全 135 件のコメント

[–]ifelsedowhile [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

yes, because the differential in physical attraction must be compensated by men offering resources. women have a superior power of physical attraction towards men than viceversa.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is the correct answer, here. Additionally, the biological reason is because men need women's reproductive abilities in order to reproduce. He literally trades his resources for her body.

[–]mistixsPink Pill Woman [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You make a really good point.

In fact that's a major issue for dating today. Many female college graduates struggle to find mates because they don't want a guy who has less education than them.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hypergamy at play. They also complain they can't find dates in college because the super hot guys take advantage of their options.

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

KT Tatara made exactly this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oyrG3PcgLk

Women like guys that are better than them...

this fits in with SCIENCE!

(Men value physical attractiveness and health, women value those things as well as social status, ambition, and financial success Feingold, 1990. "Gender Differences in Effects of Physical Attractiveness on Romantic Attraction - A Comparison across 5 research Paradigms." Feingold, 1992a. "Gender Differences in Mate Selection Preferences - A Test of the Parental Investment Model" Shackelford, Schmitt & Buss, 2005 -Universal dimensions of human mate preferences.)

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So men only expect a woman to be healthy, women expect a man to be a superman and a bill gates. lol.. women got it easy.

[–]Truecelacct [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You can control how successful you are. You can't control your physical attributes or your age.

[–]Blaat1985 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

They want to date a superior man yet have an equal relationship. Having the cake and eating it too.

[–]Truecelacct [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

By this theory they would still be equal... He would have more resources but she would be more attractive and have the sex and baby making abilities.

[–]SipsSparklingWaterBlue Berry Flavoured [スコア非表示]  (34子コメント)

Isn't everyone?

[–]Princeso_BubblegumFem Pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Naw, my philosophy in life is aim low, that way you are surprised when you exceed your expectations.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (30子コメント)

My priorities in women:

1) Looks; Symmetry, fairness, facial shape: Fitness and strength is hardly a priority, for as long as they're not disorderly fat.

2) Personality: I don't care if she knows how a screwdriver works or can change the tires on her own car, for as long as she's pleasant.

3) Abilities: I don't care about her education, for as long as she's pleasant and good looking enough, and at the very least is capable of holding a job, and capable of learning.

...interests are of value, obviously, but our interests and favorite TV shows aren't really attractive attributes, but about compability.

Humour? Not important. For as long as she doesn't have some absurd laugh and she appreciates higher level humour than dick and fart jokes.

Politics..? For as long as she isn't stupid, it's fine.

Social? Extrovert? Confident? Absolutely doesn't matter, for as long as she doesn't scare people away, and isn't miserable with herself.

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

you can buy what you're looking for, you know. if the reality of things as you see it is hell, just... do what would fix that for you.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

I can buy a better world? How much does that cost?

I managed to get my ex girl friend, who is also my friend with benefits, pregnant this summer -- and she's considering keeping the child.

...suuuuure, I could pay for what I want, but I doubt I'd be able to live with myself.

She REALLY wants the baby.

But we already have three kids, so... she'll lock me down pretty damn hard, and she'll make dating even worse.

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

I can buy a better world? How much does that cost?

you can buy a robot, or a simulation, or both. there are no shortage of games that would satisfy this too.

I managed to get my ex girl friend, who is also my friend with benefits, pregnant this summer -- and she's considering keeping the child. ...suuuuure, I could pay for what I want, but I doubt I'd be able to live with myself.

this took a really weird turn. that's not remotely what i was talking about.

She REALLY wants the baby. But we already have three kids, so... she'll lock me down pretty damn hard, and she'll make dating even worse.

you should be paying for (better?) contraceptives like, yesterday, if this isn't what you wanted. vasectomies are great. i mean, come on. you can't even call it a mistake at this point.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

She was supposed to be on the pill. ...Some women are like that.

But whatever. If the child is a girl, it'll be the first in generations, and my mother will be babysitting 360 days per year.

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

She was supposed to be on the pill. ...Some women are like that.

hey, you can only control yourself and not others, right? this is on you too.

But whatever. If the child is a girl, it'll be the first in generations, and my mother will be babysitting 360 days per year.

poor child. this is the stuff the real decline is made of; how irresponsible.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

You can only trust yourself and not others, right? Yes. I should not have trusted her. ...this kind of reminds me of the victim blaming I've been accused of in another thread.

My mother has never held a girl baby before, and also wanted a girl grandchild. I wasn't being literal.

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

You can only trust yourself and not others, right? Yes. I should not have trusted her.

no, you should have been using more than one method of contraception if you were trying to be careful. you both have children together already; you know how this works, you know how to avoid it. grow up.

[–]future_space_boobs [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Pregnancy is stupid easy to prevent. I'm amazed that people are still dumb enough to forego protection in this day and age. If I was a dude and someone I was casually sleeping with told me not to worry about it i'd wrap it up twice (well, so to speak.)

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Well. She lied. She wasn't on the pill. So, it was a trust problem, not a problem with contraception.

[–]sofcknwrong [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Holy shit. And you're on the Manosphere pondering how men want meek, pretty women; while your ex is busy dealing with your 4 CHILDREN?? I thought men were the smart responsible ones.

I can see why it wouldn't bother you if a woman can't hold her own in highbrow conversation or be able to change a tyre or deal with finance issues etc. Your babymomma doesn't have time for any of that stuff.

Put a fucking knot in your dick or before you know it, you'll have 8 kids with 3 moms. Get off the Internet and sort yourself out. Christ, I hope for your sake you're a troll trying to humblebrag about your "prowess".

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

you can buy a robot,

Girlfriend robots don't exist yet

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

so get a sex bot and a simulated girlfriend. or call a hotline. no need to waste your time on real women if all you want is to design one for yourself.

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

so get a sex bot a simulated girlfriend

Are you from the future?

The technology currently available leaves a lot to be desired

[–]Circlesquare1Purple Pill Woman [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Do you really sit down and measure how symmetric a woman's face is?

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

What the do you think perceieved beauty is based on? Symmetry, skin condition and their eyes, facial features individuals have compared to what you have observed to be your species' average...

That's beauty. That is what we consider beautiful.

[–]Circlesquare1Purple Pill Woman [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

But do you really sit there and measure how symmetric a face is?? Like I understand being turned off by someone who has a droopy face or something but do you really care if one eyebrow is a little different or one side has a dimple and the other doesn't?

[–]Atlas_B_ShrugginBitch, I'm in the 215 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Our brains do that for us. Symmetry and ratios is what we perceive of as beauty. We don't have to "measure" , we're calibrated to perceive it

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Short answer: No.

Long answer: You really don't want to know, so: It's not necessary for a man to consciously measure or evaluate a face, so we don't do it. We're either already attracted, or not.

[–]Changes4175 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Learn more about biology and the physiological process of attraction as experienced by the human animal.

[–]Wumpus1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Youre selling yourself short dude. Why even hang out with someone who needs to be helped so much and can't even make you laugh when you are constantly helping them?

Whatever happened to "be the prize"? Your list is basically describing an empathetic hole that makes babies.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I really like the line about personality being knowing how a screwdriver works. LOL.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

It's just a difference between man and woman.

Man: How does this work? -- Woman looks at him in disgust, and leaves.


Woman: How does this work? -- Man: *hard-on intensifies*

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I honestly did not get what you were trying to say. But personality is NOT about understanding how a screwdriver works. You should get hold of a dictionary.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In context, I was saying that it doesn't matter if she's not the brightest of lightbulbs, if she's charming. Personality > Intelligence.

[–]Atlas_B_ShrugginBitch, I'm in the 215 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're looking for girls that are superior to you? Lol liar. I've seen your little hello kitties

[–]sen--senfirst of her name, non-red queen of the mythical slut-beasts [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

They're looking for a man that is stronger than themselves

not really necessary, but happens to be the default. not a goal, but not bad to have around.

smarter

people are smart at different things so this is... a little too simply put. but, sure, i'll be lenient and say a guy that knows different things better than i do is interesting.

more confident than themselves

could go both ways.

funnier

maybe? i really only care if he's funny to me and the people we choose to surround ourselves with. i don't care if he's funnier than me or not.

understanding

sure. i also want understanding co-workers and family members though; nothing novel here.

more interesting and knowledgeable

see: smarter.

better trained, better educated and with a better job

see: smarter. also, around the same level or even a little below me on this is alright; definitely not the biggest factor when it comes to guys.

a man who knows some politics -- preferably more than the girl herself

couldn't care less.

a man whom can impress their friends with his wit and charm?

well, we have the same friends. see: funnier.

i don't think women actively look for someone superior to them, but naturally, like men too, they'll look for the best partners they can get (which varies based on taste and other things).

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Do you agree that women have higher standards for mens' abilities, than men have for womens'?

Who rejects the other side the most?

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (23子コメント)

No. For me what works is "at least as (funny, strong, educated, ...) as me" in the domains that I find relevant.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

While for men, the standards are lower. And we settle for lower. Because women have higher standards.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

You have high standards... for yourself. You can't imagine doing the menial tasks at home, so you settle for someone who will be forced to do the housework while you can leave the house and go to work and get paid for that.

And for the record, i don't have high standards. I am just expecting to share my life with someone who can relate to me because we have similar background, experiences, common understanding of what we want to do with out lives, etc... I am not expecting anyone of us to be more X than the other.

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Who's rejecting..? If a girl asks a guy out, chances are he's saying yes. If a boy asks a girl out, chances are she's saying no.

Female standards for males > Male standards for females

Quality of the man in a relationship > Quality of a woman in a relationship

...because the women have higher standards. As a result, low quality men are unmatched, while low quality women are matched... and then there's crazy cat ladies spread across the line.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

For the record, I have asked guys out and some have said no.

As to the rest, it is normal that a person gets involved with someone that person finds attractive. When I say attractive, I am not talking of a laundry list of features that should be matched, I am talking of being instinctively attracted to someone, like in your heart and in your guts.

When you talk about those low quality guys that are left unmatched, are you suggesting that women should get involved with guys they aren't attracted to and indulge into pity sex? Is that what you are saying? I don't see why I should force myself to have sex or fall for those men.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

80% of men should be castrated. It would solve the SMP imbalance.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Not a good idea. Legalize prostitution or provide sex assistance for people who cannot get laid the same way there are professionally trained assistants for disabled people.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Still it would be preferable if every guy who doesn't have the potential to be alpha was castrated, and same went for girls who are ugly or fat or just average-looking. Prevent them from having babies by getting their tubes tied.

Prostitution would be a nice idea, legalized prostitution, but it would have to be made legal for teenager boys to fuck prostitutes aswell.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Still it would be preferable if every guy who doesn't have the potential to be alpha was castrated, and same went for girls who are ugly or fat or just average-looking. Prevent them from having babies by getting their tubes tied.

That would be unethical. There are already stories of people being sterilized against their will. This ended up in massive lawsuits in some countries. Not workable.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

it worked fine in Nazi Germany. We just need a proper govt. to get it happen. We might achieve that dream if trump is elected.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And the vast majority of women don't ask men out, leading us to understand the reality that most men are not sexually attractive to most women.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Whoah. That's a lot of assumptions there. /u/Red-Frostraven didn't even bring up housework or careers.

That being said, in practice I think couples where the woman earns more than the man tend not to work out. Men are typically happy to share some of their earnings with their partner, while women tend to feel resentment when a man spends "her" money. I think it goes back to our biology. Men have evolved to provide resources for women in exchange for their reproductive abilities. Not the other way around. It's hard to deprogram our instincts.

[–]DrunkGirl69chill pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's weird though men who are in marriages where the woman makes the money report the best sex lives.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I am in a 10+ year LTR. We both have a career in a similar line of work and regardless of our individual earnings, we contribute equally to the lifestyle we have chosen for ourselves.

We both have been in situations where one was without a job for some months, each time each one of us was happy to provide for the other.

Maybe it does not work for some people but we are reasonable people and we make it work.

It is not because there are some outdated lifestyles out there, that one has to conform to one of them. That's too easy to blame it on biology. We are human beings, not animals, we can make decisions and choose how we want to lead ours lives.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

We both have been in situations where one was without a job for some months, each time each one of us was happy to provide for the other.

Because you knew there was a strong possibility of future benefit. That's one of the corollaries of Briffault's law.

We are human beings, not animals

Human beings are animals, silly.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

FFS, what future benefits are you talking about? His money is his money and mine is mine and I am free to use mine as I want and that includes supporting the both of us through the bad times. For the record, there is something called love that helps act in a selfless way towards each other. Obviously you've never experienced this feeling, otherwise you would not approach a relationship like some cost-benefit analysis.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Ah yes, that feeling that usually causes beta men to give all there money to a woman. I have heard of this insanity before.

[–]Sandralees [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yeah that's right, you heard about it. Maybe you should let the experts who know that feeling first hand talk about it.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's a biological drive intended to make us procreate and raise children. I think even BPs recognize that love can make people do some crazy and illogical things. We can certainly make more rational decisions by stepping back or consulting a 3rd party sometimes. On MGTOW forums I've seen plenty of divorced men who can tell you all about the decisions they made for love and how they'd do things differently if they could do it again.

[–]yyyyyiiiieee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I dont know about women in general. But not me. I'd actually much prefer a guy whose on the same level as me, If not, lesser is fine

[–]HigHog [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think it's more common to date someone who is better than you at someone things, and worse than you at others.

For example, my husband:

stronger

Now that he has a physically active job he is, but I used to have a stronger lower body than him. Really not that important.

smarter

I'd say we're probably on par, with different interests. He's better at spatial stuff, I'm better at social stuff.

more confident

I'm definitely more confident.

funnier

He's funnier (though I like to set him up).

understanding

Uh, don't know. He's definitely more patient than I am?

more interesting and knowledgable,

We're knowledgeable about different things.

better trained

Trained at what?

better educated

Definitely me.

with a better job

Again me.

knows some politics

Probably a tie.

a man whom can impress their friends with his wit and charm

He's witty but not charming, and a bit shy at first. Everyone thinks he's really nice though.

[–]648262Red Pill [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You bring out the most important part of this whole discussion. Better at what. and then what constitutes better? You say you have a better job, but does your guy agree? Would he enjoy your job more than his own?

Maybe he would, but the point is that a lot of these things are subjective as well.

[–]HigHog [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Good point. I may consider my job better because it features the things I look for in a job. My job has greater flexibility in working hours, a shorter commute, is viewed as more prestigious by society, has more room for advancement and greater pay, makes more of a difference in the world, and I enjoy my actual work far more than my husband does. He would agree that my job is "better", but that still doesn't mean he wants to do it.

Likewise, whether or not you consider someone "better" than you is subjective. If I want a partner who's funny and kind but don't care about athletic prowess, the fact that a date is skilled in MMA may not impress me at all. To someone who does prioritise fitness, that would make them a better partner.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I tend to look for people who're my equals or who are charismatic, tbh.

That said, I don't tend to think someone is better than me just because they're currently earning more or whatever. Once, when I was making 60k a year I was dating a guy who made over a million dollars a year. We were equals -- charisma, presence, physically attractive etc -- he just made more money.

I don't think I'm 'better' than my current SO because I make more, either. I think the metrics you're using here are a bit screwy -- this is not intuitive (and is, in fact, kind of offputting!) to people who don't have RP personalities.

[–]impossibleworldsDiabolical Ice Queen [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Men want a pretty girl, and while they prefer that the girl has some abilties, charm and empathy goes a long way to compensate for a lack of wit or knowledge.

Women are very similar, except I'd say we prioritize personality/abilities/success a bit more than just looks, while men do the reverse.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Women priortiize personality abilitie and success a little bit more, and only when it comes to long-term strategy.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (46子コメント)

Disagree that girls are only interested in men who are "superior" than them. Plenty of us (myself included) are perfectly happy with men who "challenge" us as in are "on our level" as in superior in some ways, inferior in others, and basically overall our equal when it all evens out.

[–]betterdeadthanbetaMale supremacy is the only truth [スコア非表示]  (30子コメント)

What is with the whole "man who can challenge me" thing, though?

Aside from a few BP guys trying to prove they can "handle her at her worst" because they think it makes them masculine. I have never seen a guy pursuing chicks expressly hoping to be challenged in some way.

Dudes ive seen tend to want chicks who will NOT challenge them - who will in fact, be nice and not crazy and give frequent pussy - so they can have a smooth easy sex/domestic life that doesnt interfere with lifes other challenges. Like making money or pursuing a career.

Its only women who have this urge to be challenged as if romance should be like some videogame set to hard. And yet, TRP is the one accused of making relationships adversarial.

Is it because men, and dick, is just so easy to get that you need a refreshing change of pace - a dude playing hard to get? Or that has deep emotional issues or a tortured past or drug addiction or other forms of "challengingness".

TLDR: I dont get you broads.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Disagree. I've met plenty of men who want to be 'challenged' by their partner. Most people who date me want to feel 'challenged'.

My SO has said to me, pretty much exactly what u/sublimemongrel said below. He wants his equal, not a girl who will just give him everything like a doormat.

There are men who tend to want to be part of a 'power couple'.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

There are men who tend to want to be part of a 'power couple'.

I'll pass, thanks. The very LAST thing I want from a wife is a "challenge". I get plenty of challenge from daily life, I'm looking for someone to come home to and relax FROM being challenged all day.

Marrying a "challenge" literally sounds like hell on earth to me.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

FWIW, I don't necessarily think this is the standard. But I think that brilliant and challenging people tend to wind up with other brilliant and challenging people. Does this make sense?

I don't necessarily think of myself as being 'suitable' as a partner for the average man. As many of my male friends used to say in college, "Dating you is aspirational, most of us couldn't hack it." I don't say this to sound up myself, but I'm aware that in some ways I'm very difficult. If you fail to challenge me, I'll dump you. If you can't respond to me challenging you, I'll dump you.

Market fragmentation is generally at play here. There are niches. I'm a challenge -- I'm also very low maintenance and low stress (I'm not the girl who freaks out because you went out for drinks, or the girl who gets mad at you because you're a bit cluttered or whatever -- this stuff is alien to me), but I'm also kind of...hard.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

At least you are aware of your particular "quirks" and are honest about them. That's more than can be said for many people.

But I think that brilliant and challenging people tend to wind up with other brilliant and challenging people. Does this make sense?

Sure to an extent. But to be honest it isn't about brilliance or challenge, its about what I want from my home life. I'm challenged at work, by friends, by strangers sometimes. I want and need someplace I can go to NOT be challenged so I can recharge and prepare for tomorrow's challenges yet to come. If my wife was just "another" challenge on my list of daily tasks, I wouldn't derive much enjoyment from our time together. I generally look forward to our evenings BECAUSE I know it'll mostly be nice downtime. My wife is part of my place of rest and rejuvenation, NOT part of what requires me to NEED the rest.

I just can't help seeing a "challenging" wife as anything short of frustrating and tiring, and one more annoyance to deal with daily.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I think there's a disconnect here in what people perceive as ''challenging''. This is not what either u/sublimemongrel or I mean -- ie someone who makes your life more stressful or who isn't (can't be) part of a place of relaxation. I don't want that kind of partner, either.

This is more about the ability to stand up and say, "yo, I disagree with you!" And the fact that I prefer shared leadership in a relationship. I wouldn't date someone a million times more dominant than me, either. I prefer people who are on my level.

The challenge is just that I'm not solely in charge. Idk if you've ever had someone be totally and completely obsessed with you -- but if you have, I think you'd get this. There's no way that you want to date those people b/c the power imbalance would just be way too intense.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

This is more about the ability to stand up and say, "yo, I disagree with you!"

I have no issues with my wife disagreeing with me, and actually prefer she lets me know. However, I will say that there are right ways to do so, and wrong ways to do so. "Yo, I disagree with you!" isn't the wrong way, but I'll admit it would get my defenses up at least a little.

So in your mind "challenging" is more like mentally stimulating, similar energy level, etc? To me that isn't a challenge, its level setting. When I see the word "challenge" I'm thinking competition. Its a situation where I am going to try and win, and I have no desire to compete with my wife.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yes. Level-setting. I think that's a better way of putting it! I don't want to 'win' -- nor do I want my partner to 'win'. Relationships are not a competition.

Mentally stimulating, similar energy level etc is definitely part of what I mean by this!

I do think the issue here is the language. There's a disconnect with what people mean by someone who is a ''challenge''. And I think this is because men rarely have ''orbiters" perhaps?

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And I think this is because men rarely have ''orbiters" perhaps?

The only men that have orbiters are Chad and his cousins. Most men have no clue what that experience is like and never will.

I don't want to 'win' -- nor do I want my partner to 'win'. Relationships are not a competition.

Something you and I completely agree on! I think perhaps you and I simply go about ensuring that different ways.

[–]PaeddaPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I've read this whole thread and still don't know what you all mean by “challenging”. And I'm not sure you and /u/sublimemongrel mean the same thing. Because she says it's “being on the same level”, while you seem to think of an action to which the partner has to respond in some way.

Also, do you think you being difficult to date as a bad thing or a good thing?

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No, I think it's being on the same level as well. Which sometimes manifests as actions which you have to respond to, but often doesn't.

It's a difficult concept to communicate, tbh, so I'm not surprised that people find this confusing.

I think being 'difficult' to date is always a bad thing. In my mind, being 'challenging' and being difficult are very different.

[–]PaeddaPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Well, in my mind (after thinking about it), "challenging" you would be a situation like this: When I call out something about you that I don't like, for example the way you treat/communicate with a certain common friend; I might talk to you about it, like “Have you thought about listening more to him? You are always talking much more than hearing what he has to say.” And you might try to implement that and thus better yourself.

Whereas the guy that many describe as a “doormat” (I don’t like this term) will not only accept that behavior, but even start doing it that way themselves.

Do you mean something like this?

[–]betterdeadthanbetaMale supremacy is the only truth [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Off with their heads too, tbqh

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

I have never seen a guy pursuing chicks expressly hoping to be challenged in some way.

It's not about you, or him, or "guys." I don't pretend to know what a man wants in this example. What I want is a man who challenges me. My equal. Isn't ready to hand the keys over and be my doormat. "Challenged" doesn't mean contrarian/disagreeable/constantly literally challenging. It means a guy on my level. Not an "easy" man who will give me the keys to his castle for free.

I can go get men like that any day of the week. I don't want those men. I want a man who is willing to show me he cares enough about himself, he values himself, he's confident enough, etc., to not let people walk all over him (including me, because naturally, that's my nature). It's not "adversarial" in that we are literal adversaries (trust me, I have literal adversaries every single day), it's a man who makes me want to be a better person/partner/lover/wife, etc. My level, my equal.

Look I get it's not a simple concept. I won't pretend that it is. But a man who is confident/knows his self worth the way I know mine isn't going to be satisfied just pleasing me. He also cares about himself. I need a man who cares about me enough to make me happy but also cares about himself which makes ME want to work hard to make him happy.

[–]betterdeadthanbetaMale supremacy is the only truth [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

It is at times like these I wonder why I even bother inquiring into female "psychology" (if that's even the right term for your peculiar set of animalistic impulses). Your minds are so alien and wrought with unneeded drama-generating complexities and vestigial instincts that the entire exercise seems more trouble than it's worth.

The more I know about women, the less I like you.

[–]hauswyfetechno [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

ooooh boy we got an edgelord here fellas

[–]betterdeadthanbetaMale supremacy is the only truth [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Edgelord is the new "troll". What an overused and meaningless meme.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You should marvel at our superior complex brains and accept your fate.

But seriously, what about that is particularly "unneeded drama-generating" to you? I mean honestly, I like a man on my level, what's so bad about that?

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Yep, this exactly. No one wants to date someone who's 'easy'.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

LOL I dunno. I much prefer dating a woman that makes it 'easy' than one that makes it a 'challenge' hands down.

But, I've known a couple that might fit the description of "power couple" and I could possibly see that the "challenge" works for them. Its just not what I want a mate for. I'm looking for the safe haven kind of home life, not the "woman that makes me a better man" kind. Its my job to make myself a better man. ;-)

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Yep, I think lots of people (men and women, both!) look for ''easy". Some people don't look for easy, because they prefer to be challenged on an intellectual and emotional level.

I think this is often the case with those who are natural leaders/those who are naturally charismatic. My whole life, people have been supplicating to me -- I don't mean this in an arrogant way, I really don't! But it's true. People are attracted to me like moths to a flame and they listen to what I say and do what I want.

When I go for a man, I don't want yet another follower.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

When I go for a man, I don't want yet another follower.

OK this makes more sense to me. I am in NO WAY attracted to women that gather "followers", not to imply its a bad thing. I've worked for some, and found them to be really cool people, but I would NOT want to deal with them on a personal basis. Men and women like that tend to always be in the limelight to some extent, and I do NOT like being too close to that light. You have to at least not care about random attention to be with that type of person, and I'm not only NOT OK with it, I really don't like it and would not be happy paired with a person that generates it everywhere she goes.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yeah, honestly, I get this. My own mother hates being in public with me because she's super introverted and she hates the looks/attention/shit that I get everywhere I go. She's hated it since I was a teenager (that's a weird parent/child dynamic to have, hah!)

But seriously, there are so many people I could 'date' where it honestly wouldn't be an at all equal relationship. They're obsessed/infatuated and I'm coolly removed. The dynamic is not right. I need an equal -- someone who views me as a normal person. This tends to be a man who also has his own 'followers'.

[–]sardonis70NARPALT (Not All Red Pill are Like That [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The dynamic is not right. I need an equal -- someone who views me as a normal person. This tends to be a man who also has his own 'followers'.

I can understand that from your description. I don't necessarily thing you are abnormal, and truth be told we'd probably get along fine in a social context, but your candle burns far too brightly for my tastes when it comes down to the idea of a LTR. And no, I'm not intimidated by the light it shines, it just hurts my eyes a little bit, and makes it harder for me to hide in the shadows as usual. :P

Kinda funny about your mom, but I get it completely. How about this one: I played in gigging bar bands for years, most of the time as the singer. While performing, the "limelight" doesn't bother me in the least. However, I'd usually go backstage and hang out with the roadies while the rest of the band hit the bar. Why? Because people just WOULD NOT leave me alone when I'd venture into the crowd, and I wasn't there for the accolades and free beer. The last band was funny, because the drummer was just as introverted as me (and in fact another INTJ I know in meat space) so we'd BOTH hung out back stage or in the van between sets.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I am -- among many things -- an occasional jazz singer. I used to gig with my ex-fiancee a lot. I'm 'shy' -- so I was the same. I'd hide out backstage, I totally get that.

It's a bit weird as someone who's introverted -- the whole 'presence' thing. People love me/bother me all the time. I have a post-it note on my forehead that says, 'talk to me' and I honestly...find it annoying/bothersome? But I've learned to deal.

There's a huge contrast between me and my partner who is crazily extroverted and adores being in the limelight, haha. He's so beautifully open to other people -- I don't get it, but I love watching it.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Lies. Men want to date women who are easy for them. Playing hard to get doesn't make men more attracted to a specific girl. Hot girls can get away with playing hard to get, and thirsty men will hang around but high quality men will tell the girl to fuck off.

[–]lollygagyoVirginal Queen of Seduction [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm not talking about ''playing hard to get". I'm talking about partners being equal.

[–]DrunkGirl69chill pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

All the cool men I want to date have said they want a woman who challenges them. Sucks because I'm super easy to deal with.

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

Humans naturally overestimate themselves so the set of people who you feel are "on your level" are probably on average better than you.

[–]ProbablyBelievesIt [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Humans naturally overestimate themselves

Oh, please. There's plenty of people who underestimate themselves too. Stop spouting bedtime stories.

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

But on average people overestimate themselves.

Far more than 50% of people consider themselves above average https://priceonomics.com/why-do-we-all-think-were-above-average/ This shows that overestimation is more prevalent than underestimation.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Perhaps, but if I'm overestimating myself and he's overestimating himself (as you say, humans will do) than it ends up being closer to equal wouldn't you agree?

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

No. What would happen if you both overestimated yourselves and you saw him as your equal would be he would actually be smarter than you, you would see him as your equal and he would see you as inferior by an even greater margin than you are actually inferior.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Or vice versa. He wants his equal too (at least my man does).

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

He wants his equal too

Most men don't care. That was OPs point.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Mine does, so that's my point.

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Are least he says he does.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Ohhhh good one, he might be lying or unaware of what he wants after 12 years.

[–]super-commentingPurple Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Maybe not in your specific case but I'm quite sure there are men out there who let their women think that they love how smart and capable they are when in reality their main concern is that they're pretty and pleasant

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

For casual sex women select men who are superior to them

[–]Red-Frostraven[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

But if you could CHOOSE between a man who is superior to you in every way except appearance, and a man that is worse than you in every way except appearance...

Who would you choose? For men, there is no such choice, because the superior woman simply won't consider him.

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[–]TW_CountryMusicbluepill redneck [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

One time like three years ago a mutual friend said my boyfriend was "the funny one" in our relationship and TBH I'm still not over it.

[–]DrunkGirl69chill pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The guy being funny isn't as high on my checklist as him thinking that I'm funny. If he don't get my jokes this isn't gonna work out.

[–]anitapk [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I feel that since my father is very smart, strong and tall I'd be short selling myself if I didn't find someone who is at least like him. If he's as smart/tall/strong as me then he's not good as dad, he can't tell me about things I don't know on his job, he can't talk to me about his ambitions. I like stuff like that.

I don't know about looks, my man says he won but I doubt it.

I guess I'm the winning combination - ambitious for some traits and insecure for others (looks) which makes me not want to reach too high on looks alone (although my man is one of the most handsome ones to me on earth)

[–]rulenumber303 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Girls look for the best man they can get who is over their personal break-even point (the break even point is the point at which having the man in her life would inconvenience, distress and thwart her more than not having him in her life) plus if she is sensible and understands the essentially reactive and backsliding nature of men she includes a hefty safety margin to take account of the chance he's going to get fat, lazy and unmotivated once he's getting his dick wet regularly and thinks his girlfriend can't escape.

For some women the end result of this calculation is a man who is superior. For some it is a man who is roughly equal in value. For some it is a man who is a little lesser than her. And for increasingly many women, it is no man at all because modern men are increasingly addicted to porn and amusements such as gaming, which over time make them physically undeveloped, sexually dysfunctional and socially inept.

This is the bitter that the sweet sweet coating of anger and schadenfraude on TRP is designed to help you swallow. You done fucked up bad boy, you wasted your time because you didn't want to listen to your mother ("why don't you put down that Nintendo and get out in the sun?") your father ("boy do you ever stop wanking, your room smells like splooge all the time I can smell it in the hall ferchrissake") and your PE teacher ("looking after your body is important kid, pick your feet up when you run and try to enjoy it") and now you're half the man you could have been.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

For some women the end result of this calculation is a man who is superior. For some it is a man who is roughly equal in value. For some it is a man who is a little lesser than her. And for increasingly many women, it is no man at all because modern men are increasingly addicted to porn and amusements such as gaming, which over time make them physically undeveloped, sexually dysfunctional and socially inept.

What???? You are blaming young men because tis more fun to be ''addicted'' to porn and video games than it is to get rejected by women?

u done fucked up bad boy, you wasted your time because you didn't want to listen to your mother ("why don't you put down that Nintendo and get out in the sun?") your father ("boy do you ever stop wanking, your room smells like splooge all the time I can smell it in the hall ferchrissake") and your PE teacher ("looking after your body is important kid, pick your feet up when you run and try to enjoy it") and now you're half the man you could have been.

I love the nintendo wii U :)

[–]rulenumber303 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

What???? You are blaming young men because tis more fun to be ''addicted'' to porn and video games than it is to get rejected by women?

Nobody starts blaming them until they start whining they can't get champagne grade girls with the beer grade currency that is their personal worth after years of abusing themselves. Until then we just ignore them.

[–]OncleJulian [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

champagne grade girls?? you think that low quality women want low quality men? LOL I love the streaming app known as twitch and there are low quality girls there aswell as low quality guys and the chicks who are low quality only hit on hotter guys than them leaving their equals in the dust.

Just because a chick is low quality it doesn't mean she wants to fuck her equal, just as girls who are decent-looking are going to expect more from a potential fuck/boyfriend more than just '' decent''.

Women are hilarious. They're either complaining that guys are hitting on them(non-hot guys ofc) or they are complaining that guys are addicted to porn and would rather play video games than bother wasting them with them. Are men ever in the right?

[–]rulenumber303 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Just because a chick is low quality it doesn't mean she wants to fuck her equal,

Of course she doesn't. Fucking leads to relationships or at least guys pushing for relationships, and then she's got a guy hanging off her who is going to make her life worse. Usually those low value guys are still looking for a mother-figure to do everything for them and tantrum badly when that's not forthcoming. A steep price to pay for a little bit of cock, it is better to buy a hitachi magic wand for when orgasms are required, a few cats for when cuddles are required, and get on with the business of working to provide for herself.

There are men whose commitment has a negative value and they are oh so eager to push commitment on a woman, any woman... someone to fetch them food and clean up their neckbeard nest. Not getting called back after sex with a guy for whom you were a slumpbuster is better than having a low value guy in your life. That isn't because the guy has less value than the girl... it is because his value as a continuing intimate relationship is less than zero.

[–]Madness20who am i? I'm spiderman! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, just wanted to say that this is the truth.