Why are American men generally more manly than European men?

[davidborts]

Now before the Europeans on this board get offended, I don't mean that Europeans are unmanly or that somehow they lack testosterone. I'm simply pointing out the obviously greater importance to "manly" things and behavior in America, from clothes to cars. For example:

• European men dress much more flamboyant and feminine. Something that would be considered stylish for a man to wear in Europe would often be considered "gay" in America. From capris for men to tighter shirts and pants and those girly Puma shoes, Europeans don't look as manly as American in fashion. Americans prefer loose jeans and big shirts and big masculine looking shoes.
  
• Europeans drink wine and eat salads and healthy paninis in small portions. Americans drink beer and eat red meat and chilli in huge hearty and masculine portions.
  
• Europeans like soccer, which is considered a girls sport in America. Americans like masculine sports like football, baseball and basketball, which are not considered girls sport in Europe. Most soccer players would likely get beat up by the average NFL player in a fight, the average NFL player is 6'2 and 240lbs. The average soccer player is 5'10 and 170lbs.
  
• The prototypical European car is a small little cutesy car while a prototypical American car is a big masculine Ford F150.
  
• America respects the cowboys, the lone ranger, the rugged individualist who uses his guns to dominate the opposition and rule over his domain. Europe respects the socialite intellectual, who uses words and social connections to make his mark.
  
• American men love guns. Most European men don't even know how to use guns.
  
  ..etc

Why did one place obtain such a more masculine culture?

[Great Antibob]

Originally Posted by davidborts

Why did one place obtain such a more masculine culture?

Things that are "manly" are defined by the individual culture. They certainly aren't universal.

Or else Spartans would consider Americans effeminate for now putting all our men into the military from birth. Or Americans consider Spartans effeminate for sexual relationships between men and boys. Or the Romans for being wine drinkers. Or Eastern Europeans should think Americans less masculine for not binging on tons of hard vodka.

Seems like you're taking the current American notions of manliness and trying to claim they are in any way, shape, or form universal. Any reason for that?

[scr4]

Because you're judging both based on an American view of what is "manly".

[miss elizabeth]

There is no objective standard for "masculinity". It doesn't exist outside of cultural constructs. Those things are part of what American culture has coded as manly, and they arose for various reasons (Americans often have bigger cars because we have a lot of open space left to build giant parking lots, for example).

[scr4]

p.s. I think all the things listed by the OP would be considered childish and immature behavior by many Europeans. Yes, including American Football ("a real man wouldn't use helmet and padding to play rugby").

[Dynastia]

Because of the history and culture of the frontier ; rugged individualists carving out a life for themselves in a harsh, inhospitable place. Compare Americans to other colonial cultures, like Brazilians, Australians or Afrikaners, and you'll see a pretty similar level of importance placed on manliness and machismo. Compare them to Europe's frontiersmen (ie. the Cossacks), and Americans are suddenly the little girlymen in comparison.

[pkbites]

Originally Posted by davidborts

[*]European men dress much more flamboyant and feminine. Something that would be considered stylish for a man to wear in Europe would often be considered "gay" in America. From capris for men to tighter shirts and pants and those girly Puma shoes, Europeans don't look as manly as American in fashion. Americans prefer loose jeans and big shirts and big masculine looking shoes.

No kidding. I've been to Italy a couple of times and nothing looks [rhymes with baggier] than a guy with dress slacks cranked up his ass. Many of them walked like they had a butt-plug jammed up there.

[Great Antibob]

I'll add that James Bond in his Aston Martin is probably considered a heck of a lot more masculine than most other men in big 60s American muscle cars. And he preferred his (quite frankly) rinky-dink Walther to a real gun. Also, I don't recall 007 drinking much beer, wearing jeans, eating big steaks or chili, either, but somehow nobody questions his absolute masculinity.

Seems like you want to say that the stereotypical American notion of masculinity is based on boorishness and aggression, and this is somehow a good thing.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Your "facts" are unbelievably silly. They sound like a parody of American stereotypes about Americans and Europeans.

Every culture has tendency to think in stereotypes and exaggerations. That doesn't mean that you can use them for comparisons in reality. Europe isn't even a single culture. The inhabitants of the 50 countries in Europe would be part astonished and part disgusted that you could think of them as one single group.

[Rhythmdvl]

I hear there's a whole country full of men who speak French?!

What bar-goin', beer-swillin', pickemup-drivin' manly-man would admit to speaking French?!

[HoneyBadgerDC]

Since when is soccer considered girly? Most guys I know admire soccer players for thier athletisism.

[madsircool]

Well, we do have to save them from themselves every once in a while...not sure if that makes us manlier than they are.

[madsircool]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerDC

Since when is soccer considered girly? Most guys I know admire soccer players for thier athletisism.

Totally agree there. Most NFL players couldnt physically do what a soccer plater does. They would have to play both ways and eliminate commercial breaks and time outs. The fatties in the NFL would be cardiacing out after 10 minutes.

[Ximenean]

Originally Posted by davidborts

the average NFL player is 6'2 and 240lbs. The average soccer player is 5'10 and 170lbs.

Nonsense. Soccer players are metric, being gay-ass Europeans, so their average height is 178 centimetres or whatever the fuck they use over there.

(actually, that's pretty short for a professional soccer player - the true average is probably around six foot)

[Baron Greenback]

I sense a bit of a theme from the OP

[Anaamika]

Maybe European men are just more confident in their masculinity and don't have to show it in every thing they do. Which is arguably more attractive.

[Colibri]

I think this is better suited to IMHO than GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by madsircool

Well, we do have to save them from themselves every once in a while...not sure if that makes us manlier than they are.

"We" do, huh?

Hey, where did you fight during WWII? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

This OP makes me wish I lived in Europe instead of the U.S.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by pkbites

No kidding. I've been to Italy a couple of times and nothing looks [rhymes with baggier] than a guy with dress slacks cranked up his ass. Many of them walked like they had a butt-plug jammed up there.

I wonder what they thought of the obese tourist in a sleeveless t-shirt and with Yosemite Sam tattoos showing. My guess? Rhymes with "bright brash"......

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

Every one of these points could be flipped on its head.

*Why do American men dress like toddlers, in t-shirts, baggy shorts and sneakers? Why can't they dress like grown men? Americans are so uncomfortable dressing like men that they invented "Casual Friday" to avoid it.

*Why do American men favor sugary drinks, like adolescents do? Why do so many drink watered down "coffee" instead of a manly espresso like Italians do?

*You know what's a manly sport - bullfighting. But it has never and will never take off in America because America is a sissified culture.

*Americans drive tank-like vehicles because they're pussies who want to be protected at all costs from any chance of getting hurt in a minor traffic accident.

*Americans cower individually in their protective homes, too scared and immature to band together and form strong social movements.

*Americans cling to their guns because they're wusses who can't solve their disputes man-to-man.

[Lust4Life]

I think that the op.s totally right, speaking as a Brit we all of us look up to the Americans as being the epitome of rough, tough masculinity.

And as you say, Americans respect cowboys, also I believe Red Indians, motorcycle cops, leather fetishists and construction workers !

If ever you're visiting Europe do help us out by going into a Brit, or an Irish pub and helping us "up" our masculine image.

I'm sure you'll be warmly received .

[AK84]

OP, please ask this question of a few French rugby forwards. A Glaswegian. A mafia man. A Russian or Swede ice hockey player. A rural Finn.

[chewsick]

All the "European" (whatever that means) stereotypes could be applied to US hipsters or whatever they call themselves.

I think they are pretty stupid myself -- regardless of who is wearing the tight pants and mincing around -- but don't kid yourself that there are a lot of Western Europeans with a military background who will definitely kick some ass.

+1 to soccer -- I don't know anyone except chicks who thinks soccer players are any kind of exemplar of athleticism. Nor are NFL players. I'd put an Irish rugby player up against anyone (or an Ivan Drago hockey player, for that matter). Even the Irish jockeys are pretty nasty little creatures -- I wouldn't want to mess with anyone involved.

Speaking as a pretty macho American with pretty wimpy tastes in music and literature (French impressionist music and poetry) and food, but I feel right at home anywhere in the country in France, without having to mince around trying to "pass" for a "European" -- these guys fucking butcher hogs for sport and drink their blood and the women bring the men wine, and they don't drink it out of teacups either.

[MeanOldLady]

I love this OP. Particularly this:

Originally Posted by davidborts

Europeans drink wine and eat salads and healthy paninis in small portions.

and this:

Europeans like soccer, which is considered a girls sport in America.

[actualliberalnotoneofthose]

I think soccer is mostly ignored in America. I do feel that's changing, at least as far as being a casual fan goes. It seems to be a niche occupied by a certain band of people, though. I've never associated it with girls, though.

[tbook]

John Wayne:

"I made up my mind that I was going to play a real man to the best of my ability. I felt many of the Western stars of the twenties and thirties were too goddamn perfect. They never drank or smoked. They never wanted to go to bed with a beautiful girl. They never had a fight. A heavy might throw a chair at them, and they just looked surprised and didn't fight in this spirit. They were too goddamn sweet and pure to be dirty fighters. Well, I wanted to be a dirty fighter if that was the only way to fight back. If someone throws a chair at you, hell, you pick up a chair and belt him right back. I was trying to play a man who gets dirty, who sweats sometimes, who enjoys kissing a gal he likes, who gets angry, who fights clean whenever possible but will fight dirty if he has to. You could say I made the Western hero a roughneck."

[chewsick]

Originally Posted by MeanOldLady

I love this OP.

Well, I don't, because the OP's statement could easily be turned on its head to say "why are European women more feminine and pretty without sacrifice of intellectual rigor?" Than their American counterparts, who, to my view, are bullish, pig-headed, and more concerned with appearances than embracing their femininity.

[Simplicio]

European men dress much more flamboyant and feminine. Something that would be considered stylish for a man to wear in Europe would often be considered "gay" in America. From capris for men to tighter shirts and pants and those girly Puma shoes, Europeans don't look as manly as American in fashion. Americans prefer loose jeans and big shirts and big masculine looking shoes.

"Big masculine shoes"?

Europeans drink wine and eat salads and healthy paninis in small portions. Americans drink beer and eat red meat and chilli in huge hearty and masculine portions.

There are 9 European countries with beer consumption rates higher then the US. The Czech republic has almost twice the consumption rate of the US. I'm pretty sure Americans eat salad.

America respects the cowboys, the lone ranger, the rugged individualist who uses his guns to dominate the opposition and rule over his domain. Europe respects the socialite intellectual, who uses words and social connections to make his mark.

Most of the best cowboy movies were made by Italians.

[*]American men love guns. Most European men don't even know how to use guns.

Switzarland has a higher gun ownership rate then the US.

[davidborts]

Originally Posted by chewsick

+1 to soccer -- I don't know anyone except chicks who thinks soccer players are any kind of exemplar of athleticism. Nor are NFL players. I'd put an Irish rugby player up against anyone (or an Ivan Drago hockey player, for that matter). Even the Irish jockeys are pretty nasty little creatures -- I wouldn't want to mess with anyone involved.

Speaking as a pretty macho American with pretty wimpy tastes in music and literature (French impressionist music and poetry) and food, but I feel right at home anywhere in the country in France, without having to mince around trying to "pass" for a "European" -- these guys fucking butcher hogs for sport and drink their blood and the women bring the men wine, and they don't drink it out of teacups either.

Jealous Amerifat detected

[RobDog]

The more I read the OP, the less sure I am of what side of the fence he's on.

[chewsick]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

"Big masculine shoes"?

Yeah, exactly. I don't know what these famous "Puma shoes" are, but French police agents humbled me a few times precisely because of their immaculate, tough boots. I'm not talking about skinheads -- these cats had a lot more invested in their shoes than I had in my hair, teeth, and glasses combined at all moments.

As though Americans aren't fond of their basketball shoes. Just ask Fletch.

[Novelty Bobble]

I don't know about any other europeans on here but I want some masculine shoes. Big ones no less.
I now realise that mine are somehow effeminate and more than a little gay, shame on me.

To the OP, how big do my big shoes have to be? do I just need to increase the heel height or do I need to buy a pair three or four sizes too big? Should there be a weapon concealed within?

This is all very confusing to me. I thought I was a man. I thought that soccer was a manly sport. That time that I was booted full in the face by my team-mate and broke my nose but played for the rest of the game. Or when I broke my radius and ulna and completed the next 80 minutes of play. Or when I dislocated my elbow and collarbone and played on. I mean, I felt compelled to play on because all my sporting life I've been around europeans that played on in exactly those circumstances and worse so I just thought that was common practice.

I see I was wrong . Next time I play I'm going to shoot myself in my kneecap before kick-off just so that I earn my man-wings. At least I would shoot myself but I haven't got a gun. I am such a fucking wuss.

[Baron Greenback]

Originally Posted by RobDog

The more I read the OP, the less sure I am of what side of the fence he's on.

Me too. He reminds me of another poster, sadly no longer of this parish, who posted threads on similar themes, but this is a bit of a twist on that approach.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

I think that the op.s totally right, speaking as a Brit we all of us look up to the Americans as being the epitome of rough, tough masculinity.

'And that's just their women!'

*rimshot*

[RobDog]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

I don't know about any other europeans on here but I want some masculine shoes. Big ones no less.
I now realise that mine are somehow effeminate and more than a little gay, shame on me.

To the OP, how big do my big shoes have to be? do I just need to increase the heel height or do I need to buy a pair three or four sizes too big? Should there be a weapon concealed within?

This is all very confusing to me. I thought I was a man. I thought that soccer was a manly sport. That time that I was booted full in the face by my team-mate and broke my nose but played for the rest of the game. Or when I broke my radius and ulna and completed the next 80 minutes of play. Or when I dislocated my elbow and collarbone and played on. I mean, I felt compelled to play on because all my sporting life I've been around europeans that played on in exactly those circumstances and worse so I just thought that was common practice.

I see I was wrong . Next time I play I'm going to shoot myself in my kneecap before kick-off just so that I earn my man-wings. At least I would shoot myself but I haven't got a gun. I am such a fucking wuss.

Well you're no Bert Trautmann.

[Teuton]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

That time that I was booted full in the face by my team-mate and broke my nose but played for the rest of the game. Or when I broke my radius and ulna and completed the next 80 minutes of play. Or when I dislocated my elbow and collarbone and played on.

Have you considered playing with people who like you more?

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Switzarland has a higher gun ownership rate then the US.

You mean because all Swiss men are part of the armed forces and are required to own their own guns and ammo? But that aside, they don't drive Hummers or giant pickups with a kid pissing on the brand they don't like, which is what real men do.

[Baron Greenback]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

This is all very confusing to me. I thought I was a man. I thought that soccer was a manly sport. That time that I was booted full in the face by my team-mate and broke my nose but played for the rest of the game. Or when I broke my radius and ulna and completed the next 80 minutes of play. Or when I dislocated my elbow and collarbone and played on. I mean, I felt compelled to play on because all my sporting life I've been around europeans that played on in exactly those circumstances and worse so I just thought that was common practice.

I've played Sunday league too man. (((my broken ribs)))

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by davidborts

[*]Europeans drink wine and eat salads and healthy paninis in small portions.

Hell boy, after you git done with that there appetizer, come on over and we'll barbecue a whole steer. Shot it dead and drug it home with mah F-150.

What a collection of stereotypes, sheesh.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Great Antibob

I'll add that James Bond in his Aston Martin is probably considered a heck of a lot more masculine than most other men in big 60s American muscle cars. And he preferred his (quite frankly) rinky-dink Walther to a real gun. Also, I don't recall 007 drinking much beer, wearing jeans, eating big steaks or chili, either, but somehow nobody questions his absolute masculinity.

Yeah, but the big-screen action movies these days are All-American superhero movies: we want to see a growling Christian Bale slug it out with a brawny Tom Hardy, or a bare-chested Henry Cavill showing off his six-pack and wrapping guys up in choke-holds. Idris Elba! Michael Fassbender! Manly men!

[DeweyDecibel]

There's this perception that men have to behave in the way you outlined in order to be considered "real men". It's cultural. Men who naturally have these interests/styles are encouraged to express it fully, men who do not are encouraged to act more in line with the stereotype.

Now on to my own generalizations...this seems to be partly generational - more common among older men (lets say 50+). Probably just more culturally emphasized as they were growing up than it is now.

Also partly class-based. Working class men often rely on "many" attributes for a living (building things, fixing things, using physical strength) so this style of masculinity is more valued. White-collar or professional men often rely on other types of skills for their livelihood so being stereotypically manly isn't as important. Of course, generalizations, all individuals are different yadda yadda, but I do think there is a broad generational and class correlation.

As a straight woman in her early 30s, I can tell you that much of what you listed as "manly" is a turn-off for me as well as many of my contemporaries. Guns? Not happening. Ugly white tennis shoes and baggy t-shirts? Not interested. Drive a big truck by choice (not necessary for work or some odd financial situation)? No. Sports don't matter either way. Beer and red meat are fine, but if a guy won't eat anything lighter or more interesting, then no. And I need to have real, deep conversations with him, so no strong silent types. Honestly, I love a man in a nicely fitting (not necessarily tight) pink shirt. I don't know enough Europeans to say if this applies to them, but I've known plenty of American men who aren't manly-by-this-definition and most don't seem to feel any pressure to buy a truck and go hunting.

[An Gadaí]

Not all Europeans are Italian. Sheesh.

[Mr. Kobayashi]

Well, traditionally in Europe we liked attempting to fight each other to extinction roughly once every generation - or more than that, if we're feeling frisky. However then some failed Austrian artist ruined everyone's fun, so we've had roughly sixty years of solid peace between Europe's major powers (except in the Balkans, where tiny genetic differences really fucking matters).

As everyone knows, there's nothing less manly than peace and pacifists. Americans of course haven't yet got tired of a good ruck, so that explains it.

[Bozuit]

Well OP is banned, unsurprisingly.

For anyone not aware, sparking "US v Europe" arguments is trolling 101.

[Gatopescado]

Fuck the Ford F-150!

I drive an F-250!

(and a Fiat)

[The Great Sun Jester]

Originally Posted by Great Antibob

I'll add that James Bond ... preferred his (quite frankly) rinky-dink Walther to a real gun.

Save me from myself--It has to have been in one of the first 3 films where he gets chewed out by M for some infraction regard the Walther. He was either carrying it instead of the standard issue, or was carrying something else instead of the required Walther. Which was it? Guess I know which box set I'm watching this weekend.

I DO know he was NOT packing, nor was he expected to, an übermanly .44 6-banger. So clearly his penis was large.

[Mr. Kobayashi]

Originally Posted by The Great Sun Jester

Save me from myself--It has to have been in one of the first 3 films where he gets chewed out by M for some infraction regard the Walther. He was either carrying it instead of the standard issue, or was carrying something else instead of the required Walther. Which was it? Guess I know which box set I'm watching this weekend.

I DO know he was NOT packing, nor was he expected to, an übermanly .44 6-banger. So clearly his penis was large.

Not thinking of the scene in Dr. No are you, he hands a Beretta M1934 to Q and is forced to use instead the Walther PPK (later his standard)?

[The Great Sun Jester]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi

Wasn't in Dr. No, he hands a Beretta M1934 to Q and is forced to use instead the Walther PPK (later his standard)?

That's exactly the scene. Thank you. It still warms my heart he prefers accuracy over stopping power--one good small hit being better than a bunch of big misses.

Of course, he also hits a bunch of misses as a matter of course. * rim shot *

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by The Great Sun Jester

Save me from myself--It has to have been in one of the first 3 films where he gets chewed out by M for some infraction regard the Walther. He was either carrying it instead of the standard issue, or was carrying something else instead of the required Walther. Which was it? Guess I know which box set I'm watching this weekend.

I DO know he was NOT packing, nor was he expected to, an übermanly .44 6-banger. So clearly his penis was large.

I'm pretty sure in one of the books (ask a European what 'books' are, if you're American), there's a scene where Q and M make him upgrade to a sidearm with more stopping power.