at his will.

[–]EvangelicalnewBreed 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and his role in some really interesting stuff in WWII.

[–]Roman CatholicPaedragGaidin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe so, but only under very, very rare circumstances.

[–]LCMSLiftBodyUpThenDown 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is very important that we do not love violence. War is a tragedy, yet often one that brings about good because there are chaos-inspired people in the world, and utter pacifism would result in enormous levels of terror. But I also think current world affairs are perhaps too prone to faction.

tl;dr Extreme levels of pacifism or patriotism are not good. There is a middle-ground which the Bible lays out for us*

The verses I often consider...

Peace should be sought

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Blessed are the peacemakers

God hates those who love violence

pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Violence and war are not inherently sinful

And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”

a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

[–]ChristianTheEdgyDude 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Like others have said, if it's justified.

I would fight and kill in a war if it was defensive. I'm not going to let enemies into my country and potentially kill civilians, rape and pillage.

[–]ChristianCytorath 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Wolverines!

[–]ChristianTheEdgyDude 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

What?

[–]Roman CatholicPaedragGaidin 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

[Mutters about kids these days]

[–]Non-Denominationallju1977 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

There was even a remake.

[–]Roman CatholicPaedragGaidin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ugggggh...has any remake ever been good?

[–]CalvinElliot 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a reference to Red Dawn. The protagonists are a band of rebels calling themselves "Wolverines" after their school mascot when America is invaded by the Russians (and North Koreans and possibly Chinese in the remake).

[–]Southern BaptistDerelictReclaimed 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm a pacifist.

[–]ChristiandaReallMVP 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes.

[–]Episcopal ChurchEvanYork 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are there hypothetical wars that we should support? Sure. However, I don't think there's much of a practical difference between believing in just war theory and being anti-war in this day and age. Can anyone name a just war any of the major works powers have been involved in post-WWII? Bottom line, we're a powerful country and we go to war to maintain our power, not because we think they represent a legitimate security threat.

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite -1ポイント0ポイント  (29子コメント)

The commandment says do not kill. So no, war is not a Christian thing.

EDIT: Apparently, I was wrong my whole life. Turns out you can kill a man if it's justified.

[–]Lutheran (LCMS)Philip_Schwartzerdt 1ポイント2ポイント  (28子コメント)

The commandment says "Do not murder"...

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite 2ポイント3ポイント  (24子コメント)

Oh. Well I always read it in Russian and there it is the same word. But what is the difference anyway?

[–]Reformed Baptistchewblacca681 5ポイント6ポイント  (19子コメント)

But what is the difference anyway?

We know from the Bible that God killed or commanded the killing of many people. Did He break or command the breaking of his own Law?

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. The law was for men, not him. He can do whatever he likes. Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his own son, after all.

[–]Reformed Baptistchewblacca681 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, and in there is the difference between killing (in general) and murder. The Law prohibits unjust killing, murder. When God killed or commanded killing, it was always just. His law was not inconsistent or hypocritical as it would be if it condemned all killing.

[–]Lutheran (LCMS)Philip_Schwartzerdt 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Murder is only illegal killing. It does not include, for example, legal executions or killing in self-defense.

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. I guess I was wrong.

[–]US_Hiker 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The original text is giving more of a legal term, like how 1st degree murder encompasses only a portion of killings in English (others being manslaughter, killing in self-defense, etcetera).

Give this a read, it does a good job talking about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the link.

Although I have strong doubts taking human life can be viewed as justifiable after the New Testament with its rhetoric of love and turning the other cheek.

I suspect the "old" meaning was too convenient for the Church as it did not put it in conflict with Christian rulers.

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

KJV is not so convenient as I can see.

[–]Lutheran (LCMS)Philip_Schwartzerdt 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not a matter of more or less convenient; a matter of being less accurate for conveying the original Hebrew sense.

[–]Eastern OrthodoxPantsuElite 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Turns out you can kill someone. But it feels super weird, especially after years of believing otherwise.

[–]Roman Catholicluke-jr 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, under certain conditions. Typically the justified party is on the defensive end.

[–]Denominationless ConvertCroesgadwr 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Typically the justified party is on the defensive end.

No, typically the justified party is the one with a just cause for war.

[–]Christianalbertjrich -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

I will support a war that executes wrath on the wicked. Although it is tough, as the wicked seem to rule nearly everywhere.

2 Timothy 2:3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

Christians are called to war against the kingdom of darkness. This type of war is completely correct to support.