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Change My View Thread (self.reddevils)

VallureHerrera が 投稿

Hi guys, this is the first Change My View thread. The point of this thread is to post a strong opinion you hold regarding anything United-related. Other people will try and challenge this opinion. Please make sure you actually explain yourself; don't just argue without evaluating what you mean. Unlike in the Unpopular Opinion thread, any opinion, no matter how popular is welcome here, so don't hold back.

EDIT: Please don't downvote opinions you disagree with, even if they seem ridiculous to you. The point of posts like this is not to weed out unpopular opinions through downvoting, but to encourage discussion.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]tocitusMemphis 13ポイント14ポイント  (11子コメント)

(Note, I'm aware this isn't exactly an unpopular opinion but I'd like someone to try to put forward an argument that changes my view)

Rooney isn't good enough anymore to be the focal point of creativity in this United team and random moments of brilliance are far outweighed by the damage done by keeping him in the team.

Edit: Just to clarify in case people were wondering, downvoting does not change my opinion.

[–]Launch_a_poo 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

A good return of work rate, leadership, goals, assists and key passes considerably outways the occasional dodgy touch and we'll win more matches because of it

[–]arron77 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He isn't the focal point of creativity though. Just playing in #10 doesn't directly correlate to that.

[–]craptionbot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here it goes...

I think you're all a bunch of bandwagon-hopping ballbags for giving Schweinsteiger the hate he is getting on here. Now, before you retort:

  • I agree, LVG was lenient on him with his injury recovery

  • I agree, his social media stream is a bit annoying and seems overly gushy about our club given the current circumstances with his be-so-nice-about-the-club-and-invoke-reverse-psychological-pressure-on-said-club

BUT - this time last year you and I were circlejerking over his transfer "Bastian FUCKING Schweinsteiger" was all over this sub. Pretty much everyone in agreement that it was a good deal, he had a lot of experience to offer our midfield, particularly in Europe, and we thought he performed solidly last season and played a surprising amount of games given his fitness - he definitely had something to offer our team.

This year, that area of our midfield is loaded, I get that. And it's fine Basti isn't in Mourinho's plans - but lads, show a bit of class and respect about the guy who genuinely wants to play for our club. Someone started the bandwagon of being brutally frank about his position and basically said it's completely fair to empty his locker and train away from the first team, and Basti shouldn't have an issue with it, and you lot took that bone and ran like fuck with it.

In short, it's fine that he is surplus requirements, but there's no need to be such a bag of dicks about it in the macho "I give no fucks" tone that we have collectively decided to speak in when talking about Bastian.

[–]liableAccountGiggs/Januzaj 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Memphis won't come good under Mou, and he will be shipped off after a poor season.

Let's be clear, I really like Memphis and I really want him to succeed. I just don't see it happening if I'm completely honest with myself. I'd like it to, so please, change my view!

[–]VallureHerrera[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree in terms of it being a possibility, but it's hard to judge right now. When he arrived last summer, so many of us said "give him a season to adjust". He had a really poor last season, to the point where I was surprised at how poor he was at times. I'm sure LVG's style of play contributed - hardly any of our offensive players thrived in his system.

I want to see him in action this season. I want to see promise. He's still very young, so I'm not expecting him to set the world alight, but he's certainly got a lot to prove. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, but last season definitely hasn't gone unnoticed - if he's poor again this season I would also expect him to be shipped off. Especially given the fact he now competes with Martial who was our best attacking player last season.

But still, he deserves a chance. He's now had a season to adjust to the Premier League and he definitely won't get a free pass this season. He's a talented player, who did well in the Eredivisie at such a young age (admittedly, a lot of attacking players do well there). He's now managed by someone who gives his players much more freedom, which is something he'll thrive off. Because of all these reasons, I expect him to have a much better season and I think it's still too early to say whether he'll do well or not.

[–]TrickyxoneCoppell 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

"He's now managed by someone who gives his players much more freedom" he's also managed by someone who expects his attacking players to defend, if he plays like he does last season Jose will be even harsher than LVG was with him, he'll be gone.

Btw I'm not writing him off, I saw Evras debut and remember SAF when he joined, I long ago learned not to write people off but being honest if he continues ignoring the defensive side of the game unless he gets to Hazard levels which even being optimistic I doubt then he'll be out.

[–]VallureHerrera[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I fully expect Memphis to follow Jose's instructions, even if that means putting in much more work towards defending. Jose is a great man-manager (at least in the first season) and has shown he can motivate what seem like the most arrogant players (Zlatan), so I don't think that will be a problem. Whether Memphis will carry out those orders well enough is a different matter, but it certainly won't be for the lack of trying.

[–]TrickyxoneCoppell 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If he does that's fine by me but lets not forget how strict a manager LVG was and also that LVG was his NT manager, if he couldn't get him to defend there's a chance no one can, personally I hope he does but unless Martial, Rashford and Lingard play badly over a decent length of time he doesn't deserve his chance yet, every one of those players has potential and they are all more than willing to do the dirty work.

[–]liableAccountGiggs/Januzaj 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My thoughts exactly on the LVG debacle. How much of his confidence was lost? If he is a confidence player then I'd expect him to do well under Mou as he gives his players as much as he can. As you say though, Martial will undoubtedly hold the LW position for most the season. It will be interesting to see if Memphis is played more regularly in the Europa League.

[–]LeorenthelaPogba 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

i feel that Real madrid buying spree while taking loans from the banks of spain is totally different then us using our money earned to buy players.

i also feel its totally different then the likes of chelsea and City who bring their money from a rich sugar daddy.

i think our buying power should be admired and not hated or categorized in the same bracket as PSG-city-Chelsea.

[–]kaoticreapzSchweinsteiger 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

Nobody hates our buying power, lol. They hate the club, the success and the fan following.

[–]LeorenthelaPogba 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

you should ask a tottenham fan, i live with a few, i get a lot of "united buying its success" talk.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

I wouldn't listen to Tottenham fans. Some I've spoke with think Dembele is the best midfielder in the world

[–]imamfmonster 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

To be fair, Kane always does miles better with Dembele in the side. He's nowhere near the best midfielder in the world but he is incredibly important to their side.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's not even a point you should even try to justify. Tottenham fans are quite deluded

[–]imamfmonster 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yes but you always get extreme fans who support every club. You don't think Manchester United fans haven't said their fair share of dumb shit? Don't get so worked up.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm not worked up you idiot.

I do invite you to talk to Tottenham fans and prepare to be baffled. You'd think they had won the league 10 years in a row, they're quite a bit more deluded in general than most fans I've spoke to

[–]imamfmonster 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well I've had quite the opposite experience then. I've always had a pleasant experience with most Spurs fans, I've never got the attitude that they've won the league ten times in a row.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Alright, don't get worked up about it fella.

You must be young or from the USA to not have had this experience then mate

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

This will just result in every comment getting downvoted, but anyways..

I think Schneiderlin is very average and is as much of a liability in possession as Fellaini is. He is fine at retrieving the ball but when in possession he's clueless, no vertical passing. Everything goes back to the centre halves and slows everything down. Almost certain Schneiderlin will get sold next summer to a French club like Monaco or something.

[–]frankowen18 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

He's barely played under Mourinho and everyone was like that under LvG, so singling him out for criticism is hardly fair. He was decent for Southampton at getting from box/box, way too quick to write him off for us.

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well if I didnt single him out I'd be naming 6/7 players which wouldnt be practical. I know he hasn't played yet under Mou but I've never been a fan even since his S'oton days. He's always been a destroyer, which is great for a club like Southampton but he doesnt have a wide enough skillset to thrive at a club like United IMO. Very limited technically.

[–]tocitusMemphis 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

To be fair we are talking about Schneiderlin under LVG.

Schneiderlin at Southampton was a different player - good in possession and a much less position ally disciplined player than he needed to be under LVG. LVG bought him and seemed to want to play him as this deep, defensive midfielder when that wasn't really his forte.

I don't think he is a great player and I am not sure if he is going to have a role at United but I also think in the right system he can work, as shown by him being one of the best midfielders in the prem at Southampton. Also this MNF analysis talks about Southampton but also mentions Schneiderlin a lot and his role in the team

Also it shouldn't result in every comment being downvoted, unless people are childish enough to just downvote things they don't agree with instead of trying to have a conversation

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes that's true Re S'oton days- he was deployed as an aggresive ball winner not limited to sitting deep like van Gaal had him. But even still I dont agree about him being good in possession. I have always found him rigid and stiff when dribbling and passing. Everything seems to laboured and robotic with him.

Yea maybe he could play a role like John Obi Mikel did at CFC; coming on late in games to close them out. And thanks for the link, I remember reading that, insightful but I'm not of the same opinion as that piece.

Yea that's the perfect scenario but not how this sub operates. Often dismissive to debate. Of course everyone prefers praising their own and lauding the club, but sometimes people border on the delusional.

[–]tocitusMemphis 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah I know what you mean. I don't understand how people can be object so much to good old fashioned debate, although I think here and /r/soccer are two subreddits populated by young people so maybe that is it.

Yeah Schneiderlin really grew into the role at Southampton when he was unshackled. He was always a good aggressive player and was always good at winning the ball back but once Wanyama shielded him and he was allowed to get forwards too, he had his best season.

Then he was brought into United and shackled again and I don't think he's good enough positionally to be a defensive midfielder (or rather a defensive midfielder as we think of it). Hopefully he'll grow into the role because he could be the perfect cover man for Pogba, he's tall, mobile, aggressive but also btter on the ball than people seem to give him credit for.

I think a lot of people think he's poor on the ball because he has often been played alongside Carrick and they ended up playing the same role. I remember in the derby last year he and Carrick were played as a double pivot and he was awful. He had no-one to release the ball to and, because they were both playing so deep metres away from one another, it meant the City midfield could push up high on them both and his passing was dreadful.

Then Herrera came on for Carrick and stretched the midfield, and I thought Schneiderlin was one of our best players in the second half and felt his passing improved so much (even pinging out passes to Mata on the right wing from the centre-circle).

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep probably the reason. It's a shame because it's also one of the primary reasons twitter has become toxic for discussions now too.

Koeman trusted him a lot and that shone through in his gameplay, he even bagged a few nice goals I believe (one being a beaut off his weak foot into the top corner).

He's definitely not a donkey, just feel his touch and vision are poor which causes him to panic a bit when he receives the ball. His touch can get away from him and then he has to chase it (sometimes into traffic) and play erratic passes.

Aye I remember that phase of games he played really well in. Namely City (second half), Everton away and then Moscow away. He dominated on those 3 occasions which was rare to see. But I found him on the whole really frustrating to watch, often refusing to move the ball on forward at pace and recycle it around the pitch back and forth back and forth. A lot of this was definitely van Gaal's set up, but even with the France NT I never seen him playing too many penetrating passes.

He can fulfill a role for sure, but if that means getting in the way of TFM, and even Pereira who can operate well from #8 or DM, I dont want him hanging around for too long.

[–]FraajWaste of money 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think this year is going to be crucial for him but wouldn't write him off just yet. He probably still needs some time to adjust to his slightly different role than he had in Saints.

On the other hand if Jose won't rate him then he's probably not good enough for a club like Manchester United.

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Certainly won't write him off as of such but I don't have many expectations for him this season. Maybe 15-20 appearances with many off the bench, barring Fellaini and Carrick getting injured simultaneously

[–]TimmyBashSchweinsteiger 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Martial should be rested and sporadically used for the rest of the season.

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Martial is the future of this club alongside Rashford and Shaw. Used sporadically? Are you joking? 99% of the time he is our main attacking threat. I can't understand why some reds hate the fact he takes risks and tries things.

[–]Rolling_TomassiShaw 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just seems like a ridiculous suggestion. Why, having had 4 average games (below his standard, but not bad) would you then sign him off for the whole season? I can understand wanting to bench him but your suggestion gives no possibility of him coming on as a sub in a few games' time, tearing it up and gaining his starting spot back.

[–]fmc96Fosu-Mensah 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, he wasn't even that bad. Every game he has been our first outlet for the counter attack which is the basis of Mou's system.

[–]TimmyBashSchweinsteiger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair call. Hard to argue against that. Opinion changed. Thread success!

[–]LeorenthelaPogba 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Although Martial looks not like his regular self, i feel that its less a resting problem, and more of "private life" and

"harder for him to adapt to the new way mou wants us to play after being LVG no.1 for the past season".

i think we should give him time and we'll benefit from him.

[–]kaoticreapzSchweinsteiger -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depends only if Memphis can perform well. Then there is no problem in using Martial less.

[–]Surfacing710Keane 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Signing Berbatov was a waste of £30 million that led to destabilising our fast counter attacking style of play with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez that won us the Champions League. Also ended up being one of the reasons that Tevez received less playing time and deciding that he wanted to move.

The vast majority of goals he scored was against those in the bottom half of the table. In 08/09, 6 of his 9 league goals were against those in the bottom half with 4 of those against teams that were relegated. 09/10, 10 of his 12 goals were against bottom half teams and the 2 top 10 goals were against Blackburn, 10th and Everton, 8th. 10/11, 15 of his 20 goals were against those in the bottom half.

He always has a massive fanfare around here and I generally don't get it, myself and anyone that I know never rated him as highly as he is here.

[–]arron77 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think he has the following because at the end of the day he was enjoyable to watch, Cantona-esque. Completely agree he killed our fast attack.

[–]seihandaShaw 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I may offer my opinion, I think Mou prefer Fellaini more than other CDM (not CM so Pogba excluded) such as Schneiderlin or Carrick.

Do you know when I'm sure Mou prefer Feilaini than Schneiderlin or Carrick? At bournmouth game. Not because he played so well but because Mou doesn't drop him after that backpass to Vardy before.

Argument about he played because we need height appeared at that time and yet Mou still play him with another tall player, Pogba.

So I think Mou realy value Fellaini. But why?

Yes I knew we love to hate the tree. He play so harsh, less skilled, and not beautiful. Obviously not a fan favourite. But that remind me of what my PE teacher slash football coach told me. He love that kind of player. Not the "not beautiful" part but the mentality to win at all cost. Even if that means to play an ugly harsh footbal in fans eyes. He'll do anything to get the job done even if he receive more hate from it.

Felliani struck me as that kind of player, for short : "a manager favourite"

To prove it, so far 3 managers want to keep him even when fans want him out. I'm sure they can see that value in Fellaini that we fans can't. Well I know it's not popular opinion here but I'm sure Mou realy like Fellaini for now.

Or i might be wrong. Who know?

[–]Flick_My_Bean_Geoff 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jonny Evans shouldn't have been sold.

[–]David_43Smalling -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Shaw really hasn't been that great since he came back from injury. The biggest problem I have is with his attacking input: his runs aren't great and he almost always crosses poorly. Not to say he won't improve, but in my mind he is one of our most underperforming players currently.

[–]SZamanC#21 Status - Loading... 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly thought Shaw has been solid for us. Under Mou's system, Tony V has been getting a lot more touches (I think there was a video analysis of this on the sub). Mou likes attacking fullbacks but when Tony V is getting the ball so much its hard for him to have as great am "attacking input". Defensively he's been classy and composed and I think he's picked up from his injury pretty well. Obviously he's probably a little hesitant in attacking after the injury but slowly he'll regain the confidence.

[–]WHiTeCHIICK 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm sorry but this is just dumb

[–]RicciRox 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's true tho. And aren't you supposed to try to change his view?

Shaw has been solid, but he's nowhere near the level he was at before his injury. Not a bad thing, he'll get there with time, but let's not pretend.

[–]fakeplasticairbagKeane 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

His level before the injury was mostly what he's doing now though, his whole first season was similar to this.

It's only those 4-5 games at the beginning of last season where he hit a level above solid and reliable

[–]Surfacing710Keane 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He has just returned from a major injury that in the past, could have been career threatening and missed about 11 months of first team football so he is bound to need a few months to get back into the swing of things to get back to his best.

He has also only just started his partnership with Martial down the left wing, another young player and they're working on how to play together which will only come with time and experience. They're still at the teething stage where they are trying to get know how to link up. His forward runs should improve with this understanding and for his crosses, they are a matter of practice. For example, Valencia is getting back to decent crosses and further back, Neville became a great crosser of the ball over the course of his career.